“Every year or so I like to see how Microsoft is doing in its attempt to make a desktop operating system as usable as Linux. Microsoft Windows XP, Home Edition, with Service Pack 2, is a tremendous improvement over previous Windows versions when it comes to stability and appearance, but it still has many glitches that…” Read more at NewsForge.
Windows rapidly approaching desktop usability
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
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Ubuntu’s deb repository isn’t even compatible with debians.
http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/04/11/2335221&tid=163&t…
There are no wireless network cards that I have that have no support in the Linux kernel. Rather, the cards that I have are not supported in the Windows kernel – one has to insert a driver CDROM before Windows knows about them.
The realtek 8180 chipset (huge number of cards use it) has no support for the 2.6 kernel (unless things have changed recently). You have to use ndiswrapper. So no stable module ABI once again hurts users.
“Didn’t work with the camera I just plugged in” – worked just fine with the one that I tried.
Like I said, it’s pretty much a crapshoot. How about the software that it came with?
Or how about Fedora, Mandrake, and Suse rpms playing nicely together?
So, yes you are in repository lockin.
“Ubuntu’s deb repository isn’t even compatible with debians.”
I didn’t claim that it was.
I claim only that you can as an “Average Joe” get the applications you want from either repository.
I don’t particularly like Ubuntu specifically for the reason that it deviates from Debian. For this reason I’d personally much rather use MEPIS or KANOTIX or Knoppix. With Ubuntu there is too much flavour of the “one vendor only” approach. Then again, SuSe suffers a little from this and to a lesser extent Fedora and Mandrake. With SuSe at least one can use apt4rpm and use non-offical apt4rpm SuSe repositories. With Fedora there are quite a number of independant repositories. With Mandrake there are other derivative distributions such as PCLinuxOS, and independant repositories such as PLF.
Having said all that – I am fully aware that the Linux applications I use are all available (and are the same applications) on alternative distributions using different repositories. Ergo, I am in no danger whatsoever of being locked in.
For example, just last week I switched from MEPIS to KANOTIX because MEPIS seems to be becoming a bit too commercial and I don’t want Apache installed on my desktop machine thanks.
There was no hitch with the change-over. It took about 20 minutes to do. I lost no data and no functional programs at all. I can still use all my hardware – even my digital camera, CD burner, usb printer and scanner and my usb pendrive.
I’d just like to say that zealots screaming about “choice” doesn’t make things any better on the linux desktop. Put it this way, if there was another incompatible windowing system other than Xorg/Xfree that KDE used and Gnome used Xorg/Xfree would things be better? Hell no. But somehow having a standard toolkit is a bad thing.
The point is, it’s better to have standards at the lower end of the software stack and differentiate at the higher end (mostly with application choice).
The reason for Gnome even being started is just because of historical anomalies (such as Qt not having an acceptable license at the time). de Icaza claims to have contributed to KDE.
So now we’re going to have a standard interprocess communication system (Dbus). Is that somehow bad because there isn’t choice?
OSX is coheisve and polished because there is only one OSX desktop. Just think if only dominant desktop had emerged on Linux. So much duplication of effort relegates Linux to the hobbyist desktop.
“Or how about Fedora, Mandrake, and Suse rpms playing nicely together?
So, yes you are in repository lockin.”
You just don’t get it, do you?
For Suse I can use any one of about 20 mirrors world-wide of the Suse repositories – or I can use apt4rpm and use the aptrpm repositories here: http://linux01.gwdg.de/apt4rpm/
Similarly there are many choices of repositories for Mandrake or Fedora.
Alternatively I can switch my whole distro over between Suse and Fedora and Mandrake and get the entire set of applications that I use running under any of these. I can process my data with all the exact same applications using any of 20 or more choices of viable distributions – all of which provide all Linux programs in suitable repositories – and many of which use the exact same repositories.
But even where there are incompatible distro repositories – these repositories contain all the exact same programs – meaning I can easily switch from one distro provider to another.
In fact – I have done that very thing many times over – trying out various distributions all processing my collection of userland data. At the moment I have both MEPIS and KANOTIX installed – both using the same /home partition!
It is all compatible at a user level. There is no lock-in. I can (and do) switch providers at the drop of a hat. It is open – because it is open source.
>“I can get any program I want – say GIMP for example – from any repository.”
Rephrasing from the last Star Wars episode: “if program is not in our repository- it does not exist.”
Wow, over 300 comments … I wonder if this is nonsensical bullcrap? *please dually-note the sarcasm* Just because some guy got paid (if he even was) to write an article based on his own opinion/(very lost) experience, that doesn’t make it actual facts that Windows is below Linux in usability, considering the fact that 90% of PC’s run a version of Windows. After reading this, we’re left to “believe” that 90% of the PC user world is clueless. When Linux users agree that the article is ridiculous it’s then you know something’s awry.
For example SuSe has some programs not in the repository of 9.2 and 9.3 (centericq is one example, and for older SuSe’s I doubt it is in there) – no, they don’t automagically contain all the software in all respositories. If it would, everything would be okay.
You can get this from here:
http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/rpm-navigation.php?cat=Network/cent…
Guru’s Suse stuff is in the apt4rpm repositories.
I think you just plain don’t look hard enough.
The article isn’t ridiculous – it is 100% accurate – but it is a parody.
It is a parody of all the “Linux isn’t ready for the desktop” type media fud/trolls that appear from time to time in the IT press.
I thought with the great repositories I don’t have to google for software? Now you are contradicting yourself.
“I thought with the great repositories I don’t have to google for software?”
You wanted it for SuSe – I have Debian installed.
