Both Apple and Microsoft seem to know what’s needed for the next step in desktop computing.
Tiger’s Out This Week. No Bull
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Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
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I hope rumours of improving the iMac G5 are true. For one, a better display adapter (Radeon 9600 or GF 5600) is needed.
I’m in the market for a Mac and the improvements in Tiger have convinced me to ditch my PC hardware.
from the article
“To be fair, Microsoft has a heavier load when it comes to major upgrades. Its system runs on all kinds of different hardware and has to support many legacy apps”
What? So Apple doesn’t need to support legacy apps?
1% of geekdom goes “hooray”
…While the other 99% either drools, whines or pouts?
bb_matt, I’d hate to see how you complain about BeOS articles posted.
are not even worth the hoopla at all…pathetic. i was gonna get a decked out dual mac but no…id rather wait
1%? Yes, but it’s a very, very happy and content 1%. Don’t worry in another year actually longer (when Longhornz comes out) you’ll understand what we are so happy about.
1%?
Apple’s *market share* (not install base) but *MARKET SHARE* is 3.9%. But market share is a figure that only deals with quarterly sales in relation to the competition and is absolutly not indicitative of the total number of mac users in relation to the total number of other computer users. (Install base.) The Mac’s *install base* (the context which you were referring to it) is approximately 8.5%.
“Even the most die hard Apple supporter can’t deny that you don’t get much hardware for your buck from Apple these days. Even the $2499 Powermac is still equiped with an fx5200 standard.”
But Apple gear is less expensive than a Windows PC equipped with the same (or as close as possible) hardware and software and equivilent operating system. (Sure, with a PC you can buy less and get less, but that does not mean that only shows a PC advantage in configurability.)
Stop spreading FUD.
Furthermore, he suggests that some of Apple’s ideas (like the Dashboard mini-programs) were inspired by early demos of Longhorn.
mmmmmmh…. no! Maybe more inspired by Konfabulator!
Despite all the vile here, I for one can’t wait.
And for those of who say it is inconsequential, ask yourself why you bother to take the time to post.
And THAT is why Apple is so amazing. Despite a small customer base, it leads the industry in innovation and mind share. Even the detractors have to come out and bash them because they are so centric to the industry.
Finally, you PC guys should be supporting Apple, even if you don’t buy any gear. Because, one thing I think we can all agree on is Microsoft “innovates” if and only if there is serious competitive threat. It is their nature.
IE was dead until Firefox.
Real Search was dead–pushed out until 2009 according to Gates–until Jobs showed Spotlight.
And this comment is not a dig at Microsoft. It’s the nature of any monopoly or company with a locked-in installed base. Upgrades become more about revenue cycles than innovation for innovation’s sake.
But Apple, Open Source, et al., give Windows fans more than they will ever appreciate.
I read an interview with the top honcho at Adobe who said that although MACs are less than 5% of the computers out there, about 30% of their graphics sales are to MAC owners and professionals. So, as usual, there is more than meets the eye.
“Apple’s *market share* (not install base) but *MARKET SHARE* is 3.9%. But market share is a figure that only deals with quarterly sales in relation to the competition and is absolutly not indicitative of the total number of mac users in relation to the total number of other computer users. (Install base.) The Mac’s *install base* (the context which you were referring to it) is approximately 8.5%.”
Apples share in the USA approaches 4%, worldwide it is 2%. Show some data links for that wild 8.5% installed base figure.
“Of course you’re bored; you’re gonna have to keep using the same old OS.
”
Where is Apples Tablet PC OS? Or Media Center OS? MS has been cranking out new versions of those for 3 years, yet no one writes silly fan boy marketing articles for MS stating maybe next year Apple will duplicate MS innovations.
As for this $129 update that adds a new fangled search feature, how about a free download of MSN Desktop Search. I’ll use my $129 to buy an MP3 player instead. If you want to see the same old OS, add up all of the following updates to XP and see how the same it is versus 2001 http://www.pcnmac.com/updates.htm
In case you haven’t noticed far more than 1% of osnews readers are in fact Mac users (judging from the comments) AND this website is called OSnews- not windows news or PaulThurrot.com or whatever- the article is relevant. Now how about those reactOS articles…
Please let me know when either of these poorly implemented, problem prone, glued on to XP “solutions” actually work. And yes, I have used them both. Microsoft might actually want to consider designing operating systems for the task at hand instead of just throwing on some gadgets over an already bloated OS.
a significant share of those “99%” people “that matters” (particularly those who trol^H^H^H^H read /. and OSNews) soiled their pants when they saw the possibility of running Panther or Tiger on their own dear PCs by the means of PearPC…
I can only laugh.
Get a life, will you? See the Tiger demos. Watch the presentation when it gets online. Pay a visit to the nearest Apple Store sometime.
These discussions ALWAYS remind me of this Aesop fable I read when I was a little kid:
“A famished fox saw some clusters of ripe black grapes hanging from a trellised vine. She resorted to all her tricks to get at them, but wearied herself in vain, for she could not reach them. At last she turned away, hiding her disappointment and saying:
‘The Grapes are sour, and not ripe as I thought.'”
Way for MS to make an OS that`s cool and `just works` (their new slogan) would be upon WinCe, or WinXP embedded. In fact, there`s even some indication of this kind of development actually happening.. -ak
Hasn’t apple been using that slogan for years?
What the “figures” don’t say is that there are quite a few Macs around being used and reused, like the one I’m using right now. It’s probably listed as being bought for one person, but now I’m using it, and since the OS is on a Corporate license, I’m not counted as a another user by any “surveys”.
Though its a few years old, and a bit grungy looking for exterior wear (G4-800 Powerbook), as soon as I open it up and my Windows friends see the screen, the Ooooohhhs & Aaaahhhs start. I’m an OS/2, BeOS, Linux, & OSX user, and for now, OSX is the top of the heap (don’t even suggest running Windows to me…I had enough of it when I did tech support to last me a lifetime.)
“Please let me know when either of these poorly implemented, problem prone, glued on to XP “solutions” actually work. And yes, I have used them both. Microsoft might actually want to consider designing operating systems for the task at hand instead of just throwing on some gadgets over an already bloated OS.”
