“Every year or so I like to see how Microsoft is doing in its attempt to make a desktop operating system as usable as Linux. Microsoft Windows XP, Home Edition, with Service Pack 2, is a tremendous improvement over previous Windows versions when it comes to stability and appearance, but it still has many glitches that…” Read more at NewsForge.
Windows rapidly approaching desktop usability
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli
Are you so flustered with people pointing out the shortcomings of Linux on the desktop that you have to bring up the Cell processor? It has nothing to do with Linux usability. You might as well told me some obscure fact about your dog in order to bolster your point that Linux is ready for the desktop.
I’ve never been wrong about new tech, so choose to disregard it if you want, you’ll only miss the boat.
It’s hard to take you seriously about tech, when you thought that just because some code compiles it works.
“Have YOU seen the demos, Lumbergh? Did you know that, during the time of E3, there was a private demo of a server running Linux on 2 Cell processors, and that the performance blew away anything that Intel/AMD can possibly deliver in the next couple of years?”
I’ve heared that they decoded 70 videos in realtime. is this true?
doesn’t sound too impressive for a board with 1 gig ram and ~16 cores at 2.8GHz each.
http://qube.ru/images/gallery/beos_r45_on_eight_ip3_550mhz_2_big.jp…
Anyway, if that’s the biggest complain anti-Linux zealots have, then it tells me that Linux has progressed a lot indeed!
It’s only the FSF/GNU type of people that think software is religion. These are the zealots. Rational people think of them as tools.
That’s not the biggest complaint. Of course you failed to address the other issues I brought up in the first post that you responded to me.
I’ll just throw one out for you. Binary drivers and no stable kernel ABI for them. And don’t forget that shenanigans that ATI and Nvidia have to go through to get their kernel modules in. Ala the stupid source wrapper to get around the viral GPL.
Until some people get it through their head that there are going to be lots of hardware manufacturers that never release their register-level specs then the game is over and Linux will always be a niche, hobbyist desktop.
You’ve got the BSDs, OpenSolaris, and OSX. People that want a nice Unix desktop just go to OSX.
If Linux had had one dominant desktop environment, then maybe things would have turned out differently.
Truly you seem to be an idiot. The thing you downloaded was not a trick but your SATA driver which you would have stored in a floppy and pressed F6 to install when the installation began. Windows XP doesnt contain SATA drivers built in so you need to provied drivers. Well if I pint things where Linux has no compatibilty at all (Nvidia SLI is an example) the list will keep going on.
Guys, let it go. This issue is a non-issue: I’ve never heard a Linux user complain that a package he really needed was not available to his distro.
That’s like saying “This program works for me so you must be the problem”… But hey, while we’re at it, I’ll be honored to be your first Linux user complaining about this situation. Example? While I don’t plan to use GNOME anymore, there is an huge amount of software on GnomeFiles that I couldn’t find in Debian/Gentoo repositories. I can’t blame the developers nor the maintainers since they are doing all their work for free, but the issue does exist.
And what if it’s not the latest and greatest? In a couple of weeks, it will added to the repository (maybe only a couple of days if it’s a bleeding-edge distro).
Or a couple of months, depending on how the mainteners feel and/or how popular the program might be…
Now, if there was a repository where authors could upload their program in a SINGLE format (pretty much like addons.mozilla.org), we wouldn’t even have this argument. Unfortunately, this is not the case…
[I wonder if it could be possible to set up a system that would accept a package and automatically translate it in multiple formats]
If you’re a computer geek (like me) who likes trying out new apps, use a bleeding-edge distro and learn to compile for those rare apps that may not be available.
In other words, ignore the problem instead of solving it… Even though I know how to compile and handle compilation errors, it doesn’t mean I want to. I already do that at work and that’s enough.
As for the Cell processor, I believe it’s a great technology but it’s definitely not going to be exclusive to Linux. Anyway, its strength is in floating point, not in integer…
Telling the story that linux wont freeze is not true,
i am running suse 9x and it has stoped plenty of times
yeah i use both, and both crash.
Are you so flustered with people pointing out the shortcomings of Linux on the desktop that you have to bring up the Cell processor?
I have no problem discussing Linux shortcomings when the criticism is valid. The problem is that anti-Linux zealots rarely have valid criticism to make, but rather fault Linux simply for not being Windows. Hard to take this seriously.
As far as the Cell processor go, the point was that this new technology is likely to give Linux a boost since it already runs on it, and Windows may never (for political reasons, the Cell being a Sony/IBM/Toshiba joint venture).
It’s hard to take you seriously about tech, when you thought that just because some code compiles it works.
I’ve never thought that. Believe me, when I compile a build of one of our games, I don’t expect it to work all the time. I had a bad choice of words some months ago and you’ve latched on to it as something to bring up when you don’t actually have any arguments to counter my own. Pathetic, but then again I’ve come to expect little else from you.
It’s only the FSF/GNU type of people that think software is religion. These are the zealots. Rational people think of them as tools.
Then why are anti-Linux posters being irrational as well? Why are they ready to defend anything MS does, no matter what the evidence is?
It is your opinion that FSF/GNU type view software as religion, and you keep repeating it because you don’t actually have any arguments. Can’t debate? Insult! That’s the Lumbergh way.
Just for once, just once, I’d like to see post something that doesn’t contain ad hominem attacks against those who disagree with you. But it seems you’re simply incapable of that.
People that want a nice Unix desktop just go to OSX.
Then why are there as many Linux desktop as OS X ones? It seems to me people are choosing both.
“I booted into PCLinuxOS with no issue. I went into Control Center to see if it found it. It did. Now I do need to configure MythTV to really see if Linux found it correctly but my point in all of this is that there’s this impression from people that Windows is so much easier to use. Easier to install hardware.”
I would say that a lot of MythTvs and other oss tv apps code comes from dscaler which is a windows app. Not to mention that dscaler is faster, better, and much easier to install than mythtv, mostly because it includes it’s own drivers wich it loads at runtime, no need to recompile a whole kernel just to get support for you tvcard, how easier can it be?
http://www.dscaler.org
I’ve heared that they decoded 70 videos in realtime. is this true?
That’s 48 HDTV streams simultaneously.
doesn’t sound too impressive for a board with 1 gig ram and ~16 cores at 2.8GHz each.
8 cores (a single Cell processor). The 2 Cell processor demo was a different one, and it wasn’t shown at E3.
If you don’t find that impressive, then I suggest you try to do it on your system…
“I talk to Linux newcomers all the time. I was a Linux newcomer four years ago. And you know what? No one ever complained about that specific issue. No one. Not a single person.”
You and I have clearly had very different experiences, then. All the time on Linux newbie forums I see questions like: “How can I install the latest FOO? It’s not available for my distro.” And the answers are:
1) Compile from source (sigh)
2) Try a package from distro BAR (typically leads to problems)
3) Wait for FooLinux 5.0
The point is, with a properly engineered software installation system, THERE WOULDN’T BE THOSE ANSWERS. It’d be “Grab the file and double-click” a la Windows.
I’ve seen this so, so, so many times, and I’ve seen newcomers dismayed that getting a new program often involves whole distro upgrades or compiling from source (and installing development toolchains beforehand) or coercing packages from other distros into working.
And you know what? Many give up and go back to Windows. That might explain why you’ve never heard of this problem. Do you wonder why Linux only has a negligible share of the desktop market?
And in 2010 when it’s not much bigger, are you going to take these problems seriously?
“Well, except from anti-Linux posters spreading their FUD on websites.”
Don’t make assumptions. I’ve been using Linux for four years, I’ve installed many distros and am typing this from Firefox on an Ubuntu box. I love the flexibility of OSS for power-users.
But when we’re talking about desktop Linux and attracting new users, that’s entirely different. And it pains me that Microsoft’s stranglehold won’t be eroded unless painfully apparent problems aren’t solved.
I want Linux to succeed. I’m using it now and think it has fantastic potential. But if you choose to ignore these major issues, don’t come crying when Linux still has around 5% of the desktop market in 2010.
Just to clarify my point above. Here’s an approximation of an online conversation I had with a newcomer recently:
“How can I get the latest Gnumeric for my Linux system?”
“Is it available in your package repositories?”
“The what? Can’t I just download and install it?”
“Well kinda, but first you need to start up your package manager.”
“So there’s not a file I can just download and install?”
“Well, you have to see if it’s in your repositories. (Long explanation of using package manager).”
“OK, the latest version isn’t there. What can I do?”
“Well, you could compile from source. But it’ll depend on newer GNOME and GTK libraries, which are long and complicated to install.”
“Oh man. Is that it?”