To find it for SuSe I had to Google – and I found it. It is in a repository for SuSe. What more do you want?
On my system all I had to do was this:
“mark@bishop:~$ apt-cache search centericq
centericq – A text-mode multi-protocol instant messenger client
centericq-common – A text-mode multi-protocol instant messenger client (data files)
centericq-fribidi – A text-mode multi-protocol instant messenger client (Hebrew)
centericq-utf8 – A text-mode multi-protocol instant messenger client”
… or use synaptic.
Found it in 5 seconds flat.
No, I do not contradict myself.
What I want from a respository then: To have it in the repository from SuSe, not some third party guy. If a repository, then correctly please. If it would be windows app, I would just have downloaded from the hp of the app.
And beside I choose SuSe as an example, the principle of those problems remain the same with debian, mandrake, <insert random distro here>, even if debian has centericq.
17000 packages in the debian repositories – says it all. What Linux packages are in the repositories? you may ask – ALL OF THEM!
Including X.org? What about the nuvola iconset, which I can easily get in Portage?
But hey, you can live in the denial like that old information minister. “There is no package X. We have everything in our repository. It’s all lies, lies and lies coming from your head. <favourite deity> is going to hit you with <favourite blunt weapon>”.
Instead of denying the problem, trying to find a solution would be more productive.
First you say you don’t want vendor lock-in, then you say you don’t want it from “some third party guy” but only from the distribution vendor.
First you say you don’t want to Google for it and download it from a website, but you want it in a repository from SuSe – then you say you want to download Windows stuff from websites.
You contradict yourself.
With Linux, you can do it either way. Heck, you can even compile it yourself if you want to – you are not locked in.
With Windows – the only way is vendor lock-in.
“Instead of denying the problem, trying to find a solution would be more productive.”
What the hell? There is no problem. I can get anything anyone has mentioned on this thread very easily (using GUI tools if I prefer) for any distribution.
Where is the problem?
Sorry, I can’t see where I should try to find a sloution when I don’t have a problem.
I’m still locked in even if some third party guys contribute minor pieces, too. It is even a waste of time that someone has to do it when you think that the app developer just should do this – but he can’t really.
What is necessary is consistency – not a mixture.
And compiling? Sorry, got other things to do, unless you develop that solution is as nearly as good as none, especially as your fancy package manager doesn’t know about self-compiled stuff.
>“With Windows – the only way is vendor lock-in.”
No, not really.
Microsoft Windows- vendor lock-in (Microsoft).
Software for Microsoft Windows- no lock-in. You can freely (as in hassle-free) buy or download and install software from many places, not under any control from the Microsoft.
Linux as an OS: no vendor lock-in (over 400 distros and counting).
Software for Linux distro of your choice: distro vendor lock-in. Get it from the vendor’s depository or else.
Is not that ironic?
>“With Linux, you can do it either way. Heck, you can even compile it yourself if you want to- you are not locked in.”
Ever heard about compiling software for Windows? Nobody stops you, if you want to.
Why, then, you claim lock-in for Windows software? Make your mind.
“It does, Mark- it is called vendor lock-in.”
somone using a m$ OS should never ever bring up vendor lock-in….
too funny!
really i use my libranet cds to install software on my xandros OCE edition all the time… Also use it on other distros as well….
install software from anywhere on a M$ OS – and all the trojans and adware and toolbars along with it!
oh and if M$ decides they dont like the software you might try to use then they will cripple it or make sure they integrate their software so much it would be rediculous to try and use something else, and of course if you pay 100 bucks for softwareX then no guarantee that it will work for the next version of windows….
lock-in on linux…. too funny
trying to install a Philips saa7134 (Proteus reference) TV card & a Twinhan 1030 DVB-S card under various Linux distributions for years and failed. It’s no Linux fault as the board has no eeprom, there’s no way they could be properly indentified. But under Windows, I just pop the CD-ROM and click, it just works. Can’t we just have a driver installation program for Joe-Six-Pack ?!
I do have Ubuntu happily running on an old Duron, singing & dancing. Too bad it just couldn’t do VDR. So Windows comes to rescue and dancing on Media Portal. For an average joe, it’s things that works that matters. An oem Windows didn’t cost you an arm and a leg. Freewares like virus scanner, firewall and Tea-Timer works like a charm, no trojan no virus. stable too.
and if there was no drivers for it on windows would you complain about windows or about the copany that makes it not providing the driver for it?
the company is welcome to provide linux drivers on a cd or otherwise
>”install software from anywhere on a M$ OS – and all the trojans and adware and toolbars along with it!”
Freedom comes with the price, my friend.
Love to see arguments in favour of big brother from freedom promoting Linux advocates.
> somone using a m$ OS should never ever bring up vendor
> lock-in….
This is plain silly. Vendor lock-in comes from applications, not from the OS. I *am* using Win2k, and nothing stopped me from changing from IE to Firefox and from ICQ to Miranda. No lock-in would stop me either if I chose to change over to Linux, simply because there is none. What comes closest is moving all my files over to the linux disk/partition, which can be done in many ways (shared FAT partition, another hard disk, FTP transfer, …)
One point that does stop me is that many Windows apps don’t run on Linux. Is that lock-in? No, it’s simply the reluctance of the developers to port their applications. It’s not any more lock-in than the inability to run Linux binaries unmodified on the playstation. These systems simply have incompatible binary interfaces.
On the other hand, applications *can* lock you in, by undocumented file formats for example.
looking thru some posts I dont think the twinhan would be impossible, troublesome maybe…
but i do agree in a few situations the process of getting something to work could be better, but it is rare and applies about as often in windows as it does in linux… and the best thing is in linux it is getting better quick!
of course if you was planning on using it on linux you probably should of researched first.I mean if i buy a new video card then I have to make sure it has drivers for win98 so I can use it.