Nothing beats MCE for what it is or does, nothing is as feature rich, nothing is as good and that is why MCE comes out on top in reviews. Your opinion doesn’t count for a lot when dozens and dozens of reviewers have compared MCE hands on against similar products and find it the best. Funny, no Macs in those reviews because Apple has nothing like it.
Well, I can refute one of your points. Apple certainly designed an excellent “Tablet PC” OS. Probably the best I’ve ever used. I’m, of course, referring to Newton OS. I certainly would call the Newton more of a tablet than a PDA, what with its PCMCIA card slots and large form-factor (which was, in fact, ideal for hwr). NOS was better than Windows CE (aka PocketPC aka Windows for Mobile Devices, etc) and XPTE (XP Tablet Edition) combined. In my humble, meaningless opinion, of course.
You seem to think I believe there’s something better on the market. And that its apples. Nope. Though my XBMC does a damn fine job at almost everything MCE does, and my Tivo does TV far better. And its quiet as a mouse. Most people I know who bought media center computers don’t even understand how to use them. Well done.
Just so we’re clear, I don’t think anyone is really doing a good job at Media Center style PCs. If one wanted to say anything about apple and media centers its that they should be congratulated for not entering the market prematurely and bringing out yet another not-ready-for-primetime (like WMCE) OS to trick people into thinking they’re getting something that actually works as advertised.
I can’t believe there is so much mac hatred out there. We must have something that drives envy into their hearts and minds…. what could it be?
hehe poor suckers
“Just so we’re clear, I don’t think anyone is really doing a good job at Media Center style PCs. If one wanted to say anything about apple and media centers its that they should be congratulated for not entering the market prematurely and bringing out yet another not-ready-for-primetime (like WMCE) OS to trick people into thinking they’re getting something that actually works as advertised.”
Works as advertised for me and all of the people I know that I have recommended them to. When you can get a PC like the following for $749 (less than an eMac), its a clear winner:
http://pcversusmac.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=290
$749 media center 2005 gateway 812GM pc
17″ flat screen crt vx750 (1280×1024 max res)
canon inkjet ip1500
athlon 64 3200+
512mb pc3200 ddr ram
160gb western digital sata 7200rpm hd
AVerMedia M-150 TV Tuner Card and remote
16x nec ND-3500A/EML dual layer and dual format dvd burner
8 in 1 card reader
128mb nvidia fx5200 video card w/ tv out and dvi
nforce 5.1 sound
7 usb 2 ports
2 firewire ports
56k modem
10/100 nic
1 parallel port
1 serial port
2 ps/2 ports
3 pci slots (1 open)
premium stereo speakers
keyboard and mouse
ms works
ms windows xp media center 2005 edition
1 yr warranty
Tivos are great products, but they aren’t full fledged computers that do all of the things that a standard PC can do.
Your opinion doesn’t count for a lot when dozens and dozens of reviewers have compared MCE hands on against similar products and find it the best. Funny, no Macs in those reviews because Apple has nothing like it.
The funny thing about that thing is that there is probably a good reason why Apple isn’t selling a MCE edition Mac. Apple is a marketing company. They want to make a profit, and when I see how many people I know have Windows MCE installed I sincerely doubt that MS is actually doing that over MCE.
Moreover, Apple’s MCE should become the TiVo killer and TiVo has snuck in the iPod spot of personal video players and would be a damn hard thing to kill for any company.
“They hate getting told that they’ve been suckered into a bullshit yearly PC upgrade cycle instead of buying Apple hardware that lasts for years and years like the rest of us do.”
Don’t you mean Mac users “suckered” into a $129 OS update every year (5 of them now in 49 months, 4 x $128 and 1 x $29). Don’t forget to add an annual .Mac subscription for $99 and the now $79 iLife to make up for all the stuff stripped from the base OS (that’s right, Tiger evidently doesn’t even include iPhoto or iMovie anymore).
“But Mac users use their computers much longer than PC users”
Pure myth with no hard data to back up the claim. The truth is that the opposite is true, and thats why MS had such a hard time getting millions to migrate off NT 4 and kept extending support for it. But don’t pay attention to real world usage results, just repeat something you have heard over and over and you will soon believe it.
You’ve apparently never had to work…anywhere that uses windows. From where I sit the upgrade of os, office and hardware never seems to end. Nor do our constant payouts to MS. There’s a reason they make billions of dollars every year, and it isn’t because people aren’t upgrading. Hint: Its because they are.
Don’t you mean Mac users “suckered” into a $129 OS update every year (5 of them now in 49 months, 4 x $128 and 1 x $29). Don’t forget to add an annual .Mac subscription for $99 and the now $79 iLife to make up for all the stuff stripped from the base OS (that’s right, Tiger evidently doesn’t even include iPhoto or iMovie anymore).
Interesting. When I went out and bought my dad XP for his home mahcine Microsoft didn’t throw in Powerpoint or Pagemaker and he actually had to pay for his network service as well. Can you tell me why this statement doesn’t make you look like a irrelevant whiner?
Let’s assume MacOS X 10.3.9 (Panther) is the Mac equivilent of Windows XP Home Edition (I’m assuming Pro would be equal to MacOS X Server).
My friend has a iMac 333MHz (G3 processor) with 256MB of RAM installed and built-in ATI Rage Pro (6Mb), an a 6Gb HD. He’s running MacOS X 10.3.9 on it just fine. Noticably better than Jaguar, before it.
Now, try running Windows XP Home on a 333MHz Pentium II (or the closest Pentium speed equivilent to a G3) with 256Mb of RAM, an ATI Rage Pro (6Mb), and 6Gb HD.
Let’s see just how usable each system is and then tell me that, while you pay $129 for new versions of MacOS X on an almost yearly basis, you can’t keep your hardware longer.
I *suppose* you could keep the same PC the same amount of time, but who would? It’s always a “keeping up with the Jones” mentality in the PC camp. Anyone who keeps (or even HAS) a 333MHz PC nowadays, is so “off the map”, they’re usually laughed right out of the room!
Mac users are a totally different breed than PC users. Mac users are RESPECTED by other Mac users. It means something different to be a Mac user that no Wintel zealot will ever understand.
It’s not JUST about the hardware. The OS and hardware INTEGRATION is where it’s at. Always has been. Always will be.
A Mac is good as long as you can do everything you need with the version of MacOS you have. A PC is good only as long as everyone else doesn’t own something faster than you do.
