Developers say there’s a
dirty little secret about Longhorn that few Softies are discussing publicly: Longhorn won’t be based on the .Net Framework . . . Instead, the .Net Framework will be the core for a small subset of Longhorn, specifically the Windows API Platform (WAP), which consists primarily of the “Avalon” Windows presentation system and the “Indigo” Windows communications system
… that Windows security problems are here to stay for at least another 5 years?
Did anyone think that Microsoft was going to use such a high level environment to program an operating system in? This is one of those FUD articles – yeah MS does it to OSS, others do it to MS. These new frameworks aren’t going to become that used until they become more mature – especially for something like an OS. Does anyone see Gnome moving to a higher level environment? Not anytime soon.
Windows NT is what, 15 years old at this point. Of course Longhorn was going to be just an enhancement to that continuing codebase.
Did anyone ever say Longhorn would be a complete rewrite? Why would anyone beleive something a preposterous as that?
Are you saying that some of the ground-up rework purportedly done for XP and 2003 hasn’t happened?
Notwithstanding backwards compatibility code, I thought Alchin and Co. had re-engineered from the ground up…
I’d be careful when a product manager or business-types throws around the words “rearchitecture”, “rework” or “rewrite”.
I find it hard to beleive that Cutler’s original NT Executive codebase isn’t still plugging away in the bowels of XP, 2K3, and yes LH. Sure they moved the video driver into Ring 0 about 10 years ago and added NX support fairly recently, but that more the evolution of the codebase than anything else.
Good lord, who would beleive they’d rewrite EVERYTHING in C#. Well apparantly the “experts” at Microsoft Watch.
I wonder whay they think the “Java Desktop System” is written in.
Why ‘dirty little secret’? Writing an operating system using only managed code wouldn’t bring Microsoft any new customers, and the performance penalty would scare many of them away.
Mrs Foley seems to lack basic knowledge of operating systems – but she’s good at throwing buzzwords at people.
Amazing the amount of articles you see on here that about halfway into them (if it takes that long), it dawns upon you…the author is about clueless.
Amazing where journalism has gone in the past few years.
JT
Some of you say no one ever thought that LH would be built on top of .Net anyway while the article clearly states: “The original plan for Longhorn was to build lots of components on top of the next version of the .Net ramework”. So it clearly seems that Microsoft themselves believed it for some time, which in itself is astonishing. If this is correct then it must have been one of the things to have effect on LH’s postponed release.
The other newsworthy part is for the developers:
“A big benefit of the new plan is that developers don’t have to move to .Net if they want to use new Longhorn features.”
So please don’t bash the article before you have read it.
Erm, why on earth are people blaming the NT kernel for the problems with Windows? The NT kernel is a very good, fast, stable, reliable, portable, hybrid kernel that was completely written from scratch. NT was a very big gamble for MS in the early 90s, and no other major company has ever undertaken such a feat in that time. No, Apple did not write OSX from scratch, they used an existing kernel and existing groundwork. Linux is completely new but was in turn based heavily on Minix and Unix.
Blaming the current problems with Windows on the NT kernel / codebase shows a serious lack of understanding of the matter. I’d even call it zealotry.
>No, Apple did not write OSX from scratch, they used an
>existing kernel and existing groundwork. Linux is completely
>new but was in turn based heavily on Minix and Unix.
It could be said that the NT kernel was “based heavily” on VMS.
From the article.
>Another developer source, who asked not to be named, says he
>has been hearing some related hall talk.
>
>”Everything in Longhorn was supposed to be written in C# and
>to be managed code.
Only a fool would beleive such a statement.
.Net 2.0 was never going to be the “heart” of Longhorn. The NT kernel is the “heart” of Longhorn.
I think the main misundestanding here is what OS is.
OS is a software layer between hardware and applications.
I case of Windows we have a mixture with OS (kernel) ,application frameworks (GDI), desktop and some applications (IE). The problem is that there are lots of dependencies so noone can clear separate the parts.
Longhorn should have been provide a clear separation between OS (C++ kernel), framework (.NET) and desktop (made upon .NET). But this scheme is definitly revolutional one, so what we are going to have is a hybrid. I prefer much better a Java with it’s clear separation (I_DO_NOT_CARE_WHAT_IS_OUTSIDE) than this one.
Again this give SUN a chance to make a true Java Desktop.
Something like Linux/Solaris Kernel + embedded JVM + Desktop (looking glass???). But again the problem is the as for Microsoft – to revolutional concept.
.Net 2.0 was never going to be the “heart” of Longhorn. The NT kernel is the “heart” of Longhorn
Bleh…semantics. .net was indirectly described to be the core of Lonhorn many times. Remember when Bill Gates called Longhorn a “bet the company” move? If it’s just a continuation of things as is today, why would that be??