“Or you could find another package for a different distro, although it probably won’t work or give you other problems.”
“WTF? Why can’t I just download a file and install it, like on other OSes? This is madness.”
“Well… It’s because… You know, you have a point. There shouldn’t be ANY of this hassle.”
See what I mean?
While I don’t plan to use GNOME anymore, there is an huge amount of software on GnomeFiles that I couldn’t find in Debian/Gentoo repositories.
Define “huge amounts” and give us some examples, please. I find that hard to believe.
In other words, ignore the problem instead of solving it… Even though I know how to compile and handle compilation errors, it doesn’t mean I want to. I already do that at work and that’s enough.
If you really need the app, then why should that be a problem?
Notice that the discussion was about “Joe User”, which you obviously aren’t. Show me a Joe User using a modern distro (i.e. Ubuntu) who has lots of troubles with software not being in the repositories, and then we’ll talk.
It’s hard to take the criticism seriously, when the conditions keep changing. One post it’s Joe User who wants a system that just works, the next post it’s someone who always wants the greatest and latest softare, even if it’s unstable. Make up your mind, guys – that’s two completely different demographics.
This is like someone saying that Linux is too complicated for normal users and then having Lumbergh saying that I’m technologically inept. Well, which is it? If I’m technologically inept, how can I use Linux?
For tech guys, you seem to have a problem with the simplest logical paradigms…
from theRegister:
—————————-
IBM demonstrated a blade server board based on the Cell architecture at the E3 show this week, and reportedly plans to sell the boards in rack-based server systems.
The board carried two Cell processors running at up to 2.8Ghz, as well as 1GB of DRAM split across two chips, according to Nikkei’s TechOn service. The demo box ran on Linux.
—————————-
did you see the link i posted?
I have no problem discussing Linux shortcomings when the criticism is valid. The problem is that anti-Linux zealots rarely have valid criticism to make, but rather fault Linux simply for not being Windows. Hard to take this seriously.
You didn’t address any of the other points I brought up, so I guess you aren’t willing to discuss them It’s hard to take you seriously.
Then why are anti-Linux posters being irrational as well? Why are they ready to defend anything MS does, no matter what the evidence is?
It is your opinion that FSF/GNU type view software as religion, and you keep repeating it because you don’t actually have any arguments. Can’t debate? Insult! That’s the Lumbergh way.
Just for once, just once, I’d like to see post something that doesn’t contain ad hominem attacks against those who disagree with you. But it seems you’re simply incapable of that.
What anti-linux posters? Are those like anti-ms posters? Of course it’s religion to the GNU/FSF zealots. It’s like getting worked up because I don’t have the schematics of my microwave. These people are completely irrational. They like being part of a “movement”. “hey guys, I run linux. I’m cool. M$ is teh su3k. Will you guys be my friends now”.
Then why are there as many Linux desktop as OS X ones? It seems to me people are choosing both.
You are incapable of knowing if that is true, as is anybody else.
And you know what? Many give up and go back to Windows.
I’d like to see some hard data on this, not simply an opinion based on personal experience (because of sample bias).
That might explain why you’ve never heard of this problem. Do you wonder why Linux only has a negligible share of the desktop market?
Linux has a share similar to that of OS X, and yet I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t say that this is problem that plagues OS X as well.
The reason why Windows is still dominant has nothing to do with the fact that some bleeding-edge versions of some programs are not available for some distros within the week they are released. It has to do with three simple factors: User intertia (most people don’t want to change, even if they’re not satisfied with what they have right now – most Windows users I know keep complaining about their PC, but are afraid to change); Application availability (mostly MS Office, Photoshop and a few other big names, as people are not always aware that the Linux alternatives are often suitable for their needs); Pre-installed OSes on new computers (most people don’t install OSes on their PCs, they just use the one that came pre-installed).
These are the real reasons why Linux adoption on the desktop is slow, not the fact that unstable bleeding-version of software X take a few weeks before they’re available for distro Y.
About the discussion you had with the newbie Linux users, perhaps you should have told him that, unlike in Windows, the “latest” version isn’t always the best one. Often it’s an unstable version that’s still buggy, and that there’s a reason why it’s not available for his distro, as it may not work properly. This is a fundamental between Windows and Linux, and one that simply requires a little education.
Don’t get me wrong: Linux is different from Windows. Some things are handled differently, however that doesn’t mean they’re not as good. If you’re dealing with a computer newbie, then it’s a good idea to set them up with Lindows or XandrOS.
Should developers use autopackage more, or others GUI-based installers (such as the Loki installer)? Sure. The cool thing about Linux is that you can actually write the developers and distro makers and tell them about your needs!
You didn’t address any of the other points I brought up, so I guess you aren’t willing to discuss them It’s hard to take you seriously.
You do that all the time as well, so I guess according to your own yardstick it’s hard to take you seriously as well.
Of course it’s religion to the GNU/FSF zealots. It’s like getting worked up because I don’t have the schematics of my microwave. These people are completely irrational. They like being part of a “movement”. “hey guys, I run linux. I’m cool. M$ is teh su3k. Will you guys be my friends now”.
Don’t you ever get tired of writing nothing else than Strawman arguments and ad hominem attacks? You’re so predictable that it’s not even funny anymore. In fact it’s downright boring.
You are incapable of knowing if that is true, as is anybody else.
There are estimates out there that place roughly both OSes at equivalent market share. If you have figures that invalidate those estimates, then please share them with us. In the meantime, I’ll give more credence to independant market research groups than to a known anti-Linux zealot…
So the question is why do you use Linux? You’ve got a job so buying XP is not a problem. Putting up a firewall/router and using FireFox pretty much negates all spyware/malware. You’re not a programmer so you don’t have much use for source code. You work at a game company which I’m assuming uses Windows for their development work, along with windows on the other desktops. What is your reason?
“Then why are there as many Linux desktop as OS X ones? It seems to me people are choosing both.
You are incapable of knowing if that is true, as is anybody else.”
Lummie in all his glorious self.
So if according to you nobody is able to know it, why do you constantly claim Linux is a failure on the desktop?
At least try to stay consistent in you trolling the next time around.
Once again, you failed to address the points I raised so we’ll have to assume that you are aware that there are problems and that you don’t want to criticize linux in anyway….as a zealot would do.
There are estimates out there that place roughly both OSes at equivalent market share.
I can estimate lots of things. That means nothing. Since anybody can just download an ISO and install it without purchasing it, you have no way of knowing how many people are running Linux on the desktop. Even if you were capable of knowing download numbers, then you wouldn’t be able to know if it’s being used as a server or what.
Don’t you ever get tired of writing nothing else than Strawman arguments and ad hominem attacks? You’re so predictable that it’s not even funny anymore. In fact it’s downright boring.
Don’t you ever get tired of not admitting the truth that there are more than a few people out there that take software way too seriously? Oh wait, as an “advocate” you couldn’t possibly do that.
Yeah, I know zealots are bitter that its 2005 and Linux on the desktop didn’t turn out the way it was “supposed” to.
Slashdork in 2000 – “It’s the year of the Linux desktop. MS is going down”
That’s the familiarity talking. Almost this whole conversation was “wahhh! It doesn’t work just like Windows! Waahh!”
“The what? Can’t I just download and install it?”
The Linux user would ask of Windows: “You mean have to start up my browser, find the site using Google, go there, and download a file, just to start an installation? That doesn’t make sense! Why can’t I just use Add/Remove programs to add the program?” He’d also ask “where is the little utility to upgrade all my programs… what do you mean I have to ugrade each one individually?”
“OK, the latest version isn’t there. What can I do?”
Now this is an interesting statement. Who, except a geek, really cares if they’ve got GAIM 1.2.3 rather than GAIM 1.2.4? Now, I can understand the user being concerned about using GAIM 0.x when GAIM 1.x is out, but no desktop distro is that out of date. But a couple of patch levels? After all, I don’t know any Windows folks who make it a point to always have the latest version of AIM (what *is* the latest version of AIM?) or Acrobat. As long as it works, who cares?
What you’ve pointed out here is not so much a weakness of Linux, but rather a failure to exploit a possible strength. In Windows, if a particular version of a program has a bug, it takes months (or a years) to get it fixed, because the release cycles of Windows software is relatively slow. On Linux, developers don’t just do major releases, but have a whole stream of minor releases and patches inbetween. There is the potential there to get fixes out to users much more quickly. However, the repository model can’t always keep up with these releases, so in practice the time between updates can be just as long as with Windows.
