The Lycoris source-code saga doesn’t seem to want to die, but hopefully the following article will kill this already dead horse. “Parties on both sides of the Lycoris source code controversy stepped up to clarify the issues raised in a LXer article published on Wednesday. Both sides took issue with some of the statements in the article. The controversy came to light as a report on OSNews.com, and the ensuing discussion left questions in many users’ minds as to whether the code in question would, in fact, be released.”
Joe Cheek hasn’t released the source code in all these years because he’s hiding something. And he won’t be releasing the code until he’s cleaned up whatever bits he’s nervous about. Seriously, the guy is one shady dude. I’ve dealt with him, and he always struck me as Bill Gates, born in the wrong decade.
Sheesh! Calm down.
Evidently the people that get most fired up are the ones that know the least.
*Anyone* that’s been around Lycoris for more than a few months knows that Lycoris used to distribute 3 CDs for free: 1) the normal Lycoris CD, 2) the infamous Dev Tools, and 3) the source code.
It was only in the last couple of releases that Lycoris only distributed the first CD for free. The freely available CD now was the same as the one you bought, except that it had a wallpaper that said “Trial Edition”, didn’t have some third party closed apps, and didn’t have access to the Iris repository. And the support, of course.
From then on, Lycoris included the other two CDs (INCLUDING THE ONE WITH SOURCE CODE) in the full boxed set, as an incentive to people who were more hardcore and were into building stuff from source (instead from the repository), and those who might have really done something useful with the source code.
*I REPEAT, THE SOURCE CODE HAS ALWAYS BEEN AVAILABLE*
The difference is that in the later releases they pitched it more as a tool for more advanced users, instead of giving it away to evevery newbie who just wanted to check out Lycoris.
And it makes sense, if you think about it. Lycoris was a distribution aimed at Linux newcomers (or mom and pop shops), so most newbies wouldn’t have much use for the source code, asides from being confused about the extra CD download.
As far as I remember, you could always request just the source code, and Lycoris would send it to you at a nominal charge (JUST LIKE THE GPL ALLOWS).
Imagine if Ubuntu would advertise its distro as 2 CDs, one being the normal one they distribute now, and the other one being source code. Sure, it would be “purer” than it is now, because it would completely “comply” with the GPL.
But it’d be more troublesome than it is now. More waste of bandwith for the great majority of people for whom it won’t be as useful as the hardcore minority.
MEPIS, Mandrake, and most distros that aim for the desktop nowadays take the same strategy. Heck, that’s one of the reasons why it’s called SimplyMEPIS now. Sure, they probably have the source code available on some server, but it’s their choice if they want to waste money on precious bandwith for something that could very well be delivered postal on request.
Again, and it’s been said many many times, the reason why the _latest_ source code for Lycoris hasn’t been released is because it seems that the only person that was left at the company is currently moving from one country to another.
Darn, if you’re so desperate for the source code, I’m sure one of the persons who bought the latest boxed set of DL/X and got the source code, could be able to put it up for you in his own personal server. Well, that is, if he has a kind enough soul to give away bandwith for free to whiners like you.
I have an earlier disc with the source code for Lycoris, if you think it’s so precious to have one of those KDE 2.2 customized source lines. But I heck ain’t wasting my money on my server bandwith for a nagger like you. If you want it, I can send it to you for the cost of a CD-R here, and the cost of the mailing. (No I’m not a millionaire like the Ubuntu guy to suck up the costs I incurr). Take into account that I live outside the United States, so the costs can get quite heftly.
What’s the line you people love to use? RTFM? I guess in this case it’d be something like “Research your F..ine Story”.
– gatolas
“Evidently the people that get most fired up are the ones that know the least. ”
Yes , >> you << …
“1) the normal Lycoris CD, 2) the infamous Dev Tools, and 3) the source code. ”
So you got IRIS latest source code and you got Lycoris entire software source code ?
Well idiot give your Name and adress and sell them by snail mail , 100$ or more a pop.
I for one would be really glad to send all those asking for it to you …
Hey Mandriva employee – gatolas as the source code send him a ring and have him sent you copy COD overnight.
“So you got IRIS latest source code and you got Lycoris entire software source code ?”
