An Apple Developer reportedly recommended that KHTML developers use Apple’s WebCore engine (that’s based on KHTML). This follows some controversy over Apple’s habit of “giving back” updates to KHTML in unmanageable chunks, and many open source advocates crying foul. Update: This description was changed from an earlier version which implied that Apple would drop KHTML in favor of WebCore, which is not an accurate statement.
I am not the one who is depressed …
You call yourself a professional, and an expert, but yet you know nothing. Oh, by the way, the idiot that setup my computer was me. I have windows, Lunar Linux, Free BSD, Gentoo, Ubuntu, Solaris 10, Linspire, Mandriva, Fedora, Mepis, ReactOS, and BeOS all on my computer, and I am going to add Symphony tonight. But I bet you only know a few of those.
I said (talking about linux):It’s improved drastically since I started using it in 2000
you said: No , wrong , ignorant , it as improved since its first release and change of license to GPL in 1991 , you are irrelevant and of no consequence to whats happening in GNU/Linux.
So, It has improved since 2000 as well, unless you are trying to tell me that it improved from 1991 to 2000, and then stopped improving.
I said: gaming, well, I wont touch that, but linux is horrible in that field”
You said: No but then again , it whont stop you from saying lies …
Tell me, Mr. Genuis, who has only seen screenshots of Linux, what are these top notch games that Linux has? Oh, and if you say winex, or transgaming, then you are really out of touch. Winex is nice, but it is far from an answer to the horrible state of linux gaming. (And yes, I do play WoW on Linux sometimes, just for convience sinceI used linux the most)
I said: When you take down the evil MS, and the evil Apple, then what?
You said: Interesting choice of word , evil , I prefer Bad or misguided or miss managed at the moment. Life goes on as usual those company did noy exist prior to the 70’s. They can disapear and it would not mather much.
Well, hmmm, tell me how good computing was pre 1970? How was the PC market? Where would the pc market be right now if it wasn’t for Apple, then IBM, then Microsoft. Yeah, i put them in that order for a reason. Here is your history lesson. Apple pioneered the first pre-assemled home computers, that were not too expensive. IBM came along (and had many clones) populated many homes with pc’s. Taking the market away from apple. Then Microsoft release windows 95, which allowed even the dumbest of people (including you) to be able to run a pc.
So, when you get out of HS, and then College, and have studied something, why don’t you reply then.
I thought the reasons the KDE folks rejected Apple’s patches were as follows:
1) The patches were large and undocumented
2) The Apple’s coding standards were subpar in contrast to KHTML’s
3) Apple’s patches introduced too many bugs and regressions.
4) Apple’s patches broke stuff in KHTML
5) Apple neither gives a damn about free software, nor building a thriving free software community
6) In honor of /., profit
Given all these, I really doubt I want Apple to be contributing to KHTML.
“linux users are a minority. What a retard, how can you just say that they are a majority.”
I got the worldwide numbers from many source.
From those who sale it , from the FTP site , from the download site , from the cheapbytes sellers, from the UN report , from the consultant, etc …
Interesting fact on Apple Hardware GNU/Linux is running on 7% of whats shipped last year. Goes to 60% on older hardware . will probably go up since Tiger needs even more ressource hardware wise.
“No , Darwin is “BSD” codenamed for Apple”
no, darwin is a fork of BSD as well as a blend of BSD and MACH. Just like WebCore is a fork of KHTML.
And a UN Report, the UN is a joke. And linux is still a minority. There can only be one majority, and that at the moment is windows, and yes, that is also world wide.
Again, BSD = free. Owner? Who owns the code? If I fork something with a BSD license, make some changes, give the original authors credit, and then sell it, does that mean I own it or they own it?
I do believe that means I own the fork, and they own the original.
Oh, and you can do whatever you want to do with BSD code, as long as you give credit to those that came before you. So, what can’t you do with BSD code? You can even close the source up if you feel like it.
GPL, no one owns the code, even if you fork something, and pracically rewrite it, you still don;t own it. On top of that, you can’t close it, and you have to release your code as well. GPL is the owner of source, under it’s license. The GPL controls, and dictates how you can use the code, unlike BSD, which allows you to do whatever the hell you feel like.
If the GPL is so “free”, why did they come out with the LGPL?
GPL….you’re making it sound so damn restrictive. There are companies out there who uses GPL APIs…like IBM, Oracle, BEA, etc. etc. who makes closed source apps.
As I understand the concept of freedom espoused by advocates of free software, like Stallman, and maybe moulinneuf?, freedom to take other’s freedom away, as when you close-source your project which was built on other’s free software, is a grievous wrong, and is therefore expressly forbidden by the GPL.
This thread has gone to hell and not back.
1.) Re-read your posts once guys. This isn’t an English Teacher forum, but it does have people who can spot blatant and repetitive grammar and spelling errors.