Microsoft has for about 5 years now been advertising the hell out of .net with their TV spots about “real time” networks and such. Longhorn was supposed to be lots of things – new frameworks, new APIs, new codebase, etc. It’s turning out to be NONE of those things. In fact, it’s starting to sound like Windows 2003 SP1 + a few extra desktop features. I fail to see anything revolutionary in it anymore.
Microsoft will only really blaze new ground if they decide to say “screw backwards compatibility” and understand that it will take a few years for people to catch on and really start using it. Unfortunately, that leaves the door open for Linux and Macs to fill the gap.
You can say whatever you want, but if you believe this isn’t backtracking then you’ve fallen victim to the slow but steady retreat from the original campaign.
MS never said .NET would be at the heart of the next OS (aka Longhorn).
This article should be moderated down for being a lie.
>Bleh…semantics. .net was indirectly described to be the
>core of Lonhorn many times. Remember when Bill Gates called
>Longhorn a “bet the company” move? If it’s just a
>continuation of things as is today, why would that be??
Microsoft always overhypes every project they do. Win2K was supposed to be the greatest feat of engineering in human history as well.
Also, I would put it beyond them to outright lie when it benefits them. Remember the “IE is an inseperable component of Windows nonsense”.
>In fact, it’s starting to sound like Windows 2003 SP1 + a
>few extra desktop features. I fail to see anything
>revolutionary in it anymore.
BINGO! We have Bingo! Longhorn does get less and less remarkable as the release data approaches. Though it was ALWAYS just going to be just another release of Windows NT. Don’t let anyone tell you different.
This is good news. Very good news.
I always wonder why people believe in computing revolutions, why does a new version of an OS needs to be revolutionary rather than evolutionary?
All this hype about longhorn its just about MS in need of revenue.
Why MS has to throw away an OS that work well, that many people like? Security reasons? Most of the security issues in windows are fixable if MS want to. This will be as stupid as linus throwing away all the existing kernel codebase just to make a few techno obsessed people happy.
WTF are you bringning up Linux in this conversation?
Interesting name. You must hate yourself.
>Where’s the perfect out-of-the-box distro that runs on most
>computers?
Ubuntu (www.ubuntulinux.org)
>Where’s the easy-to-use-for-grandma software installation
>system?
Click-n-run (http://www.linspire.com/lindows_products_categories.php)
>It could very well only be Windows XP with a composited
>graphics system, and people will STILL buy it up, and it
>will STILL become the de-facto desktop operating system.
I have no doubt. The lambs will always line up for slaughter.
Enjoy you Longhorn experience.
Ubuntu? I said most computers. Ubuntu failed on my laptop, I had no 3D acceleration or sound on my parent’s computer, and the network didn’t work on my brother’s computer. I guess that’s the extent of out-of-the-box when it comes to Linux, though.
Click-n-run. Wonderful. So according to you … the perfect out-of-the-box distro is Ubuntu, but the perfect grandma-software-installation-system is for Linspire. That helps a lot. You’ve just basically outlined the problem with Linux: too many distros that each do one thing right but suck at everything else.
I will enjoy my Longhorn experience, thank you very much. While you’re sitting there recompiling software and kernels all day, and fiddling around with conf files, I’ll be at my computer listening to music, playing games, synchronizing my PDA merely by being in the vicinity of my machine, scheduling TV programs to record, and streaming HD-quality video to the high-def TV in my living room. Sounds good.
”
I’d now like to touch on Linux … where has Linux come in the past 4 years?”
Um, let’s see. Schools are using it, businesses are using it, governments are using and promoting it. Microsoft considers it it’s number one threat…that’s just for starters in case you missed it..
BTW, I just love that screen name. You think you’re not a Windows zealot?? You think Windows doesn’t have zealots? You must be new around her. We see your kind allllllllllllllllll day long in these parts. Listen to the same blather everytime too….”Linux isn’t ready for the desktop, yada yada”…same BS, day after day …get a clue
Linux has been “ready for the desktop” since ~1998. At least that’s what I’ve been told year after year …
Let’s see … all those places are using it … yet it still has yet to make any inroads in where it all matters: home users. Get a clue.
Anyway, you all know I’m right. You guys argue the pedantics, but you don’t look at my general points. Typical. It’s not just a river in Egypt, kids. 🙂
C# and .Net is an A1 platform. I find it a little odd that MS arent using it for longhorn.
Either way, it doesn’t affect me – linux all the way! (and yes, I use C# and .Net)
You can TRY to enjoy Longhorn, but you won’t for long, once the spyware authors start enjoying it too. If they’re not redoing much of windows, it will be very hard make it any more secure, and your computer will be running many more programs you don’t want on there than ones you do.
