I read a lot of reviews comparing GNU/Linux and Microsoft Windows, and inevitably the topic of installing software comes up. Most reviews indicate that installing software in Windows is much easier than that of the desktop GNU/Linux world. I decided to do my own comparison based on my desktop usage to see the difference. The following are my results. Those of you that come from the Windows world may be a tad bit surprised at the ease in which software can be installed.Note: This article is the personal opinion of the author and not necessarily that of OSNews’.
The Windows box I used for this test consisted of 500 MHZ Intel P3 processor with 384 megs of RAM. The Debian box is an old AMD K6-2 366Mhz processor with 128 Megs of RAM. I have a broadband DSL connection that gets a 1.5 megabit a second download speed.
There are several ways to install software on a GNU/Linux distribution. One of the ways is to get a source “tar ball” unpack it, and issue the commands “./configure” “make ” “su -c ‘make install’ ” this will work on every GNU/Linux distro available. However there is a problem with this method: it’s called “dependency hell.” The program that you are trying to install may depend on other libraries that are not installed on your system, and this will prevent the program from installing cleanly or even operating until the dependencies are met. The additional libraries that are needed may also depend on even more libraries hence the term dependency hell.
One of the ways around this is to pick a distro that has an excellent package management system, such as Debian, which uses the apt-get package management system, or Vidalinux, which is based on Gentoo but designed for the desktop, and uses the Portage source tree. Package managers must be linked to a repository. A repository is simply an FTP or HTTP server that has the software configured for a particular distro. For example: Vidalinux is linked to the Gentoo’s Portgage tree which contains over 8000 packages. Debian is set up to link to either the stable, testing or unstable branch of their repository.
Debian, as stated above, uses the apt-get package management system that is shared by several distros that are based upon Debian, including, Ubuntu, Libranet, Mepis ,and Xandros, to name only a very few. The Debian repository also has thousands of titles to its credit. Installing software is as simple as opening a terminal and typing “apt-get install [ package name ]”. The package managers listed not only install the desired package but also install any dependencies that the package may have, effectively eliminating dependency hell. Other distros, Linspire, for exmple, are making the installation of software even easer by placing icons on the desktop that link to the distro’s repository. Simply click the icon, which opens your browser and directs you to the site, then click the desired software that you wish to install. Another way to install software on a GNU/Linux system is by getting a precompiled package in the form of an RPM. Distros such as RedHat, Suse and Mandrake use this format as well as their own individual package managers. Don’t be confused, however; not all distros are RPM based. With an RPM based system, installing software can be as simple as typing the command “rpm -ivh [ package name ]”. Providing that all dependencies are met, and you have a broadband connection, your software will be installed in a matter of only a few seconds.
Virtually any package made can be installed on a Gentoo system right after its release, once it’s added to the Portage tree. Because it is a source-based distro, their repository changes daily as new source packages are added, unlike the other methods where you may have to wait for a package compiled for your distro. One other problem with source-based installs is long compile times, as you will see. It can take hours to install a program by source, even on modern equipment.
I needed a program for this demonstration that was cross-platform to be fair, so I choose the Word Processor Abiword. This a an excellent word Processor and, as stated earlier, is available for multiple platforms including the Macintosh. This article assumes that you know what program you are looking for.
Let’s start out with doing the installation on the Debian based computer first
Step 1 Open terminal
Step 2 type “su -” to gain root privileges
Step 3 enter password
Step 4 type “apt-get install abiword” hit enter
Step 5 type “y” for yes when prompted whether or not you want to install the package.
15 seconds later I was opening Abiword and it was ready for use.
I executed the install procedure once again this time using Vidalinux. Vidalinux is a distribution that is installed with pre-compiled packages for a particular processor or i686 architecture and is designed to be used as a Desktop OS. It uses Gentoo’s Portage tree to gain access to additional packages. It installs the software by compiling the source code. I issued the command “emerge abiword”. Approx 34 minutes later on a system consisting of a Celeron 2.8 Ghz processor with 256MB of RAM, abiword was ready to go. Although installing the program on Vidalinux was time consuming, it is still shorter in steps and an easier process than installing software on Windows.