2.) Quit arguing over different interpretations of the same facts. Someone mentioned linux users as a majority? This is true…in the web server world and some other areas. But you have to say that, because people auto-magically assume “desktop” because they think that computers were destined to be PC’s.
3.) The topic is apple and khtml. Since khtml is not limited to one OS, but about 4 or 5, discussing linux isn’t really in the current topic line.
4.) I’m not a moderator, just hoping to see people get back on topic and quit posting the same rants, mindless zealoutry, and rude insults to said zealouts and fan-boys.
Apple didn’t do anything wrong, according to the License. Khtml is whining because Apple didn’t do enough. Both of them just need to part ways now, or reach out to each other again. Whether this is just a PR stunt or not, the khtml group so respond by saying, “We’ll adopt WebCore, if you provide the help that you said you will provide” and challenge Apple to do the right thing. If Khtml continues to expect too much (because Apple is a major player, so I can see why expectations would be high), then we will continue to hear complaints, cause they have their own business to run as well.
And to finish on my rant about licenses, I believe BSD is a true, free open source license, while the GPL, is in essecene, a propietiery (spelling) open source license. By that, I mean it protects other peoples intelluctal property, while opening it up to the world. The LGPL is kind of like a hybrid between the two. That’s my take on the licenses.
“Dude, as soon as you learn the difference between there/their and your/you’re, I’ll stop calling you dude.”
No problem , as soon as you can reply to me in french from Quebec and grow a brain I will stop calling you moron.
“There is some question about the legality of what LT did with Minix to come up with Linix, and I know SCO has been making noises that way.”
Not at all because GNU/Linux is not Unix , its not Minix either , the Maker of Minix testified to that in court.
“There are two reasons corporations like BSD.”
Thats why Microsoft is scared of GNU/Linux … And all BSD deployment are switched at a very fast rate to GNU/Linux.
“1) Extremely generous license. All you have to do is give copyright notice and you can do whatever you like. You can be generous and release code. You can be selfish and keep it. ”
I have to Agree on that its actually right , on that part this time. It shows why BSD is Crap too as Free and Open Source … But yet BSD is beeing fade out.
“2) SCO can’t touch BSD. SCO cannot make a single claim to ownership of that code which will not be thrown out of court.”
BSD is UNIX. I dont put it past SCO to try and go after BSD.
” Anybody who uses BSD (and keeps the copyright statement intact) will never end up in a protacted legal struggle like the SCO-IBM-AIX-Linux mess. ”
GNU/Linux is not UNIX , also SCO is the former Caldera who changed there name because they bought SCO. From what I hear most of the code SCO dispute whas added by them and the rest is not there’s.
“So perhaps what you ought to do is take keyboard into semi-literate hand and thank the regents of the University of California for the incalculable gift they have given the world. ”
What gift ? stealing the work of there students who used Unix and called there improvment BSD ? BTW learn what illiterate means … Its not the same thing as find someone who can write properly. I Could write them about changing there license to a real free and open source license called GPL.
“Freedom from is every bit as important as Freedom to”
I dont get my freedom lessons from slave , sorry.
“Your idea of freedom is so … “double plus good”. ”
Freedom is not my idea , I am not as delusional as you are to imply such a thing , I live by it … and whas tought it by other free and freedom people. You cant understand.
“And keep on accusing Apple of stealing code. It’s very entertaining.”
I am not accusing , they are convicted offender on that point.
” You’ve yet to show an instance where they’ve violated the GPL, LGPL, or the BSD license. ”
I dont have to show anything , Darwin is BSD , KHTML is LGPL They violated the spirit of those license wich are Open Source , have they done something illegal , no , but the GPL , they aint so stupid as to play with it , or it would be the end of them.
I can argue that all the Language used to create Mac OS X are Open Source and not there’s to close ( dev or company ) , but then your argument , I am sure would be , that the code made is the work of the developper who made it, but then you cant explain why its Apple owning the ownership since its free and Open Source.
I stick by my original point Open Source alone is crap.
Apple did what they had to according to the LGPL, and theu did mor than they had to according to the BSD License. Now, isn’t that Apple’s right? Aren’t they free to use open source the way they feel fit to, as long as they aren’t violating any license? Last time I checked, the only god given right we have, is the freedom to choose. all other freedoms, or so called freedoms, are based on that one, primitave, god-given freedom. Apple has the freedom to choose what they want to do. Open source developers have the freedom to choose what they want to do. Some open source projects are designed and developed for other developers to “steal the code”. Some developers encourage other developers to “steal” their code, because they just want to help create better programs. Some developers don’t want people to profit off of their work, and that’s their choice as well.