Now, that doesn’t call for ditching the vastly superior repository model, but rather fixing its organization. The problem is not so much getting new packages into the system (creating a new version of an existing package is pretty much as fast as recompiling it), as it is the fact that distros have moderately long release cycles during which only bug-fixes are allowed. This can be solved by seperating applications from the core, and releasing them with only independent (rather than integrated) testing. This shouldn’t affect stability, since while it is possible upgrading GNOME-libs might break the whole OS, it is unlikely that upgrading GAIM will do the same.
If you dont think that encoding all those hdtv streams which are 1920 x 1200 each….in realtime is a major processing milestone…ona a just newly created architecture…then I dont know what to tell you bud. Have your computer try and encode just 1 stream and see for yourself…
Poor ralph. The truth hurts, and obviously it hurts Roblimo too. The zealots just can’t stand that Linux on the desktop is still a miniscule, hobbyist phenomena. Oh well, Linux works well as a server, and there’s always OSX for those that want a polished desktop.
Lummie, what truth?
You just claimed that nobody can know the truth (or does that just apply if the truth is not what you want to hear in your religious zeal?)
So what truth are you talking about?
Please show me your numbers and tell me why your statement doesn’t apply to the numbers you seem to be using, whereas it applies to all other numbers.
Define “huge amounts” and give us some examples, please. I find that hard to believe.
Apart from some Mono applications like Tomboy, the most popular are in Debian. Unfortunately, newly-released or smaller ones ain’t. I don’t remember the names since I usually check out the GTK+ box at our left, click, check out some screenshots, check out if it’s in a repository, then either get it (if it’s in it) or forget it (if it isn’t). Many developers bother to packages DEB but, obviously, they are mostly interesting for Debian users, not for everybody. That is what we need to solve.
As for the slacky maintainer part I mentioned previously, Bluefish on Gentoo was a good example. It took well over nine months before the lastest version even got in the unstable branch.
If you really need the app, then why should that be a problem?
Maybe I don’t need it but I would like to check it out. I don’t want to do the dependency tracking, nor installing development packages.
Notice that the discussion was about “Joe User”, which you obviously aren’t. Show me a Joe User using a modern distro (i.e. Ubuntu) who has lots of troubles with software not being in the repositories, and then we’ll talk.
Ubuntu? A decent Java VM.
This is like someone saying that Linux is too complicated for normal users and then having Lumbergh saying that I’m technologically inept. Well, which is it? If I’m technologically inept, how can I use Linux?
For tech guys, you seem to have a problem with the simplest logical paradigms…
Chill out, dude. I merely say we need an unified way to install packages out of repositories, nothing more, nothing less. This is going to be especially important as Linux gains more popularity and we begin to have commercial software in our favourite store. The quality of FOSS increased tremedously since I began messing with Linux in 1998. Finding out a solution for this issue is just a logical step to me…
i could care less if linux is used at all, it doesnt matter to me if linux takes over the world or not. In fact I liked it better when it was even more obscure and not under so much pressure to “work right”. Seemed to be more ingenuity or innovation back when they wasnt trying so hard to clone the windows look and feel. I feel like we are slowly getting back to that but for a while there was stuck in a rut! Of course KDE will probably always be similar to windows but at least some of the other window mangers/desktop environments are starting to come out with really cool new ideas…not neccesarily saying GOOD ideas but at least we are starting to see some new thinking in the way we do everything….
But installing software in linux is not a big deal for the most part. Sometime it is troublesome but if you learn a bit about what you are doing then you are usually good to go. And windows is not better, different maybe but still has a lot of “dependency requirements” I mean heck the games my kids use to use on windows required different display settings, different directx versions, different quicktime versions, and still would crash half the time due to some conflict or problem. Installing software in linux could be easier but it usually isnt difficult and most distros come with enough software that you rarely need more than what is on the cds that you can order for a few bucks from any of the cheap cd places.
__well i hadnt posted in a while so i thought i would throw something out there__
So the question is why do you use Linux? You’ve got a job so buying XP is not a problem. Putting up a firewall/router and using FireFox pretty much negates all spyware/malware. You’re not a programmer so you don’t have much use for source code. You work at a game company which I’m assuming uses Windows for their development work, along with windows on the other desktops. What is your reason?
As a responsible consumer, I vote with my dollars. I disapprove of Microsoft’s market practices, so I don’t use my purchasing power to support their OS business. That’s one reason.
Another reason is that Linux works just as well, and has tons of high-quality open-source software available (not shareware, which more often than not is crippleware).
Another reason is that I find dealing with anti-Virus and anti-Spyware programs annoying. With Linux I don’t have to.
Another reason is that it’s important to support alternatives to dominant technologies when those technologies are owned by a single company. This is just being a responsible citizen: too much power in the hands of a single entity is never a good thing.
Another reason is that I like customizing my system without having to purchase or download add-ons that often bring bloat and unstability to the system.
Another reason is that, even though I’m not a programmer, computing is a hobby for me and Linux has taught me more about computers than any other OS so far. And even though I don’t need to have access to the source, I’m happy that it’s there for others to tinker with, modify and improve.
Finally, personal preference: to me, KDE 3.4 is a much better desktop than Win XP is. That’s totally subjective, of course, but to me that’s the essence of freedom – to be able to use the product you prefer, whether the reasons for doing so are serious or frivolous.
BTW, I use both Windows and Linux. For that matter, we also use *nix tools at our game company (with Cygwin) and we have a couple of Linux servers. We have a couple of Mac OS X machines (for sound, of course). I’m not anti-Windows, I just don’t like when people say false things about Linux to push their pro-Windos agendas.
if we have a unified way of installing software and lets say i dont like it or I want to do something crazy with it but the unified way wont let me then where does that leave me at? How does that make me happy? I prefer having a choice! I like to apt-get everything unless I want to purposefully do soemthing I shouldnt then I want to sneak it in under the radar, or like with skipstone, i want to make my own browser that i use and i want it linked against phoenix5 then no unified way of installing something is going to work for that. That is why I think it is up to every distro to satisfy their customers and provide their own individual way of software installation and if you dont like one way then try another and another. I have tried most and apt is the coolest IMO and nothing keeps me from using a rpm or compiling or even a installer or like with phoenix a zip file. Heck as I said I even wrote my own little one click installer for my favorite programs just to seee how hard it was and it was eazy breeezy using scripts to run apt and/or dpkg… __yea another post__
Ok, I’ll buy that list. But obviously you are anti-windows and an advocate. And you still haven’t addressed the points I’ve raised, so we’ll have to conclude that they are valid and you just don’t want to admit any flaws with Linux.
Once again, you failed to address the points I raised so we’ll have to assume that you are aware that there are problems and that you don’t want to criticize linux in anyway….as a zealot would do.
Again, you do this all the time yourself, therefore by your own admission you are a zealot.
In case you haven’t noticed, I’m concurrently responding to others despite of you. And as it happens I’m at work today, so my time is limited. Therefore, I am concise in my responses and focus on part of your posts only. That doesn’t mean I don’t have answers, just that I’m not particularly interested on spending time on those particular issues.
Don’t you ever get tired of not admitting the truth that there are more than a few people out there that take software way too seriously? Oh wait, as an “advocate” you couldn’t possibly do that.
Once again, you failed to respond to the question I asked so we’ll have to assume that you are aware that I identified a clear problem with your debating style and now try to draw attention away from it by responding with a question of your own.
Sure there are people out there that take software too seriously. However, in my opinion they are evenly divided between Windows, Linux and Mac OS X. There are zealots on all sides, though if one was to read only this thread they’d think that Microsoft does indeed have the lion’s share of them.
I’ve responded to your question, now respond to mine. Don’t you get tired of constantly resorting to Strawman arguments and ad hominem attacks?
The zealots just can’t stand that Linux on the desktop is still a miniscule, hobbyist phenomena.
Please give us numbers that show that there are less desktop Linux PCs than Mac OSX PCs, or kindly shut up. By your own admission there’s now way to know, therefore there is not rational basis for this statement. There’s plenty of irrational basis for it, though, and we all know how you like logical fallacies, seeing the number of times you resort to Strawman arguments and ad hominem attacks…
Ok, I’ll buy that list. But obviously you are anti-windows and an advocate.
I’m an advocate, but I’m not anti-Windows. I’m critical of Microsoft, but I’m able to distinguish between the company and the product. Also, I have to say that the Xbox people are very nice to developers (I guess they have to if they ever want to seriously challenge Sony).
And you still haven’t addressed the points I’ve raised, so we’ll have to conclude that they are valid and you just don’t want to admit any flaws with Linux.
Oh, give it a rest, will you? You don’t answer some of MY points, and I don’t make a big fuss about it just to save face!
