So, I went out to at least partially test this theory, and to do appropriate comparisons between Dell computers and Apple computers. I’m hardly the first one to take this challenge but I’ve decided it’s time to stop talking and taking other peoples’ word for it, and go get some concrete facts to put on (digital) paper.
He”s baaack!!
the wal mart price comparison guy.
Risc, did you ever take this site seriously then? I come here for the fun. Ha, this article and its comments is very entertaining… The most funny part is that Eugenia believes in this site as something serious. Well to each their own.
I remember when Apple announced Mac OS X most of the Windows users were begging Apple to release an x86 version of the OS (because OS X is far more superior than Windows). Now in 4 days no matter what you PC people think, we will have Tiger a desktop OS that is light years ahead of Windows. The hardware does not matter to me (although I strongly believe that the hardware architecture of a Mac is far more superior than a PC) but the software that comes in Tiger is far better (from a visual and usable point of view) than any consumer OS on the planet today. I know a lot of Windows guys drooling over Mac OS X and I know no Mac users drooling over Windows. Things are changing, people buy more and more Macs.
My name is George. I do not live with my parents and I am a proud mac zealot :-).
….ewww, you guys are like sooo icky, i can’t believe it. Get jobs, comb your hair and stop slouching.
hmm, i don’t know how he came to that moon prices.
Maybe this is localy different.
Here in germany, most home users buy their computers at food discounters. There offerings almost every month with a huge bunch of extras, don’t find at ragular pc’s or even mac.
Here is the lastet “Aldi PC” offering for April 28th for an example:
– Latest Intel® Pentium® 4 Prozessor 640 with HT-Technologie and EMT64, 3.2 GHz, 2MB L2 Cache, 800 MHz FSB
– Low noise AIRXL Heat Pipe cooling and SpeedStep® Technologie
– 3 (THREE!!) TV Tuners: # DVB-S, DVB-T, Analog TV and FM Stereo Radio, TWIN TV DVB-S and DVB-T simultan watching and recording.
– 1.024 MB RAM DDR 400 MHz 64 Bit dual channel memory
– ATI® Radeon X740 XL, GDDR3 Memory with 900MHz. ATI X740 XL GPU mit 425MHz, PCI-Express x16 Bus. NOTE: Aldi gets always its own Graphics boards, not available anywhere else. This maybe an overclocked x700 or an underclocked x800.
– WESTERN DIGITAL® 300 GB Harddisk 8MB Cache, 7200 U/Min., S-ATA 150
– WLAN 54 MBit/s, IEEE 802.11g, 802.11b
– PIONEER® 16x Dual Layer, Multi-Standard DVD-/CD-Burner
– LG 16x DVD-ROM
– Dolby Digital, Dolby certified Power DVD included, 8 Channel Intel® High Definition Audio
– Bluetooth
– Integrated USB 2.0 Flash-Smart-Card reader, reads and writes Smart Card, XD Card, Memory Stick, Memory Stick Pro, Multi Media Card, SD Card, Compact Flash Card, Smart Media Card, IBM MicroDrive
– 2x Firewire (IEEE 1394)1x Front, 1x Rear
– 6x USB 2.0, 2x Front, 4x Rear
– Fast Ethernet 10/100 MBit/s
– 56K V.9x PCI Daten Fax Modem
– Optical and COAX Audio connectors
Included Software:
– SkyPE (VoIP with 120 minutes free)
– Microsoft® Windows® XP Home Edition SP2
– Microsoft® Works Suite 2005 (includes: MS Word (full version), MS Works 8, MS Picture It! Foto Premium 10, MS Encarta Enzyklopädie 2005, MS AutoRoute 2005)
– Medion Home Cinema XL (includes: PowerCinema 4.0, Power Director™ 3.0 SE, PowerProducer 3, PowerDVD 6, Medi@show™ SE, Musicmatch)
– eTrust AntiVirus
– Videon
– Nero Burning ROM 6
– Nero Recode 2•SE
– WISO Mein Geld 5.0 SE (sometinhg like MS Money)
– DivX (OEM Version)
– System Recovery powerd by Symantec (maybe Ghost)
– AOL 9.0
the following peripherals are inculded too:
– wireless keyboard
– optical mouse
– headset with microphone
– remote control (infrared, like a TV)
Also included is a coupon for for the following free pieces:
– webcam
– 256MB memory stick
– pc stereo speakers
– scart kabel
The price for all the stuff above is 949 EUR.