As far as I know, IRIS was not open source, just like Linspire CNR and those others.
So no, I don’t have the source code for that.
However, I do have the 3 CDs (binaries, development tools and source code) for Lycoris build 46, and if you want, I can also send you the 3 CDs for build 53, but take note those later 3 are for the spanish version of Lycoris.
Please take into account they are from October 2002, because I didn’t keep updating myself all the time, I was not a frenzied Lycoris upgrader. But hey, be my guest.
In fact, right now I’m feeling nice, so I’ll burn you copies of not only the source code discs, I’ll also give you copies of the other 4 discs, and I will pony up the cost.
Post your mailing address, wait 6-8 weeks for delivery, and then you’re free to distribute that to all the people that you want. I’m glad you’re so generous.
If you do want it overnight, then I will have to accept your money proposal, because it’s about $50 to send it from here. Don’t worry, keep the other $50. Again, the cost of the discs is on me.
By the way, I got those CDs without signing any contract or Non-Disclosure Agreement. All I did was plug my downloader software into the servers at the appropriate time. They didn’t even request a login password!
Cheers.
– gatolas
“IRIS was not open source, just like Linspire CNR and those others”
No , NO , NOOOO , that cant be , people all say I lie about that part !! ( BTW I know ).
“I do have the … the spanish version of Lycoris. ”
I think I do to , but thats not what people are asking for , they whant the things nobody had because it whas closed and under NDA. I aint the one asking for it either , but hey , I tried the nice explanation did not work , I whent to Rant and yell mode.
“In fact, right now I’m feeling nice, so I’ll burn you copies you’re so generous. ”
Like I said aint the one interested , provide a working email , I will see that people get in touch with you. http://lxer.com/ people seem to be the ones loking for it too.
“All I did was plug my downloader software into the servers at the appropriate time. ”
The problem is not you OR you getting it or I doing the same , the problem is that source code from a distribution should always be availaible to at least its users and entirely.
Sorry I insulted you , thanks for the offer.
Sheesh! Calm down.
Evidently the people that get most fired up are the ones that know the least.
*Anyone* that’s been around Lycoris for more than a few months knows that Lycoris used to distribute 3 CDs for free: 1) the normal Lycoris CD, 2) the infamous Dev Tools, and 3) the source code.
It was only in the last couple of releases that Lycoris only distributed the first CD for free. The freely available CD now was the same as the one you bought, except that it had a wallpaper that said “Trial Edition”, didn’t have some third party closed apps, and didn’t have access to the Iris repository. And the support, of course.
From then on, Lycoris included the other two CDs (INCLUDING THE ONE WITH SOURCE CODE) in the full boxed set, as an incentive to people who were more hardcore and were into building stuff from source (instead from the repository), and those who might have really done something useful with the source code.
*I REPEAT, THE SOURCE CODE HAS ALWAYS BEEN AVAILABLE*
The difference is that in the later releases they pitched it more as a tool for more advanced users, instead of giving it away to evevery newbie who just wanted to check out Lycoris.
And it makes sense, if you think about it. Lycoris was a distribution aimed at Linux newcomers (or mom and pop shops), so most newbies wouldn’t have much use for the source code, asides from being confused about the extra CD download.
As far as I remember, you could always request just the source code, and Lycoris would send it to you at a nominal charge (JUST LIKE THE GPL ALLOWS).
Imagine if Ubuntu would advertise its distro as 2 CDs, one being the normal one they distribute now, and the other one being source code. Sure, it would be “purer” than it is now, because it would completely “comply” with the GPL.
But it’d be more troublesome than it is now. More waste of bandwith for the great majority of people for whom it won’t be as useful as the hardcore minority.
MEPIS, Mandrake, and most distros that aim for the desktop nowadays take the same strategy. Heck, that’s one of the reasons why it’s called SimplyMEPIS now. Sure, they probably have the source code available on some server, but it’s their choice if they want to waste money on precious bandwith for something that could very well be delivered postal on request.
Again, and it’s been said many many times, the reason why the _latest_ source code for Lycoris hasn’t been released is because it seems that the only person that was left at the company is currently moving from one country to another.
