Finding an entry-level home PC that doesn’t have a Windows XP sticker on it requires consumers to search through a maze of Web sites. Or if they try calling a major PC maker, the agent is likely to have a hard time steering them toward a Linux-based or bare-bones system.
I’ve heard before the excuse: “supporting Linux and Windows would be too expensive and difficult.” But, I’d have to say, if you can support both in the Netherlands, why not in America? Are we that much less intelligent than people there?
Sometimes I wonder if vendors don’t fear Linux simply because the tendency of FOSS software is to enlighten and educate users, whether they like it or not. Would you, as a retailer of boxed PC’s, want smart consumers? Smart consumers would, afterall, be able to put a PC together from components; if they have the time to invest and the box equivalents are significantly more expensive (which they were, last time I checked 3 years ago).
This is just a testiment to the stranglehold that Microsoft has on its suppliers and it’s customers. But all is not lost. Linux sure as hell isn’t going away, so it would seem that a (hopefully) temporary plateu has been reached. It’s just a matter of more effective marketing, and telling companies like Gateway and Dell to go screw themselves if they insist on invalidating a HARDWARE warrenty if someone was to install something other than Windows on their computers. Pathetic.
…that it’s hard to buy a pc without Windows preinstalled _in the USA_.
Here in Italy barebones PCs selled by computer shops never include windows. And even some of the “lesser brand” computers sold in large stores can be bought with no software.
Sure, brand name PCs include windows… and some other dozen ugly hacks like Microsoft Works, RealPlayer, and so on…
“Here in Italy barebones PCs selled by computer shops never include windows.”
I also live in Italy. You can have also a fully assembled (no brand) PC without Windows. The shop will put exactly what you want in it, both hardware and software.
We should do more of that in the states. There are stores that do it, but not enough of them, IMO.
http://www.adamant.com
Bought my first PC sans OS from them 5 years ago. I will never go to another PC retailer again.
Lip service is being paid to Microsoft in the form of backroom deals requiring the manufacturer to pay Microsoft a license fee for every PC sold by these companies. Why else would Dell sell a system with FreeDos for the same price as the same system with WinXP? Its further proof of the effect an illegal monopoly has on the marketplace for consumers. Microsoft should be broken up completely.
Why else would Dell sell a system with FreeDos for the same price as the same system with WinXP?
Prob because they can easily pocket the difference!
Its further proof of the effect an illegal monopoly has on the marketplace for consumers. Microsoft should be broken up completely.
There may be some lingering effects of MS’s monopoly on operating systems. Broken up to what end and for what gain is the real question.
I myself can’t think of what good would come for consumers if MS was broken up vs. what we have available right now.
Is it that hard to fathom that there may actually be very little demand for preconfigured Linux machines from Dell?
The guy said that when he asked the sales rep at Dell to sell him a Linux box, he/she had to go ask a supervisor for help.
This tells me that after probably > 1 year of working for Dell that is the first time someone asked her that question.
I am willing to bet that dell gets 10x as many requests for an AMD system over the phone that they do one running Linux, and they don’t even carry AMD systems.
And for what? The people I know that actually _use_ Linux on the desktop would never just use what the OEM gave them on a new machine.
The # of people using LOTDT (Linux on the desktop) is somewhere around 2-3%. Now consider that those 2-3% are more likely to be using white box machines than your average Joe, and there are at least 10 major Linux distros that people like to use and they have very short life cycles.
What you have left is a product that is specifically focused for a grand total of about .01% of your customer base.
That’s irrelevant. They should at least make it POSSIBLE to order ANY of their machines without an OS, and not render the warrant null and void. It’s not like they’re being asked to do something extra, they’re being asked to leave something out, which costs them nothing. That’s what really cheeses me off.
Call Honda and tell them you want to order a Civic without an exhaust system on it because you want to install your own after you get the car.
Just look around at the Civics you see, there is obviously high demand for aftermarket exhaust systems for them, but will they leave off the stock system on your order? no.
Does the cost saved on their end offset the cost of treating your order as special circumstance? Maybe.