The Apple Store gives me for that price:
exactly nothing, execpt the mac mini.
The cheapest Power Mac is 1.398,99 EUR and comes with
– G5, 1,8 GHz, 600MHz FSB, 512KB L2 Cache
– 256MB DDR400 SDRAM
– 80GB Serial ATA-Harddisk
– 8x SuperDrive (no Dual layer DVD Burner???)
– NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Ultra 64MB DDR Videomemory
– Internal 56K Modem
and nothing else!!
so, i think this shows clearly why almost no home user buys a Mac in germany
The Comparsion at the article seems to be really from mars
OS X is light years ahead of Windows. However, the hardware is comparable and in some cases light years behind x86 hardware. However, that really high-end stuff can be provided for ppc by other distributors than Apple.
Generally, Apple is just a really nice PC. It’s not light-years ahead.
>OS X is light years ahead of Windows.
in what? animation effects? (also known as screen compositioning).
Who cares about the OS???
The user wants to get the work done with the best and/or cheapest software possible. Home users wants to simply put in a cd or dvd of the latest gmae and it should run.
I like the mac too. It’s nice and polished. But there’s absolutly nothing that i can’t do with my AMD/Windows PC at least as good as with the mac.
So there is absolutly no need for mac anymore.
Even the design and construction studios/departments are switching to windows pc’s now.
I am working at big car maker and there are no mac or sun or other workstations in use. Everything has migrated to Windows and works well enough on cheap PC’s. This was a very big cost reduction for our company.
I am sure that we are not the only company who did it that way.
Nice post, I actually laughed
sarcasm
’cause we all know macs dont come with software or any ports whatsoever
/sarcasm
>sarcasm
>’cause we all know macs dont come with software or any ports whatsoever
>/sarcasm
sorry, i forget the because it is mentioned in a very small box on the left side of the first page of the store:
Mac OS X 10.3 “Panther”, iLife ’05 (umfasst iTunes, iPhoto, iMovie, iDVD und GarageBand), Art Directors Toolkit, FileMaker Pro Trial, OmniGraffle, OmniOutliner, GraphicConverter, Safari, QuickTime, iChat, iCal, iSync, DVD Player, Mail, Acrobat Reader, Classic-Umgebung und Apple Developer Tools
—
I don’t know if the software package of the aldi pc or of the power mac is more complete/better/more useable.
But the hardware specs and the price speaks fot itself.
I think that OS 10.3 isn’t really fun with 256 MB Ram.
The Aldi Pc comes with 1024MB, wich is fairly enough for XP and most applications and games too.
Also the 300GB HDD is big enough and very fast (8 MB Cache).
The Graphics board with the fast ATI GPU and 128 MB DDR3 Memory on an PCI Express Interface is also much much better than the FX5200 with 64MB DDR1 Memory on AGP.
It sounds stupid to say that this doesen’t matter because the OS X is better or the G5 CPU is faster then the newest gernation of Intel P4 with 2MB Cache.
Much more stupid is it to say that the Mac is cheaper in that case.
if you don’t believe me, compare for yourself:
http://store.apple.com/Apple/WebObjects/germanstore.woa
http://germany.aldi.com/product_02/product_171.html
Its kind of disconcerting to see someone brush away software so lightly, thats the part of the computer you actually use.
oh, and the free dev kit Xcode, comparable to dev studio, saves you only $800 (thats best non-academic rate) http://msdn.microsoft.com/howtobuy/vstudio/
I’m amazed that people still don’t understand Apple sells everything, not just hardware. Its a bundle.
Let me put it like this because many of us know enough about cars to compare them more objectively.
Can you imagine what would be look on your face if someone whit KIA comes to your Lexus and starts conversation about his 0,4 seconds better acceleration and 30L bigger trunk than your baby.
And his main argument is that you payed your best on earth family sport sedan for few thousands more. I really hope that this never happened. In theory if it happened imagine the look of Lexus owner face during this conversation!