Darn, if you’re so desperate for the source code, I’m sure one of the persons who bought the latest boxed set of DL/X and got the source code, could be able to put it up for you in his own personal server. Well, that is, if he has a kind enough soul to give away bandwith for free to whiners like you.
I have an earlier disc with the source code for Lycoris, if you think it’s so precious to have one of those KDE 2.2 customized source lines. But I heck ain’t wasting my money on my server bandwith for a nagger like you. If you want it, I can send it to you for the cost of a CD-R here, and the cost of the mailing. (No I’m not a millionaire like the Ubuntu guy to suck up the costs I incurr). Take into account that I live outside the United States, so the costs can get quite heftly.
What’s the line you people love to use? RTFM? I guess in this case it’d be something like “Research your F..ine Story”.
– gatolas
As I understand it, the source code included in Lycoris releases was not complete. This doesn’t seem to be disputed by anyone. Rus and others believe that some of the components of Lycoris for which no source was distributed should come under the GPL and the source for them should therefore be made available. I believe Joe is on public record asking for clarification on exactly what they believe needs to be opened (I have some private internal mails in which Joe asks Rus for clarification, but I don’t want to reprint those). As far as the rest of Mandriva is concerned, we’ll take a look at the source as soon as we can get it and release whatever is necessary to be in compliance with all licenses.
“Joe Cheek hasn’t released the source code in all these years ”
Because of the mentality of the : I dont care about the source only zealot whant the source , thats a full text book example of why the source mathers , like Stormix and corel and etc … where not enough.
“because he’s hiding something.”
Of course , in the comment on is source code he wrote : “I wish I worked at mandriva there user pay for the software.”
“And he won’t be releasing the code until he’s cleaned up whatever bits he’s nervous about.”
Or its simply in transit , and there not on next day delivery …
“Seriously, the guy is one shady dude.”
No shit : Anonymous !!!
” I’ve dealt with him”
Good job he is still alive …
“and he always struck me as Bill Gates”
Youve never met Bill Gates.
“born in the wrong decade.”
Microsoft been around for 30 years …
The question that come up from this is :
– Who is doing the same : Linspire , Xandros , etc …
– Who else dont release all there source ? Why arent there users not asking for them its GNU/Linux after all.
People on Debian Core , Mandriva and Gentoo have it good.
“- Who is doing the same : Linspire , Xandros , etc … ”
I’m pretty sure these companies release the source for all the software they have to (for example, GPLed software).
“I’m pretty sure these companies release the source for all the software they have to”
And you would be absolutely wrong , if we take whats similar to Iris :
Linspire CNR ?
Xandros Networks ?
Feel free to show the source code that the normal customer as and wich is Open Source.
Standard answer from them is :
Go away , Sign our NDA , Join our Developpers , your a zealot thats hwy you whant the source , no one else would know what to do with it.
But as I always say dont believe me at all verify by yourself.
I don’t think you understand the GPL.
If you modify a GPLed software and distribute it to someone (by selling it, for example) then you must make the changes available to them, if they request.
You do not have to make the source available on a public FTP server, and you do not have to make it available to everyone who asks; you just have to make it available to the people you’re distributing the software to.
I know you dont know what your talking about at all.
Start by learning the basics and not use some parts when it serve you :
http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html
“If you modify a GPLed software and distribute it to someone”
Then someone as a copy that he could modify , who can use it and share it with others , thats one of the problem that Lycoris had , the non inclusion of all the source code of all the software.
This means in clear that ALL Lycoris employee and Developper cannot use any GPL software at all as they have removed basic freedom right of others and broken there contract with the GPL wich by doing so remove them the right to use all GPL software legally.
“You do not have to make the source available on a public FTP server”
That one you would be somewhat right , its not written but its in the spirit of GNU/Linux since its creation.
“and you do not have to make it available to everyone who asks”
That one is false and make you wrong , ANYONE who ask for it you have to make it availaible to them.
“you just have to make it available to the people you’re distributing the software to.”
No , definnatly not , its to anyone who ask for the source code.
The GPL whas created to give access at all time to anyone to the source code and protect it from beeing closed to anyone by anyone for any reason.