I got out of the PC rat race a couple years ago. I’m NOT going back unless Apple dies or stops making Macs. I’d sooner own an AmigaOne and AmigaOS 4 before going back to a PC… unless HaikuOS (“BeOS”) is available by then. 🙂
Luposian (proud max’d out G4 (Digital Audio) owner)
“Interesting. When I went out and bought my dad XP for his home mahcine Microsoft didn’t throw in Powerpoint or Pagemaker and he actually had to pay for his network service as well. Can you tell me why this statement doesn’t make you look like a irrelevant whiner?”
Because since XP shipped, MS hasn’t released 5 different versions that have over time dropped tools like iTools and the iLife suite of apps to only then charge for them, in the case of iTools it became an annual $99 fee and in the case of iLife it became first a $49 add on then a $79 add on.
On the other hand MS has added Hotmail storage up to 250MB free, they have added MSN Spaces free, MSN Groups were not dropped, and they have added tons of new apps for free (MSN Desktop Search, Photostory 3, Lookout, Services for Unix 3.5, Expression, etc.) They didn’t throw in Powerpoint, but if you bought that you got a major add on, Producer 2003 for free.
Of course Microsoft is adding all of these things at a loss since they make all of their money on forced OS and Office upgrades. Its easy to make everything “free” when your userbase (read large enterprises) is paying through the nose for forced upgrades and support due to 100% OS lock-in.
If you own an apple computer, you get iLife. If you buy a windows pc, you get what, Windows Moviemaker? Windows Media Player?
Great, go buy Windows MCE. Oh yeah, you have to either buy a whole new computer, or purchase it through shady retailers who sell OEM cds.
“Because since XP shipped, MS hasn’t released 5 different versions that have over time dropped tools like iTools and the iLife suite of apps to only then charge for them, in the case of iTools it became an annual $99 fee and in the case of iLife it became first a $49 add on then a $79 add on. ”
Hmm, let me see… Checking the Tiger install I have (MacMall is gonna pay for that one), I seem to still have iPhoto and iMovie. No one is forced to buy an ipgrade to OSX but lets look at those releases.
10.2 was faster than 10.1 and included over 100 new features.
10.3 ws faster than 10.2 and included about 150 new features.
10.4 is faster than 10.3 and includes 200 new features.
In that time MS released XPSP2 which inlcuded a better firewall and the switching on of some features that it already had and closed some ports. In many cases applications were broken Now MS has declared that you MUST upgrade to SP2 to recieve further updates.
Somehow it just doesn’t seem that Windows users come out on top in this argument.
I know my Dual Athlon Boxx is just gathering dust at this point.
“Oh yeah, you have to either buy a whole new computer, or purchase it through shady retailers who sell OEM cds.”
OEM licenses to Windows do not have to ship on new PCs only. Read the license sometime, they can ship with a non peripheral part, such as a mouse for $1.
Spread that FUD and the “Oh my God, all those poor people that are slaves to MS have no choice whatsoever in what OS they use. They are in the dreaded lock in!” FUD amongst people that are gullible. Tiger won’t help Apple in the business world, but if there is such a draconian lock in, I wonder how it is that Linux usage is growing so much? Linux grows but the Mac OS shrinks.
Interesting how the author quotes Allchin as saying, “a peripheral to the iPod.”, what a very bitter man Microsoft has at there company, but why aren’t I surprised? the whole Microsoft paradym is based on reacting to rather than setting the standard.
Windows NT was a reaction TO their failed UNIX project and the need to have something out there – not because they think they had a better idea – good lord no, its because someone else might possibly take marketshare they seee as rightfully theirs.
As one CEO (the name escapes me) said, “look after the products and the profits will look after themselves” – Microsoft seems to do the reverse, and look at what happens to the quality of their products. Had NT NOT been a reaction to UNIX, then NT would have most likely been like a MacOS X – taking the *GOOD* aspects of UNIX, and smoothing out the rough edges which make UNIX a royal pain in the ass.
As for his snilie and snarlie comments regarding Tigers technology and how it is “so much harder for Microsoft” – Apple did it correct, Microsoft has done it wrong. On one hand you have Apple, which utilises opensource and closed source development, take the good bits from the opensource world like XML/XSL parsers, embedded SQL servers and so forth, glue it with some proprietary APIs, document it, and voila, you end up with a operating system with more features than you can shake a stick at.
That coupled with the “frequent, incremental improvements” model has allowed Apple to stay focused. Create a small set of features then work on expanding it in the next release. Yes, Apple has released MORE versions than Microsoft has, yet, on the other hand, Apple sells their operating system at a lower cost than Microsoft.
Microsoft could have done the same thing, if they so wished. Windows XP could have expanded to first include (hypothetically), Indigo, .NET Framework and Avlon. It could then be sold for NZ$140, then 18 months later, release another version for the same price that includes the filesystem/database designed, coupled with WinFX, thus giving developers 18 months to test their code against WinFX as being developed (so after 18 months, the new operating system will have new applications instantly available as it ships).
“My friend has a iMac 333MHz (G3 processor) with 256MB of RAM installed and built-in ATI Rage Pro (6Mb), an a 6Gb HD. He’s running MacOS X 10.3.9 on it just fine. Noticably better than Jaguar, before it.
Now, try running Windows XP Home on a 333MHz Pentium II (or the closest Pentium speed equivilent to a G3) with 256Mb of RAM, an ATI Rage Pro (6Mb), and 6Gb HD. ”
Only problem its not comparing Mhz vs. Mhz. That iMac came out mid 1999 at $1,199 and it had
CPU: 333 MHz PPC 750
bus: 66 MHz
RAM: 32 MB
VRAM: 6 MB SGRAM
monitor: 15″
L2 cache: 512 KB 133 MHz (5:2) backside cache
hard drive: 6 GB EIDE drive
CD-ROM: 24x maximum throughput
56 kbps modem
(from lowendmac.com)
but in the same time frame, for the same money you could get a PC that had (I’m looking at an ad in old PC World):
pentium 3 550mhz
100 Mhz bus
128MB ram
20GB hard drive
8x dvd rom drive
savage4 pro 16mb agp 2x agp video
ess solo sound
56k modem
jbl pro speakers
office 2000 small business edition
17″ crt
and that machine will run XP better than the above iMac will run X. The iMac doesn’t even meet minimum specs for OS X (you would need to upgrade the memory), and Tiger isn’t even supported at all on the machine.