Now for the Windows installation.
Step 1 open web browser
Step 2 navigate to abisource.com The home page of abiword
Step 3 find and click the download link
Step 4 find and click the Windows Link
Step 5 click OK to save when the dialog box opens
Step 6 wait approx 45 seconds for download
Step 7 close browser and all other running programs.
Step 8 navigate to the setup icon and double click it
step 9 select Language click OK
Step 10 click next when the setup wizard appears.
Step 11 agree to license, click next
Step 12 choose file associations, click next
Step 13 choose Location for installation, click next
Step 14 choose start menu folder options, click next
Wait for installation, approx 35 seconds, click next when completed
Step 15 click finish.
As this plainly shows, I believe that GNU/Linux distros such as Vidalinux and Debian have the upper hand at installing the average desktop users software. I know some will complain about a 34 minute compile time, but if you do you are missing the point. Installing software on a GNU/Linux system does not have to be a tedious task for a desktop user, as thousands of programs are only a very short command away. This may not be a typical procedure for all of GNU/Linux, but there are many excellent desktop distros available today that use apt-get as their package manager making software installation just as easy as above. It is also worth noting that these are not the only two packagers managers available. Fedora uses YUM by default and it can be linked to several different repositories allowing access to thousands of additional packages with the same ease of use.
Score:
GNU/Linux 5
Windows 15
It’s like Golf the lower score wins. However I know some will dispute this and still stick by the notion that installing software in Windows is still easier, but let go of your preconceptions, and give Linux a try, and you’ll see.
What’s funny is it never really was a RTFM world, they just didn’t (don’t) know it.
Back in the day…say 1985…it was a RTFM world, simply because you wouldn’t let someone like my wife touch that $8,000 — 1985 dollars– workstation.
There was always the IBMjr, but then we were forced to create those batch file menu systems…
The Apple IIc was no easy-to-use system either. AppleDOS II, if I remember correctly was as complex as DOS.
I do not miss those days.
rob
The wife *COULD* not figure out how to use the main workstation. A week later I gave up and shelled out 100 bux for winXP.
That’s strange. My ex-girlfriend was a total non-geek, a novice computer user who barely gets by on Windows. She had no problems whatsoever using KDE 3.2 (and later variants).
Usability studies have shown that Gnome 2 is at least as easy to use as Windows.
“I just want to click and have it work”.
Linux just works. Enough with the FUD.
he world is no longer RTFM based, if a user needs to read they’ll give up.
I’ve only needed to RTFM for system administration – and that’s true of Windows as much as Linux.
This is a lesson MS and Apple both know, but the Linux crowed seemed to not hear.
No, the lesson has been heard and learned, which is why modern Linux desktops are as easy to use today as Windows XP. Of course, if you’re already used to Windows XP there is a small learning curve, but the reverse is true as well.
Back in the day…say 1985…it was a RTFM world, simply because you wouldn’t let someone like my wife touch that $8,000 — 1985 dollars– workstation.
And yet office secretaries used DOS all over the world. My first PC was a Sinclair ZX81. I was 11 years old, IIRC, and yet I manage to learn how to use this totally user-unfriendly system. And then, one or two years later I learned how to use the first generation of IBM PCs. And so did everybody else.
It seems to me that there’s a common misconceptions that users have somehow become less intelligent since then…
In any case, modern Linux desktops are as easy to use as Windows. Personal experience and empirical research have demonstrated this time and time again.
Try a few different distros.
Why? If you’re satisfied with your distro, why should you switch? I’ve been a happy Mandrake user for three years. Its package manager works just fine for me.
Try installing various apps to those distros. Refrain from pulling out all hair and curb desire to bludgeon author of this article for suggesting Linux is that easy.
If you go out of your way to make life difficult for yourself, then of course you can claim that Linux isn’t easy. Linux is what you make of it. If you install official Mandrake packages from the repository, you won’t have any problems (and the process will be indeed easier and much, much faster than under Windows).
Seriously, the author has chosen to take the easiest install experience possible under and Linux distro.