Mandriva is covered by this :
“even though third parties are not compelled to copy the source along with the object code.”
Mandriva acquired the asset of Lycoris and its developper. Sold the last made product from Lycoris.
They ( Mandriva ) did not participate in its creation neither did they have access to that source code. ( feel free to proove otherwise , you have already shown what whas known by all that they sold the last Lycoris made product on there Store )
They ( Mandriva )also said , by written offer tru there CEO by email and by online publication wich whas transmited by GNU/Linux website tru the official channels that once they have the software source code they will make it availaible.
Thats one thing ( respect of the GPL ) that I know Mandriva will comply with , they , unlike you and those making the accusation , have a very long track record of following and respecting it ( The GPL ) at all time and tru rough time.
– Moulinneuf
– Who is doing the same : Linspire , Xandros , etc …
Please try to know what you are talking about before commenting, thx
http://www.xandros.com/support/source_code.html
(for your conveniance, that page links to this server : ftp://ftp2.xandros.com/src/ )
Source code for Linspire available here : ftp://130.94.123.237/
(this page is linked from the Linspire licensing page)
Sheez…was that so hard? Google is your friend. A simple site:www.xandros.com source code or site:www.linspire.com source code would have provided you with that info, but apparently that is too difficult.
I never learn do I … Must stop thinking with my brain.
“Please try to know what you are talking about before commenting, thx
”
Well since Youve proven without an once of doubt that I whas wrong and that you can read properly ( actually you showed source code put online not the entire source code of the entire distribution , but hey its me who is wrong ,… ).
Linspire CNR and Xandros Networks , direct link to there source please, latest version please. I apparently need your help , so …
“Sheez…was that so hard?”
Yes , since you showed me incomplete source code …
“Google is your friend.”
Google cant pull things athat are not online , there working on going to the futur website but there is technical problem with the quantum traveler server.
” A simple site:www.xandros.com source code or site:www.linspire.com source code would have provided you with that info”
I am not looking to see if Xandros and Linspire offer some source of others software they modified , I whant the entire distribution source code availaible to all , that wich is made by GNU/Linux distribution.
Your like the lawyer who is aksed to provide precise accounting data and who will hide the information by sending the last 20 years accounting and the particular part asked is not even in there. “we gace the last 20 years of accounting Data what do you mean its not in there if it not It just fabricated tales !! ”
“but apparently that is too difficult.”
No , but I whont even try to buzz my building distro friend to see if they can build and entire distribtution equal and similar from that source code , he looked at it and its the same as the last time he tried and say it still incomplete.
Get it ? I dont think so , Because you do not have the big smart like’s me , I am back to making my poutine and eating it.
Honey, is english your first language? It really doesn’t sound like it. You’re either still learning or you’re a babbling incoherent moron.
I am an actual coherent moron who speak proper english.
Damn you’re cool!
It’s an incoherent moron. But it’s an incoherent moron who happens to be correct in this case.
On what basis is that whining on releasing the source of Lycoris “propietary” components? I could understand the one that are OpenSource already. But It’s hard for me to understand the other stuff
The point is that they haven’t released the source code for their GPL components. This has nothing to do with proprietary stuff.
Mr I know everything and I’m right now matter what is at it again! Don’t waist your time with this know it all, it’s just a waist of time!
Its not my fault that you feel so inadequate. I feel pity and sorry for you.
Source code is all that matters. http://antizealot.blogspot.com/
Hello Everyone. As someone who is largely involed in this effort, I feel I need to say something.
Firstly, I don’t believe the IRIS needs to be GPL’ed and I have never asked for it.
What the core of the issue is this.
In the “GPL” sources ISO that you can find on many different mirrors, you can not build a large number of the source rpms. Why? Because Joe developed a tool called portagehead to take an ebuild from Gentoo’s portage tree and create a binary rpm and a source rpm.
Pretty neat.
However, If you do this “rpm –rebuild somepackage-1.0.src.rpm” You can not build the resulting binary that you should be able to under the T&C of the GPL.
That is issue number one.
The other issue is that the source rpms where not made available to the users of IRIS nor was there even a written offer (and still there is none) provided.
Now. People will go and say whats the point? the source is there! etc etc.