So, mister moulin fake, the real freedom in the open source community, is the freedom of what the developers want to do with their code. The freedom is other developers being able to help out, or fork something. Open source is free, because people have a choice in what to do with it.
Est-ce que vous me comprenez?
KHTML people are only whining about those Apple Fanboys(like you) who is telling khtml developers to copy-paste the webcore code into KHTML and how Apple works with coperation with khtml developers. They can’t do that! Can you understand that? All those Apple Fanboys started this mess. So can you please read the fucking Zach’s blog and try to understand it?
First of all, mulan, I know the history of computing, I was condensing it. And Linux does not have a god gaming market, and you haven’t been all that factual this evening till that last post, where you showed that you at least knew your history.
anonymous coward, who says I am an apple fan boy? I don’t have an apple, and I mainly run linux, and get stuck in windows some. And, maybe you can get your head out the sand, read both sides of the story, analyze the situation, and then add an opinion. Instead, you rush in, insinuating that KHTML devs are good, never can mislead, lie, or pass blame, and that Apple is evil, cause they are a corporation.
I’ve heard more than 10 different sides to this story now, and half of them blame apple for not cooperating, and half of them say apple didn’t do anything wrong and khtml devs are whiners.
Now, blame it on fanboys all you want, but remember, blogs are still opinions. ALLLLLL and I repeat ALLLL opinions are biased. KHTML developers are going to make themselves look better, and Apple developers are going to make themselves look better. Really, how gullable are you people. Bandwagon trolls, that’s all the apple fanboys and khtml fanboys are. Look at both sides.
Just cause khtml is open source, doesn’t make the developers saints and angels. Sad, how Apple is the underdog, evil empire here, and no one will look at both sides. But I guess, since the khtml developers come out and whine a lot more than the Apple PR machine rolls, it’s going to warp your brain that way.
Again, they need to just part ways, because their is too much friction now.
“And to finish on my rant about licenses”
You where finished and wrong … you can rant all you whant its not going to change the fact and reality.
“I believe BSD is a true, free open source license”
I know its not.
“while the GPL, is in essecene, a propietiery (spelling) open source license. ”
No , its not , proprietary as an owner who control everything , with the GPL the last user is given the right to ownership.
“By that, I mean it protects other peoples intelluctal property”
And beeing wrong , as it protects everyone and give right to the code…
“while opening it up to the world. ”
BSD is open to the world exept for the possibility ro close it making it none free and not Real Open Source.
“The LGPL is kind of like a hybrid between the two. ”
Its a bridge with the proprietary not the other Open Source.
Open Source is compatible with GPL.
“That’s my take on the licenses.”
too bad its innacurate.
In other news
there’s a cold front approaching hell and lows are expected to reach 32 degrees Fahrenheit. When asked about this, the dark one said, “It’s gotten to the point where ‘A snowball’s chance’ is actually pretty good.
They could have said from the beginning: “We are going to pull of a fork, because KHTML is close to what we need, but still a lot has to be done. If you like you can pull the source-code once we release, and then you can pick the code you want to port back, or you can leave it”
Instead they tried to look like a good community member, and good community members try do avoid a fork as long as possible (even if the license allowes forking any time). Then they closed off their own development process, letting nobody in, and now they generously offer the KHTML proggers to become dependent on the apple fork by back-porting the fork that would not have needed to be forked in the first place. I call such behaviour arrogant, and it shows that the corporate culture at apple is deeply anti-community. As long as apple is able to pay their developers, they can continue to be that closed of, but if they get in trouble financially they will find it hard to create a community around their products which helps with free bug reports.
But…am I the only one remembering a “Apple, as a good opensource citizen…blabla” statement on Safari commercial webpage?
Yeah, legally they’re ok…but morally not at all.
http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/view/1046
“””
They could have said from the beginning: “We are going to pull of a fork, because KHTML is close to what we need, but still a lot has to be done. If you like you can pull the source-code once we release, and then you can pick the code you want to port back, or you can leave it”
“””
I agree they could handle their relationships better. Sounds like they could provide some better documentation as well.
As for the following paragraph, how can they open up their development process?! When I worked for DEC our processes and sources were closed to the public. DEC did work more closely with universities but still, what they got or saw was what we wanted them to see. It is a corporate thing. They jealously guard everything they do and how they do it. You can’t even BEGIN to expect them to “open up”, that is a crazy thought. It won’t happen. If the folks who created khtml don’t like Apple using their code, and giving back the minimum then they should change the terms of the license.
If they are meeting requirements, fine. Leave it at that and just take whatever they cough up and use it instead of complaining about it.