Where is Apples Tablet PC OS? Or Media Center OS? MS has been cranking out new versions of those for 3 years, yet no one writes silly fan boy marketing articles for MS stating maybe next year Apple will duplicate MS innovations.
Darling, I have been to Australia, Europe etc. and now I am back in New Zealand; you’d be hard pressed to find *ANYONE* actually using a Tablet PC or Media Centre PC. The two products are nothing more than hyperducts – products based on hype, surrounded by bullsh*t and promoted by fanboys such as yourself.
The only people I see using Media Centre PCs are not Joe and Jane average – they’re quite content with the set top boxes they can buy from good old Noel Leemings, with a DVD Player/Record, along with a bonus 160gig hard disk. Why do they need a “media PC” that sounds like jet taking off when they can purchase one of thoset set top boxes for little under $500 and is childs play to setup.
“Apple sells their operating system at a lower cost than Microsoft.”
Tiger is $129
XP Home is $69 http://www.compuplus.com/insidepageNoLinks.php?refer=froogle&id=861
XP Pro is $110 http://www.pricegrabber.com/user_sales_getprod.php?masterid=477480&…
XP Media Center Editon 2005 is $117 http://store.yahoo.com/directron/xpmedia.html
Correct me if I am wrong but aren’t $69, $110, and $117 all less than $129?
“Darling, I have been to Australia, Europe etc. and now I am back in New Zealand; you’d be hard pressed to find *ANYONE* actually using a Tablet PC or Media Centre PC. The two products are nothing more than hyperducts – products based on hype, surrounded by bullsh*t and promoted by fanboys such as yourself.”
MCE has to this point primarily been marketed in North America so no wonder you haven’t seen many of them. Since the last quarter of 2004 (MCE 2005 came out in October 2004), 1 million MCE PCs were sold. Average that out over a year and you equal the sales figures for all Macs combined. MCE is moving out in big numbers now that MCE 2005 is out and it is also available OEM. That means anyone can build one or there are now thousands of vendors building them for clients, not just half a dozen key MS partners that had sole access to it for its first two years of existance.
Nice big news story going into detail about them just today: http://news.com.com/With+a+PCs+power%2C+thats+entertainment/210…
I own a MCE box, I have 4 friends that have bought one in the last 9 months, and I have a 5th friend that started building one just yesterday. That right there is more than all the people I personally know that own Macs.
“Apple sells their operating system at a lower cost than Microsoft.”
[snipped links]
Correct me if I am wrong but aren’t $69, $110, and $117 all less than $129?
They’re OEM NOT retail versions. Want to compare MacOS X retail, then do like with like; according to Ascent (which is a fairly cheap online retailer in NZ), the cost of a FULL version of Windows XP Professional SP2 is (drum roll please) $680.12 including GST. As for Home, its around $100 cheaper.
Regarding Media Centre – how many consumers do you know who buy all the hardware components and build the system themselves.
Also, OEM software CANNOT BE TRANSFERRED. Once you have installed them YOU CANNOT TRANSFER THEM. Yes, I have experienced this little ‘perk’ of OEM software from Microsoft. Once you’ve activated Windows XP OEM, it is glued to the machine – and no, Microsoft will not allow you to transfer or reactivate on another computer.
Spread that FUD and the “Oh my God, all those poor people that are slaves to MS have no choice whatsoever in what OS they use. They are in the dreaded lock in!” FUD amongst people that are gullible. Tiger won’t help Apple in the business world, but if there is such a draconian lock in, I wonder how it is that Linux usage is growing so much? Linux grows but the Mac OS shrinks.
Hello? I’m talking from experience, pure and simple. Perhaps you haven’t heard, but Linux growth is in the server market, not desktops. Ask anyone, and I mean ANYONE, how close their enterprise is to standardizing on a Linux desktop that doesn’t run Office, and see how many replies you get.
Fortunately, apple is making some strides outside of the business sector- grid computing, scientific computing and tv and film production are all happily moving to apple products because they are seeing a much greater return for their investment.
And by the way chanman, any imac with firewire is supported by OSX, including Tiger. My wife has a Ruby Imac DV with a 433mhz G3 in it and panther has been purring along with no issues whatsoever. Slower than a g5? You bet. But absolutely not suffering. On the other hand, my Athlon is starting to seriously chug under the weight of XPSP2.
“Darling, I have been to Australia, Europe etc. and now I am back in New Zealand; you’d be hard pressed to find *ANYONE* actually using a Tablet PC or Media Centre PC. The two products are nothing more than hyperducts – products based on hype, surrounded by bullsh*t and promoted by fanboys such as yourself.”
MCE has to this point primarily been marketed in North America so no wonder you haven’t seen many of them. Since the last quarter of 2004 (MCE 2005 came out in October 2004), 1 million MCE PCs were sold. Average that out over a year and you equal the sales figures for all Macs combined. MCE is moving out in big numbers now that MCE 2005 is out and it is also available OEM. That means anyone can build one or there are now thousands of vendors building them for clients, not just half a dozen key MS partners that had sole access to it for its first two years of existance.
There is a world beyond the shores of the US. There are 6.8billion consumers who are saying, “screw the MCE hype”. You can’t ignore 6.8billion people, no matter what the sales figures in the US say.
The MCE market is nothing more than hype driven by PC companies who are losing money on their PCs, so they’re looking at new, and more interesting ways of extracting money from their end users – promote a product that sounds like a jet engine and done nothing more than what a stanard $500 set top box from Noel Leemings would do.
Nice big news story going into detail about them just today: http://news.com.com/With+a+PCs+power%2C+thats+entertainment/210…..
I own a MCE box, I have 4 friends that have bought one in the last 9 months, and I have a 5th friend that started building one just yesterday. That right there is more than all the people I personally know that own Macs.
Surround oneself with geeks, nerds and social recluses doesn’t make it the barometre as to whether a product is successful. I can assure you, for Joe Average on $40,000 – the least of his worries getting one of these new fandangled MCE devices.
Again, if he wanted to have the ability to record to a hard disk or DVD, he can easily run down to the shops and purchase a DVD-Writer/HardDisk combo for a small price.
“If you own an apple computer, you get iLife. If you buy a windows pc, you get what, Windows Moviemaker? Windows Media Player?”