With that look on their face Mac owners will look at your x86+win arguments if they are not productive or just having fun with theirs reliable, productive and so fun unix workstations for initially few hundred bucks more at this very moment.
So do your homework, drive them both and then we can argue about tech, speed, TCO, fun and ofcourse so forgotten productivity!
Experienced drivers can tell the difference after only few seconds of ride so give it a try.
F9…
“The user wants to get the work done with the best and/or cheapest software possible.”
I don’t. I want the software that gets out of my way and lets me work. I want an OS that doesn’t let viruses and worms destroy the performance on my computer and more importantly my work and my productivity.
Cheap = bad quality and bad value
Inexpensive means good value.
I’ll agree. Windows is cheap. Macs are Inexpensive when you factor in my time which isn’t worth zero dollars.
Windows and Linux may be short term faster. But I get more work done on my Mac than on my Windows computers. And I’m a Windows tech and have been since Windows 3.1 came out. I’m also heavily trained to make sure Windows runs at its best performance.
The plain fact for me is. Windows is too much of a hassle when it comes to making sure the firewall, AV software, defraging, etc., to keep Windows running let alone at peak performance.
I don’t have to worry about those with my Mac. What maintenance there is, runs at night when I’m not using my computer. And so far I don’t have to worry about having AV software running 24 hours a day. I just turn it on and run it once a month to confirm I have no viruses. 100% of my time is dedicated to non maintenance of my Mac.
I don’t care if I pay 3% more (if that much). My time is worth something. That’s why I have a Mac. And no I’m not rich. Steve Jobs can definitely be a a$$. And the stuff that comes out of his rear end stinks. But I prefer his products to Bill Gate’s products. It’s that simple.
>I am working at big car maker and there are no mac or sun or other workstations in use. Everything has migrated to Windows and works well enough on cheap PC’s. This was a very big cost reduction for our company.
I am sure that we are not the only company who did it that way.
Yes this is really typical in small companies today. Look what everyone else has and do the same (I think even Microsoft follows the same policies). Well here is a news flash for you. CIOs in the top fortune 500 are start handing out PowerBooks to employees. Why ? Simply because they are cheaper to maintain in the long run. No viruses just pure productive platform. So your will see in few years your manager will might start copying what others (maybe a little bit smarter) people do (that is use a Mac).
Cheers
and let me guess…. you’re laptop is 2″ thin? 9 lbs? Plastic? enjoy it :/
LETS GET TO THAT 180 POST PREDICTION!!!
BTW, that Aldi PC included Nero, Divx, powerdvd, etc… Most (NOT ALL) of the software listed there has a functional equivalent on the Mac:
Nero -> Disk Utility (plus other tools)
PowerDVD -> DVD Player
Divx -> Quicktime
It all boils down to what you want to do. You’re familiar with the tools provided with the “AldiPC”, so you look at it more favorably.
On the Hardware side, yes, I wish the Mini had a better video card. I’d love to do a bit o’ gaming on it, but I’m not even given the chance to… /sigh…
He complains about Dell’s bait and switch yet he forgot to mention Apple’s doing the exact same thing. The best example would be the Mac Mini. Even the most ardent Machead would advise people to buy more of the EXPENSIVE ram because you can’t upgrade it yourself easily.
This blind Mac/Apple worshipping is bordering on being a brainwashing cult. This is too weird for most people. It definitely would turn most people off and Mac will always be a weird niche. It’s just a piece of consumer product for goodness sake.
Steve jobs has a gift to inspire his people to create great things (something that the windows crowd lacks from the get go). Thats why you and every PC head do not get it. Computers for us is not just a bunch of 1s and 0s, it about art. “Real artists ship” and that is true on the software and hardware in regards to Apple Computers Inc. Now as far as CPU power for the buck goes ask the people from Virginia Tech to tell you how efficient the G5 is (powered by Mac OS X Server). They are… let me see… at the TOP 10 in the supercomputer list ? They did not used AMD or Intel (and of course Windows is not capable to run on supercomputers). And from what I hear more universities will adopt G5 in their computing farms. So please drop the my AMD CPU is better than your G5….