Nice try, but it’s not a valid comparison. There are no safety or emissions laws to be violated by leaving off the exhaust system. But you CAN order most cars without an audio system, leaving the holes vacant to fill in with whatever head unit and speakers you wish.
What I meant was there are no safety or emissions laws broken by leaving off the OS from a hard drive. It’s unlawful to drive around the US (at least) with no exhaust system on your car.
No it is a valid comparison, if the not the exhaust, then order one without a drivers weel, tires, seats, or paint. Even your own example of ordering a car without a radio/cd player in it is an impossible task with most auto manufacturers.
Not only is “no cd player” generally not an option, if if you tear out the one they give you they are not even “out of the box” compatible with aftermarket decks which is actually less than I can say for Dell/HP.
Look, people. Computer aren’t cars. Analogies like that just don’t hold up very well. If you’re going to compare computers to anything, compare them to people. I know quite a few folks who have shipped without an OS…
LOL, nice one. Well said.
That’s clearly different. Civic covers the exhaust system and related parts. No distributor covers Windows or other software (except, maybe, BIOS software).
The problem is that they don’t want to reveal just how little they pay for Windows….
Actually, they do. When you buy a PC with Windows preinstalled, you are directed to contact your PC manufacturer for OS support. This is because most major PC manufacturers tweak or customize the OS for their specific hardware. The only time you get support from Microsoft for their software is when you buy it retail.
That being said, I would imagine that the great majority of calls to Microsoft are for product activation or reactivation of a retail-purchased OS or office suite. Most major-brand PCs I’ve dealt with (Dell, HP, Gateway) are pre-activated.
That’s irrelevant. They should at least make it POSSIBLE to order ANY of their machines without an OS, and not render the warrant null and void. It’s not like they’re being asked to do something extra, they’re being asked to leave something out, which costs them nothing. That’s what really cheeses me off.
———————————-
Yes, when you own your own company, you can call the shots.
As far as I know, I can build my own pc from parts off the net. For those people who are not able to do this, I’m probably guessing they also cannot install their own OS properly, even IF they could get a PC from a major retailer witout any preinstalled OS.
Where is the problem?
The problem is we have a stupid and/or ignorant buying public here in the US. Someone else stated it perfectly…if they can do it in Europe or China, why not here? The answer is simple: the Microsoft juggernaut. I build my own computer, too, and it’s evolved thru several iterations over the last 8 years. But I know full well I’m in the minority. There are several newby-friendly distros out there, like Ark, Linspire, Xandros, and Ubuntu, that if people knew they even existed, might be encouraged to give one or more of them a look. But they don’t know they’re out there, and Microsoft is perfectly happy to leave them dumb and happy with Windows. It’s sick!
Don’t be a retard Apple doesn’t have a huge problem selling Macs in the US. Not to mention Walmart sells linux pre-installed computers. Most people don’t know what Linux is period! it has very little to do with Microsoft. If you want more pre installed Linux machines then put up some money and create some Linux commercials to educate the people or better yet petetion major Linux companies to do it. I get sick and tired of people blaming Microsoft for Linux’s lack of popularity.
“Don’t be a retard Apple doesn’t have a huge problem selling Macs in the US.”
Its you who is a retard , Apple is an hardware maker , they actually have to build there own system to ship there OS …
“Walmart sells linux pre-installed computers.”
2 or 3 offer among 1 000 dont cut it for me , sorry.
“Most people don’t know what Linux is period!”
Yes and no , its not as clear cut as that.
“it has very little to do with Microsoft.”
Now your beeing delusionnal.
“If you want more pre installed Linux machines then put up some money and create some Linux commercials”
I know from experience that it would be better to create a real GNU/Lunx hardware maker first.
“or better yet petetion major Linux companies to do it.”
Company like Red Hat who cant even make a desktop distribution …
” I get sick and tired of people blaming Microsoft for Linux’s lack of popularity.”
I get sick of listening to people like you , those who think that Microsoft as nothing to do with GNU/Linux not being installed more as default , I will give you its not the only reason but its the major one , why do you think Microsoft is scared of GNU/Linux ? we won where OS/2 , BEOS , BSD , FreeBSD all lost , we got installed on some computers.
ts you who is a retard , Apple is an hardware maker , they actually have to build there own system to ship there OS …
Thats by choice. Nothing is stopping them from licensing their OS.