You are right. There is no way of knowing, so we’ll just have to conclude that 99% of the people that are running computers are using Vic20s and there are 3 people in the world running windows on the desktop. We can conclude that there are about 20 people in the world running Linux (those that have actually bought a boxed CD, and therefore a verifiable number).
Answer my points, then I’ll answer yours (whatever they are). I gave a list for mine.
if someone wants to try a package that isnt included in their distro then chances are it is too new to be considered and more than likey the only reason they want it is becauase they dont realize there are numerous other similar software packages that are already in their distro and would suite them fine…. __running out of steam here__
The package problem is the dependency problem. If I put a deb on website, someone downloads it, they still have to manually get the dependencies (to my knowledge).
It would be nice if you could download a deb/rpm click on it, and the dependencies would automagically be resolved and installed.
Or maybe some kind of distributed system with strong security.
Developers shouldn’t be at mercy of respository maintainers.
You are assuming way too much. “Chances are” that a newer version works better than an older version. And you are in no position to know what people need. Instead of acknowledging that there are better ways, you’re grasping at straws to defend the repository status quo.
So the answer to “perfect-solution-doesn’t-exist-in-repository” is “use-something-else-even-if-it-would-be-inferior”? Doesn’t sound any good at all!
dependency problems hardly exist unless you are truly trying to muck with your system, yes it use to be more of a problem especially with rpm based systems but debian is super when it comes to that!
If you are installing a deb using apt it will handle all of that….
What I do is keep a huge list of repositories in my sources file and keep most commented out, i then try to get a package i want from debian, then depending on what I am doing and using, from backports, then from peoples repositories… but you could actually use pinning and that would probably handle it even better….
Typically, you have to use non-standard tools to find out when a dependancy is no longer need. apt-get remove “blah” or emerge remove doesn’t seem to be able to figure out that a library is no longer needed by a certain program. It seems to get it somewhat right for some things, but not others. So you have scripts that people hack up (at least in gentoos case) to clean out the cruft on your system.
I think the GoboLinux guys are working on something new so you actually know what libraries belong to what.
encoding or decoding?
if they were encoding them, than yes, impressive.
but decoding them is not so impressive.
don’t forget that they used a total of 44.8GHz (933MHz per video) on an for such tasks optimised chip.
Yes, it’s nice that they built this chip, but thats about it.
IIRC MassPar has had a 32core chip at the time of the first pentium. THAT was impressive. was…
Answer my points, then I’ll answer yours (whatever they are). I gave a list for mine.
Jeez, I can’t believe this. All right, what were your other points again?
so does everyone use bleeding edge beta software… if so you need to run over to yahoo quick cause they just uploaded then newest BETA version of yahoo messenger of course some fo the features seem to be screwed up but hey ITS NEW so go NOWWWWW!
No i am saying that the version that you more than likely should be using is right there on the cd or in the repository so if you want the latest bleeding edge beta version then go ahead and muck up your system trying to install it. I VERY rarely need the bleeding edge version.
So big difference between the NEW version which is in debian sarge and the ouch you might get hurt SID version and of course just released use at your own risk EXPERIMENTAL version….
Very few distros are not VERY up to date on the software. But a few are trying to fix the very problem you speak of and have each installed package have its very own library versions… I just dont see the need myself!
What’s the record?
eugenia would post a bunch of new stuff and get this moved off the main page
How long will this thread go… 
encoding or decoding?
It was decoding. But we’re talking about HDTV here, that’s a lot of information to decode at 60 fps! Having 48 streams playing at the same time, on the same screen, without dropping frames is quite impressive in my book.
However, the real impressive demo was the one at Sony’s booth, shown behind closed doors. I didn’t wait for 2 and a half hours to see it, but it’s available on the web:
http://media.ps3.ign.com/media/748/748505/vids_1.html
Check the third movie for proof that it was live…they had to provide proof, as the first movie looked like it was rendered.
but decoding them is not so impressive.
don’t forget that they used a total of 44.8GHz (933MHz per video) on an for such tasks optimised chip.
You don’t find the possibility of getting 44.8GHz machines at competitive prices within the next 2-3 years impressive? I do!
so what software that you need isnt somewhere in the 10 sarge cds? heck it may be more than that i only download the first few… I know my mandrake10 powerpack had about 10 cds as well and I never had a problem with any of the packages on there…
Actually, it’s 18:00 and I’d like to spend some time outside today (working on a Saturday sucks, but I’ve got two simultaneous projects to handle). You can repost your points but I’ll only answer them later tonight.
You were the one to respond to my post and my points. Go back to around 226-240.
10 CDs are in most cases 8-9 CDs of bloat, and you are still locked into your distribution. Good if the distributor sorted core or “popular” packages onto the first CDs …
Here it is. http://osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=10691&offset=135&rows=150#379…
“You don’t find the possibility of getting 44.8GHz machines at competitive prices within the next 2-3 years impressive? I do!”
from a commercial point of view its impressive, but i’m talking about the engineering part.
and i don’t really know what videos they played. if it was something encoded from a movie (most likely because sony has a lot of them) then they are 24fps. what kind of audio did the videos have (dts, dd, mp3, stereo, mono, none?)?
you can be sure that they selectet the videos so that they don’t need too much proccessing power (so that they could play more of them simultan) so it’s most likely that you wont be able to reproduce their results with an average hdtv-file. how do you know that they didn’t had framedrops?
if you know a good source about the demo please let me know.
for what sony showed:
how could they have done it without a gpu? iirc someone from nvidia said that it’s not yet availabel as silicon.
afaik only 2 demos where rendert in realtime. one of those was based on the u3 engine. and what i’ve heard it didn’t look better than the x360 edition.
“Who, except a geek, really cares if they’ve got GAIM 1.2.3 rather than GAIM 1.2.4?”
Er, lots of people? What if GAIM 1.2.4 fixes a bug that’s affecting a particular user?
What if it repairs protocol breakage?
What if GAIM 1.3 supports a new protocol that the user wants, but he/she can’t download it because the distro only offers security and data-loss bugfixes?
To get that new feature, the user has to wait 6 months to upgrade the whole distro? Or mess around trying to compile from source (and new dependencies that it requires)?
You really don’t see that as a problem?
thats just it the popular/important packages are are the first cd and it goes from there… only considered bloat if you actually load them on your system and you dont use them, whereas if someone wanted anon-proxy it would be on down on the important list but certainly important to that person…
Locked into what? 20000 packages…. boy that is a tight box? especially consider you can still go outside your distro preferred method of software installation if you REALLY need something! for example i like useing the ipmasq package because it is simply the easiest way to setup connection sharing so i force in it and it works on linspire as well as xandros and knoppix….
—“Er, lots of people? What if GAIM 1.2.4 fixes a bug that’s affecting a particular user?
What if it repairs protocol breakage?
What if GAIM 1.3 supports a new protocol that the user wants, but he/she can’t download it because the distro only offers security and data-loss bugfixes?”—
nope wait a few days and it will be somewhere on the net in a deb and if that is the only update then it wont require new libraries or cause conflicts or more than likely most distros will offer it in a update or so forth…
and how likely is this going to occur? so you see this affecting a lot of people? i would personally just recommend one of the other twenty chat clients that are out there and probably sitting right there on the cd or in the repository
what happens on XP when programA requires directx10 but you know directx10 conflicts with programB, or your video card isnt supportted by directx10 only directx9 or needs service pack 2 but you know that programC will crap out if you use it. Or gameA requires quicktime 4 but gameB will flicker like crazy if you install qt4 because it use qt2? And nothing is worse than the this game must be run in 16bit color mode but this game here requires TRUE COLOR and so forth… Ever explained to your 5 year old who cant read what the message means and how to fix it???
ZzZzZz … I am having a hard time keeping up with the Win drones.
I didn’t read the parent post (since I don’t even know where it is, thanks to the lack of threads), but is everyone critical of Linux a Win drone? Just to be sure.
it wwould be cool if osnews did threaded views but then we would have thousands of posts if you could actually keep up with individual discussions/arguments
just to be clear i use both windows and linux and i had to learn both and find them both fairly easy to use, i would say the big difference to me is when something doesnt work right in windows then it is generally unfixable whereas there is always a workaround in linux for everything
dscaler is not a TV app for windows, it is an interlacer….
also linux tv apps are not “taken” from Windows apps, that simply will not work…
lastly…
mythtv is not a TV app, it is a fully fledged entertainment system, that includes dvd player, audio cd player, graphics viewer, divx viewer, tv veiwer/recorder/scheduler, MAME front end etc etc etc
do a little research
Who, except a geek, really cares if they’ve got GAIM 1.2.3 rather than GAIM 1.2.4?