—
They done let me out…
They done called my name…
They done read the four chapters…
Master, hit the switch – Steve, its alive!!
Three days left before the beast is unleashed.
When I got my Powerbook (for what I wanted) it was cheaper than the Dell.
I paid close to $2,500 for my then top-of-the-line “15 PowerBook (1.25Ghz). I was looking at a Dell, but I couldn’t the same functions in an laptop that didn’t weigh less than 7 pounds.
What makes Apple’s laptops hard to compare to PC’s were size and weight. Most PC’s I looked at that had DVD burners were big and heavy. The light ones had the optical drive as separate. That was the killer for me. trying to get everything in one package. At 5 pounds and about 1 inch think I couldn’t beat it.
I guess I could have gone with one of the million “generic” PC OEM’s but I wanted a “name brand” Someone I knew somehting about, and knew someones else who had used them.
It’s been a while since I considered computers as anything else than a tool, ten-twelve years ago when I switched from Amiga to PC actually (hmm.
) and started writing embedded code.
Now, I started using a Mac to make an OS X version of my mini golf (http://www.funpause.com/gardengolf/) and found out that this darn little machine is hard to give up! My order for a mac mini is in the mail
Now I’m also finding out that Mac players are a credit to their machine, too, writing really nice suggestions for improving the game, and being supportive.
So, price is not all that counts
i wrote about the same thing a few months ago. the problem with dell is if you buy their base system, you’re not (excuse the pun) comparing apples to apples. you don’t get the same amount of stuff you get with an apple. when you build an equivalent system, the price is almost always the same or higher.
desktop comparison: http://hohle.net/scrap_post.php?post=50
laptop comparison: http://hohle.net/scrap_post.php?post=51
oracle thinks macs are cheaper: http://news.com.com/Oracle+uses+Apple+storage+gear/2100-1015_3-5480…
I like Macs, because of the TCO (Total Cost of Ownership).
They are powerful machines, relatively cheap, and yet they ‘just work’ out of the box.
They have next to no probs with viruses and are simple to set up. To do both simple things and complex things are very quick.
having a Mac is the best investment anyone can make who wants a powerful machine that just works.
It all boils down to how much you want to get engrained in a yearly PC upgrade cycle, which comes out way more expensive than an Apple computer. The next version of Windows is going to recommend 3Ghz, for Christ’s sake, while OS X Tiger still happily runs on a G3.
I’ve heard rumors, I’d want hard data thank you very much, that the cow is going to need a 3 Gig processor. I’m quite convinced it can’t be that bad because Microsoft are going to have a hard sell ahead of them if that is truly the case. A 3 gig machine is nothing spectacular anymore, but there are millions of machines that are not up to that spec.
In comparison, Tiger running on a G3 isn’t all that shabby.
On building your own computer: buddy of mine tried that too. You should have seen the rock bottom price he got for all the parts which his PC vendor happily supplied him with. Really cool to be able to get a machine at those prices.
He installed everything in the box and it looked really nice until he flipped the power switch and the motherboard said “Bzzzzt!”. Apparently, the smoke from melting motherboards is not good for your health
.
You’re going to say that the computer he bought, at rock bottom prizes [of course], was still cheaper, including his failed attempt at DIY, and you’ll be right no doubt.
Still, every $ he paid for that POS would be like pulling teeth. You want to build your own: knock yourself out, baby. I’ll buzz along quite happily driving my Mac
.
He installed everything in the box and it looked really nice until he flipped the power switch and the motherboard said “Bzzzzt!”. Apparently, the smoke from melting motherboards is not good for your health
.
This is sugesstive,not everybody with all respect is equall incompetent.My upgrade from a AMD_XP2500+ to a AMD64 3000+ ASUS motherboard did cost me less than €250.The 1GB ddr pc2700 memory bars the fx5700 graphics card, 2 80GB SATA HD’s,etc.. i could reuse.So let’s say after been using the AMD XP2500+ for more than two years,the average annual upgrade cost is less than an MacOSX or any propietary Linux upgrade.
‘ll buzz along quite happily driving my Mac
.
I’m glad you do :-)So do i with Linux.
Gabor wrote:
“I agree with Nick. The article is extremely biased. I could write a similar article to show that Dell is cheaper than Macs.”