No, not if you own an apple computer, do you get iLife. If you BUY a new Mac you get the latest iLife. After that its now $79 per upgrade.
Yes on a Windows PC you get the above when you buy a new rig. But you also get apps like Roxio EZ CD/DVD Creator or Nero Suite, MS Works or MS Office or Corel Office, MS Picture it!, Encarta, Sonic MyDVD, etc. etc.
PCs come with bundles of software just like Macs, they just aren’t made by the same company. One of the interesting things there is you can choose the PC to buy based not only off of hardware specs, but also off of the software bundle. The user can choose whatever they want.
I have used MacOS X all the way back to the NeXTstep days in late 80’s. Its a very nice system and Apple has some very smart people working for them from NeXT. Microsoft also has some smart people working for them and has come up with some practicle solutions on there own. But Microsofts product is nothing like Apple’s so I am not sure why you guys who are slamming one or the other (there not even enthusiastically marketed to the same people) . I can remember 20+ years ago, having friends who had Apple II’s and other friends with TRS-80’s and other friends who had Atari systems. I don’t recall all this turf war sort of talk. Why cant you just be excited about innovations in the computer field wherever it comes from? Whats all this talk as if your more interested in being on “the winning team” or most popular. Have you folks interest in computers always been limited to this? There seems to be way too much posing these days.
-Adam
If they really wanna upstage Microsoft, they should make OSX
available for x86, and expecially amd64.
I think it would be huge if Apple decided to only release support for AMD processors. They could steal a segment of users away from both Intel and Microsoft.
Mac OS 10.3 cost $59 OEM and I’m sure once 10.4 has been released the same effect will occur. Sort of ironic that you did not look at your own pricing sources and instead decided to compare Windows OEM against Mac OS X retail. Oh look a house hold may purchase FIVE licenses of 10.3 for $86. That’s roughly $17.2 per computer for five computers in the same family house hold. So Mac OS X is far cheaper than XP for a family household.
Anyway, no one is forcing Mac users to upgrade. Infact I know a few people still on 10.2 and are content with it. I also know a few windows users still using Windows 2000, is Microsoft forcing them to upgrade? No. Is Apple forcing its users to upgrade? No. A user only upgrades their OS when they choose to do so or believe it is time to do so
I believe this all stems from that Apple has in fact released quite a few large updates to their OS over the past few years and Microsoft as not. If the tables were turned, I doubt you’d be calling Microsoft’s updates a subscription, but instead calling it innovation. Sadly, Microsoft is taking a long time to produce an major update
http://www.pricegrabber.com/search_attrib.php/page_id=180/form_keyw…
“Fortunately, apple is making some strides outside of the business sector- grid computing, scientific computing and tv and film production are all happily moving to apple products because they are seeing a much greater return for their investment.”
Actually that is far from accurate. Mac sales went up last quarter, but guess which segment went down? Powermacs sold only 140,000 units. The Powermacs have gone down in sales every quarter but one since the release of the G5.
“And by the way chanman, any imac with firewire is supported by OSX, including Tiger. My wife has a Ruby Imac DV with a 433mhz G3 in it and panther has been purring along with no issues whatsoever. Slower than a g5? You bet. But absolutely not suffering. On the other hand, my Athlon is starting to seriously chug under the weight of XPSP2.”
Any iMac with firewire is supported by Tiger if it has sufficient memory. The above iMac 333 doesn’t have firewire. The minimum ram is now 256MB, not the 32MB that iMac shipped with.
Mac OS 10.3 cost $59 OEM and I’m sure once 10.4 has been released the same effect will occur. Sort of ironic that you did not look at your own pricing sources and instead decided to compare Windows OEM against Mac OS X retail. Oh look a house hold may purchase FIVE licenses of 10.3 for $86. That’s roughly $17.2 per computer for five computers in the same family house hold. So Mac OS X is far cheaper than XP for a family household.
Hello? who here can get the OEM copy of Mac OS X? I sure as hell can’t. Heck, I’d love to be only paying NZ$100 for a copy of MacOS X – infact, I would be an estatic end user. The fact remains, it isn’t widely available.
We’re talking about from an end users point of view; the ability to go INTO a regular department store and purchase it – aka, off the shelf prices. That is how regular end users purchase their software. The fact remains, you can’t do it for either MacOS X OEM or Windows XP OEM.
Think boxes on the shelves people – thats how most software is purchased (Microsofts sales figures are slanted due to the fact that most of their revenue is derived from US sales).
“Mac OS 10.3 cost $59 OEM and I’m sure once 10.4 has been released the same effect will occur. Sort of ironic that you did not look at your own pricing sources and instead decided to compare Windows OEM against Mac OS X retail. Oh look a house hold may purchase FIVE licenses of 10.3 for $86. That’s roughly $17.2 per computer for five computers in the same family house hold. So Mac OS X is far cheaper than XP for a family household.”
Only problem with that is buying 10.3 now is like buying Windows 2000 for a PC. Its no longer the current offering. That and that family pack you listed above is actually a single user license that showed up wrong in the price grab. But yes, X does have OEM deals very rarely. Can you show 10.4 Tiger for less than $69 via an OEM deal now?
Right, because you can run XP on anything less than 256mb so well.
I’m sorry, but what makes you think that Powermacs somehow represent the entirety of use in any of those sectors? Most scientists (university researchers for the most part) I know have an iMac of some kind. Grids don’t generally use workstations.
I have no response to the tv/film, other than its entirely likely that they’re simply buying up Apple software and using it on devices they may already have.
“Think boxes on the shelves people – thats how most software is purchased (Microsofts sales figures are slanted due to the fact that most of their revenue is derived from US sales).”
Nope, the majority of X and XP are sold on new machines. Anyway, I have shops in my town that sell OEM copies of XP, but not quite as cheap as I can order them online. Check out the internet sometime, its a great tool for finding the best prices. Do you not have shipping services to your country, state, province, town, village, hamlet?
I love you keep avoiding the point. Well played.
“Grids don’t generally use workstations.”
Right, Xserves and Sans also count in the sales figures for the Powermacs.
“Right, because you can run XP on anything less than 256mb so well.”