Well, nevermind that Gaim is a piece of crap, but assuming I actually used it, I looked back and past versions to see what kind of bugs were fixed:
v1.3.0
Fixes for two remotely exploitable crash bugs
v1.2.0
Yahoo file receiving and buddy icon receiving work again.
v1.1.4
Fixed a bug where Yahoo! would lose messages (and any other packet
really)
I dunno … many of the new versions seem to fix pretty significant bugs, so I would personally like to have them ASAP.
nope wait a few days and it will be somewhere on the net in a deb
Ahhh, ‘somewhere in the net on a deb’, huh? Well, that certainly narrows it down
and if that is the only update then it wont require new libraries or cause conflicts or more than likely most distros will offer it in a update or so forth…
Or at least you hope so …
okay, if it can somehow stop your whining, here are my responses.
No common crossdistro installer. People need to be able to install apps off of random websites and not be stuck in distro repository universe
I think we’ve covered this one quite a bit. My conclusion is that developers can use graphical installers if they want, otherwise the “repository universe” is overall a better solution for 99% of users.
Drivers: probably will always be a problem and a huge showstopper. People need to be able to buy hardware with linux drivers on the CD with a easy installation mechanism.
Well, that’s the responsibility of the ISVs, isn’t. Some, like Epson and Samsung, already provide drivers. But the point is largely moot as the kernel drivers already cover virtually all modern hardware. As you would do with any piece of hardware, the smart thing is to make sure that the hardware works well in Linux (a simple Google search will confirm this).
So far, installing Linux on about a dozen computers, I’ve only had problems with one piece of hardware. I’ve had similar problems with WinXP as well, btw.
Of course there is no stable driver ABI in the kernel so that’s anothe problem
I’ll let someone who’s more familiar with this answer.
Speed improvments: Look at all the java developers that still use Windows as their development platform. Eclipse, IDEA, and Netbeans all tend to run faster and better than on linux. Not to mention all the crossplatform apps like FireFox that tend to run faster on Window.
From a user’s point of view, I see no significant speed advantage for Windows.
No standard toolkit: Not a big as of a problem as the previous examples, but ISVs need to know that something higher level than Xlib is going to be on all systems.
This is a false problem, as someone already pointed out. Ther are multiple toolkits on Windows and on Mac as well. Apps do not have a consistent look on Windows (just look at the save dialog in Photoshop and compare it to the one used in Office). So this issue (which has virtually no provable impact on productivity) affects ALL OSes, not just Linux.
Better developer tools: Developers need high quality IDEs that are like VS or Delphi.
I’m not a programmer, so I can’t respond to this, though I must say that the Kdevelop and QTDesigner tutorials I checked out were quite impressive.
There, satisfied?
Erm. MythTV is a PVR. Dscaler is a small app for displaying captured video. They’re really not comparable. Yes, some Linux apps for displaying TV take some deinterlacing code and ideas from dscaler. This is how open source software is supposed to work, after all. But you don’t use MythTV and dscaler to do the same job. If you have to compare dscaler to something, compare it to tvtime.
Here’s the link to the article about the Cell streaming 48 mpeg2 videos:
http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20050425/104149/
As for the PS3 demo, it was indeed live, as the presenter demonstrated by rotating and moving through the scene. Since NVIDIA’s new GPU isn’t finished yet, the used a similar product for the demo. From an article on the subject:
“Burkett discussed how NVIDIA and Sony had used an upcoming product with many similar capabilities to the RSX to demonstrate the capabilities of the Playstation 3 GPU. The demos at the show were running on NVIDIA’s upcoming high-end desktop part, and also SLI systems.”
http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2005/05/25/rsx_still_in_development/
And for having seen movie of both demos, the PS3 was indeed the more impressive. Don’t get me wrong, I think the Xbox360 is a cool machine, and will be easier to develop for, but the PS3 is clearly the superior machine.
I find it quite telling that all the posts in the moderated section are from pro-MS posters. If Linux users are the ones allegedly animated by “religious” fervor, then why are the Windows advocates the ones who make abusive posts (yes, I know, Moulinneuf hasn’t participated in this dicussion, so it does skew the results…)
Debian has a tool for finding no-longer-needed packages called ‘deborphan’. On Mandriva, we have urpmi_rpm-find-leaves (crap name, I know, rafael is renaming it soon).
“I didn’t read the parent post (since I don’t even know where it is, thanks to the lack of threads), but is everyone critical of Linux a Win drone? Just to be sure.”
Yes. Just like everyone critical of Windows is a drooling ‘zealot’ who goes to sleep cuddling their RMS doll every night. This is OSNews, remember.
talking gaim then no prob
looks like they have rpms, no problem, as well as source, autopackage, and lookie what ya know
1.2 is in sarge and 1.3 is in unstable so since i have sarge on a box right now i just download then 1.3 deb in unstable and pop it in and away i go….
or using apt and pinning i could do it just as easy…
oh and i have 1.1 running on debian woody which was released in 2002 i think it was….
of course GAIM is usually broke in one way or another and that is the p rice you pay for trying to keep a “all protocol” chat client up and going…
I mean all those versions you mention have been in the past year or so i believe…
So Watcher, you are a memeber of Windows “Team99” (or whatever it is called) of astroturfers then, I take it?
“You can install Windows 2000, and simply double-click new software for years to come, without having to change your current apps or upgrade the OS.”
No, you can’t. Bzzt, wrong. I gave you myriad examples of this. Each new update of Windows breaks many, many applications. And what is worse, when an application breaks on Windows, you have to pay $$$ for an upgrade.
An upgrade on Linux is trivial, and costs nothing. If you want to do it via grabbing a new set of CDROMs, that is fine, or you can do it on-line overnight by entering a single command and letting it go.
“You can’t do that with Linux.”
Yes you can, and with far less trouble too.
“There’s no central packaging format”
Don’t need one. One packaging format per distribution works fine.
“dependencies are a nightmare and just to get one new app running you have to upgrade hundreds of libraries”
Upgrading is automatic and vastly easier to do and manage (even remotely) than installing service packs on Windows.
“or your entire distro.”
Also easy to do. I keep /home in a separate partition – so I can upgrade my distro or even swap between distro’s easily, with no loss of data or functionality. Do it all the time. Takes up maybe 20 minutes each time – far, far less time than trying to install a new Windows does, and far far less likely to break applications or lose user data.
“If you’re happy with your current OS but missing one app, that’s terrible.”
… yet it is immesurably better, faster, simpler and cheaper than the Windows alternatives, go figure.
“Sorry to say but many distros may not have the needed files that the app my need”
Yes, so you do “apt-get install application” (or the equivalent for other distros) and all needed files are downloaded and installed for you.
“in order to isntall or those needed files may be located in a different directories depending which distro is being use. the user would have to search the net for those
missing files or tell the app where to look for them within the distro before the user starts to compile the app from source code.”
No, not required. Please try to keep up. Package Managers and on-line repositories remove the need to do any of this.
“if the user was lucky he/she found a package of the app for their distro yeah right somebody actually compile every app for every distro i don’t think so.”
Strangely enough, for open source applications, people do exactly this. There are 17000 packages in the Debian repositories where people have done exactly this.
Your not believing it happens doesn’t actually mean that it doesn’t happen. Sorry that the real world shatters your illusions like that.
For closed-source applications for Linux – all that is needed is for the provider to compile it and package it with slightly differing options about four different times – once each for RedHat, SuSe, Mandrake and Debian. Nearly every Linux distribution out there will then be able to use one or other of those packages.
Your reverse challenge for Windows:
1. Find out how many computers out of the millions with Windows 98 installed can run Office 2003 or Media Player 9.
2. Work out how many times more difficult and expensive it is to try and get those computers updated to be able to run Office 2003 or Media Player 9 than it is to get any Linux computer to run any combination of applications that you care to mention.
I would not try to install linux if the hardware was not older than a year. If you install your new hardware on windows, you get drivers, if you are on linux you get shit…
273 comments on this topic? Give it a bloody rest, will you?
Your reverse challenge for Windows:
1. Find out how many computers out of the millions with Windows 98 installed can run Office 2003 or Media Player 9.
That would be zero. The difference between my challenge and yours is that I’m not claiming what you’re proposing is actually possible.
2. Work out how many times more difficult and expensive it is to try and get those computers updated to be able to run Office 2003 or Media Player 9 than it is to get any Linux computer to run any combination of applications that you care to mention.