2 or 3 offer among 1 000 dont cut it for me , sorry.
Then maybe you should start your own business and specialize in offering Linux. Obviously its a gold mine just waiting right ?
I know from experience that it would be better to create a real GNU/Lunx hardware maker first.
Well then quite whining and go that route then. I swear all you do is show up on these forums and cry like a little baby about things. Don’t like the way things are ? Do something to change it!
Company like Red Hat who cant even make a desktop distribution …
Ok so which is it ? Is Linux ready for the desktop or not ? Its amazing how you always have an answer that amounts to nothing more than a blame game. if its not MS’s fault, by god its red hat. Oh no, its not red hat, its Dell because they won’t ship Linux on a desktop.
Why not just come clean and admit what most of us already know. The reason there are few linux options on the desktop from big manufacturers is because there is not a big demand.
Do you honestly think if there was big money in Linux on the desktop that MS could stop dell or HP from going there ? How ? If there is such a huge market waiting for linux on the desktop then Dell and HP obviously don’t need MS!
I get sick of listening to people like you , those who think that Microsoft as nothing to do with GNU/Linux not being installed more as default
I’ll admit MS does have something to do with GNU/Linux not being installed more as default. You know what it is ? In some scenarios MS is the better choice! Thats the only answer. In others its Linux.
why do you think Microsoft is scared of GNU/Linux ? we won where OS/2 , BEOS , BSD , FreeBSD all lost , we got installed on some computers.
I pity you my friend. To me computers are exciting and fun no matter what platform or OS is being used.
you’ve gone and turned it into some kind of war and likely have killed the joy of computing with your troubled psychosis.
I can’t think of anything to say beyond I hope you rot in your anger.
“I hope you rot in your anger.”
Thks
Linux is not ready for the mainstream desktop, I believe it is close, but not there. I know it is easy to think it is ready from a geeks perspective because we know how everything works, we know how and sometimes even like to troubleshoot and fix problems.
The average person is not like us geeks, everything needs to work easily and quickly plain and simple.
Don’t get me wrong, I believe that in say….. 2, maybe 3 years we will see the desktop mature to a point where average people will be totally comfortable with using it.
My point is that until the Linux desktop is mature enough for anybody off the street to use and easily install software, (click ok to install) major vendors like Dell, Gateway, and HP will not push or even offer linux based desktops to their customers.
At that point you will see Redhat, Novell, Mandiva, and other big players in the Linux market doing mainstream advertising for the “New Linux Desktop, Choice Is Good” (the linux slogan of the future).
The problem is we have a stupid and/or ignorant buying public here in the US. Someone else stated it perfectly
The other problem is a lot of the elitist Linux crowd who calls everyone that uses Microsoft stupid or ignorant. At the end of the day a majority of computer users really don’t care about the OS. The big thing is, will it run their applications. Can they e-mail, IM, go to Shockwave.com and play games, run the video their friend sends them, etc. Can you do all of that in Linux, yes (except for the Shockwave.com part), but it’s not always as easy in Linux. When my mom got on the internet with AT&T web service she popped in a CD and it started up. She clicked install and it set up her dialer, configured her browser to start on the AT&T Homepage, configured Outlook Express to connect to mail.att.net or whatever it is, etc. That just doesn’t happen on a Linux machine that easily with no interaction from the user.
A lot of you act like Dell/HP/Compaq/Gateway/etc are just hating life because of Microsoft, but it allows them to sell millions of computers every year; they make lots of money, and all their computers are the same, so tech support is simple and payable out to some Indian over in New Delhi.
Fine, then you deal with your mom’s malware problem. You’re right, most people don’t care about their OS, but they should. Windows is a pile of shit, and anyone who thinks otherwise IS ignorant and stupid. It’s got security holes that you can fly the space shuttle through. It’s fatally flawed, which is why I spend my days at work trying to remove all that awful malware from the Windows computers I support. When I say ignorant, I mean it in the strictest sense of the word. Either people don’t know about an alternative, or they just don’t care. And that is ignorant.