No he didn’t. For some reason he chose a command-line tool. For ease of use, he should have used a GUI package-manager front-end, such as rpmdrake.
Usually, the user ends up with one vague error message or another. Dependancy hell is not a phrase the author seems familiar with.
Dependency Hell has never happened for me when using official packages for my distro. And with upwards of 6,000 packages in the official repository, I’ve always been able to find the apps I need. When I didn’t, there were double-click installers available and all worked well.
Enough with the FUD.
Your posts consistently rereat two misunderstandings which I’ll attempt to clear up for you.
Re: package management
You cannot compare .msi packages and apt. An .msi file is the equivalent of .deb or .rpm file. Apt is a collection of utilities which exists above the underlying packge management system that allows for packages and their dependecies (deb or rpm) to installed from central repositories.
You’ve stated that:
PSEXEC MachineName -c LOCALPATH TO INSTALLER.msi “INSTALLER.msi /q” -u USERNAME
is the Windows equivalent to initiating a root session to a linux box with apt installed and typing:
apt-get install packagename
This is incorrect for a couple of important reasons. First, let’s set aside the issue of how one invokes a “shell session” on a remote machine. Sysintenals PSEXEC is a much welcome utility on Windows, but it is not the functional equivalent of shh, which is designed to accomplish more than PSEXEC. With that out of the way, lets examine the functionality which apt brings to the table abovwe and beyond what is provided by a simple package management (.msi or .deb).
The functional equivalent to your PSEXEC command on Debian machine would be:
wget ftp://path/to/package.deb && dpkg -i package.deb
Which grabs a remote package and then feeds it to the installation utility. Installing a package in this manner could definitely be useful in many circumstances, but apt brings a whole host of additional functions to the table. First, as you’ve noted, you must know the actual location of the package you are looking to install, whereas with apt you only need to the name of the package you wish to install. Apt only requires that input the package name rather than the full location because it has a searchable index of all the package names and description which are available in the repository. Apt is a system for managing large repositories of software packages, including utilities for installing, resolving dependencies, updating, and uninstalling.
It is worth noting the dependency resolution is a distinctly different reality on Linux as compared to Windows. Much of the underlying technical realities are the same, but on Windows it has long been conventional to include a program’s dependencies within the package, unless those dependencies are included in the standard Windows system.
One might well argue that the conventions covering software packaging on Windows is superior, and I’d agree that there are definitely circumstances where that is true (eg., commercial binary only programs), but it is also true that apt is a vastly superior solution when the program you want to install is included in one of the repositories provided by your distro (over 10,000 programs in Debian testing/unstable currently).
Secondly, you write:
what all of the linux users seem to be missing is that in MOST of your arguments you depend on a particular distribution with a particular installer and specific knowledge about how to use it
to which I must reply, of course they do, as the generic Linux OS doesn’t exist except as a conceptual shorthand for huge number of specific distributions which range from highly customized embedded distributions burned on a ROM in a set-top appliance to server instance running on an IBM mainframe. So I must ask, why don’t you just pick a damn distribution and learn it? Really, you can learn Debian and remain totally unaware of how things are done on Fedora without losing any the functionality of Debian. The same is, of course, true in reverse. Of course, most people will find that after learning one distro, it’s only a matter of reading a couple of pages and hour or so of tinkering to completely transistion their skills from distro to another.
Excellent post. Very thorough.
Dependency Hell has never happened for me when using official packages for my distro. And with upwards of 6,000 packages in the official repository, I’ve always been able to find the apps I need. When I didn’t, there were double-click installers available and all worked well.
The reason about dependency hell myth shows that some people does not have any clue about the functionality of rpm nor dpkg (designed to install a single package). Try to do ‘make && make install’ with a package on a system that does not include a needed package to be compiled.
Heh, heh! Your name is Rebecca and you’re 13 yrs old and you can install Arch Linux. Yeah, right. Just don’t expect anyone to believe you.
Don’t embarrass yourself. If a 15 years-old teen is able to get a doctorate, why not a 13 years old can install a distro like Arch Linux?
Heh, heh! Your name is Rebecca and you’re 13 yrs old and you can install Arch Linux. Yeah, right. Just don’t expect anyone to believe you.