Well, Win98 is a 7-year old OS that dates back to 1998. Assuming you bought a bleeding edge machine back in the day, you’d probably have a P3-450 w/about 128MB of RAM. Assuming you already had Office 2k3 (you were trying to install it, right?), get another 128MB stick of RAM (which goes for what, about $30? + $100 for the XP home upgrade and you’re all set.
A follow-up to my previous post …
Since you mentioned Office 2k3 as opposed to earlier versions of Office, I assume then that the user has a particular need to run this particular version of Office. So, if he really HAS to run this app, he’s got two choices …
1. Upgrade to either WInXP or Win2k and his hardware (if necessary), or …
2. Format his hard drive, install Linux, and …. er, wait … Linux doesn’t run Office 2003 does it? Yup, once again, Linux proves itself to be pointless
linux doesnt run office 2003, and windows cant run the 20000 packages that are sitting in a debian repository…. sheesh how pointless is windows
hardware older than a year? come on, a couple years ago and I would agree with you but anymore it usually isnt a problem…
the coolest thing is the driver will be built into the distro you are using and will work whereas with windows you have to go and search and try to find the correct one, and anymore the one that is WDM compliant or whatever it is. Case in point my MSI nvidia card four different drivers on the cd just for the OS I use only one is WDM and it is OLD, but the newer ones dont work. IF you can find a working one at all – I dont know how many people bring me their computer and have that crappy cheap PCTEL modem and you could spend hours searching for the right driver and still never find one that actually works. Probably run into more driver issues in windows than linux anymore!
I think we’ve covered this one quite a bit. My conclusion is that developers can use graphical installers if they want, otherwise the “repository universe” is overall a better solution for 99% of users.
Nope, it’s not. But since Linux has a miniscule desktop market share maybe it doesn’t matter at this time.
Well, that’s the responsibility of the ISVs, isn’t. Some, like Epson and Samsung, already provide drivers. But the point is largely moot as the kernel drivers already cover virtually all modern hardware.
It’s a linux kernel problem when there is not a stable module ABI that ISVs can hook into with binary modules. And no, kernel drivers do not cover virtually all modern hardware…not even close. Until someone can plug in a digital camera have a little popup telling them to install the CD or automagically install the driver, then mainstream linux on the desktop will never happen.
As you would do with any piece of hardware, the smart thing is to make sure that the hardware works well in Linux (a simple Google search will confirm this).
Nope. People don’t care about that and won’t be doing searches on the internet just to see if it’s linux compatible. Are we talking about BeOS here? Two sentences back you said that Linux handles almost al modern hardware. Make up your mind.
I’ll let someone who’s more familiar with this answer.
Well, it is a problem for hardware manufacturers. That’s why you still have lots of wireless cards and other hardware with no linux drivers, and because you have to go through crap to get a binary driver in the kernel, manufacturers just won’t go through the trouble. But of course, per your suggestion Uncle Joe can shop around for Linux compatible hardware and hope he can figure out how to get driver support in the kernel.
From a user’s point of view, I see no significant speed advantage for Windows.
Invariably programs like Eclipse, IDEA, and netbeans run a lot better on windows.
This is a false problem, as someone already pointed out. Ther are multiple toolkits on Windows and on Mac as well. Apps do not have a consistent look on Windows (just look at the save dialog in Photoshop and compare it to the one used in Office). So this issue (which has virtually no provable impact on productivity) affects ALL OSes, not just Linux.
Most linux zealots don’t want to confront the issue. But Xlib is a lot lower level than the win32api. There’s really no comparison. Those toolkits you discuss usually leverage much of the win32 api. Xlib is way too low level. And frankly, not having a standard toolkit at the very least has hurt Linux a lot. But since zealots don’t consider it a problem nothing ever gets done to fix it
I’m not a programmer, so I can’t respond to this, though I must say that the Kdevelop and QTDesigner tutorials I checked out were quite impressive.
Kdevelop is Ok as far as an open source IDE developed with no corporate backing. But it’s not even in the same league with Visual Studio. Eclipse might have the chance as a sort of universal IDE, but linux performance has always been lousy. SWT looks nice, but was never the speed demon that people thought native widgets would bring.
And since you work for a gaming company, you understand that absolutely nobody is even thinking about targetting linux yet. If we would take what you said earlier about OSX and Linux having similiar market shares on the desktop then why are there so many games for Macs. I will tell you why and you should already know why. Linux is a support nightmare with 8,000 distros with various kernels, various apis, various bits here and there missing.
My buddy’s nforce3 system has been running line for I think 8 months now. Even his Radeon 9800Pro has worked. I had to help him with a couple distributions he tried but yea I don’t know what you’re talking about. HP just announced support in Europe for a large selection of brand new laptops. Most Mac’s are supported immediately after release or within a month, which is pretty good since Apple does NOTHING to help. Every computer you buy from companies like ASL Labs will be immediately supported. Clusters from companies like Atipa. All those smaller groups reselling basically DIY boxes with Linux preinstalled. Microtel PC’s (cheap junkers). Oh those $100 thin clients (if you buy xyz thousand) as recently published on slashdot. SGI machines. Many HP severs, IBM servers, and I think even Sun servers!
Yea, don’t try to run Linux on a new computer!
ABI’s and ISV’s and all that jazz: It’s called a wrapper. See nvidia.com. It’s not hard, it’s actually a pretty simple procedure.
Hardware compat., BeOS and google. Actually people do do it. Ordinary people, they’re called Macintosh owners. I know, they’re a crazy lot. They research products before buying, what a thought! Really though, BeOS is a bit of a stretch don’t ya think? In it’s hay-day it didn’t support the current market as wholly as Linux does today. It’s a tired argument really, all people do this with Windows parts today: You know that windows logo on the box…People look at it. You may have noticed Linux logos appearing there sometimes lately..
“Invariably programs like Eclipse, IDEA, and netbeans run a lot better on windows. ”
So you’re saying Java runs better on Windows? I’m not sure what IDEA is, beyond a UI acronym. However Eclipse is a Java IDE written using a toolkit I forget the name of that uses native toolkits. There’s almost infinite argument over this and that about that idea alone. Netbeans is an IDE written in Java using Swing, which until recently was loathed by many of its users for being sooooooo slow. I can’t contest this, but my sources have told me Eclipse is resource hungry no matter what
. And I have to agree from my very brief experience seeing if it could be useful for c coding.
“Most linux zealots don’t want to confront the issue. But Xlib is a lot lower level than the win32api. There’s really no comparison. Those toolkits you discuss usually leverage much of the win32 api. Xlib is way too low level. And frankly, not having a standard toolkit at the very least has hurt Linux a lot. But since zealots don’t consider it a problem nothing ever gets done to fix it”
You don’t understand how the OSS development community works. But I’ll start with the technical problems. Xlib is very low level, and it’s the bottleneck that connects the multiple toolkits on X11 platforms. It’s the reason one can basically run KDE and Gnome at the same time on the same x server on the same screen. KDE which uses QT (trolltech’s toolkit, apparently troll is a common theme for Norwegian companies) and Gnome (Guh-nome) which uses GTK (GIMP Tool Kit). These two very different toolkits come with their own baggage, but they actually work beautifully next to each other. Yea, they never look exactly the same, but no one really cares (and I mean no one). The most abnoxious difference in day to day use is this: They put the ok and cancel buttons in different spots by default. Like, no, that’s the end of the world! Well that’s it, I’m switching!
Now, your failings in understanding OSS development. It’s not pushed by zealouts, and it’s not always even done by zealouts. Many OSS devs are quiet people who believe sites like this are for idiots. Some are vocal, and they run their mouths off constantly. But most zealouts aren’t doing major development. Their contribution usually comes in the form of support (they help other people with troubles and questions).
Secondly, OSS development, contrary to popular belief, is often driven by user request. Usually if it’s by developers and for developers it’s because the non-developer users aren’t chiming in their requests.
Third, many contributions to OSS are done by people being paid to do it. Companies like RedHat which have been supporting OSS developers for years.
And fourth, your concerns about many of these issues have been worked on for a couple years now by a group formed to deal with desktop issues. freedesktop.org I think.
“Kdevelop is Ok as far as an open source IDE developed with no corporate backing. But it’s not even in the same league with Visual Studio. Eclipse might have the chance as a sort of universal IDE, but linux performance has always been lousy. SWT looks nice, but was never the speed demon that people thought native widgets would bring.”
I actually never liked kdevelop
. I don’t see what seperates it from an overgrown editor. Anyway, I’ve never been big on IDE’s I guess. A seperate debugger is fine as long as it’s good. And a compiler controlled seperately is fine as long as its controls are good. And a seperate editor is good, as long as it complete my functions and names and tells me what the function is (parameter lists).