“Anyway, you all know I’m right. You guys argue the pedantics, but you don’t look at my general points. Typical. It’s not just a river in Egypt, kids. :-)”
Right about what? That Windows is the default because the OEMS were afraid of MS and getting cut of, or because they were more afraid of IBM? Right about the fact that Windows security has always sucked and still does, and your “just works” theory doesn’t apply to thousands of Windows users getting stuck with this worm or that piece of malare? Right about the fact that even after this all this time, even thought they’ve made improvements in the stability, it’s shaky at times, especially once you start adding security patches? Which part were you right about? Oh, that must be the part where you’ve NEVER had problems with Windows because you’re such a clever person. Which would be nice for me. Meanwhile, Windows is still half assed after all these years, and this with an enormous Windows division and all the money that MS can throw at it. Bill says he just wants to make good software. The world can’t wait until he starts.
When describing .NET, Microsoft explicitly mentions that .NET is not for developing system core components.
.NET will surely be *preferred* way to develop for Windows systems from Longhorn on. It *might* even be that Microsoft thought to put some managed code in, given that LH will not ship sooner than 2006 (probably beginning of 2007) and that computer power now allows to successfully use managed code (where successfully also includes at *decent* speed).
However, that’s not the point. While LH will surely be compatible with old way to develop for Windows systems, new *preferred* way will be managed code and hence .NET. If MS successfully switches most application market from native to managed code, it can later shift to a managed system whenever it wants. However, what would be real benefit of having a managed OS?
It looks better to me if MS succeedes in switching most (or all) application development to managed code (to enhance security, system stability and so on) while letting HW manufacturers to release native system code which allow system to run at full speed.
Remember that beside core technologies like Avalon or Indigo (great things, IMO), MS is also working in shadows to enhance less-known parts of system. For example, AFAIK Microsoft is modifying codebase in order not to require user to be logged as Administrator of his/her PC in order to fully use applications, something which is not always possible now. That could enhance security of LH systems but it surely requires major rewrite of core components and a compatibility layer for old application.
This article doesn’t look fair, probably because writer doesn’t know most things she’s writing about. Which is no good to get the real point. However, I can’t understand all this buzzing nor how can this change what we’re thinking about LH…
“Linux has been “ready for the desktop” since ~1998. At least that’s what I’ve been told year after year …”
With every release of Windows, Microsoft will berate the previous version and ask “why would you want to run such slow, unstable, and insecure junk, when you can install this new version?”. When Longhorn is released, Microsoft’s marketing department will tell you that all those previous versions weren’t really fit for the desktop.
I have been running Linux as my desktop for quite sometime and I have to ask myself this: when will Windows catch up to the richness of the Linux experience? I love the fact that I don’t have to spend my day tweaking the system, defragging the filesystem, running spyware removal software, running anti-virus software, and updating my firewall software. I also love the fact that updates come quickly, install without fanfare, and don’t require a reboot.
Some here have mentioned in the past that Longhorn would be built atop .NET…. Google’d for evidence without result … take my word for it?
You really didn’t expect them to eat their own dog food did you?
love the fact that I don’t have to spend my day tweaking the system, defragging the filesystem, running spyware removal software, running anti-virus software, and updating my firewall software. I also love the fact that updates come quickly, install without fanfare, and don’t require a reboot.
————————————
Interesting. That about describes my Linux experience… So much tweaking, time that could be spent on toher things. But hey, to each their own. Sure, I dont have to run spyware or adware stuff, but its soo hard to leave my computer on at night once a month while it does it scheduled tasks only to find out yet again that I have 0 detected problems in the morning… With software that updates autmomatically, its requires no effort at all to stay up to date.
Reboots after patches? Sure, there are a few that require a reboot (though you could still use the computer and reboot later) but I would hardly say thats the majority. Everytime I have tried to update in Linux I end up crashing or something. But hey, Linux is the Holy Grail of security, so I shouldnt have to worry, right?
What exactly is your problem with Linux? I run both Linux (Mandrake) and Windows XP at the house. Both run great. I get aggravated from time to time with spyware on my XP machine, but as you should, I have applications that take care of that problem.
Having said that, you’re clueless when it comes to Linux. I use it at home as well as at work. I haven’t run into many problems with it. I’ll say right now that for alot of people, they cannot handle Linux. But, if you think about it without trying to spout off at the mouth, there’s a large group of people that can use Windows. It’s the “AOL droids” out there that have to have everything spoon fed to them, and don’t have a clue when it comes to anything concerning their OS that they are running. However, because some mindless moron cannot run an OS does not make that OS obselete. There’s alot of things that I prefer doing in Linux than I do in Windows. I run a webserver off of an older laptop that I’ve thrown Linux on. Can I do that off of a Windows box? Sure could. Why Linux? Security. I could make the Windows box more secure, but why would I bother spending the money when there’s something else that works just as good?
Is it easier for the ignorant to run Windows vs Linux? Of course. Do those same ignorant users ask others for help when it comes to setting up email, their scanner, their digital camera, etc..? Of course they do. That’s the same type of thing that they’d need help in Linux as well. So, why the zealot attitude on your part? It’s good to have a choice in the OS that you run.
… that Windows security problems are here to stay for at least another 5 years?