Normally the company is to be blamed.
But the Linux kernel guys are by far not trying to make it easy for companies to write (closed source) drivers. That means in most cases linux hackers have to try to do drivers.
> and if there was no drivers for it on windows would you
> complain about windows or about the copany that makes it
> not providing the driver for it?
>
> the company is welcome to provide linux drivers on a cd or
> otherwise
Joe User won’t complain. He’ll just make his decision. There are basically two cases:
1. Joe has Linux installed and thinks about buying a (insert your favorite hardware here). He’ll think twice if the hardware doesn’t work under Linux, and maybe choose another one. Bad luck for the hardware vendor.
2. Joe has (whatever hardware) and thinks about installing Linux. He’ll think twice if his hardware is not supported, and maybe stick with Windows instead (which is already installed on this computer by default). Bad luck for Linux.
hmmm, i could swear if i want to run office2003 then I am locked into a new OS and probably new hardware for that OS…
yea i would say lock-in occurs more on the M$ camp….
and i have never had to call and get permission to use my OS on linux, what happens when M$ stops support and decides not to take any more phone calls? well that would be lock-out not lock-in huh…
>>looking thru some posts I dont think the twinhan would be impossible, troublesome maybe…
twinhan does works with most of the people that i asked/met. i did all the usual stuff like patching/compiling the kernel/vdr. problems are different people use different distributions with different version of kernel (stock or vendor specific ) with different patches with different compiling options with different version of vdr with different version of patches ….. after a few attemps, that’s really frightening, i just gave up.
What the hell? There is no problem. I can get anything anyone has mentioned on this thread very easily (using GUI tools if I prefer) for any distribution.
Well, get X.org for Debian. Oh, wait. You have to add a third-party repository (Marillat does sound familiar, now doesn’t it). So now, instead of hunting for programs, we have to hunt for repositories. Wonderful.
>>2. Joe has (whatever hardware) and thinks about installing Linux. He’ll think twice if his hardware is not supported, and maybe stick with Windows instead (which is already installed on this computer by default). Bad luck for Linux.
funny thing is, the 2 hardwares are supported under stock linux kernel. could be i am not competent enough to patch,compile and modprobe.
I guess you’re happy with distro-repository lockin.
Don’t be ridiculous, there’s no lock-in. There would be lock-in if there was no other other way to get missing software. There would be lock-in if the distributor (the distro maker) were the smae as the software vendors (they’re not). There would be lock-in if you couldn’t use repositories from other distros (you can). There would be lock-in if you couldn’t package the app yourself and upload it to the repositories (you can, if you become part of the distro community, which is open to all).
Words have meaning. It’s not nice to alter their meaning just to hide the fact that you don’t have any arguments.
Didn’t work with the camera I just plugged in with my HAL-enabled distro. But I guess its always a crap shoot with Linux. Even if HAL did detect it, there is no software to go with it.
What camera? What distro? So far it’s worked with every camera I’ve tried. And you don’t need special software, as Gphoto or its variant are available from the distro repositories…
Of course it has. The ISVs have nothing to target,
Of course they have something to target. In fact, they have a choice of targets: GTK+, Qt, etc. It don’t matter, as the apps will work whatever the distro. I use Gimp on Kubuntu (KDE-based), I know people who use k3B on Ubuntu (Gnome-based).
I know you really, really want this to be a problem in order to support your agenda, but you’re only deluding yourself. It isn’t, no more than multiple toolkits is a problem on Windows. I’ve never heard a developer say that they didn’t port an app to an OS because there were too many toolkits. That’s just ridiculous.
zealot groupthink that continues to tow the party line will always hurt Linux adoption on the desktop.
Again with the insults, eh, Lumbergh? I guess that’s what your best at, seeing how fragile your arguments are.
THe funny thing is that your pseudo-argument contains its own rebuttal. If there was such a thing as “zealot groupthink”, then there wouldn’t be multiple competing toolkits and DEs. By definition “groupthink” is monolithic, not fragmented. In fact, the only people who seem to be indulging in groupthink here are the windrones, you included.
Funny you bring that up. Notice how the mod tools aren’t available for Linux. Hmm…wonder why. Oh, because there is no standard toolkit for linux.
That’s not the reason and if you’d been following the discussions about it on the Bioware boards you’d know it. Why you feel the need to lie about these things just to prove a point, I can’t imagine.
If there had been one dominant desktop with a standard toolkit, then maybe things would have turned out differently.
Well, you go on believing that fantasy. The Linux desktop is now at the same level as the Mac OS desktop, and it keeps progressing. You can keep fooling yourself until IBM and Sony come out with Linux-based Cell workstations, I really don’t care. But of course, if you keeping posting lies here, I’ll continue to counter them, even if you’re not putting up too much of a challenge.
The realtek 8180 chipset (huge number of cards use it) has no support for the 2.6 kernel (unless things have changed recently). You have to use ndiswrapper.
…and it works very will with ndiswrapper. In other words, you’re whining that the cards don’t work when in fact they do…yeah, that’s a boost for your credibility!
It’s not that Linux isn’t ready, it’s that YOU don’t want it to be ready, and therefore come up with bogus and/or obscure arguments to support your agenda. No wonder no one takes you seriously anymore.
Including X.org? What about the nuvola iconset, which I can easily get in Portage?
Both of these are in the Ubuntu repositories, so I figure it’d be pretty easy to install them on any Debian system.