“””
Instead they tried to look like a good community member, and good community members try do avoid a fork as long as possible (even if the license allowes forking any time). Then they closed off their own development process, letting nobody in, and now they generously offer the KHTML proggers to become dependent on the apple fork by back-porting the fork that would not have needed to be forked in the first place. I call such behaviour arrogant, and it shows that the corporate culture at apple is deeply anti-community. As long as apple is able to pay their developers, they can continue to be that closed of, but if they get in trouble financially they will find it hard to create a community around their products which helps with free bug reports.
“””
I am sure not all of you here are OSS developers. Have you ever read the papers you had to sign when you got your current job? I don’t know about your company[ies], but mine is so tight… I rewrote some in-house application in Python which sped it up and made it better all around. I asked months ago if I could offer it up for one of the Python success stories and it is such a BIG DEAL. They are so paranoid that the code will reveal to the world too much of our “patented” (yes, honestly I think it is) database schema (even tho’ it only touches a few fields in a few tables) and somehow cause the entire western civilization to crumble into ruins.
This, people, is the mindset of corporate America.
A lot of people have been coming up with their versions of “the problem”. Some think Apple is being mean and with-holding patches. Some think the KDE devs aren’t good enough or don’t have enough free time to keep up with Apple. None of these is the actual problem.
The problem is that instead of maintaining KTHML as a cross-platform rendering engine, Apple rapidly begin adding MacOS-specific code to it to get their required feature-set out of the door as fast as possible. Having started out talking about collaboration, they quickly forked KHTML into the MacOS-only Webcore, from which it became prodigiously difficult to merge changes back into KHTML.
While I can’t comment on this specific case, the general case is that reducing reusability by quick feature updates is something that increases the maintainability load in the future and makes it progressively harder to add new features. It’s not recommended.
It is also true that Apple have been reticent to let KDE developers see the comments from the RCS and Bug-Tracking systems, which is necessary to put the changes from Apple in context. This is a bit strange really, the Mozilla Foundation has demonstrated that it’s possible to do this without any major risks[1].
The title of the this article, incidentally, is misleading. KDE can’t use Webcore unless Apple provides them with Cocoa as well, or at least a compatibility layer. Apple’s Webcore now contains a lot of Objective-C Cocoa calls. KHTML is still a reasonably multi-platorm C++ application. It would be extraordinarily difficult, and ultimately self-defeating, to try to integrate Apple’s Webcore into KDE.
—————–
[1] Of course the recent pre-1.0.4 vulnerability announcement from Firefox damages that case, but that’s one episode in nearly ten years of open-source Mozilla development.
“1) Extremely generous license. All you have to do is give copyright notice and you can do whatever you like. You can be generous and release code. You can be selfish and keep it. ”
I have to Agree on that its actually right , on that part this time. It shows why BSD is Crap too as Free and Open Source … But yet BSD is beeing fade out.
That belies a rather sad, overzealous attitude. By focusing on such a narrow, absurdly arbitrary definition of “free,” you appear to be ignoring the wider reality anyone should be free to use the license they want, be it GPL, LGPL, BSD, MIT, or a closed/proprietary license. To attempt to insist otherwise is to attempt to deny the basic principles of *actual* freedom. And by that I mean “freedom” as defined by the dictionary, not as defined by some beligerent academic who couldn’t make it in the private sector (if the stellar success of Hurd is any indication).
as soon as you can reply to me in french from Quebec
Why would he want to be able to speak a regional patois that is despised by actual French people?
It is evident that you just like to argur, can’t back up your facts, cant accept that fact that their can be only one majority (if their were more, then why would you call it a majority…moron), and can’t accept that fact the linux is the minority. Sure, the server world is dominated by linux, unix, bsd, etc. But, the home, and office arena is dominated by windows.
The UN is a worthless body politic, period. I wont go into my political views, but, in reality, the UN is worthless.
Funny how you are trying to demand that we speak our version of french, to please you, when I have seen posts on here originating from france. Funny, how they speak english fine, don’t care that we are speaking english, and oh yeah, english isn’t one of their national languages.
and all your bable about hell, heaven, and religion in these threads, is a joke. Next you will tell us how their is no god, and that you are an aethesis. Oh, and to quote a radio host here in america, Michale Savage, “Liberalism is a mental disorder”. And you my friend are very mental. You give good liberals a bad name. Quit trying to argue, say your an expert, but yet, have no facts, or expertise, to back up your claims.
Beeing a zealot is “not” something bad.
“That belies a rather sad, overzealous attitude.”
Nothing sad about what I do , and I am not being overzealous.
“By focusing on such a narrow, absurdly arbitrary definition of “free,” ”
I am not focusing , I am explaining why BSD aint free and not Real Open Source. Its not absurdly arbitrary otherwise the majority would have been using BSD and promoting it instead of like they are doing now with GNU/GPL.