————————————–
What security problems? I’ve never had a problem…
————-
no you didn’t. others had. linux always worked on all my hardware. windows did not, at least you had to install drivers etc. windows could not even get on the internet, i had to install drivers for my network card to get online… and i had to download them. without linux i wouldn’t even get online. Microsoft is NOT ready for the desktop. Linux IS, i use it a few years.
the problem is – there might be 1000 things linux/kde (that’s what i use) can do, and windows XP can not. but there are still a few things XP can do, and linux not. so you won’t switch from XP to linux, used as you are to those things. but believe me, its much harder to go from a modern kubuntu to windows XP, as you loose a LOT functionallity.
…the Windows NT core has a few things to commend it. It is stable enough as a desktop. With the right drivers and hardware, it can be very stable indeed. I hear good things about Windows 2003 Server, functioning as a server. If Longhorn is basically a continuation of what has come before, that wouldn’t be all bad. It all depends on how Microsoft tweaks things.
What will IE-7 look like? How hardened will it be? Will Microsoft separate it more from the guts of the operating system?
What will the user interface look like? There was a marvelous discussion over on DSLReports, led off by a person who worked as a tech support person for an ISP. His main job involved explaining to new users of the system how to get a fixed IP using either DHCP, or just entering the address. The Mac had a simple method that was easy to explain over the phone. Windows had multiple ways of accessing the same configuration menus, but none of the access methods were consistent across Windows versions, or even within the same version. Complicating the issue further was the plethora of pop-up windows and buried options. Someone who knows what they are doing, could figure things out, but a newbie talking to tech support would be in for a hard time.
One of the responses to the above mentioned post was interesting. Configuration in the relatively user hostile ‘nixes involved two command line “commands” that were consistent. In short the ‘nixes beat Windows in this case for being serviceable over the phone. In Linux, most distributions would simply have connected, removing the need for a phone call.
If Microsoft wants Longhorn to “just work,” it’s just these sorts of details they will have to sweat. I don’t think they have the corporate culture in place to pull that off. Let’s hope I’m wrong.
If you know how to use both systems to the full, Linux _allows_ you to do more than Windows does. Try removing explorer without a fight. Or I.E.
I like being in control of my own PC.
I’ve just installed Slackware for two of my computer illiterate friends and set it up for them so they can do the few simple tasks they do without hassle
they are trying to link compatibility issues to inmaturity and imply that .NET is not good. However, from MS:
“Indeed, overall, breaking changes in the .Net Framework 2.0 were related to standards compliance, customer feedback and correctness, the company said.”
this is a good thing, in my opinon, and shows a growing maturity. .NET has been around for a few years now and in computer time a few years is a long time.
In general, most developers did not think that .NET was going to be at the core. .NET had always emphasized and leveraged the ablity to call native API’s – it is part of the .NET philosophy and hence the (farce) debate over ‘unsafe’ calls. (reminder – Java allows unsafe calls too)
Try removing libc or mount with out a fight.
So what is operating system? Windows people are sometimes confused in this question. It’s the thing that manages resources (CPU, memory). On my desktop it’s Linux kernel and in windows world its WinNT-based kernel. Kernels are usualy written in C/C++ and will be for several years. I never though, MS is going to rewrite kernel – WinNT good enough.
But there is a lot of stuff around that can be written in a higher level langage. .Net is a really nice framework, the API is powerful and programs based on it are subjectively fast (faster guy than java). I hoped things like Avalon and WinFS will be completely in C#. Since the GC in .net is excelent, I had always doubts if the memory requirements will be to high.
Designers in MS were probably confident, but they didn’t succeed. It is disapointment for me, large software cannot be written in C#/Java. IDEs like IBM Websphere Developer eat hundreds of megebytes of RAM – and it is only one program. What if whole system behaves like that.
>Where’s the easy-to-use-for-grandma software installation
>system?
Grandma won’t be able to install Windows on a PC, and she probably won’t be able to install software on it as well. So what’s your point, apart from spreading FUD and bashing Linux every chance you get?
Ubuntu? I said most computers. Ubuntu failed on my laptop, I had no 3D acceleration or sound on my parent’s computer, and the network didn’t work on my brother’s computer.
Or so you claim.
Re: 3D acceleration. If you install Windows on a brand-new computer, 3D acceleration is not installed by default unless you have the manufacturer’s disk. So it is an additional install, just like in Linux. However, NVIDIA’s Linux installer is actually more stable in many situation than theire Windows installer (the Windows installer would constantly crash my Win2K computer, I had to reboot into DOS to upgrade the card’s firmware!).
Everytime I have tried to update in Linux I end up crashing or something.
I love it how anti-Linux posters can make such exaggerated claims with a straight face.