The anti-Linux posters here are quite a hypocritical bunch – as soon as they detect ONE FLAW they say that Linux is not ready. They are holding Linux to a much, much higher standard than they do their own OS. It’s a question of bias: when you start with the attitude that Linux is inferior and will never ever be a viable alternative, then all you do is rationalize this opinion and find examples – no matter how irrelevant and untrue they may be – to support your bias. This is what we’re seeing here.
Meanwhile, I’ve NEVER heard a newbie complain that he couldn’t find a particular app in Mandriva or Ubuntu. Hasn’t happened. And when an app is missing, someone will package it and upload it for approval. That’s the power of community, which y’all obviously don’t get.
Software for Linux distro of your choice: distro vendor lock-in. Get it from the vendor’s depository or else.
Or else, download it from the software’s home page.
I think Lumbergh, Wrawrat, Legend and Russian Guy suffer from ideological lock-in…
why do i need xorg on debian? you are making stuff up!
you have to search for a repository? so…. does all the software for windows come to your inbox every month? I have 10 debian cds here and do not even need a repository except for updates and new stuff and that is stock debian… oh debian realizes that some updates to programs need to be made available so they are working on a system for updated programs
Well, get X.org for Debian. Oh, wait. You have to add a third-party repository (Marillat does sound familiar, now doesn’t it). So now, instead of hunting for programs, we have to hunt for repositories. Wonderful.
Except that you only have to add a repository once. So, no, it’s really not the same thing.
Thank, though. By bringing up third-party repositories you’ve basically destroyed Lumbie and Russkie’s argument for “repository lock-in”.
Anti-Linux posters are really starting to grasp at straws. This, combined to the fact that they’ve become less rational and more agressive, leads me to believe that Linux is on the right track.
So what? If you don’t care about hunting for repo’s you probably don’t care about Xfree vs Xorg.
…and it works very will with ndiswrapper. In other words, you’re whining that the cards don’t work when in fact they do…yeah, that’s a boost for your credibility!
It’s not that Linux isn’t ready, it’s that YOU don’t want it to be ready, and therefore come up with bogus and/or obscure arguments to support your agenda. No wonder no one takes you seriously anymore.
You’re losing it now. Do you even know what ndiswrapper is? It’s a wrapper around windows binary drivers. And you consider that the solution? Unless distros are carrying windows binary drivers these days its far from an optimal solution. No wonder zealots like you that stick their head in the sand and proclaim there is no problems are laughed at.
“I’ve never heard a developer say that they didn’t port an app to an OS because there were too many toolkits. That’s just ridiculous. ”
No of course not, this made me truly laugh out loud. Too many toolkits is a developer haven! It’s users who get annoyed at having more and more toolkits.
“You’re losing it now. Do you even know what ndiswrapper is? It’s a wrapper around windows binary drivers. And you consider that the solution? Unless distros are carrying windows binary drivers these days its far from an optimal solution.”
Yes it’s a solution. It’s neither optimal nor is it really a good Unix solution. However, it works for a large number of people, it serves the users (my God, isn’t that what people say only companies can do?), and for the moment it’s about the best solution available to people who aren’t CEO’s or CIO’s at major hardware designers.
Me, personally, I don’t buy unsupported hardware (I call it crap). All of my orinoco cards work beautifully; which is why I buy them! Although the first I bought by accident actually, and it worked with no problem
.
You can’t even recompile your windows drivers to take full advantage of every kernel change and your exact processor arch; you call that a solution?!
See, we can all knitpick.
“More evidence of your delusional, zealot fantasies. Thanks for the laugh. In 2010, when Linux is still at low single-digit desktop market penetration levels zealots will continue to be bitter.”
Even ITS people moved over. No zealouts stick around when things become so bad they have to be bitter. And Linux Zealouts aren’t bitter now.
Have you been reading this thread? So far Mark has dug up an off repository for someone who was probably yanking his chain (that’s called bullying when minor’s are involved); nun a moos has argued with you using what he knows in a level-headed and well spoken manner; and I’ve been utterly ignored even though I’ve made more than one in every hundred posts here. These people aren’t bitter; they’re having a lively debate and at least I am enjoying it.
And you have persisted and called us zealouts, fanatics, and said we are “losing it.” Which, at least in my locale, implies one is losing their mind.
Frankly lumbergh, and I try to avoid insults and flaming these days, you are a loud-mouthed malcontent (a vague reference to Homer Simpson).
Yeah, it’s a solution for hobbyists that don’t mind dicking around with the hassle of setting it up. It’s not the solution for everybody else. Oh, and if you’re not compiling ndiswrapper for your particular kernel you better hope that your repository lock-in has your kernel version and ndiswrapper in synch. Ubuntu Hoary broke on that one. Hobbyists have lots of time though, so breakage doesn’t really matter to them.
If there was a stable kernel module ABI then hardware manufacturers would probably be more willing to develop drivers, not only that, but the viral GPL makes them dick around with a source wrapper.
Both of these are in the Ubuntu repositories, so I figure it’d be pretty easy to install them on any Debian system.
Yes — for the moment. You probably read the concerns that Ian raised some weeks ago.
The anti-Linux posters here are quite a hypocritical bunch – as soon as they detect ONE FLAW they say that Linux is not ready.
I dare you to find the part where I said “Linux is not ready”. You will have an hard time because I didn’t. I use Linux, for Christ’s sake. It seems to me that anybody slightly critical is automatically labeled a ‘zealot’ or ‘heretic’.
They are holding Linux to a much, much […zzz…] seeing here.
Of course I do. If I wanted Linux to be a Windows clone, I would shut up since both are more or less at the same level.
Meanwhile, I’ve NEVER heard a newbie complain that he couldn’t find a particular app in Mandriva or Ubuntu. Hasn’t happened.