Then please do so. I’d like to read it.
>And AMDs definitely are CISCs…
Define CISC and RISC.
Modern X86/X64s translates variable length (CISC) instructions into fixed length instructions (RISC) before execution.
>we will have Tiger a desktop OS that is light years ahead >of Windows
Would it run competitive Doom3 FPS relative to Wintel 2005 box?
>Now as far as CPU power for the buck goes ask the people >from Virginia Tech to tell you how efficient the G5 is
>(powered by Mac OS X Server).
Useless reference since they don’t run desktop application benchmarks.
>They did not used AMD or Intel (and of course Windows is >not capable to run on supercomputers).
Virginia Tech’s setup is a cluster based supercomputer setup i.e. not much different to zombie Wintel box infected with a worm that collectively attack a website.
The author of this article is, for the most part, heavily biased. Therefore, I take his comparisons with a grain of salt. That being said, I’m still saving up for an iBook for several reasons. The main one is something I simply can’t get from an x86 laptop: OS X. I am also looking forward to having a fully-configured, ready-to-go system from the moment I first power it on. This will be my first Mac since the 68k era, and while I am sure there will be a lot of relearning involved, I am looking forward to a hassle-free main PC. I’m still keeping one of my old systems around to run BeOS, at least until I get tired of the big CRT taking up my desk, but as for GNU/Linux I’ll probably just put Ubuntu-PPC on the iBook.
And yes, I can get a really cool IBM or Toshiba laptop for the same, or even less, than the iBook. I can even run GNU/Linux on them and configure them to look and feel almost exactly like a Mac. However, I’ve tried that before and it’s just not quite right. There’s a lot to be said for fully-integrated hardware and software.
And yes, I can get a really cool IBM or Toshiba laptop for the same, or even less, than the iBook. I can even run GNU/Linux on them and configure them to look and feel almost exactly like a Mac.
What kind of strange approach is this? Take their user interface and use it to maximum efficiency. How it looks does not matter. Equivalently it is childisch to complain that it is damn hard to configure Mac OS X looking like GNOME/Bluecurve.
Now as far as CPU power for the buck goes ask the people from Virginia Tech to tell you how efficient the G5 is (powered by Mac OS X Server). They are… let me see… at the TOP 10 in the supercomputer list ?
Maybe I should start with a question: Why am I constantly hearing these mindless HPC (high perfomance computing) comments from Mac users with Z-E-R-O HPC knowledge. What about introduce yourself to parallel computing before making a comment?
Virginia Tech built a cluster that has the main purpose to deliver Linpack (specific: parallel LU decompisition) performance. It had stability problem and needed to be rebuilt. It ran none of any scientific applications. Everything it did was give you a Linpack value.
They did not used AMD or Intel (and of course Windows is not capable to run on supercomputers).
Oh, and Windows is supposed to be the only OS running on Intel (IA-32, AMD64/EM64T, and IA-64)? SGI Altix and Cray XT3 are not supercomputers?
Since you missed it: There are companies out their, building non-clustering supercomputers, those with 256 CPU per node, compared to the maximum of 2 CPU that Apple can handle on one mainboard.
And from what I hear more universities will adopt G5 in their computing farms.
Did your source of rumours also give you a list?
So please drop the my AMD CPU is better than your G5….
If your maturity of HPC discussion reaches a point where you stop relaying Mac propagadistic rumours you are hearing, you will notice that Sandia has the Opteron based Cray Red Storm – it is not a cluster, and delivers real scientific computing performance.
Now unless you have a 10 TFLOPS machine at home, stop your childish PPC trolling. Your single or dual Mac architecture is never going to deliver 10 TFLOPS.
And maybe you should find someone telling you why a parallel computer is more than just the combination of CPU power, or what roles interconnection and memory architecture plays.
I’m pretty sure that Longhorn is not going to need a 3GHz processor. But I do find it interesting that XP needs about the same specs that OS X 10.3 does (if you consider a 400 PII similar to a 233 G3).
I would predict this for Longhorn:
750 PIII
256MB RAM, 384 MUCH BETTER.
64MB Gfx card if you want a compositor
Not too hefty, but that’s my prediction; based purely on my own gut feelings
.