“And since you work for a gaming company, you understand that absolutely nobody is even thinking about targetting linux yet. If we would take what you said earlier about OSX and Linux having similiar market shares on the desktop then why are there so many games for Macs. I will tell you why and you should already know why. Linux is a support nightmare with 8,000 distros with various kernels, various apis, various bits here and there missing.”
No one is targeting Mac either. Wow that was a shocker. Here’s a bigger shocker: Many games don’t target Windows. Wow, let me give you an example of a famous game that made a fortune: Grand Theft Auto. Yea, Playstations aren’t Windows. My amazement never ceases with Windows users belief that they are the center of the game universe. Hardly, can you even play any of those cool Nintendo games? No (illegal emulators and ROMS are cheating
).
Linux likely does have as many users as Mac (by global percentages). But the trouble is these are different crowds. Mac users are people who have money and are willing to part with it; really they are. They buy a new OS every 12-18 months, they spend twice to three times as much on their hardware even if it lasts that much longer (not likely, most people end up bored and shift anyway). It does have lower depreciation, but that doesn’t make up for the cost difference. Linux users on the other hand spread the spectrum from having money to having no money; from speaking English in the US to speaking something in somewhere else. They run anything from Intel x86 procs to Compaq and DEC Alpha’s! The latter alone could be a major support issue, that is except that there are only a couple of really viable gaming platforms today (for people with $1,000-$4,000 to spend) and that is Mac and Intel-x86. Actually, I take that back, there’s a third but it supports Intel-x86. So that doesn’t make support a nightmare. So why is it so hard? Because every dist has different binaries? Ok, build all your libs in statically, that solves that.
That’s probably why many games have come out as native Linux (not as many as I’d like, but the proof of concept and practical occurance is there; the argument is over, the pudding is being eaten): UT2K4, Doom3, Quake3 (notice this is old and still works), etc.
These are tired arguments that have been addressed again and again and again. And the same rebuttal comes back: Then why isn’t Linux getting a large percentage of the latest games. And here is your answer: Why is gas $2 a gallon? I know it’s not an answer, the point if that there is about 45 different workable explanations and so it’s pointless to latch onto one of them. But things, and not men, change.
Dep cleaning:
Hmmm, I’m unsure about dpkg but I know my favourite package manager (pacman) tracks when applications are needed by something. I suppose I could write a very simple script to print all the libs I don’t need (although if I run the right commands I can uninstall with deps). But if I look at package info I get to see all the pkg’s that need the pkg.
I *think* RPM does this too. Well, I know they all do, but I’m not sure if it displays it.
Anyway, I think the worst I’ve ever seen my wasted space due to unused libraries get was less than the space SP2 wastes on my disk (500ish MB). Is there some way to clean that out?
“As a responsible consumer, I vote with my dollars.”
That’s wonderful to hear. I wish all people who don’t think like you would listen, it’s just wonderful to hear a true free market consumer exists! I know I sound sarcastic, but seriously I wish everyone had this attitude about spending money! The world would be a better place by far!
The world would be a better place by far!
For whom?The shareholders and captains of industry?
Linux use has spread massively on the desktop since I’ve been using it (a couple years). Have you read about the companies who’ve taken it up? That city in Germany? Countries outside the US? It’s gonna be slow in the US of course, people here still believe the incandescent light bulb is the best. Macintosh use has spread quite a bit too, partially because they had the best laptops out for consumers for quite a while and partially but to a smaller extent at the cost of linux (I’ve seen people switch from linux to Mac, usually that means they have 4 linux boxes they barely use and a powerbook).
I gauge the increase mostly by the newb site I spend time on. Justlinux.org. It’s gotten a lot dumber over the past year or so because it’s been inundated by newbs! And it’s great to see. And many get frustrated. They say “compile is bad, I should never compile!” Other’s say “ya know, if you’d just said tar -x, cd, ./configure, make install clean I’d have done it and never cared but my concern comes from that word; compile.” And still others say “no, I think I won’t listen to the first guy who responds to me on an internet forum but will instead wait for more suggestions and take the one that appears to be the best (sounds smart huh!).
And btw, there is a clicky packager. It’s called autopackage I think. It seems to work pretty well.
So once again, people say “these problems aren’t being solved.” But many are, but problem solving doesn’t happen overnight. Even Unix took a month to design
.
Nope, it’s not. But since Linux has a miniscule desktop market shareNope, it’s not.
Maybe you should actually try providing an argument instead of just saying “Nope, it’s not”. As both a Linux and a Windows user, I find the repository system to be very efficient. It is much simpler than having to hunt down apps, following links upon link to get to the download (when not put into a waiting queue), then having to go to the file location, clicking on the icon and following instructions. Package managers make updating software a breeze. Sure, it’s different, but different doesn’t mean inferior. In this case, it means better for most applications. Commercial applications, games and some other software can be installed with their own installers (like Codeweaver’s variation of the Loki installer, which is cross-platform), so Linux really has the best of both worlds here.
And no, kernel drivers do not cover virtually all modern hardware…not even close.
Have you taken a look at hardware compatibility lists recently? I don’t think you have. The vast majority of hardware is supported.
Until someone can plug in a digital camera have a little popup telling them to install the CD or automagically install the driver, then mainstream linux on the desktop will never happen.
Funny, when I plug in a USB digital camera on my Linux laptop, there’s no need to install a driver: the camera’s icon appears automatically on the desktop. You know, if you’re going to criticize Linux, you should try to keep up a little.
And frankly, not having a standard toolkit at the very least has hurt Linux a lot.
Uh, no it hasn’t, not anymore than it has hurt Windows, the MacOSes or any other OS, for that matter. Stop inventing problems where there are none just to further your own agenda.
And since you work for a gaming company, you understand that absolutely nobody is even thinking about targetting linux yet. If we would take what you said earlier about OSX and Linux having similiar market shares on the desktop then why are there so many games for Macs. I will tell you why and you should already know why. Linux is a support nightmare with 8,000 distros with various kernels, various apis, various bits here and there missing.
Lots of Mac games? Where? I think you’re a bit out of touch with the current state of the game industry. Let me educate you a little.
For your information, the PC gaming market is dwindling. Apart from a few big names like Blizzard, Id and Bioware, there are fewer and fewer titles coming out for Windows. At E3, PC games amounted for less than 10% of what was presented (probably closer to 5%). Less and less game companies are targetting the PC platform. In that context, no one expects to see much of an increase in Linux or Mac games either.
But you should know that, despite your dubious claims, it isn’t any more difficult to support games on Linux than on Windows. When Bioware released Neverwinter Nights, they had a single set of binaries for all Linux distros, and it worked quite well. That’s because games – especially OpenGL ones – rely on very few system libraries.
With counter-arguments such as these, I’m beginning to understand why you so often resort to personal attacks and strawmen…
Please explain your conclusion? It doesn’t make any sense. He said he votes with his dollars by buying products from companies he believes are responsible and have a good product; how does that benefit shareholders and CEO’s? That kind of shopping kills scummy CEO’s, they have to be honest to succeed. And shareholders have to act like real investors, instead of making money on the rise and falls of companies. Because consumers who buy the best product from the best company aren’t going to shift around to whoever has the best marketing campaign.
“Until someone can plug in a digital camera have a little popup telling them to install the CD or automagically install the driver, then mainstream linux on the desktop will never happen. ”
Oh come on. It doesn’t work that way on anything! Even Mac isn’t that pretty. Windows certainly isn’t! I know, I still have to make sure my mouse and keyboard are plugged into the same .. usb .. port for them to work! I know, it’s a fluke of my setup, but it’s a fluke nonetheless (no big deal, but since we’re being rediculous).
Nun a moo is right though, if it’s Freely supported hardware and they’re using hotplug (most distro’s do these days) it will just work. Just like in Windows XP if it was made before the last service pack!
Maybe we should just go back to all-in-one’s with ROM’s so people can’t make rediculous claims about what computers should do as a minimum. It’s a great idea you have, but it’s certainly not a minimum.
Please explain your conclusion? It doesn’t make any sense
I sure will try to.
He said he votes with his dollars
I’m a optimist so i give him the benefit of the doubt,i guess he meant he uses his brain first and than waves with the do in the appropiate direction.Doesn’t work this way for the vast majority of users.They are led by what is presented by marketing and sales representatives.To be frankly,i didn’t like you assumption of the world becoming a better place.You only give the marketing people survival training at large.Look at MS,instead of putting the shoulders under their load and start tackling it they spend $200 million on additional marketing for a 4 years > product.doesn’t make XP or it’s successor better in any way.