So what. Are you omniscient? I have seen some, yet I don’t conclude everybody is whining.
And when an app is missing, someone will package it and upload it for approval. That’s the power of community, which y’all obviously don’t get.
What you don’t seem to get is that you are at the mercy of the maintainers. It did happened to me at least twice (look 2nd post, 226-240). What I am suggesting is a system complementing the repositories or maybe a central repository à la kernel.org/addons.mozilla.org where authors, those who actually develop a package, could upload their package in a specific format which could be translated to the most popular format.
Except that you only have to add a repository once. So, no, it’s really not the same thing.
Well, you do tend install a program only once…
You know, since the signal-to-noise ratio is getting high and you’re mixing me with some people, I invite you to continue our discussion by email if you want. Feel free to contact me.
Have you been reading this thread? Once again, linux zealots continue to proclaim that everything is fine, there are no problems, distro repositories are the answer to all problems, there are no problems with drivers and a stable kernel ABI, there are no problems with two dominant desktops (but one low-level windowing system is a good thing), there are no problems with umpteen incompatible distros (which Linux is unique among operating systems).
They’re called zealots for a reason. And that’s because they are blinded by their ideology like anun he moos. Don’t question. Everything is perfect in linuxland and anybody that says otherwise is a heretic.
why do i need xorg on debian? you are making stuff up!
You know, I couldn’t care less if you don’t. I need it because it has the proper video drivers for my laptop. Yeah, I can get it by adding third-party repositories but they are not necessarily safe and the QA might not be to the same level than the one done by the Debian team.
Of course, I could simply use another distro, but it pretty much invalidate that Debian has everything or that repositories are the ONLY solution.
You’re losing it now.
This coming from someone who’s never had it…difficult to take the insult seriously!
Do you even know what ndiswrapper is? It’s a wrapper around windows binary drivers. And you consider that the solution?
If it works, then yes, it’s a solution. I used ndiswrapper for my rt2500 card and it worked great!
Unless distros are carrying windows binary drivers these days its far from an optimal solution.
Oh, I see, you want the “optimal” solution, right? Nothing less than perfection is acceptable to you, right? Well, guess what, no OS on the face of this planet is optimal. Not Windows, not OS X, not Solaris. So of course Linux will never reach the bar you’ve set, because as a true zealot you’ve set it at such a height that no OS will ever reach it.
Windows drivers are easy to download from the Internet – you know, what you keep saying is the best solution? So rather than try to pussyfoot around the issue, you should just admit that you were wrong: you can use the card you mentioned in Linux, end of story.
No wonder zealots like you that stick their head in the sand and proclaim there is no problems are laughed at.
When the problems are false ones dreamed up by zealots like you, then there’s no reason for concern. Meanwhile, I’d worry more about my own credibility than claim that I’m somehow “laughed at”. The only people I see laughing are you and the other anti-Linux posters, and the laughter rings quite hollow.
More evidence of your delusional, zealot fantasies. Thanks for the laugh. In 2010, when Linux is still at low single-digit desktop market penetration levels zealots will continue to be bitter.
The only delusional zealot here is you. Prove to me that Linux isn’t comparable to Mac in market share, despite what independent market analysis firms have stated. Somehow, I should believe you, an irrational zealot, rather than specialists in market research? I think not. And I’m not bitter – quite the contrary, I find watching you trying to wiggle yourself out of your logical contradictions quite amusing! And seeing the number of people who jealously look at my Linux Laptop, I have no reason to be bitter at all – rather, I feel flattered. I’ve already gotten two people interested in dual-booting Linux on theirs, and I gave them a Linux LiveCD to try it out.
In fact, that makes me realize that we’re alike in at least one way: simply by using my lappy and giving out LiveCDs, I get people to try Linux. Meanwhile, your arrogant anti-Linux zealotry has so little credibility that you’ll only convince more people to try out Linux. Keep up the good work, Lumby!
yea i got it…………. wooohoooo
Once again, linux zealots continue to proclaim that everything is fine, there are no problems, distro repositories are the answer to all problems, there are no problems with drivers and a stable kernel ABI, there are no problems with two dominant desktops (but one low-level windowing system is a good thing), there are no problems with umpteen incompatible distros
This is the best example of the shrill FUD that is thrown about by the linux haters.
I challenge you Lumberg, to provide just one quote, where someone who is refuting the claims of problems with any of the above, and states that there are NO problems. Just one quote.
oh well 351 isnt too bad
I dare you to find the part where I said “Linux is not ready”. You will have an hard time because I didn’t.
You’re completely right, I’m sorry. I’m following too many conversations at once, and I got mixed up.
Also, I don’t have a problem with leveling honest criticism at Linux. The problem is that as soon as you admit to minor flaws you have people like Lumbergh, Russian Guy and others latching on to this as proof that the OS is “not ready”. This was, I believe, the point of Roblimo’s article: that no OS is ready if you hold it to such a high standard as perfection.
My point is that Linux is as ready as Windows or Mac OS X. Sure, it’s different; sure, strengths and weaknesses vary from OS to OS. Overall, they are all very usable and capable, so it becomes a matter of personal (and political) choice. However, it seems some in the pro-MS camp don’t want choice, they only want Windows to prevail. This is what I take exception, as both a Windows and Linux user.
So, again, I’m sorry if you feel I attacked you. This was not my intention – I was just having a bit of fun working Lumbergh up. I’ll try to be more careful in the future.
Take a look at any one of Anun he moos’s linux zealot posts for examples.
Oh, sorry to burst your bubble, but I’m not a linux hater. I use it for work almost everyday and have been since 1997. I just don’t think Linux is a religion like the zealots do.