It’s really not fair to compare pre-alpha code to release code. I’d hope Microsoft manages to speed things up a lot.
Now if you wanna talk about Windows resource wasting, talk about the half GB of disk space that I have dedicated to back-ward downgrades?! WTH, I want that space for something useful!
…and in other news —
A Porshe 911 Turbo is more expensive than a Kia Spectra….
According to the survey –
porshe 911 is faster, better looking, elegantly stylish, bug free, solid piece of equipment giving the user pure bliss.
kia spectra is a cheaper piece of equipment that simply does the job although in a non-satisfactory way…
Gabor wrote:
“I agree with Nick. The article is extremely biased. I could write a similar article to show that Dell is cheaper than Macs.”
Anonymous Coward wrote:
“Then please do so. I’d like to read it.”
—————————————————-
If you read through the first 100 comments, you’ll find enough evidence that I will not need to write an article. I thought some more about it and changed my mind anyway. I don’t have a motivation to convince you people. I have apple stock. When you buy their product my stock goes up and I win anyway.
Since I’m in the market for a computer I decided to do, what I would call a requirements based comparison. This is actually the comparison a true customer ought to do. Decide what you need then see where you can get it at the least cost.
So I went to dell.com and customized a computer that fits my requirements. Then I went over to apple.com and tried to configure an equivalent computer. It seems to me that the Apple was much more expensive than the Dell.
Here are my specs for the Dell:
Dimension 3000. 2.8 GHz P4,
XP Home ed.
256MB RAM
Dell Kybd &Mouse
17 inch LCD Flatscreen Monitor
Integrated Video Card
160GB Hard Drive
3.5 Inch Floppy Drive
Integrated 10/100 ethernet
IEEE1394 Adapter
USB WLAN 802.11 B/G adapter
Netgear Wireless Router 802.11 b/g
Total Cost: $1093 ($993 after discount. $764 with 17inch crt monitor).
I really could not find anything comparable in the Apple store at a price in the same ball park. I began with the Apple mini but that was soon over $800 at 1.4Ghz processor, 80MB hard drive and without the Wireless Router plus it seems the mini does not come with a monitor. The nearest I got was a customized iMac G5 with the following configuration:
• 256MB DDR400 SDRAM – 1 DIMM
• 160GB Serial ATA drive
• AirPort Extreme Card
• None – Bluetooth Module
• Keyboard and Mouse + Mac OS X – U.S. English
• 17-inch widescreen LCD
• 1.6GHz PowerPC G5
• Combo Drive (DVD-ROM/CD-RW)
• NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Ultra w/64MB video memory
Subtotal $1,478.00
Clearly, to me much more expensive than the Dell. In fact if I drop the flat screen monitor with the Dell (which I don’t actually have to have. Also I did not find any option to switch monitors with the Apple) it comes in at $764 Almost half as much as the Apple. Note that the Apple does not include a wireless router. Which I would still have to buy. Also come to that, I’d have to get at least a 2 button scroll mouse. As far as room for compromise goes, the Apple also comes up short. If I were to pay more I’s rather spend the extra on more memory a faster processor, an extra hard drive and more warranty. The price differential here gives me plenty of room for that with the Dell.
Finally the WinXP professional choice. Of all the people I know who recently bought a PC for purely home use not one picked XP professional. In fact the professional tag scared them away. Its not a large sample but I think the comparison done by the author is skewed in favor of Apple by the choice of XP professional.
emk
OK, so, do it yourself the easy way really fast. Go check out the $299 system and then get the options you’d actually want added to it. When I was done, it was about $1150, whereas to get the mac mini to the same “standard” for myself it only ran about $881. The laptop is the same type of thing. When I got all the options I wanted on the Dell it went up to $1,986 from 886, and the apple with the same options (same as in *same* not same as in *equal to some extent) was only $1623.
The apple stuff was quite a bit cheaper once you get a “real” system, even though it was more expensive at basic. But the “basic” gives you more, and the upgrades are about the same price.
Something else you’ll notice with the Dell system. When you click “update subtotal” it moves the page down so you can still see “continue” but can’t see the price. Sneaky little bastards, aren’t they?