I don’t see why a 13 year-old wouldn’t be able to install a modern Linux distro. Hey, learned to program APL when I was 13 (a lot of good it did me, too
).
Or perhaps you think that girls aren’t as good with computers as boys?
Don’t embarrass yourself. If a 15 years-old teen is able to get a doctorate, why not a 13 years old can install a distro like Arch Linux?
I have problem with host server
The whole story is just terribly unbelievable. Read it yourself and make your own conclusions.
I like the idea that someone would have parents using a GNU/Linux system and no experience at all on using MS Windows system. However, that’s clearly just imagination.
Basides, it’s clearly impossible that someone could install a distro like Arch Linux not being a GNU/Linux guru (or, at least, not wearing a propeller-hat). Just don’t embarrass yourself by claiming the opposite.
By “Basides” I meant “Besides. Sorry for the inconvenience. 😉
Basides, it’s clearly impossible that someone could install a distro like Arch Linux not being a GNU/Linux guru (or, at least, not wearing a propeller-hat). Just don’t embarrass yourself by claiming the opposite.
You forgot parents that are GNU/Linux gurus to provide help.
Real life example: I need software to file taxes. I am ready to pay for it, $30-$40. Saves me time, saves me money on not missed deductions.
****************************Windows, Part I.
For Windows, I drive to CompUSA and ask salesperson for tax preparation software. QuickTax, TacWiz, TaxBlahBlah- they offer me.
I choose QuickTax. It is one CD, the box says: Win95/98/ME/NT4.0/2000/XP.
Same binary (as far as I can tell), runs on 10 years old OS. Sure, QuickTax is not a rocket science, just a simple software application, why not?
I put CD disk to CD drive, autoplay starts and usual boring long, long, painfully long Windows installation starts.
***************************Linux, Part II.
#apt-get install QuickTax
#apt-get install quicktax
#apt-get install “tax preparation software”
#emerge QuickTax
#Sesame, open!
#WTF!!!!!!
#(*&^%^%^%^%^$%#^%$#%& you!
Gets me nowhere.
OK, I am dumb Linux user. So, I start my car and drive to LinUSA. I want tax preparation software, I am saying to salesman. Next, he truly tries to help me:
– What Linux do you run?
– I do not remember, some type of ByzantineOS, perhaps.
– You sure it is not Lindows?
– Who am I to you, a Lunar? I think the name of my distro is more like mandows.
– Can you be more Specifix?
– I can not be even more Scientific. I am telling you, it is Linux! Devil, I can not even remember the name of my Linux Puppy. All I remember it is Damn Small!
– Are you making fun of me and all mighty Linux?
– Not at all, Pingwinek. Sorry, I’ll come later with my desktop so that you’ll check what Linux am I running.
*************************************
All bold names are names of real Linux distros, you can check at http://www.distrowatch.org
>“That is why you just install it the normal way instead of hunting through websites, like you would on windows.”
That is called freedom of choice, baby!
So, next time someone starts telling me stories about vendor lock-in, I’ll ask them where are they getting all their Linux software from, the normal way.
Here is what happens.
First most people don’t know about apt-get if they’re fairly new to Linux.
Second where is the logic in apt-get? When I want to install software I want to install it, not set it up (setup.exe) or apt-get it makes no sense. Isn’t installing the goal here? apt-get is obscure at best and when I want to setup something it is usually after I install it. Isn’t install the comon goal regardless of the platform?
Here is a scenario that recently had a buddy ring my phone. He get himself INSTALLED with Mandrake 10 community (thanks to me) he then SETUP his box with software he wants. Grabs Firefox and starts a little surfing and waddya know he needs Java. No big deal just INSTALL it right? Wrong! He find he can’t auto install in Firefox with a .xpi so over to Sun for the manual download. Tries to figure out the RPM thing and finds himself but gives up and calls me. Here are the INSTALL directions
http://www.java.com/en/download/help/5000010500.xml#selfextracting
To install the Linux RPM (self-extracting) file
Follow these instructions:
1. At the terminal: Type:
su
2. Enter the root password.
3. Change to the directory in which you want to install. Type:
cd
For example, to install the software in the /usr/java/ directory, Type:
cd /usr/java
Note about root access: To install the JRE in a system-wide location such as/usr/local, you must login as the root user to gain the necessary permissions. If you do not have root access, install the JRE in your home directory or a subdirectory for which you have write permissions.