Don’t worry. Anun he moos gets very frustrated as do many Linux zealots do and lashes out at everybody that dares to be critical of Linux. Anun he moos takes his “advocacy” very seriously.
I think you’re mistaking me for someone else: you. You’re the one who lashes out at those you disagree with (basically crying “Zealot! Zealot!” in every post.). You’re the one who seems frustrated – I’m having a blast, considering I’ve countered every one of your arguments and left you with your usual ad hominem attacks and strawman arguments.
I’m not at all frustrated with the progress of Linux on the desktop, as I have never believed it would happen overnight. Linux works for me, that’s all that matters, though I’m happy that – unless you can prove me wrong – its market share has now reached the same level as Apple’s.
These days I’m quite excited about the Cell processor and the mounting assault on Wintel by IBM/Sony/Toshiba. I figure my next PC will probably be Cell-based (I know my next game console will!)…This, to me, is the breakthrough that Linux on the desktop needs. You’re welcome to debate this, however try to have real arguments this time…
Oh, sorry to burst your bubble, but I’m not a linux hater. I use it for work almost everyday and have been since 1997.
I use Windows everyday and have been using it since Windows 3.0. Yet I don’t spend weekends attacking it on some websites. You’re the zealot here, Lumby, not me.
And yes, someone who spends hours and hours spreading FUD about Linux does indeed fall into the “Linux hater” category, whether he accepts the label or cowardly tries to avoid it.
a stable kernel ABI would mean we would have lots of drivers being written? what? is that what you call drivers on windows “stable” good lord…
whats the problem with two dominant desktops, i actually prefer the numerous other lite desktops… Whats the problem with having numerous desktop environments???
whats the “big flaw” with the windowing environment, seems to be a lot more flexible than what windows uses…
“lashing out at anyone critical of linux”
for your info the article was about someone being critical of windows and I believe the windows guys decided they needed to lash out and set the record straight not the other way around… too funny
Take a look at any one of Anun he moos’s linux zealot posts for examples.
Provide the quote where he states “there are no problems”. That was your claim. Back it up with just one quote.
Careful, you’re trying to have a rational argument with Lumbergh…he’s bound to start personally attacking you any moment now…
it is like you read the explainations about why/how gnome was created but twisted it into some zealot based decision….
so why was
icewm
xfce
enlightenment
and so forth created?
Never had what? Your demented ideology that transforms source code into a religion?
You need to improve your reading skills, my zealotous friend. You said “you’ve lost it”, and I replied “you never had it.”
But wait a minute, you’ve proclaimed on many posts that the repository is all that anybody needs. Where are the windows drivers in the repository?
No I haven’t. Why do you always need to lie to prove a point? I said that the repository system is very good, that it is very efficient, but I also mentioned that other programs could be obtained from the web. Saying that the repository system works well doesn’t mean that one should be limited to it…
See what really irks you is that I use linux for my job and have been since 1997, but I’m not drinking the GNU koolaid like the other nuts that have turned open source advocacy into a religious experience, and am able to look at the situation realistically.
I’ve been using Windows since the early 1990’s, and yet I don’t feel the irrational need to attack. You, on the other hand, have this unhealthy obsession with attacking Linux, GNU and the FSF every chance you get. The only one displaying a religious fervor here is you, and from the comments on this board I can see that most people are beginning to realize that.
Hah, read up on history. The original reason that Gnome was started was because the QPL wasn’t “free” enough or GPL compatible according to Stallman drones. Of course their definition of freedom isn’t the rational defintion of freedom, but even with a GPLd KDE, something like Gnome had to be started because people weren’t going to put up with a viral straight GPL license. So it was zealotry that was the reason for Gnome, but of course something like Gnome had to be started anyway in order to have a more liberal license.
Do you realize you’re not making any sense? Gnome was started because KDE was not GPL’d, but then it needed to be started because KDE was GPL’d? And you have the gall to present yourself as the rational one here?
In any case, your example perfectly shows why there isn’t any “groupthink”, but rather lots of different opinions. This isn’t fair, Lumbergh: at least give me the chance to demolish your arguments before you sabotage them yourself!
Haha, you wish I was a zealot or you wouldn’t have a problem with me.
You are a zealot, Lumbergh. Deal with it.
But continue to think I’m anti-linux because I don’t see things through rose-colored glasses like you and the other nuts that take software too seriously.
I don’t see things through rose-colored glasses, and I certainly don’t take software too seriously. I just have problem with people spreading FUD about Linux (or Windows, for that matter).
Jealously? Haha, that’s a good one. I could just picture you running around showing your laptop off. “Look guys. I’m running Linux. I’m cool. You could be too if you just ran Linux. You can be part of a cool community and be an advocate like me” ROFL
Tsk tsk. That’s not quite how it happens. I don’t actively show it top people. Rather, I’m using my laptop, minding my own business, when someone usually comes by and asks:
“Hey, your desktop looks pretty cool, what program do you use to make it look like that?
– Actually, it runs on Linux.
– Really? I though Linux was, like, complicated with commands you have to enter at a DOS prompt.
– It used to be like that, but now it’s pretty much like Windows or Mac.
– Interesting. I wish I could try it.
– You can. Here, pop this into your computer. It won’t install anything, it runs from the CD.
– Hey, thanks. I’ll bring this back to you soon.
– Nah, keep it, it’s free. You can even make copies legally.
– Cool.”
So far, I must have given away two dozens Knoppix CDs over the past two years. The feedback I get is generally positive. I would never, ever say to someone that he/she should run Linux because it’s “cool” – in fact, I never say to anyone that they should run Linux, I simply offer them to try it out to see if they like it or not.