Even though leaving out windows saves a few bucks on a few computers changing the manufacturing and distribution system to allow that as an option adds overhead costs to *every* computer sold.
This is a classic “chicken or egg” situation. If nobody offers pre-configured Linux machines, nobody will buy them; if nobody buys them, nobody will offer them. If Dell offers them, but makes it hard enough to find them, and does not train their sales people, and charges more for them than the same machine with XP, then they can continue to claim that there is no demand.
What remains for those of us that have converted to Linux is a frustrating lack of choice in the marketplace, or the need to buy unused, unwanted Windows licenses, and smug responses from people who seem perfectly happy to be relieved of their free will and choice by corporate America.
Unless Dell changes its way, there will be very few Linux types that will buy Dell as a first choice, again supporting their “lack of demand” opinion. I’d take one as a gift, or if I won one in a contest, but give Dell my money?? I don’t think so.
There is many factors :
1) Red Hat is not ready and probably never will be ready on the desktop , all there attempts at it have clearly failed ( Dell , IBM and HP kicked them out of there product line up in 2000’s). But thats not whats really the problem , since Red Hat cant do it there blocking everyone else with there lies.
2) Microsoft Contract and scare tactics. In the low budget cut troath , Microsoft can make or kill a company with its preferencial threatments , when you have a product for 50$ or 10$ multiply this by 100 000 where talking millions of dollars , if you add only 50$ between two similar product its often what make the client decide. If you not on Microsoft preferencial list hen your models will not sell and you will end up with 100 000 computer all worth 1000 $ that are not competitive or selling.
3) Cluelessness of the journalist who think that GNU/Linux is only two companies , Red Hat and Novell/SuSe who SUSE whas killed in Europe by Debian and Mandriva.
4) Lack of funds , the only one who got tremendous budget whas Red Hat. There not using it for the Dekstop or consumer market at all.
5) The GNU/Linux distribution lack of real OEM offer.
6) The market is f–ked up by false noisy idiots who dont know what there doing , IBM DONT EXIST ANYMORE ON THE DESKTOP for one (Its now Lenovo). Everyone is going laptop this days, and Laptop part are more like the gestapo then on the desktop with there specs.
The Desktop Market for now is three player in that order :
– Mandriva , Globbaly
– Linspire , mostly in the US and online
– Ubuntu , Globally , but there waiting for some technical things to be fixed before making a big real Push
All the rest is just little project with no substance or no real futur in the long term.
It whas the same in 1998 so dont make too much fuss, the problem is Funds ( no one who whant and know how to do it as them ) , Noise ( Red Hat lies ) , Hardware maker keeping the prototype for Microsoft only , the GNU/Linux distribution maker who dont have real OEM branch.
The best in all this is that Most GNU/Linux system shipping with GNU/Linux as default register as Windows ones , because the ODM shipped them to resaller with a Microsoft OS attached to it most of the time.
– Dell is in bed with Red Hat , Red Hat dont have desktop
– IBM dont have a desktop division anymore
– HP is in bed with Red Hat , Red Hat dont have desktop.
Strange thing is that ODM like :
Acer
Asus
MSI
etc …
OEM like :
Samsung
Toshiba
Sony
etc …
are never mentionned.
I always find these articles silly…
It’s the easiest thing in the world to find systems without an OS on them.
Dell sells systems with RedHat and FreeDOS.
Walmart sells systems with Linspire and Lycoris.
So does Tiger Direct.
I’ve bought MOST of my systems without an OS.
It’s NOT HARD AT ALL….
ROFLMAO!
“It’s the easiest thing in the world to find systems without an OS on them. ”
Really ?
“Dell sells systems with RedHat and FreeDOS.”
Last I looked those where OS …
“Walmart sells systems with Linspire and Lycoris.”
Walmart sold one laptop with linspire , Lycoris is dead its now owned by Mandriva who bought them.
http://www.lycoris.com/
“So does Tiger Direct.”
I would hardly call 3 computer with Linspire on it a real offer from Tiger Direct. Linspire is also an OS.