4. Change the permission of the file you downloaded to be executable. Type:
chmod a+x jre-1_5_0-linux-i586-rpm.bin
5. Start the installation process. Type:
./jre-1_5_0-linux-i586-rpm.bin
This displays a binary license agreement. Read through the agreement. Press the spacebar to display the next page. At the end, enter yes to proceed with the installation.
type YES to agree to the license agreement
6. The installation file creates jre-1_5_0-linux-i586.rpm file in the current directory.
RPM unpacking completes
7. Run the RPM command at the terminal to install the packages. Type:
rpm -iv jre-1_5_0-linux-i586.rpm
8. The JRE is installed in jre1.5.(version number) sub-directory under the current directory. In this case, the JRE is installed in the /usr/java/jre1.5.0 directory. Verify that the jre1.5.0 sub-directory is listed under the current directory. Type:
ls
Verify the installation filename
The installation is now complete. Go to the Enable and Configure section.
I won’t even go into explaining how we got Firefox to use Java since the directions only cover Mozilla and the directories and such are different.
Windows and Linux have some work to do in this area but Linux has a LONG way to go. Next week I explain how we got 3D ATI drivers going.
i>I don’t see why a 13 year-old wouldn’t be able to install a modern Linux distro. Hey, learned to program APL when I was 13 (a lot of good it did me, too
).
Or perhaps you think that girls aren’t as good with computers as boys?[/i]
Did you actually read the post I was responding to? It’s clearly fictive — a “speculative fiction” as you’d probably like to call it. It’s a nice play on the available possibilities, but there’s no doubt that it’s all fiction.
And, yes, I really think that girls aren’t usually as interested in computers as boys. You can sue me for my opinions. :-p
Yes thats one way to install java. However you could have just as easily ran “apt-get install j2re” for the java runtime envir. and “apt-get install mozilla-j2re” for the plugin.
Software installation is NOT easier on a Linux system. Not to a windows user, and especially not with the examples you describe.
This article would make no sense on a windows forum, and if we hope to teach and convert, that needs to be the criteria.
As both a windows and linux user I’ve always loved linux and thought it was a great OS, but you cant get over the fact that NO established windows user is going to convert to *NIX because they are just that, established. They’re not going to go out of their way to relearn all their favorite programs even if they are crap, just so they can make you fanboys happy.
HEADLINE:
Attention you linux fanboys — it may seem easy to install *some* programs on linux, but what if i want to play Half-life 2? Or run any of those other windows games? Dont even suggest WINE, because that hardly will work with something as shitty as steam (LOL). Please, get over Linux, its wonderful because its the underdog, we all know!! so stop bashing Windows.
Windows is the target of a TON of hackers! That’s why there are so many bugs found, not because the programmers are complete idiots. For its size and ease of use, windows does an AWESOME job of handling software updates and installs. WTH are you measuring things like CLICKS come on just look at compatability here! If we’re going to be specific down to the click, then try checking out the OPEN button in internet explorer when you try to download a file? That might save you a few steps. In any case, linux is a sweet OS, but windows OBLITERATES it when it comes to ease of use! People who are running windows, look around and just notice how freaking uniform everything is, that is the goal of this OS, its not to have “less clicks” then linux.
I currently have a duel boot system with fedora core 3 and windows XP. Getting fedora all setup was not to easy, I had to bend over backwards just to get things MP3 support, come on, that stuff should be a no-brainer! If the average user logs on to his newly installed linux machine and tries to play an MP3 only to find an error telling him there is no MP3 support, what is he going to think? “Uh oh i guess i need the MPEG layer 3 codec” or “damn let me try to reboot!” Catch my drift??
ok i’m done ranting, let the flaming begin
How to get java:
KDE->System->Synaptic Package manager
Dialog box appears – enter the root passwrod.