The FUD is so thick here you can cut it with a knife. Methinks Dr. BooBooGone, ZealotHater and some of the anonymous posters are really astroturfers. I hope they do, otherwise it’s kind of sad that they would devote this much time and energy to defend an abusive monopoly totally free of charge…
“…is why all these Windows haters whine about spyware. I run Windows exclusively and I have never had a spyware problem. Yes, I have had tracker cookies, and annoying pop-ups from time-to-time but never a real “problem” (no viruses either). Meaning browser hijacking, reduced performance etc… “
Well, I think that is a complaint of a lot of people, including Windows users. You may have never had the problems (lucky you), but I know many that have. And guess what? I’m tired of fixing other people’s computers for crap like spyware, worms, and viruses. Personally, I’ve never had the problem, but my family and friends do all the time. So whenever I come home from university, instead of hanging out, it’s computer repair time, and that sucks. I’ve lost more hours of my life fixing Windows than it deserves.
“Come to think of it, the only people I’ve heard that have real spyware problems are people who look at p0rn all day. So, does this explain why you use Linux? You want to drool at p0rn all day? Do you people work? Oops, forgot that’s why you want a free OS… Silly me.. “
It’s not because these people are looking up porn (my girlfriend’s mom or my little sister looking at those websites… right) its because Windows security is terrible. I guess people who want to use Windows must be 1337 h4x0rz like you Dr.BooBooGone and ZealotHater, but most people just want their machine to work. They don’t want to deal with popups every 10 seconds. Congratulations on being a Windows Power User(tm), but most people aren’t. Windows is not safe or ready for the average user.
Before you ask then what is ready, I’d say for most people OS X is perfect. As for myself, I like NetBSD and Arch Linux. However, if you wanted to venture into Linux, I would recommend Ubuntu to start off with. Are all these perfect? obviously not. That’s why when I fix people’s computers, I keep Windows, because I realized that people will switch when they are ready and willing (i.e. my gf is asking about Ubuntu).
I regularily deal with hardware and driver updates (I’m a hardware reviewer), and I’ve never experienced NVIDIA’s driver installer crashing the system. What a load of bullshit.
As for Ubuntu not working out with my hardware — who are you to say I made those claims up? FOAD plz kthx
Once again, it’s not just a river in Egypt.
I regularily deal with hardware and driver updates (I’m a hardware reviewer)
Really? Care to give us a link to your website?
and I’ve never experienced NVIDIA’s driver installer crashing the system. What a load of bullshit.
Unfortunately, it’s all too true. The card was a MSI GeForce4 Ti4400. Trying to install the card would force the system to reboot. It eventually worked after I updated the firmware, though the system would sometimes spontaneously reboot when playing Half-Life.
As for Ubuntu not working out with my hardware — who are you to say I made those claims up?
Well, you’re clearly biased against Linux and are a flamebaitre, while I’ve never had problems installing Ubuntu. So I’m expressing serious doubts. That’s okay, you express similar doubts about my own experience. I don’t feel the need to use profanity, though. Perhaps that’s because I’m actually a mature individual who is able to disagree with someone while maintaining a civilized discourse.
FOAD plz kthx
Like, how old are you? 14?
Nun, if your computer was rebooting while playing games, that has hardly anything to do with the software. It was purely a hardware fault — bad RAM, bad powersupply, overheating, bad video card … unfortunately, such problems are hard to diagnose.
Website? Neoseeker.
“FOAD plz kthx” is a little thing I say to irritate people — because a childish AIM-kiddie comment in the middle of a fairly intelligent argument just infuriates some people. 🙂
It was purely a hardware fault — bad RAM, bad powersupply, overheating, bad video card … unfortunately, such problems are hard to diagnose.
Funny, the same hardware under Mandrake worked flawlessly (yes, with 3D acceleration). So I guess this shows that Linux is just more stable than Windows! 🙂 CQFD
Of course! I’ll switch to Linux right away, because it makes bad hardware work, it makes me see those non-existant Windows crashes, and cures cancer too!
Right.
What can I say, this is what my experience with that PC was. But I don’t expect you to believe me, since your anti-Linux bias is much too strong.
For the record, I use both Linux and Windows daily, and extensively. I think I’m in a good position to gauge the merits of both OSes…
I agree that it’s possible to keep Windows well maintained, and clear of spyware and viruses. Certain statements by Zealothater give me pause, though:
– I don’t tweak my system. I leave it as it is. I configured it ONCE intelligently, and I don’t get a ton of crap build-up.
Try running a registry cleaner, and see what you come up with.
– I don’t worry about defragmenting. I have Diskeeper scheduled to run when it deems necessary. When it does, the process runs for 2-3 minutes.
Defragging is an annoyance. I tended to defrag once every six months. Diskeeper sounds interesting. How much was it? I couldn’t get a quote from the Web site, because it kept trying to build a profile on me every time I tried to get information.
– I don’t run spyware removal software, because I don’t have spyware. I don’t visit porn sites (let alone use IE), I don’t run random files I receive through MSN/e-mail, and I sure as hell am intelligent enough to know the difference between a shady site and a respectable site. Do you?