XP runs great on 256MB ram. I have a whole office of machines running XP on exactly three year old rigs with 256MB ram, athlon 2100s, and geforce 4 64mb vid cards. They run super and multitask with all needed apps without any issue. But you are right, 256MB is what I would recommend as minimum for acceptable performance, but 128MB is an accepted amount and will run XP, but with slower performance.
The fact remains that XP runs on the above PC that cost the same as that iMac but has much better specs, and the iMac cannot run OS X at all with its default ram. It is unsupported for any version of OS X that requires a firewire port as well.
“Think boxes on the shelves people – thats how most software is purchased (Microsofts sales figures are slanted due to the fact that most of their revenue is derived from US sales).”
Nope, the majority of X and XP are sold on new machines. Anyway, I have shops in my town that sell OEM copies of XP, but not quite as cheap as I can order them online. Check out the internet sometime, its a great tool for finding the best prices. Do you not have shipping services to your country, state, province, town, village, hamlet?
Interesting how you keep changing the tune from “boxs bought in shops” to “installed on the computer” – so whats the argument now? are we going to talk about operating systems pre-loaded on the machine or are we going to talk about software bought from the local store? I can talk about either one – how about you making up your mind.
Oh, and they’re not departments stores that you purchase the OEM version from, thats the local computer store – again, it is not the bastion of the local consumer – local consumer goes to Farmers/Noel Leeming/Dick Smiths/Harvey Norman/Myer or Harris Technology.
If they want a Mac and Mac related software, they can either go to David Jones (or Magnummac or Apple Centre if they want a computer store – but then again, we’re getting off topic).
You’ll have to excuse ChanMan (who seems to have popped up around the same time noted thread-hijacker & MS apologist “drsmithy” stopped posting – under the same IP address, nonetheless). To him, MS can do no wrong; Apple, nothing right. Anytime there’s an article that mentioned something positive about Apple or Linux – he’s there to rain on the parade. Don’t even bother arguing with him, he’ll just misguidedly pick apart the weaker arguments and ignore the stronger ones.
the above pc may have better specs, but I’m willing to bet the iMac performs better. 128MB may be “accepted” according to microsoft, but its not really legitimate, especially once you factor in the inevitable glut of spyware the PC user didnt’ realize they were installing through IE.
Or am I the only person who visits family and friends who tell them their “Computer is really slow, I keep getting all these pop-ups even when I close explorer”
This is amazing. For all these Windows biggots/Microsoft apologists, you are sure making a *LOT* of noise over Apple’s new product. That speaks volumes in itself doesn’t it. Let’s all stop and ponder what your reaction really means. What a sad lot you are. I’m a registered owner of both XP and OS X and I prefer OS X by a substantial mark.
All this talk of price. I can only assume that you fools don’t know what ‘Economies of Scale’ means. Perhaps you aren’t old enough to know, but try looking it up. Jesus! Fortunately, I’m not as strapped for cash as you guys anyway.
And what the hell is it with the ‘FUD’ acronym (yes, I know it stands for Fear Uncertainty Doubt thanks) that seems to appear in every second post these days? Give the worn out term a rest please.
Oh please MS fans, keep those concerned posts of yours rolling… and all this talk of Media Center. Tried it, didn’t like it. Crap. Get your lube out because Bill’s knockin’ boys.
I can’t believe the amount of zealotry that’s going on here.
I’d like to be the first to say that Windows, OSX, Linux, *BSD, Sun, BeOS, whatever; each have it’s place. It just seems like the guys with the hardware are like “Oh cool” and the ones without are like “Who cares?”. Makes sense to me in that fashion, but also, I’d like to point out that there are plenty of Longhorn articles here on OSNews.
Here at home, I’m running 2 dualboot Linux/XP machines, and an iBook. I’m soon going to order a Mac Mini as well, because I PREFER OSX to Windows, just like some prefer Gnome to KDE or viceversa.
Another point that’s shoved on here repeatedly is that Apple only has like 2-4% of the market, and therefore is inconsequential. If it were so inconsequential, I don’t believe people would be so excited about it, and you wouldn’t see as many articles about it. That’s just me, though. Majority doesn’t mean anything. Might DOES NOT make right.
“the above pc may have better specs, but I’m willing to bet the iMac performs better.”
You are missing something. The iMac cannot perform better with OS X with 32MB ram. Buy ram for the iMac to get it to the supported minimum and the PC user with the same amount of money can buy more ram or a new video card. It cannot perform better with Tiger because it isn’t supported on that machine.
It won’t perform better at playing DVDs cause it has no DVD player.
It won’t perform better for file storage when you hit the 6GB limit and the PC has 20GB.
It won’t perform better for screen real estate with a monitor that is 2″ smaller.
It won’t perform better with that 6MB ATI video card.
It won’t perform better for expansion cause the iMac cannot be expanded except for a few very basic things (ram). How do you add firewire and USB 2 to that iMac?
As for all of these comments about MS apologists and the like, please note that this is a thread on an article comparing the Mac OS to Windows. And it is written by Walter Mossberg’s Apple slave marketing pseudo journalist brother Steven Levy of Newsweek.
The sorts of things I have been mentioning are the sorts of things folks like Levy love to ignore. MS MSN search has been on XP for free for months. MS has shipped numerous new OSes since XP in 2001. XP has undergone 2.5 service pack updates and had myriad apps added to it for free. A Levy would love to have you think MS has done nothing while Apple has just innovated away. And MS is the only one with photocopiers, except when Apple brings out its own browser, email client, chat program, video chat program, fast user switching, a dock….after photocopying MS OSes.
I think Apple does plenty of things right. Tiger looks like it will be stellar release. But I take exception to fan boy pieces like Levy’s that only paint one color. If he forgets to paint in the other color, I am more than happy to add it here for him.
As an aside, I own two Macs that are both less than a year old, but that has nothing to do with being able to see through reality distortion fields.
anybody knows some rumours about pb g5? i’m thinking of buting one (powerbook) and i’m not sure if not to wait longer. afaik ibm was to introduce new less energy cinsuming chips mid 2005. also i thought they’d use tiger to promote new powerbook g5,,,
“Heh. I knew it. What is it about the McIntosh that draws all of the dorks to them? And it’s a special kind of dork, where a statement like “Macs are overpriced horseshit” is like kryptonite to them. They get all:”
Meanwhile Windows dorks, knowing that Longhorn probably won’t make it until 2007 and missing features, have nothing better to do than troll OS X threads. Makes one wonder why Windows would have fans at all.
for every person who posts on any computer forum (which includes me) to get up out of there chairs, stretch their arms, turn around, walk outside, and then start to enjoy LIFE!