Perhaps i took the “world becoming a better place” outside the OS realm,ny bad.Even so i doubt you assumption.
Hey, keep it up! Perhaps one day you’ll be the new Lumbergh. He’s getting old and tiresom and you certainly have his pedanic skills 😉
Despite any repository bashing.
A repository would work however well on Windows, much likely better then on Linux – it would be ONE repository, the application developers would just package his app up for ONE platform, and even if the application is extremely new or not popular, I would grab the package from the developer’s page and install that one and would know it works. In the specific case of Windows it could take care of dependencies with DirectX (although you only need one version – the latest) or Visual Basic Runtimes as well, too.
However, I doubt that something like this will happen – as Windows has no concepts of repositories, and Linux, worse, has fun having a lot of incompatible repositories.
totally annoying screen blinking that made it almost impossible to do things like type in the long, so-precious “Product Key.” Note that this “Key” is not a simple, English-language password, but a 20-character string of apparently random letters and numbers. It took me several tries to type the “Product Key” correctly without being able to see it on screen because of the constant blinking. I doubt that most users would put up with this problem. I suspect that most would simply return their copy of Windows XP to the store where they bought it and go back to familiar, user-friendly Linux.
OMFG, is this guy serious? Because we all know millions of people have this blinking screen problem, and they also all return their Windows because it’s soooo hard to enter the 20-character string of apparently random letters and numbers (“What!? It’s not an english word!? I’m taking this back!!”). And then they happily use Linux, because to boot it up, all you have to do is edit some configuration files, and remember the correct key-combo to save the file (:wq – yeah, much better…). This guy’s a zealot, and they should not write ‘editorials’, this one’s just a flame/rant.
Considering Windows is on 90% of desktops, I’d say it is ready.
I have installed Linux on over 30 different systems to date, and I have used Debian (MEPIS, Ubuntu, Knoppix and KANOTIX), Fedora, SuSe, Mandrake and Slackware.
I have also installed Windows version 95, 98, XP Pro and XP home on perhaps 15 different systems.
I speak from experience when I say that Linux has been far easier to install and use on each system. I have never had to use “:wq” even once. A Linux install on a modern system takes only between 20-30 minutes and one reboot – and you end up with a fully working system with a full desktop applications suite. If you use a live-CD install it can all be installed from the one CDROM.
For Windows it takes much longer – about 2-3 hours and up to seven re-boots. It will take about six or seven CDROMS at least by the time you have fed in alll the driver CDROMS for your hardware that Windows doesn’t have drivers for – and a reboot after each one – sometimes two or more.
The you have to find all the applications you want to use – at least another five or six CDROMS for that. Be certain to have a firewall and anti-virus and anti-spyware program on CDROM ready to install before you connect to the net or your system will get hosed.
Then you have to download service packs and virus definition updates and a zillion other things – just to get to a system which finally approaches something like MEPIS or KANOTIX or Ubuntu.
Windows takes at least three days to bring up to speed. Bad luck if you have to edit the registry along the way – that is miles harder than “:wq” – and if you mangle the registry bad luck you have to start again from scratch.
“Linux, worse, has fun having a lot of incompatible repositories.”
You Windows people really do not grok repositories do you?
It simply doesn’t matter one whit that Mandrake repositories are not compatible with Debian repositories – for the simple reason that all the open source applications are in both.
In other words – to get a program from Mandrake I get it from the Mandrake repositories using urpmi or rpmdrake.
To get the exact same program for Debian I get it from the Debian repositories using apt-get or synaptic.
It simply doesn’t matter at all that the Mandrake packages are not compatible with the Debian packages – I can still get the program for my system from a repository.
>“As both a Linux and a Windows user, I find the repository system to be very efficient. It is much simpler than having to hunt down apps, following links upon link to get to the download (when not put into a waiting queue), then having to go to the file location, clicking on the icon and following instructions.”
As both Windows desktop user and Linux server administrator I find the Windows software delivery system to be very efficient.
Just few weeks ago I had to acquire tax preparation software, which will provide me with services of filing my tax return, services I am willing to pay for.
My preference is to have this software installed on my computer, so on my way home I stopped at CompUSA, entered the store, asked salesperson for tax preparation software for Windows.
I received a box with QuickTax for Tax Year 2004, the label on that box says Microsoft Windows 95 or higher.
I wish I could do the same with Linux, where I can just ask salesperson for Linux tax preparation software, get a box that says Linux kernel 2.0 or higher and it will just work on my distro, with GUI, videos, access to the Internet and automatic self-update every time I start it.
As for the general concept of repository systems, it does exist on Windows and works quite well. As a Windows user you should make yourself familiar with, for example, http://www.download.com and other similar locations.
Sure, it’s different from Linux depositories, but different doesn’t mean inferior. It also gives you freedom to choose where to download workable software from.
When Linux is there, with universal installer or some other solution to that quite real problem, then it (Linux) will be ready for desktop more than Windows does.
>“It simply doesn’t matter at all that the Mandrake packages are not compatible with the Debian packages – I can still get the program for my system from a repository.”
It does, Mark- it is called vendor lock-in.
The concept of repositories works quite well and is in many ways superior to installation on windows. I found it especially nice that I could find software by entering search terms, not by searching tons of web sites manually.
Another big plus (but this probably comes more from free software and not from the concept of repositories) is that the software in the distro reps is tested to be free of malware. By my personal, harsh security rating, Linux is still insecure as hell (I can give examples if you want). However, the stuff in the distro reps is tested not to exploit these leaks. On the other hand, with The Windows Way I don’t know what crap I have just installed, and in what way it will turn against me.
A big downside of distro reps is the vast amount of software not available in the reps. I’ll pick up the Russian Guy’s example of tax preparation software. I can walk into the next shop and buy such software that knows all the latest fiddlings and changed laws for my location (Hessen, Germany). I haven’t looked for it, but it’d be very surprised (in a positive way) if the same is true for any distro rep.
Conclusion (for now): A combination of both is the way to go: A repository for infrastructural software and standard applications, and a standardized interface to write custom applications. (and with standardized interface I mean that no f***ing application should ever have to distinguish between different distros).
I guess you’re happy with distro-repository lockin. That’s fine if you want to be at the mercy of the distro repository master.
Have you taken a look at hardware compatibility lists recently? I don’t think you have. The vast majority of hardware is supported.
Haha, there are a huge host of wireless network cards that have absolutely no support in the kernel. In fact, it’s most without ndiswrapper. Once again, no stable kernel ABI for binary drivers hurts linux.
Funny, when I plug in a USB digital camera on my Linux laptop, there’s no need to install a driver: the camera’s icon appears automatically on the desktop. You know, if you’re going to criticize Linux, you should try to keep up a little.
Didn’t work with the camera I just plugged in with my HAL-enabled distro. But I guess its always a crap shoot with Linux. Even if HAL did detect it, there is no software to go with it.
Uh, no it hasn’t, not anymore than it has hurt Windows, the MacOSes or any other OS, for that matter. Stop inventing problems where there are none just to further your own agenda.
Of course it has. The ISVs have nothing to target, but zealot groupthink that continues to tow the party line will always hurt Linux adoption on the desktop.
But you should know that, despite your dubious claims, it isn’t any more difficult to support games on Linux than on Windows. When Bioware released Neverwinter Nights, they had a single set of binaries for all Linux distros, and it worked quite well. That’s because games – especially OpenGL ones – rely on very few system libraries.
Funny you bring that up. Notice how the mod tools aren’t available for Linux. Hmm…wonder why. Oh, because there is no standard toolkit for linux. Oh, and don’t even tell me that having umpteen distros, with various kernels, open source drivers, non-open source drivers is not a problem.
With counter-arguments such as these, I’m beginning to understand why you so often resort to personal attacks and strawmen…
With your typical groupthink approval of the status quo its no wonder why desktop linux never made it. If there had been one dominant desktop with a standard toolkit, then maybe things would have turned out differently. Oh well, OSX is always there for those that need a Unix desktop. Linux is fine in the server rack.
“I guess you’re happy with distro-repository lockin. That’s fine if you want to be at the mercy of the distro repository master.”
What in heavens name are you on about?
17000 packages in the debian repositories – says it all. What Linux packages are in the repositories? you may ask – ALL OF THEM!
There is no such thing as “distro-repository lockin”.
“Haha, there are a huge host of wireless network cards that have absolutely no support in the kernel.”
There are no wireless network cards that I have that have no support in the Linux kernel. Rather, the cards that I have are not supported in the Windows kernel – one has to insert a driver CDROM before Windows knows about them.
“Didn’t work with the camera I just plugged in” – worked just fine with the one that I tried.