I also don’t spend time on internet boards and comment sections to attack other OSes. That’s what zealot such as you do.
I’ve got a dinner party and I’m running late. I’ll be back later or tomorrow to continue the FUD-countering.
You kids behave, now!
>So far, I must have given away two dozens Knoppix CDs over the past two years. The feedback I get is generally positive.
Given away one Knoppix CD a month, given away 0 Windows CDs: living proof that Windows is not ready for desktop.
Linux advertisement on the Internet board near you:
– Really? I though Linux was, like, complicated with commands you have to enter at a DOS prompt.
– It used to be like that, but now it’s pretty much like Windows or Mac.
Counter opinion shamelessly copied from the SlashDot (http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/05/28/2053229&tid=185&t…):
User: “How do I get Quake 3 to run in Linux?”
Zealot: “Oh that’s easy! If you have Redhat, you have to download quake_3_rh_8_i686_010203_glibc.bin, then do chmod +x on the file. Then you have to su to root, make sure you type export LD_ASSUME_KERNEL=2.2.5 but ONLY if you have that latest libc6 installed. If you don’t, don’t set that environment variable or the installer will dump core. Before you run the installer, make sure you have the GL drivers for X installed. Get them at [some obscure web address], chmod +x the binary, then run it, but make sure you have at least 10MB free in /tmp or the installer will dump core. After the installer is done, edit /etc/X11/XF86Config and add a section called “GL” and put “driver nv” in it. Make sure you have the latest version of X and Linux kernel 2.6 or else X will segfault when you start. OK, run the Quake 3 installer and make sure you set the proper group and setuid permissions on quake3.bin. If you want sound, look here [link to another obscure web site], which is a short HOWTO on how to get sound in Quake 3. That’s all there is to it!”
User: “How do I get Quake 3 to run in Windows?”
Zealot: “Oh God, I had to install Quake 3 in Windoze for some lamer friend of mine! God, what a f** mess! I put in the CD and it took about 3 minutes to copy everything, and then I had to reboot the f** computer! Jesus Christ! What a retarded operating system!”
Has anyone ever tried Windows SFU? It acts as a UNIX subsystem well (actually better than WINE emulates Windows). And it can run both Windows and Linux apps at the same time with ease and there is a free 32 bit X server for it. SO well Windows can perform advanced interoperability than linux so its definitely a more matured OS (just not free).
P.S.:To run apps on a Windows platform with SFU(which is a free download) I can just recompile linux apps easily and run them on my Windows machine as fast as they would run on a UNIX platform. I can even compile apt-get to work on SFU and then setup a repository that just contains Windows based rpms (after of course installing rpm support by recompiling it) and then take advantage of full functionality of linux rpm installation. it wont be as massive as a rewrite of the entire installation method on linux. Well that just shows Windows’ pros and well it is then ofcourse an easier to use solution and a more ready solution than linux presently.
Please answer truly: How many newbies trying to install linux have remained firm on their decisions? Many of them have thought again and switched back to Windows.
According to your logic, Quake 3 is hard to install on Linux because it does not provide include files optimized for Windows. Try to natively install an optimized game for Playstation like Gran Turismo on PC and let know if you have ever succeed.
Frankly, that is the dumbest argument on this post because you should know these kind of application need to be recompiled and sometime codes need to be rewritten to support that particuliar OS.
His example does however illustrate an important point that there are some common tasks which an average user might want to accomplish that remain difficult for non-techies. Quake is a popular game and it’s not at all unreasonable for someone to want to play it on Linux, particularly when Linux advocates are quick to point out that it’s possible when potential converts lament the limited number of games available natively on Linux. The fact that Quake is optimized for Windows is of no consequence to the user. He was told that it was possible, so in his mind, that shouldn’t be an issue; by not being fully honest and mentioning that it required a non-trivial amount of work, the Linux advocate effectively deceived the user and converted him to a system which really didn’t fit his needs.
No one called you a heretic or anything like it. You have been treated as an intellectual equal but have responded by being rude and calling names.
“Oh, sorry to burst your bubble, but I’m not a linux hater. I use it for work almost everyday and have been since 1997. I just don’t think Linux is a religion like the zealots do.”
You respond to supposed zealouts with the same zeal they respond to you, and you resort to the same tactics. You, sir, are everything you call zealouts. It saddens me that you don’t see it.
You may use linux, but where do you contribute? Certainly not here with your constant attacks against other users.
“Hah, read up on history. The original reason that Gnome was started was because the QPL wasn’t “free” enough or GPL compatible according to Stallman drones. Of course their definition of freedom isn’t the rational defintion of freedom, but even with a GPLd KDE, something like Gnome had to be started because people weren’t going to put up with a viral straight GPL license. So it was zealotry that was the reason for Gnome, but of course something like Gnome had to be started anyway in order to have a more liberal license. ”
That is entirely innacurate. I cite “Rebel Code” as my source for this correct history:
KDE was started using QT from trolltech, correct.
At the time QT was entirely closed, correct.
People didn’t want to use this, so they started Gnome.
They used GTK, which was developed by a student for fun.
Later, QT realized how good KDE had been for it and wanted to give back. They decided to open up, they had also been pressured a lot by GPL types. So they asked for some help and formed the QPL.
To this day Debian and almost all other distros except the QPL as being free. Almost no one argues with it.
For someone using linux at the time I’d think you would remember the controversy a little more accurately.
Frankly lumbergh you need to back off nun a moos case. This is getting extremely unprofessional, and rediculous. Start acting like the rational being you claim to be and stop insulting people with backhanded comments and non-profane political insults (zealout).