I did run anti-spyware software, even though I ran Firefox with Javascript turned off. You see, I used to claim the same thing you did, but…
– I don’t use firewall software. I have a router. If I didn’t, I’d use XP SP2’s built-in firewall. I wasn’t aware you had to “update” that periodically?
…then I installed a firewall that monitored my outbound connections (I, too, was and am behind a router). Hey presto! Suspicious activity. I traced it to something installed by software I had purchased (from Broderbund). After that experience I stopped making such claims. So should you, as you appear to have no way of telling whether or not you are infected.
– I don’t run AV software. See above. I’ve had one virus on my Windows system in the last 6 years — ironically enough, I got it from my brother when he connected to a shared drive with write access.
Again, how would you know you are currently clean, and not functioning as some spambot zombie?
– Updates that don’t update system components don’t require a reboot. Simple as that.
When you update a browser, like IE, you are updating the system, and you will reboot. On Linux, that doesn’t happen. I run Windows networking in the form of Samba. I just updated it today. As part of the update, my package manager stopped Samba, updated it, and restarted it. There was no reboot. With Windows, there would have been.
I’ll throw my two cents in with “A nun, he moos;” I don’t think the astroturfers have a clue about Linux. Frankly, I have problems with the way some of them administer Windows.
dpkg –force-all –purge libc6 mount
You can do it.. probably should not.
I suppose, if you create an embedded installation for a specific piece of hardware, you could theoretically thin linux down to just a custom kernel that did everything you want the os to do.
I don’t remember exactly, but I believe Diskeeper was around $30. I got a free upgrade to the latest version when that came out, though.
Register cleaner: I have one, and I fire it up on occassion to see what’s built up. Most of it is left-over crap from software I have uninstalled. I check off the rogue entries, and remove them. One minute of work every month.
Spyware: I’m highly aware of what’s running on my system at all times. I know what processes should be running, and what shouldn’t be. I’d be quite aware of it if I got shitware installed on my system. Then again, I download download/install anything that could potentially infest me with its turds.
Outgoing connections: Like I said, I know what processes should be running and what shouldn’t be. If I avoid rogue processes, I avoid unknown outgoing connections. My router keeps a log of all incoming and outgoing connections, though, so I check that periodically to see what’s going on in my network. I haven’t seen anything suspicious for at least a year.
Viruses: Because I’d *know*. I know my system better than the back of my hand. The moment something takes too long to load, or the moment I hear drive thrashing that I don’t usually hear, I investigate. Fortunately, none of it has ever turned out to be rogue software.
Updates: Of course the system reboots when you update a system component. Try upgrading your kernel without rebooting. However, Microsoft has made inroads in this respect with Server 2003 SP1. It supports hot-patching of binaries/libraries that are currently running. I haven’t read about the technology behind it, but apparently both the on-disk copy and the copy in memory are patched at the same time, basically preventing the need for even a restart of the service.
does anyone know whats dhcp and if i need to configure it for a wifi connection?
I meant “Registry cleaner”.
Oh, and “I don’t download/install …”
I make mistakes when my mind works faster than I can type.
“MS never said .NET would be at the heart of the next OS (aka Longhorn). ”
Yes, it did.
Now, only a few subsystems will actually be managed code.
I love it how anti-Linux posters can make such exaggerated claims with a straight face.
I hope they do, otherwise it’s kind of sad that they would devote this much time and energy to defend an abusive monopoly totally free of charge…
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So you are going to assume this is exaggerated? Of course, LINUX NEVER CRASHES!!! Its just pure FUD to say that Linux has ever crashed. I guess it was me, the user that caused it. Not the OS, which is as perfect as can be.
Its not that I’m anti Linux, its just that it doesnt work for me. I’ll use what works, which is Windows XP. I also get sick of people that follow Linux so blindly (reminds me of some screw ball religious guys I know) that everything in Windows is bad, and the only cure is Linux. So they push Linux on to other people (much like the same crazy religious guys…) and spout about how Microsoft is evil, and every decision they make is a bad one. So their poor friends get cought in the middle, and it doesnt matter that Mac OS or Windows would suit their needs more, but Linux has to be the cure. I know, I’ve seen this happen and had to reinstall Windows back on some machines. I have no problem suggesting an alternative OS to someone. Windows doesnt always work for everyone, just like how Linux or Mac OS doesnt work for everyone.
Now, back to the non existant crashes I have had… So when a program locks up and I am unable to stop it, I have to hit the power button on my computer. Sounds like a crash to me… I havent tried the auto update on all the distros I have tried, but I know I have had problems with Fedora (2 and 3) and Mandrake (It could have been Yoper, its been a while).
So its sad that I defend Microsoft, eh? Guess I’m not high and mighty like you…
Well said.
>>”MS never said .NET would be at the heart of the next OS (aka >Longhorn). ”
>Yes, it did.
>Now, only a few subsystems will actually be managed code.