“you appear to be ignoring the wider reality anyone should be free to use the license they want”
No , the wider reality is that some people dont know what license are , they promote license that dont protect there right or give them right and have been shown by 35 years in the IT industry at large to be a failure. Most of those who do so are not defending there point of view they are lying by ignorance and also lying because there point is false and wrong and are making up myth and story to push there own agenda.
The Fact is that GNU/Linux is whats winning because its Real Open Source and come with an army of defender who is growing everyday ( freedom as to be guarded and defended , or its lost or taken ). GNU/Linux as more company promoting it and working on it and sharing improvment then what all the UNIX and all BSD put togheter have and are all making money. We also have the community distribution that are not in it for the money , it also permit legally for people around the world to afford a complete OS , you can bulshit yourself all you whant and make lies.
” be it GPL, LGPL, BSD, MIT, or a closed/proprietary license. ”
No , again doing something wrong to others should not be tolerated or legal. A license should be something wich gives right and protect rights , all the others license are some kind of repressing measure that are bad on many level.
“To attempt to insist otherwise is to attempt to deny the basic principles of *actual* freedom. ”
Real freedom is actualy guarded and protected by the majority , people like you twist and lie and make up story by using every little possible angle as to help there point.
Freedom is a right wich is given by the majority and those who protect it. It is not take the right to do as you wish because no one said you could not or are there to impose the law. Freedom starts at yours and end where the freedom of others Begins.
“And by that I mean “freedom” as defined by the dictionary”
Yes thats what “I” and not you am defending.
1 : the quality or state of being free: as a : the absence of necessity, coercion, or constraint in choice or action b : liberation from slavery or restraint or from the power of another : INDEPENDENCE c : the quality or state of being exempt or released usually from something onerous <freedom from care> d : EASE, FACILITY <spoke the language with freedom> e : the quality of being frank, open, or outspoken <answered with freedom> f : improper familiarity g : boldness of conception or execution h : unrestricted use <gave him the freedom of their home>
2 a : a political right b : FRANCHISE, PRIVILEGE
synonyms FREEDOM, LIBERTY, LICENSE mean the power or condition of acting without compulsion. FREEDOM has a broad range of application from total absence of restraint to merely a sense of not being unduly hampered or frustrated <freedom of the press>. LIBERTY suggests release from former restraint or compulsion <the released prisoner had difficulty adjusting to his new liberty>. LICENSE implies freedom specially granted or conceded and may connote an abuse of freedom <freedom without responsibility may degenerate into license>.
” not as defined by some beligerent academic who couldn’t make it in the private sector (if the stellar success of Hurd is any indication). ”
Richard Stallman is not defining anything , Freedom whas defined a long time ago , he is just acting to protect it , he is personnaly a millionaire , the FSF is also a very whealthy group, and its easy to point out to hurd as a failure when it exist and is beeing used and being developed , GNU/Linux and Debian and many other thing exist today due to the involvment of the FSF and Richard Stallman.
“Why would he want to be able to speak a regional patois that is despised by actual French people?”
For knowledge , that is not translated, that he cant reach as it whas written in french , I dont get where you see the French from France despising us , probably another thing only happening in your mind. I could also return the same comment which English ?
Freedom is NOT the possibility to do everything you whant , otherwise I can stand up , find out who and where you are and go and kill you.
Freedom is a right given and protected by other to whom you give the same right and will protect when under attack.
“It is evident that you just like to argur”
Whats evident is that your ignorant , like to make up lies and go on to personnal attack once your first point is defeated and shown as false.
” can’t back up your facts”
I did , up to the point where it became clear that you where not after the truth but in fact promoting your views and ranting on thing you dont like because you dont know better.
“cant accept that fact that their can be only one majority (if their were more, then why would you call it a majority…moron)”
Because its false as shown by what I wrote : GNU/Linux user are a majority vs Apple user and are a minority like everyone else vs Windows.
” and can’t accept that fact the linux is the minority. ”
Because it aint GNU/Linux is not a minority.
” Sure, the server world is dominated by linux, unix, bsd, etc. ”
No just GNU/Linux , the other are beeing replaced and fade out.
“But, the home, and office arena is dominated by windows. ”
Another word which you dont know the meaning but use : “dominated” , all the time people compare the two and most often then not its GNU/Linux who come out winning.
“The UN is a worthless body politic, period. I wont go into my political views, but, in reality, the UN is worthless. ”
The UN as NOTHING to do with Politics , as the UN is in every country regardless of there politics. Who care about your political views , everything about you is irrelevant , if its worthless then why almost everyone is in it ? Even your own country , Another thing you dont know anything about due to your failure of an education.
“Funny how you are trying to demand that we speak our version of french”
I demand nothing , I said , I would use it but you dont understand it at all and so does many others here. I am using the common language.
“when I have seen posts on here originating from france. ”
I guess , you dont get that one too , on top of all the rest.