“Please answer truly: How many newbies trying to install linux have remained firm on their decisions? Many of them have thought again and switched back to Windows.”
7,342,902;7,342,901. I know this because I know all
.
How many people have tried broccoli and not liked it and gone back to their bad diet? Broccoli’s not ready for the kitchen table!
It was a joke, laugh at me or it :-p.
This is categorized as Humor on NewsForge, people.
is that in the microsoft download area and how do i install it?
I find it ironic that the reviewer complains about hardware compatibility when Linux, by my reckoning, is less compatible (admittedly with windows-based h/w).
Was this meant to be a joke review? I’m no windows supporter, but I do use windows (I’m a gamer ;D) – and no, I didn’t pay for it!
I have seriously considered switching to a better OS, but as of yet, I haven’t found one that suits me. That is, installs, works, game-compatible – no config or script-editing to get working.
Linux is coming close, but I’ve yet to read a review where you don’t have to edit at least one file to get all the drivers working – it should be windows-easy.
I am a techie, but I really can’t be arsed spending a day getting an OS working with my hardware.
Windows can be free – you just need to look in the right place!
It is humor, albeit bad humor in certain views.
devide i would test and see if software install is as troublesome as everyone claims….
went to yahoo, messnger page, downloaded the deb, the rpm, and the bsd package….
wow-I can use everyone of those formats just fine….. How am I locked in again?
Windows can be free – you just need to look in the right place!
Quite a bold statement considering you are posting from a government IP… 😉
“Shoot, this is crazy. Try installing a 4 year old Linux distro, like RH 7.0 or something, bet you cant use it today. However, install XP, and in less than an hour you are up and running, playing games or using software that was released -Yesterday-.”
After installing SP2, DirectX 9.whatever, upgrading all your drivers, rebooting a few times.
The point is that comparing a four-year-old XP to a new linux distro is OK, since we’re comparing the newest available versions of each.
Linux works great on my computer and it cost nothing. I see no reason why I should waste my time and money to switch to windows.
we havent hit the 400 post mark yet, if we do then eugenia will send everyone a coupon that will let you get a OS for free!
commmeeee onnnnn……
Having been one of the few people to actually read all the comments here is that once you’ve really used linux properly, going back to Windows is very uncomfortable. It’s just getting there that can take a hell of a lot of work. And I’m not trying to convert everyone. If Windows is best for you, keep it!
It’s just not the best for me – I can’t afford it. I built my computer myself and it runs the weirdly-named mandriva, which is free. It took me a long time before I was comfortable with linux, and now when I do have to use Windows, I don’t like it.
“once you’ve really used linux properly, going back to Windows is very uncomfortable”
exactly, very well put, bravo….
as long as you “play” with linux or “try” linux but then boot back to windows anytime you need to actually do anything, then you will never truly use linux and you will think it is pointless. I finally MADE myself truly use it for about a month, nothing else but linux, and after that I didnt care to use windows at all really. That is the same advice I give people now, try it for a bit, play with it for a while, once you have a clue MAKE yourself use it for about a month…you wont go back after that!
in which repository is that and how do i install it?
It was a bad argument.
if ntfs didnt change at every whim of billys butt then it would be no problem at all… Is it a problem? I havent tried read/write, I know read is no problem…
of course why would you want to use ntfs? I honestly see no reason for it…. except of course to have a different filesystem to keep everything a bit more propriatary.
I don’t think you got my point. The original posting by rtfa made it look as if MS had to support ReiserFS to be at the same compatibility level as Linux. This is simply nonsense, since Linux doesn’t fully support NTFS either.
> if ntfs didnt change at every whim of billys butt then it
> would be no problem at all…
That explains the problem but doesn’t solve it in any way.
> Is it a problem? I havent tried read/write, I know read is
> no problem…
Reading worked fine for me, but it was a *serious* problem that writing was impossible.
> of course why would you want to use ntfs?
Why would one want to use ReiserFS under Windows? I, for example, needed NTFS support on my dual-boot system to move files.
i think it was just another argument concerning more choices on linux and talking about lock-in and so forth…. Yakking about how XP is perfect and so flexible when it comes to stuff…
seems everyone has left the discussion
oh well…
so is it not possible to remount the drive read/write ??
It’s still in development – the project was restarted from scratch not so long ago. The issue is that it’s a lot more complicated than with most FS. As of now “Write” is possible but very dangerous (“Read” is no problem).
The best bet if you have both WinXP and Linux on the same computer and want to share stuff between them is to have a small FAT32 partition dedicated to this purpose.
Actually, I think it’s experamental in the vanilla kernel. It’s in mine! At least there’s a module there…
“Erm. MythTV is a PVR. Dscaler is a small app for displaying captured video. They’re really not comparable. Yes, some Linux apps for displaying TV take some deinterlacing code and ideas from dscaler. This is how open source software is supposed to work, after all. But you don’t use MythTV and dscaler to do the same job. If you have to compare dscaler to something, compare it to tvtime.”
No, dscaler is a tv viewing app, that can use it’s own hardware drivers, and i can record tv in realtime using any of windows codecs (divx, xvid, ffdshow, etc.). And yes it’s GPLed.
and in conjunction with virtualdub (also GPLed) for video processing you get one hell of a PVR.
just use fat32…. of course i still keep my stuff on a seperate partition just so nothing bad will happen (hopefully)
A dscaler amongst other things is nice for decoding pay TV such as canal+.
Wait a minute…. linux users like to recompile everything they get their hands on, but have an isue with installing a specific driver for a specific hardware to make sure it runs optimaly?
okey dokey.