There is a beautiful world outside of our homes and it is good for everyone to just CHILL OUT!
Windows has fans because they think it is cheap. Pile em high and sell em cheap. If they are honest about all the costs of extra software and bits and pieces no PC is cheap.
Anyway, this argument will never end.
If your using your machine for tasks as email, internet and word processing…..any aging Mac or PC will do.
If your using your machine for games, I’m sorry but the intergrated vid that comes with the MacMini and iMac WILL NOT play games without some seriously laxed vid settings. This is not to say that you can’t have a PC that would suffer from the same issue. With a PC your chance of an upgrade, if you wish, would be slightly better.
Also, like with myslef, some pc people like to do upgrades…think of us as the nerdy version of car enthusiasts.
In short there are pro’s and cons to both sides of these technologies and its our freedom to choose! I msyelf choose to embrace all of them.
Mattchewie: proud user of Linux/BSD/OSX and Windows. I see good in all of them 😀
The fact is, had the PC adopted OpenFirmware, I don’t think there would even be an issue; if the industry suddenly adopted OpenFirmware, you’d have cheap video cards a plenty for the PowerMac – it would be a non-issue. Buy a Mac, head down the road and purchase any old video card from the local shop.
The fact remains, until that glorious day occurs, the selection of cards available for the Mac will be limited
I will graciously refrain from joining the “my dick is bigger than yours” argument and point out a few things which I think are more significant [in this small corner of the multiverse, it doesn’t mean much to anyone else].
The fact that people high up in the Redmond food chain are saying Tiger is just an add-on for the iPod [a great sneer, really
], is indicating that Microsoft is in fact more than a little bit nervous about the work Apple has managed to do on their OS in recent years. As someone pointed out: it is a good thing there is competition, it will make Microsoft sit up and innovate, whether they like to spend the dollars or not.
Another thing is: Microsoft has announced Longhorn some time ago now and it appears they’re barely going to make the 2006 holiday season. Again, this is an indication. Apparently there are reasons why the biggest software company on the planet is not able to produce a new version of their operating system, even though they have:
– taken more time
– have all the people they want
– money enough and then some
– dropped features which they introduced as key elements in the new version
I think it’s far more significant to know why Microsoft is running so late with their development when there should be no reason why they couldn’t deliver on time. It can’t be a resource issue. It can hardly be for want of the will to deliver.
Something is stopping Microsoft from kicking the cow out of the barn on time. And it can only be because of the way they work. It strongly indicates that there are struggles within Microsoft which keep them from effectively focusing on the development of their core business. And when the largest software developer on Earth has that kind of problem, you have to ask yourself how the ship is being run.
This thread sees some solid Apple trashing but, amusing though it may be, it’s not addressing the underlying problem. Apple seems to be able to work hard on developing their systems and software and they crank out their stuff on time. “Real artists ship” [Steve Jobs].
It is entirely useless to make any claim concerning whether a new OS is worth $129. The people who don’t like the system will never pay that money. The people who do know why they’re doing it.
Besides the fact that this kind of argument tends to skew the dialog to fit the agenda [in whichever direction], this particular discussion does not touch on why one company seems powerless to deliver on time when it cannot claim to lack the resources required, where another company, notably smaller, manages to do exactly that.
If someone has a decent thought on that, I’d love to learn more.
From the article, describing Longhorn features: “…searching and visualization technology that replaces the old icons with a thumbnail of what the document actually looks like.”
Bravo, Microsoft! I bet THAT was REALLY REALLY hard to implement and what an original idea! I mean, welcome to… 2007.
Hettybembler wrote:
“Hasn’t apple been using that slogan for years?”
Yes. OS features aren’t the only thing Microsoft copies from Apple. Microsoft recycles their ad campaigns too. It seems Microsoft’s R&D department is located at:
Apple Computer Corp.
1 Infinite Loop
Cupertino, CA 95014
Luposian wrote:
“Let’s assume MacOS X 10.3.9 (Panther) is the Mac equivilent of Windows XP Home Edition (I’m assuming Pro would be equal to MacOS X Server)”
Wrong assumption. “Panther” (soon to be “Tiger”) is the Mac equivalent of XP Home and Pro. You don’t run XP Pro on servers. There is no distinction between “Home” and “Corporate” desktops in the Mac world. Windows Server 2003 is the Microsoft equivalent of OS X Server.
Asamoya wrote:
“Mac OS 10.3 cost $59 OEM and I’m sure once 10.4 has been released the same effect will occur.”
How do you do that? There are no OEM’s for Mac hardware. Apple makes it all. You can’t buy Mac hardware from anyone else.
Ooma wrote:
(Tiger) “Meoooooww!
LongHorn: Rooooooaaaaaarrrrr!”
You forgot one important point: “Meoooooww!” is available now. “Rooooooaaaaaarrrrr!” won’t be seen for at least another year-and-a-half (maybe more). By the time “Rooooooaaaaaarrrrr!” finally arrives, Microsoft will be playing catch up (again).
Shouldn’t Longhorn go “Mooooooo” instead or “Rooooaaaarrrr”? It is a cow after all.
Viro wrote:
“Shouldn’t Longhorn go “Mooooooo” instead or “Rooooaaaarrrr”? It is a cow after all.”
In more ways than one, I’m sure. As in slow, lumbering thing that just plods along. At any rate, you are correct. I just quoted what original author posted.
is a mountain. it wont moo or roar, it just kinda sits there.
“IE was dead until Firefox.
Real Search was dead–pushed out until 2009 according to Gates–until Jobs showed Spotlight. ”
Actually, you could do the same real-time search back in 1998 with BeOS R4. The same guy, Dominic Giampaolo, wrote both BFS and Spotlight. Take a look at his site http://www.nobius.org/~dbg/
See ya
Longevity:
My G3 233mhz bondi blue iMac will not die.
Forced upgrades:
My 1 ghz iMac lamp came with 10.2.6.
The upgrade to 10.2.8 was free.
I’m going to blow the dough, and buy Tiger.
Any objections?