“Funny, how they speak english fine”
I write english fine , otherwise you would not communicate with me at all or be able to.
“don’t care that we are speaking english, and oh yeah, english isn’t one of their national languages. ”
You really like to twist what I say to the extreme , and are showing yourself as ignorant in doing so.
“and all your bable about hell, heaven, and religion in these threads, is a joke”
Well “everything” seem to be a joke and a farce to you.
“Next you will tell us how their is no god, and that you are an aethesis. ”
I am not telling you anything or trying to educate you or pushing an agenda , I am stating proven facts and showing your lies for what they are.
“Oh, and to quote a radio host here in america, Michale Savage, “Liberalism is a mental disorder”. ”
You meant in the United States , your an Etats-unians talking to a Real American from CANADA wich means :
C ourageous
A mericans
N oble
A mericans
D efender of
A mericas
your “of” America your not “america”
“And you my friend are very mental.”
Yes , I use my brain unlike you who are mentally hill and uneducated.
“You give good liberals a bad name. ”
Thats because I am a REAL American Socialist.
“Quit trying to argue”
There is no argument , I dont respect you and show everything you wrote as false and wrong.
” say your an expert, but yet, have no facts, or expertise, to back up your claims.”
I am an Expert , I have given the facts and real life example but yet you refuse them , I showed my expertise in showing you as a liar racist and ignorant moron, I make no claim , I state facts.
The point I stated is that Open Source is crap alone , BSD is not Real Open source because it can be closed and aint free as it as an owner wich is not the user and dont give rights at all , And Cooperation is “imposible” with proprietary. You can rant on those fact all you whant , it whont change there veracity.
Apple saved “millions” if not “billions” by taking KHTML and is now playing its old trick , what there doing is Legal , because we set the rules and did not fore saw this happening , its our mistake , unlike you we learn from them.
Legal yes , right no.
I have to agree that your gonna disagree , lie and make false statements , I have shown your true character and where your ethics and values are , I will , now , stop from showing what you are by stopping my reply to your insanity and ignorance.
Have a good day.
Let me tell you something, you know nothing about freedom, but rather socialism, which isn’t complete freedom. You have nothing but contempt for companies that make money, and you believe that everything should be free. Reality is, nothing in life is free. You say you fight for freedom, but so did the Russians in the late 19th century. So did the chinese in the 20th century. Where is that freedom that they thought they were getting? Were is the equality that was promised to them? It’s people like you, with your back turned to reality, and your wishful thinking, that hurt society.
Freedom of choice is the only freedom given by god. Freedom of choice is the most basic, fundemental freedom there is. By saying that selling software, with closed source is illegal, when it is a choice of the company, is saying that you don’t believe in freedom, unless it’s your type of freedom. You are an extremist (and I knew that when you started talking about that worthless UN). You must be in the academic arena, hiding behind your desk, because society doesn’t agree with your version of freedom.
Sorry, but i live in a free society everyday, where the government is slowly taking those freedoms from me. I lived in one of the most free states in the USA for 3 years (Montana), and I know what freedom is. Freedom is walking out your door, decided to do whatever you want to do, legal or illegal. But with that freedom comes responsibility, and if you choose to do something illegal, and get caught, you will get punished. But it is your right to choose to do somehting wrong, and god handed that down with Adam and Eve (if you know anything about christanity).
So, before you try to talk about freedom, you need to understand what freedom is.
Also, just because something is in development, doesn’t mean it’s not a failure. Hurd is a failure at the moment. It’s been in development for ages, still runs slower than hell, and, in reality, isn’t going to replace anything for quite sometime. That doesn’t mean that it can’t become something great, but, at the moment, it isn’t all that great.
Free software is great, it’s nice, it’s a good hobby to have. Linux is great, because it is an alternative, another choice for people to choose. But, it shouldn’t be forced down someone’s throat, like you want it. You want to take down MS, Apple, why? For What? Sure MS releases crappy products, markets them like crazy, and people by them. But isn’t it the right of the people to buy MS products? Likewise with Apple, they might take open source software, and use it for themselves, but staying within the rules of the license. That’s their right, that’s freedom.
This is my last post, as I know you aren’t an expert, you are irrational, and naive. You claim to know everyhting, but yet can’t back up most of your statements with fact. you have the right to voice your opinion, to believe what you believe, to try and take down your “illegal” companies. I acknowledge those rights, as well as I have mine to exprees what I feel.
Apple and khtml didn’t work out, oh well. Apple has done other stuff in the open source community, so give them some damn credit. i am not an apple fan boy, but I am tired of open source zealots, trumping their biased, factless, opinions.
Apple is in business to make money, and I have no problem with that. If you don’t want to buy their products, then don’t. No one is forcing apple, and safari down your throat. You have the right to buy what you want (of course, that doesn’t apply to all countries).