Keep laughing on the floor Microsoft sold 10 000 copy globally minimum of it OS today because your laughing on the floor and think that computer without OS are more availaible then those with Microsoft OS …
If you ever get linux down pat you’ll never go back to windows.
Forget the “big guys”. All that’s needed is a service for all the “little guys” to work together through. Imagine a type of agreement that several little guys have together and through it they are able to advertise for a portal where they can be found at, order their products (which ensures a source for compatible hardware) and so on.
It’s very easy to buy a Linux PC in Brazil:
http://preco2.buscape.com.br/procura?id=22&raiz=2&ordem=&Carac1=&Ca…
Windows Starter (800×600 only) sells more, though.
Regarding Windows and its users, well, I should say it has been an experience.
I learned a lot, technically from Linux and about people from Windows.
😎
dô-ôb
I think it’s sad that computer retailers don’t sell Linux PCs. I know that Walmart does, but most of us know why not to shop there. Now if retailers really believed in “good customer service” and “the customer is always first,” they would see that the customer can save between $80 – $120 by using Linux, which isn’t a big amount of money for a company to lose, considering most customers who haven’t already built their own computers will want Windows anyway. Also, it isn’t hard to get a small list of compatible Linux hardware. http://www.linuxprinting.org comes with a driver for almost every printer available, and http://www.linuxquestions.org has a hardware compatibility feature where people write descriptive reports about hardware they’ve already tried with multiple distributions of Linux.
It’s really annoying that Dell do a very good job selling servers that run with, yes, a *choice* of no OS, Windows or Linux – you just go to the Customize of pretty well any PowerEdge server and the no OS and Linux options are right there next to the Windows options on the server’s normal page.
If they can do a pretty well spot-on job for servers (and hence they MUST have staff familiar with Linux and they even have a Dell Linux site at http://linux.dell.com/ ), why on earth can’t they do something similar with their desktops. I want to go to customise a Dell desktop and see the options for no OS and maybe Linux in there (just “no OS” would be fine if they don’t want to support Linux, along with a warning that the machine cannot be OS/software supported in any way).
Like on Dell’s servers, there should be price differences for the “no OS” and “Linux” desktop options compared to Windows and, no, it should *not* be a separate product to the Windows version and, no, it shouldn’t just be in the business section of the site either.
Wasn’t the DOJ decision about Microsoft’s illegal practices towards OEM supposed to stop them “forcing” OEMs to *only* ship Windows with desktop machines? It seems that absolutely nothing has changed – you suspect that Microsoft are putting indirect or direct pressure on OEMs about this, even to this day.
And don’t get me started on the sickening state of the big OEMs and Linux (or no OS) laptops – it’s even worse! I’d love to be able to buy a major-name laptop with no OS whatsoever – why can’t I?!
>>major-name laptop with no OS whatsoever – why can’t I?!
Because of some ISO standard that the big boxes (and many little guys even) use which says they must ship with an OS. That way they don’t have to test individual components before shipping the box out – its easier for them to have 20 hard drives hooked up to those transfer imaging devices and image the OS too to be able to id if a drive works.
Lots of white box vendors and screwdriver shops will build you a PC with Linux. The reason it comes up a lot that we’d like to see a Dell type vendor do it is because the majority of PC’s are bought on a credit plan from them – to the chagrin of the screwdriver shop that built a painstakeing quote for the customer only to have the customer take that quote home with him and order a Dell or HP with parts as close to that quote as possible because they can get it on credit through them.
The Gateway service representative added that loading anything but Windows on a Gateway desktop would invalidate the warranty.
I just looked at the Gateway warranty and installing a new OS does not invalidate the warranty, at least the way I interpret it. Actually, according to their warranty, they don’t support any software, even they stuff they install themselves.
THIS LIMITED WARRANTY DOES NOT COVER AND GATEWAY IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR:
…
*SOFTWARE, INCLUDING THE OPERATING SYSTEM AND SOFTWARE ADDED TO YOUR PRODUCT THROUGH OUR FACTORY-INTEGRATION SYSTEM, THIRD-PARTY SOFTWARE, OR THE RELOADING OF SOFTWARE