Here’s a good article on that from December 18, 2003:
http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:oAErhifHERAJ:www.ftponline.com…
with a very describing picture of the .Net parts of the “Base Operating System Services”
…she zipped over it but she indicated that (heresay) a Microsoft Developer mentioned that the OS was a rewrite. That could mean lots of fresh bugs, but also a cleaned up and optimized base operating system.
The problem with most Windows users is that they run their machines as Admin all the time. I never run as Admin, even when I’m logged in as myself. If you don’t run as Admin it is *MUCH* easier to maintain the system (I use the runas command and it works just like the su command in Linux). Most of the problems I’ve seen are from people attempting to install something that they shouldn’t, then they end up breaking the machine and I have to go fix it. Spyware is not a major problem since I advise people to turn off ActiveX in IE.
Now, for Linux, if grandma were to log into a Linux box as root and she tried to install a piece of software; Guess what? I’d have to go over and fix the mess. See, it’s no different!
Linux is not a panacea.
Once a Windows box is configured properly it *IS* the safest desktop OS around.
i wouldn’t call this a dirty secret. A dirty secret is the kind of thing that someone tries to keep hidden, because it would be bad press.
i don’t see how this news is negative for windows or for microsoft. really, no one cares what the os is programmed on. people care about tangible things like, how fast is it? or how secure is it?
So you are going to assume this is exaggerated? Of course, LINUX NEVER CRASHES!!! Its just pure FUD to say that Linux has ever crashed.
Allow me to quote you and add emphasis:
“Everytime I have tried to update in Linux I end up crashing or something.”
That is clearly an exaggeration. I never said Linux never crashed – don’t try to divert attention from what you said, and what I responded to.
That said, in my four years of using Linux it may have crashed, what, seven times? Sure, I’ve had X hang due to unstable nvidia drivers (updating the firmware helped a lot with that), but there’s an easy way out that doesn’t require a reboot, and therefore proves that the system did not in fact crash. Windows has crashed on me a lot more than that over the same period of time.
I guess it was me, the user that caused it. Not the OS, which is as perfect as can be.
Well, despite your sarcastic attempt at a strawman argument (i.e. that I believe that Linux is perfect, which it certainly is not – no OS is), Linux doesn’t crash on me. Windows hardly does anymore, for that matter.
Its not that I’m anti Linux, its just that it doesnt work for me. I’ll use what works, which is Windows XP.
What works for you, you mean… 🙂
I also get sick of people that follow Linux so blindly (reminds me of some screw ball religious guys I know) that everything in Windows is bad, and the only cure is Linux. So they push Linux on to other people
Who said everything in Windows is bad? Not me, nor any of the other Linux advocates here. Read the comments again: it’s the pro-Windows posters who keep saying that Linux is crap – not that it’s not as good, mind you: that it’s totally unusable (which is simply not true).
So if religious types irk you, then the subject of your criticism on this thread should be the anti-Linux posters, not the pro-Linux ones.
and spout about how Microsoft is evil, and every decision they make is a bad one.
Well, they are an abusive monopoly. That doesn’t mean that they’re evil, as corporations have no sense of right or wrong. They are, however, predatory. That is the nature of monopolies.
In any case, one must distinguish between the company and the product. I have nothing against Windows, it’s a capable OS – I just prefer Linux. I have a Xbox (I’ve actually developed games that had an Xbox version). I saw the Xbox360 at E3 and it looks like a cool machine – though I have to say I found the PS3 demo very impressive (no, I didn’t stand in line for 2 1/2 hours to get it, I saw a movie of it on the Web). Anyway, that is to say that I don’t mind Microsoft product, but I do mind how they have conducted themselves in the marketplace. Sure, as a corporation they are free to be ruthless, but as a customer I am free to not only disapprove, but actively promote alternatives. And you’re free to disagree. However, let’s try to kepe to the facts and not say false things, like many anti-Linux posters have done in this thread.
Now, back to the non existant crashes I have had… So when a program locks up and I am unable to stop it, I have to hit the power button on my computer. Sounds like a crash to me.
Console app or X app? If X crashes (most likely due to unstable drivers or – as was the case for me – outdated firmware), then you can kill it without restarting your PC. Google “magic sysrq” for more info.
Seriously, it’s very rare that an app crashes Linux. However, it can happen that the system will slow down, especially if there are no limits on the processes. It hasn’t happened to me in a while, but it can occur. Usually waiting around for a few minutes will cause the system to return to normal.
Now, for Linux, if grandma were to log into a Linux box as root and she tried to install a piece of software; Guess what? I’d have to go over and fix the mess. See, it’s no different!
Why? First, one would expect that as a good grandson you’d either install grandma’s software (which is easy through a remote connection via SSH), or that you’d set her up with a “newbie” distro such as Lindows or XandrOS. That said, even with modern “classic” distros such as Ubuntu or Mandriva, there are front-ends for the software installation that do not require you to login as root (though you must give the root password when the program is started). That greatly minimizes the risks – as long as you don’t configure “Unstable” repositories, she won’t be able to hose her system even if she wanted to.