I am done with you moulan. Next time we meet, maybe you will have more facts, than just trying to argue everything (down to someone saying the word hell, and you telling them they know nothing about hell, like you’ve been there..)
To the rest of the posters on this forum, it’s been great reading what you guys have posted. Sorry this forum got out of hand.
You have not shown any facts…period, so don’t try to say you have. The UN is a political body, whether it is made up of all countries or not, it is political. Get your head out the sand, your precious socialist, UN is crap and irrelevent in the world. Saying they aren’t political, because it’s made up of other countries, is like saying the american senate ins’t political because it’s made up of all the states.
You are like any other socialist I have met in America, you argue, don’t produce facts, run the conversation in circles, and try to out argue the person so you seem to be correct.
Everyone reading OSnews, can tell you that Linux is not a dominating force on the desktop, that that still belongs to windows. Anyone can tell you that linux is horrible as a gaming platform, and yes, I visit happypenguin everyday, but the quality of the games are not as good as commercial games. Which, there are a select few that are produced for linux, and their are a select few that run well with winex, but, are slow and not fully compatible (some run rather well though).
So, if you want facts I can bring them all day long, and so can everyone else who has posted facts against you, but you just argued those facts, with asine opinions. That’s what an extreme liberal does, and that’s what you are my friend.
I am done
Beeing a zealot is “not” something bad.
Sure it is. For one, it leads people to have an irrational emotional attachment to their own postions
I am explaining why BSD aint free and not Real Open Source.
Sure, if by “explaining” you mean indulging in a vitriolic temper-tantrum about how you don’t like BSD.
Its not absurdly arbitrary otherwise the majority would have been using BSD and promoting it instead of like they are doing now with GNU/GPL.
So your evidence that GPL is more free than BSD is: more people use it? Even if you took out the blatant appeal-to-majority, that argument still has a grand canyon-sized hole in it (namely, that you can’t show any correlation between volume of use and degree of “freedom”).
” be it GPL, LGPL, BSD, MIT, or a closed/proprietary license. ”
No , again doing something wrong to others should not be tolerated or legal.
Are you actually suggesting that it shouldn’t be legal to use a license that isn’t the GPL/GPL-compatible? Were you being ironic when you said you’re not a zealot?
A license should be something wich gives right and protect rights , all the others license are some kind of repressing measure that are bad on many level.
<laff> I think you’ll be hard-pressed to find anything in either (say) the BSD or MIT licenses that could be considered a “repressing measure.” At least, not without a lot of convoluted, sophist nonsense (please, that’s not a challenge).
“And by that I mean “freedom” as defined by the dictionary”
Yes thats what “I” and not you am defending.
1 : the quality or state of being free: as a : the absence of necessity, coercion, or constraint in choice or action
(emphasis mine) Are you entirely sure that you understand the part in bold?
“Why would he want to be able to speak a regional patois that is despised by actual French people?”
For knowledge , that is not translated, that he cant reach as it whas written in french
No, you were just trying to act elitist. You can admit it.
Freedom is NOT the possibility to do everything you whant , otherwise I can stand up , find out who and where you are and go and kill you.
Awww, that’s adorable. But unfortunately, I missed the part of social contract theory that says anything about an inherent right to source code, much less anything about a specific license.
“it leads people to have an irrational emotional attachment to their own postions”
No , wrong choice of word on your part ( due to your own ignorance of your own language I might add):
eal”ot, n. [F. z[‘e]lote, L. zelotes, Gr. ?. See
{Zeal}.]
One who is zealous; one who engages warmly in any cause, and
pursues his object with earnestness and ardor; especially,
one who is overzealous, or carried away by his zeal; one
absorbed in devotion to anything; an enthusiast; a fanatical
partisan.
Absolutely nothing wrong or dangerous with a zealot. There the one working for the UN , Red Cross , Oxfam , etc …
“if by “explaining” you mean indulging in a vitriolic temper-tantrum about how you don’t like BSD.”
No , I whas cooled and tampered and even do my language got insulting to the morons in my following reply , I stayed the same :
http://www.osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=10572&offset=30&rows=45#3…
“So your evidence that GPL is more free than BSD is: more people use it?”
NO , my point wich stayed the same is that Open Source alone is crap and that BSD is neither free or Open Source because :
– Open Source ( well some called Open Source by the OSI )
Open Source license can be close and made not open source anymore. Of wich BSD is among that group.
– BSD
1) can be closed to others
2) people can refuse to give the source
3) people can refuse to give back there improvments.
4) the owner is keeping ownership to himself after the transaction.
5) It give the user no rights at all
“Even if you took out the blatant appeal-to-majority, that argument still has a grand canyon-sized hole in it”
Like I said I whas stating a fact based on the events that occured and based on the history of the Proprietary company involved. There is NO argumentation , I am making you aware of facts.