Click the “Search” button
Type “java” into the search dialog
Scrool through the list of search results showing java add-ons & other things, and notice that the “java-common” is already installed.
Read the description of “java-common” which says:
=================
Base of all Java packages
This package must be installed in the system if a Java environment is desired. It covers useful information for Java users in Debian GNU/Linux, including:
* The Java policy document which describes the layout of Java support in Debian and how Java packages should behave.
* The Debian-Java-FAQ which provides information on the status of Java support in Debian, available compilers, virtual machines, Java programs and libraries as well as on legal issues.
* Information on how to create dummy packages to fullfill java2 requirements.
=======================
OK, so it was installed already when I first installed MEPIS.
Quit Synaptic.
Done.
You just don’t get it, do you?
There are myriad packages available for Linux. Basically the same packages are available for all the Linux distributions – but the exact same “packaged” binaries do not work across all distributions.
So each distribution organisation takes the common source code, compiles it to a binary that is set up for that distribution, packages the binary and associated files (including config files) into an installable “package” ***for that distribution*** and places the complete package in an on-line repository for anyone to download use if they want.
So if you want firefox for Linux, you can go to the firefox web site and download & install from there if you want to – but that will prove to be a messy way to do it.
By far the better way is to go to your package manager and get the same program from your distribution repository.
So for Debian: either type apt-get install mozilla-firefox (that is one way), or if you prefer a GUI:
KDE->System->Synaptic Package Manager
at the dialog, enter the root password.
Click search
Type “firefox” in the search box.
In the search result window, double-click the mozilla-firefox package to mark it for install.
Click Apply.
Click Apply again.
Wait for the download to complete, and the package to install.
Click close.
Quit Synaptic.
You are all done. Firefox will be on your menus.
The method will be slightly different for other distributions and their associated repositories. For Mandrake you use the Mandrake package manager, which is called rpmdrake. For Suse, you use YAST. The process and the results are very similar though.
Just because Windows doesn’t have a single place to search for and install programs from, and it doesn’t have a single easy-to-use install method like Linux distributions do, doesn’t mean that Linux should be badmouthed for Windows lack.
Your problem is that you used RedHat.
Try MEPIS (Debian based). MP3 support right out of the box.
I did have a bit more trouble with DVD support. When I first stated kaffeine, it told me that I would have to get a decoder installed, by the name of libdvdcss. This pakcage was not part of the default Debian repositories.
A few seconds searching on the net told me that I needed to add another source to my list of repositories. I did that, then “apt-get update && apt-get install libdvdcss” – all done.
I am sure that a similar result could have been obtained for RedHat by using yum (rather than apt-get which is for Debian).
Attention you linux fanboys — it may seem easy to install *some* programs on linux, but what if i want to play Half-life 2? Or run any of those other windows games? Dont even suggest WINE, because that hardly will work with something as shitty as steam (LOL).
You should try it instead of saying it won’t work, because it does. Transgaming’s Cedega makes using Steam and playing Half-Life 2 on Linux a snap if you have a gaming machine. You’ll get a few less frames per second, but on modern hardware it is very playable.
Man, this article surely was a FUD magnet, the likes I’ve only rarely seen.
“You are assuming those tools are available, and that you know the exact commands to use.
If I make a similar assumption for windows I can just say
– PSEXEC MachineName -c LOCALPATH TO INSTALLER.msi “INSTALLER.msi /q” -u USERNAME
– Enter password at prompt
for most applications I install.
THERE I just BEAT THAT on Windows!!! ”
I assume no such thing. If I know a machine name and the root password to it, then I am the administrator of that machine and I happen to *KNOW* it is debian-based, therefore with apt-get installed. If I know about ssh and I know the root password to a machine, then it is incredibly unlikely that I would not know “apt-get install package-name”.
I would also be highly likely to know “apt-cache search <regular expression>” if I did not happen to know the exact package name – so I could find out what that name is anyway.
You on the other hand assume that the program you wish to install has an .msi installer.
I would also venture to suggest that there are many Windows admins who do not know PSEXEC.
So no, you did not beat that on windows. Not even close.