Enough with the FUD, please.
Once a Windows box is configured properly it *IS* the safest desktop OS around.
What’s your source on that? Any OS, properly configured and with the right security policies, can be safe. In such controlled conditions, Windows isn’t any safer than Linux, OS X, the BSDs, etc.
However, the fact is that the spambots cramming e-mail boxes with viagra ads and the zombies that are used for DDoS attacks are Windows machines. So whatever you may believe in theory, in the real world Windows security is a serious problem.
I use OS ____ as my operating system.
Its the best every thing else sucks! No one understands security like I do.
My OS is secure.
It never needs anything to be fixed. In fact its so incredibly reliable I can post on OSNews everyday about how great my OS is and however one else’s sucks. Did I mention those people who don’t use my OS are also stupid?
I think the real dirty little secret is was anyone actually stupid enough to think they would rewrite the WHOLE kernel? That’s almost equivalent to flushing 15 years of work down the toilet.
.NET was never going to form the core of the kernel. However, it has always been planned to and will still form the core of the WAP, you know, the thing that is not Win32. The main API for application developers. Not the kernel.
The “core of Longhorn” is what application developers and user will build against, that will be WAP, and it’s still .NET.
Windows Operating System != Windows Kernel. The Windows operating system is an application platform, not the NT kernel.
“Instead, the .Net Framework will be the core for a small subset of Longhorn, specifically the Windows API Platform (WAP), which consists primarily of the “Avalon” Windows presentation system and the “Indigo” Windows communications system, our tipsters say.”
“Small” subset indeed, that’s just about the entire OS platform, with Win32 on the side and the Native API under them.
Windows Operating System != Windows Kernel. The Windows operating system is an application platform, not the NT kernel.
“Instead, the .Net Framework will be the core for a small subset of Longhorn, specifically the Windows API Platform (WAP), which consists primarily of the “Avalon” Windows presentation system and the “Indigo” Windows communications system, our tipsters say.”
“Small” subset indeed, that’s just about the entire OS platform, with Win32 on the side and the Native API under them.
since .net2.0 is announced for win xp it is not a secret for anyone blessed with a brain…
I dont really see the point in bashing Linux, if not for Linux and the open source movement, you would probably still be using Windows 95 or 98. The open source movement makes MS update and fix problems in their systems, it makes them innovate, if not, then people would move to open source. A great new project is PCBSD, if you dont know about it check it out, the programs install just like in Windows, and they run seprate from the system so if one program crashes its just that program, not the whole system.
“do you people work, oops thats why you want a free OS” Are you serious with this comment? Not only did you insult hard working developers who want to make the software world a better place(Firefox is free, and its better than IE) But more importantly you insulted many people about thier disposition in life, how dare you talk down to somone who has maybe lost their job or has fallen on bad times because of resons beyond their control, do you laugh at the homeless on the streets? take money out of the fundrasing jar? So maybe that family living in the projects cant afford that new Dell computer with the newest MS OS, why wouldnt Linux such as Linspire or Xandros or Ubuntu fit their needs? it would run on their older hardware and give them a modern OS.
I run both Windows and Linux at the public library where I work, we use Windows for the computers on the floor and Linux for the servers, but since were non profit we dont get much money, so what we’er going to have to do is take our Win 98 boxes and put either Xandros or Linspire on them.
I replaced all my boxes at home with Ubuntu, my laptops with Ubuntu, my parents run Windows, I admin their system but like any good admin, I run spyware sweepers, I installed a firewall, deleted the IE icon and replaced it with Firefox, put them behind a router, and a bunch of other things, yes you can make Windows safe, but theres still ways for them or you to get infected with any type of virus or spyware.
What I’m really trying to get at is, MS needs open source, without it millions would still be using IE, and MS wouldnt want to release IE7, and open source needs MS, we need a goal to strive for, we need someone in the lead so we can innovate, eventually I hope open source wins out, when it does, it will be vastly better than anything a commercial company can offer.
Use what works for you.
Well said !
Possibly the most sensible post in this whole thread (and in many others).
No doubt, some will argue with it though
You are providing a valiant effort trying to counter the FUD spewed out by people that have never used Linux. Its amazing that the people trying to dismiss Linux are the ones that have never used it but just recycle myths created by other trolls. Your arguments are balanced and not flamebait as are the ones from the so called “zealot haters (who are the worst zealots out there)” e.g. lumburgh etc
These Microsoft only zealots have invested so much time in the Windows world that they’d feel like a fish out of water with a new OS. And i guess that is far too intimidating to learn something that they think will take them out of the comfort zone.
For 90% of users out there who only use mail, internet, office programs etc, Linux and OSS products more than fit the bill and do it more securely and without the sticking plaster programs like virus checkers/spyware removers.
Your best be to save repeating yourself is to create a web page of your answers and just post the URL with a comment like “Read, digest and understand before opening your mouth. It’s better to be thought a fool than opening your mouth and proving it”