“(namely, that you can’t show any correlation between volume of use and degree of “freedom”). ”
Again , this is not a debate , its a fact. People are using GNU/Linux because unlike BSD it is Real Open Source and is Really Free and all about freedom. If the two where the same or equal ( its not the case at all ) since BSD as been around since the 70’s , everyone would be using that.
“Are you actually suggesting that it shouldn’t be legal to use a license that isn’t the GPL/GPL-compatible? ”
NO , not at all , you made that suggestion , but if I whas asked to vote on that question my answer would be yes.What I said and keep repeating and wich is a fact is that Open Source in some case is not Real Open Source and that BSD is called Free and Open source when its neither.
“Were you being ironic when you said you’re not a zealot?”
No , I clearly said that I whas a zealot and that there is nothing wrong with zealot. Based on the actual meaning of the word and what zealot represent.
“I think you’ll be hard-pressed to find anything in either (say) the BSD or MIT licenses that could be considered a “repressing measure.” ”
Slavery by ownership.
” At least, not without a lot of convoluted, sophist nonsense (please, that’s not a challenge). ”
No , its perfectly clear , but people like you depend on it as its your thievery and your accomplice in that crime. ( bread and butter , income , you use it ). Your making tons of lies about what the GPL really is and what GNU/Linux Business is because frankly you have no clue whats its all about or even what your discussin now , even I find out new thing everyday. I am simply stating facts.
“1 : the quality or state of being free: as a : the absence of necessity, coercion, or constraint in choice or action ”
“Are you entirely sure that you understand the part in bold?”
Yes , thats why I whas the one quoting it.
No one absolutely need GNU/Linux , no one coerce you into using GNU/Linux , There are no constraint as you can switch from many offers. You can do what you whant with it. Once you give a copy of it the new user as the same right given to : access to do what he whants to do with it too.
“No, you were just trying to act elitist. You can admit it.”
No , and you can stop making lies about me and what I say ,
If he where to learn French he would be able to read , write and speak in French and all the works done by french people , this would be for is own good and knowledge , since I learned to communicate perfectly in English he surely can learn French too. But then again you and him have add a poor education and dont know most of the meaning of the word in your own language you employ.
“Awww, that’s adorable.”
Really ? an act of killing someobody else is adorable to you , I guess your even worst then he is.
” I missed the part ”
Not , just one part , you failed miserably as a human being even do someone tried to educate you. I am not arguing , I am not making a point , I am not discussing with you or with any other morons , I am making facts.
You guys have been making lies long enough, only someone really discusting would call Real Open Source something for wich the Source can be closed and calling something free wich that be closed and owned by only one.
Yes GNU/Linux come with obligation :
1) Defend it when under attack by Liar as your freedom depend on it.
2) Give to others the same right and freedom that you received.
I will add personnaly dont act like a BSD or proprietary thief.
@-=StephenB=-
I have to agree that your gonna disagree , lie and make false statements , I have shown your true character and where your ethics and values are , I will , now , stop from showing what you are by stopping my reply to your insanity and ignorance.
Have a good day.
Yes GNU/Linux come with obligation :
1) Defend it when under attack by Liar as your freedom depend on it.
Wow, you sure drank the kool-aid, didn’t you? Do you hold your right hand over your heart when you say that?
I have to agree that your gonna disagree , lie and make false statements , I have shown your true character and where your ethics and values are , I will , now , stop from showing what you are by stopping my reply to your insanity and ignorance.
Thanks, now I know what “I CRAIM VICTOLLY!!!” is in French.
You can’t reason with that wacko far left canadian socialist. He presents no facts at all. And by his mere suggestion that BSD isn’t open source because you can fork something and close it, is a completly ignorant statement. He must not realize that the oringinal source cannot be closed, but the fork can be closed and/or have a different license. I thought that freedom allowed you do choose what you wanted to do with your code, and the BSD allows that.
But, since he keeps saying the 70 percent of the open source software out there is under the GPL license, I would just say to him that the reason is because when using code from a GPL program, you are forced to license your code under the GPL. FORCED. That’s freedom? No, I would think that that is slavery.
He is just a radical socialist, the kind that doesn’t really tolerate freedom, unless it is their version of freedom. Plenty of nations have suffered because of people spreading factless opinions, that just felt good to hear, but his lies won’t work in here.
Their wont be a GPL software revolution lead by him.
did i miss something here, I coudl’ve sworn that there are two national languages in canada, French and English, so learning english was required for you.
And who said that i couldn’t read and write french? Those 10 years I studied french, must have not paid off. I just wont switch and use another language for an elitist, socialist, left-wing wacko, whose only goal is to spead lies, and try to take down software companies cause they didn’t hire him.