I am sure that a similar result could have been obtained for RedHat by using yum (rather than apt-get which is for Debian).
Depends on “the repositories” you have enabled,other than that yes practically the same,”yum install xine” on CentOS 4.0 (RHEL4.0) gives the whole deal,or “emerge xine-ui && emerge libdvdcss” on Gentoo.
I currently have a duel boot system with fedora core 3 and windows XP. Getting fedora all setup was not to easy, I had to bend over backwards just to get things MP3 support, come on, that stuff should be a no-brainer! If the average user logs on to his newly installed linux machine and tries to play an MP3 only to find an error telling him there is no MP3 support, what is he going to think? “Uh oh i guess i need the MPEG layer 3 codec” or “damn let me try to reboot!” Catch my drift??
Fedora Core is 100 percent open sources. The reason Fedora Core 3 does not include mp3 support is due to mp3 licenses:
http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=1890&page=5
http://www.nward.net/commentary/mp3/
http://www.newsforge.com/business/02/08/29/1633205.shtml?tid=17
Because Red Hat is a commercial company, they decide to remove mp3 support to avoid lawsuits. Don’t blame them for the removal. Look at US software patents laws.
You’re correct except Mandrake doesn’t come with apt-get, so over to rpmfind.net to get it. Well that one doesn’t work (not to mention the dependency hell thing to get it installed). I have read there is another one that does work but have not tried is of yet. I do not have a problem using tarball files but I can certainly understand frustration of users trying to install software in Linux.
So many posts not worth reading. I suppose I might as well add mine to the list….
I liked the article. It was slightly biased towards Debian/Gentoo though.
I havent heard much mention of one of the most important practical issues that is related to this argument of installing software on Windows vs Debian/Gentoo and that is the issue of spyware/malware.
Spyware and malware effectively do not exist to me, and I doubt it’ll ever be a problem. The reason being that such crap isn’t going to make it into Debian now is it? And I can say sure as hell that my install of program X in apt isnt going to act as a piggy back for gator.
We have a sort of quality control that windows users lack. Broken things get marked as broken, malicious things never get included in the first place.
In windows installing any program that you are not closely familar with is a bit of a gamble, who knows what that exe is going to do? Who knows what its going to install? Who knows what files are in there?
And for me, installing software is a case of “sudo aptitude –assume-yes install abiword”. One command, no interactivity needed. Lack of interactivity needed means how long it takes is less important, I dont have to be there to click the next button in the install, or double click the .exe when its downloaded. This means I can be productive in the meantime.
Yes as a windows user you will have to learn how to use aptitude. But its a hell of alot easier then trying to work out how to install a program in windows *and* knowing
you wont hose your system (which generally means learning how to use adware/nortonantivirus/whateversoftwareyouneedtotoprotectwindowsfromsi lly.exe’s
take me as a n00b, but with all those commands, where does the program get installed? I like to know where things go… in windows, I usually just set the path while installing.
so if i need to install the app in some other location i will type the path of the new location? in the console along with the other command…. so i have to type a lot in the console…..
i prefer just clicking “next…next” and stopiing when needed…
honestly I dont have anything against linux, but I wont agree to the fact that its still not as easy going as Windows is.
What is to get?
Look at what you wrote
“So if you want firefox for Linux, you can go to the firefox web site and download & install from there if you want to – but that will prove to be a messy way to do it.”
By your own admission it is “messy”
Then you run over to Debian Linux to site your example. Why don’t you cover the install of apt-get on Mandrake to make it work on the distribution or was it easier for you to overlook that and go back to a distribution that already has it?
You obviously have some poor reading comprehension skills or you would have not made this comment.
“Just because Windows doesn’t have a single place to search for and install programs from, and it doesn’t have a single easy-to-use install method like Linux distributions do, doesn’t mean that Linux should be badmouthed for Windows lack.”
I am not badmouthing Linux I was badmouthing Linux AND Windows. And you’re wrong with Windows on a single place to install, does Add/Remove programs ring a bell? Is it lacking you bet but it is a single place to install like it or not.