Well the point is that people should not be allowed to KNOWINGLY violate the GPL. Even after several emails with Joe and MDV (beginning of Oct 05) and even contacting FSF, We still see no written offer and no solution to a large portion of the Desktop/LX not being able to be freely rebuilt.
People should care about violations of the GPL. People should get fustrated that vendors take their time to correct errors in implementations. These vendors are all too quick to grap the latest greatest GPL application, bundle it up and distribute it, sometimes at cost, sometimes not, and done nothing to ensure that their obligations under the GPL are fullfilled.
Joe has “claimed” he will fix it, at the same time, take a swip at my own and others credability and questioning motives. Regardless of motives.. regardless of my own credability, The fact remains. There is an issue with Lycoris fullfilling the terms and conditions of the GPL.
Sadly, MDV, has done little to try to correct this. They sold Lycoris products in their online store, yet they claim nothing can be done on their behalf. Well… A written offer to provide source is not advanced physics? Joe, given half a chance, will simplely not correct this issue. He has a history of doing so, anyone close to Lycoris will know.
I spent a few years as a developer with Lycoris and seen very questionable actions, all of which I complained bitterly about until they were address. End the end I had to leave.
Regards
Michael aka monkey
Oh. So the problem is not in the sources but in the build dependencies?
No, sorry. I should have made that point clearer.
The issue with portagehead is that it is basically a “snapshot” of Gentoo’s portage. However, none of the scripts, functions etc are included to enable a Desktop/LX user to freely rebuild a packaged source rpm.
The development packages maybe there and fullfill the dependecies for a given package, but you are unable to recreate the binary rpms.
Michael.
That should have read “the IRIS engine”
Michael
“Oh. So the problem is not in the sources but in the build dependencies?”
IIRC both are issues. The sources for the applications in IRIS are not available, and some of the packages were built with an application developed by Lycoris that was not released to the public. So even if people had the sources, they still wouldn’t be able to rebuild them with “rpm –rebuild somepackage-1.0.src.rpm” like Michael said above.
As far as I know, IRIS was not open source
All of the material in Iris are programs/apps previously released under the GNU GPL. Every program available in Iris was specifically optimized & recompiled for Desktop/LX.
The manner in which the Iris items were recompiled is a good portion of the heartburn that many have and is why the issue of the GPL has been brought into play.
The contents of Lycoris’s Iris S/W Gallery are fully viewable. By all means, feel free to visit the Iris Software Gallery at: http://iris.lycoris.com and scan the items in the various categories. You’ll see popular titles throughout each category.
Edited 2005-11-06 03:44
>> As far as I know, IRIS was not open source
All of the material in Iris are programs/apps previously released under the GNU GPL. Every program available in Iris was specifically optimized & recompiled for Desktop/LX.
I’m not sure what you are talking about. It sounds to me as if IRIS is a tool for automatically downloading programs from the Lycoris servers. If that’s the case, then its source code doesn’t have to be GPL just because the programs in the repository are GPL code. Only the GPL programs in the respository would need to be available. Or is IRIS just a repository? Or is it an ambiguous term referring to both? I hate marketing departments.
“I’m not sure what you are talking about. It sounds to me as if IRIS is a tool for automatically downloading programs from the Lycoris servers. If that’s the case, then its source code doesn’t have to be GPL just because the programs in the repository are GPL code. Only the GPL programs in the respository would need to be available. Or is IRIS just a repository? Or is it an ambiguous term referring to both?”
The Iris SW Gallery was a Lycoris Repository where users with (purchased) Product IDs (PIDs) could download additional SW titles specifically tailored for Dektop/LX.
Iris also used its own engine to deliver the desired applications to the user’s computer. This is it was similar to Xandros Networks or other similar methods of SW delivery.
What was missing from Iris, was the ‘written offer’ for the modified source as specified in the GPL. The modified source, along with the actual tools that ‘compiled’ the Iris applications, was also not available on the final Iris 350 CD that shipped with Desktop/LX Gold.
This is where some people had problems. Without the necessary tools & source code, those who wanted to couldn’t update their systems by recompiling source code that should have been freely available to them.
Hope this clears it up. If not, let me know.