The comment a bout Tiger meow, longhorn roar, by Ooma should be:
Tiger, eats cows.
Longhorn, Mooooo……..
Times that ChanMan posted:
21:04:18
22:28:32
23:02:36
23:24:00
00:20:56
00:48:48
00:52:00
00:59:15
01:06:17
01:17:04
01:24:02
01:31:32
01:34:34
01:39:25
03:07:22
I read the entire thread and I’m going to guess, based on the times of his postings, that this guy works for MS, and during his shift, his job is to hang out in a number of popular forums like this one, and defend the company against anything that might be seen as a threat to the mothership, and try to sway people away from the competition.
Either that , or he’s a security guard, or an operating engineer, or someone else who sits at a computer all night long.
It may even be Steve Balmer himself!
Actually, Longhorn is a bar at the base of a mountain. Take that for whatever it’s worth.
XP Pro x64 is free but has $12 or $22 shipping charge.
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/64bit/upgrade/default.mspx
Oh yeah, there’s another new MS OS that guys like Levy would like to ignore too. Especially since its free.
XP Pro x64 is free but has $12 or $22 shipping charge.
Don’t make me laugh. XP x64 is a such a joke it’s not even worth the $20. Don’t even try to compare it to a real operating system like OS X.
kaiwai: Personally, I rather be bitter and yet still have the vast majority of the market with billions of dollars in revenue each year. Oh, Apple innovates or so everyone says. Yet Apple integer market share percentage don’t even register at double digits – funny, for a market leader.
And you act as if Apple is the source of all brilliant ideas. Take Dashboard for example – it’s been around on different platforms for quite sometime. Apple took an existing idea (desktop applets) and make it look really cool with animation that makes one’s mind so dizzy to ignore the fact that the original idea is really, really old. Same with Spotlight – Mac OS X is not exactly the first in that field.
It is interesting to see people spend considerable time defending products that they have purchased.
How about we take a step back and look at what we’re really talking about here. There is more to life than the products you choose to purchase.
Blind devotion to brands is really quite sad. Experts market this “lifestyle” to you, and you eat it up. Advertising makes products seem so damn important in your life, that you believe it; that you think you can’t live without it. But it is not the case. It is not that important. It is just a tool to help you get something done.
Look around your house at the products you own, and the branding that exists on them. When you walk around with that Diesel t-shirt on, what is it saying about you? What do you want it to say about you? That this pre-packaged lifestyle sold to you is who you are?
It’s about Corporate owned culture. Lift up the veil and see the ugliness underneath. The products you buy are not important and don’t describe who you are. Apple and Microsoft are not loyal to you, why are you so loyal to them? You are a statistic to present to their shareholders. You are 1 of the 1 million macs sold this year. You are 1 of the 25 million mac users. You are 1 of the 100’s of millions of windows users. Just another dollar. A consumer. Get over it.
“Take Dashboard for example – it’s been around on different platforms for quite sometime. Apple took an existing idea (desktop applets)…”
Uhhh…Mac OS 1.0’s “desktop ornaments” anyone? Considering it was the first OS with a desktop, I assure you it was also the first OS with desktop applets.
@Rajan R.
Take Dashboard for example – it’s been around on different platforms for quite sometime.
Bad example: This was introduced by Apple as so called “desk accessories”
http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story=Desk_O…
Chan and Rajan just go away. Neither of you have anything useful to contribute other than hate. We are going to see more and more people upset the closer Tiger is released.
Oh BTW comparing Konfab and Dashboard is useless unless you have used them both and they are different and I’ll take Dashboard any day. The idea is the same but the implementation is different and unless you have used them both you would know that Konfab copied a feature from Dashboard.
Why is is that people that don’t even like Macs, have not even used them and have nothing to day pertinent to the discussion write the MOST in every Mac article that comes out. Tiger in 4 days and a wakeup, Longhorn in ? EH? UH? OK?
Dashboard is a lot better than konfab as far as usability and the accessibility for people to make widgets.
Dashboard is useful because the widgets are not in your way while you work and you can summon them only when you need them. they do not get covered up and they do not clutter your desktop.
Dashboard uses webcore and css and javascript, perl, php, c++, etc and can connect to other programs for more power.
Bad example: This was introduced by Apple as so called “desk accessories”
http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story=De…
So apple had fully scriptable widgets way back then ?
From what I remember they were compiled applications and non programmers were not able to create them, which is what we have today. Scripted widgets that mere mortals can create.
Big differnece.
Dashboard really has nothing to do with the original desktop accessories beyond a lot of folks mistaking they were/are the same thing.
dude.. back then NO ONE programmed unless they were a programmer or wanted to be one. besides that, the infrastructure to make scriptable apps was not there, nor was the computing power.
the fact is that it is an IDEA not an IMPLEMENTATION. the post that he was responding to was all about ideas.
“Oh BTW comparing Konfab and Dashboard is useless unless you have used them both and they are different and I’ll take Dashboard any day. The idea is the same but the implementation is different and unless you have used them both you would know that Konfab copied a feature from Dashboard.”
Sorry I was in a hurry. What I meant to say was that comparisons between Konfab and Dashboard are useless, UNLESS you have used them both and in using them they are different and I personally will take Dashboard over Konfab.
In your Compairing OS versions, XP Pro is NOT a server OS. OSX equals XP Pro and Home with it’s limited amount of network shares and default no administrator password I don’t even consider. Windows 2003 Server ETC is what compairs to OSX Server. They are both Server OSs. XP Pro is not.
Also you compaired your friends IMac 333mhz to a PII 333? I have a P2 333Mhz 66Mhz Bus Celeron on an ABit BM6. If you give it 256 Megs RAM and say a 16 Meg Video card, it would run XP just fine as long as you did not open a lot of applications at the same time. Same with the Imac 333mhz and OSX. they would be quite close in overall speed navagating the desktop. In my tests though I was quite suprised that the 333G3 in stuff like making Archives with Stuffit on both systems, The Mac of the same MHZ was faster every time. That suprised me. But for you to say that XP will not even run on a 333 PII is wrong. It will and if you are not expecting it to FLY, it runs quite well for basic computing, as does the Imac G3 333.
I have to laugh. Suse has been dishing out most of these “features” for over a year, as have Redhat, Mandrake and others.
64 bit computing. Wow! Now that’s really something new and unique.
yawn….