Apt-get is great if you have it on your distribution and I love the idea. But like I said most new users certainly don’t know about it (that doesn’t mean it doesn’t do its job) anymore than many experienced Windows users know about installs from Start>Run>\192.168.0.1winampsetup.exe (just a local example of my home network)
I try not to be biased about any platform and try to see their shortcomings as well as their strengths. I would recommend this philosophy to any would be zealots.
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“So if you want firefox for Linux, you can go to the firefox web site and download & install from there if you want to – but that will prove to be a messy way to do it.”
By your own admission it is “messy”
===
It is only messy if you DON’T use your distribution repositories. If you get the same prgram from the correct repository, it is not messy at all. I think you have got a bad case of “proprietary windows-think” here – you seem to think there is only one place to get a given program from. That might be true of Windows, but it is not true of Linux distributions.
======
Then you run over to Debian Linux to site your example. Why don’t you cover the install of apt-get on Mandrake to make it work on the distribution or was it easier for you to overlook that and go back to a distribution that already has it?
======
If one has Debian installed, one gets firefox from debian repositories by using apt-get or synaptic(command-line and GUI respectively).
If one has Mandrake installed, one gets the same program firefox from Mandrake repositories using urpmi or rpmdrake (command-line and GUI respectively).
Don’t mix them up – it won’t work at all well for the similar reasons that it is not a good idea to get firefox directly from the firefox website. Get it from the repositories of your own distribution and there will be no trouble whatsoever.
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“And you’re wrong with Windows on a single place to install, does Add/Remove programs ring a bell? Is it lacking you bet but it is a single place to install like it or not. ”
===
Pfft. Utter rubbish. Less than 5% of the programs anyone might install on a Windows machine would start the installation process from the “Add/Remove Programs” Control Panel applet. In what fantasy world does this become a “single place to install” ?
It would seem it is you who have 100 times more difficulty with reading comprehension than I do.
===
But like I said most new users certainly don’t know about it
===
Synaptic is right there on the Menus – it is more visible than Add/remove Programs in the Control Panel – and it is a one-stop shop for all installs. 16000+ programs available from the Debian repositories – I’m sure also similar numbers in Mandrake or RedHat repositories (for those distributions respectively) as well.
There is nothing on Windows that comes remotely close to the ease of obtaining new software and installing on Linux using these tools.
Well I”ve been using both for awhile now and I”ve got to say that its far easier for the end user to use Windows. Just saying that makes me grind my teeth though because I love Linux. But the fact remains. I use Slackware, not Debain, and for the most its getting better as far as having prepackaged software availble, but not really. Most of the time I have to install from source code. and that involves a lil more steps than 5.
Installing Software: A GNU/Linux VS. MS Windows Comparison
Posted by special contributor Kevin Russo on 2005-03-31 18:40:11 UTC
I think a better comparison would have been to install a linux distro such as Suse 9.2 pro and windows XP on the same machine. The install would include all of the drivers and software one would use in a Workstation or office type environment. Since Suse recognizes all of my hardware and installs all of the drivers and office software at the intial install, It beats windows XP hands down on my machine.
Windows XP takes longer and I have to install drivers for my video card, Modem, Motherboard chipset, USB, and then still install MS Office or Open Office, Roxio Burning software, Graphic and photo software. With My Linux Distro all of this is installed from a DVD Disc and ready to go without having to use other CD’s to install the Drivers and other software.
M H Bell
I’ve used Mandrake,slackware and linspire. Out of the 3, which do u think I had an easier time with?
Slackware was easier for me and much more powerful. You might say yeah for the average geek but the truth is, its not geeky or any harder than what you are using. Every Distribution/OS has a learning curve. I don’t know how many times I formatted my XP system, due to file corruption or some stupid ass virus that got to me through msn messenger.
I agree that windows is a click and go, and installs don’t differ from OS to OS, but if you were a non-biased windows user you would know,its not much different than a package manager on linux. Hell it can be worse, You talk about dependency issues in certain linux distributions, Windows xp is running with dependencies. Ever try to shut a service down and notice 4 things shutdown because they are somehow interconnected with that particular service? isn.t .NET required in most modern software? it doesnt even come pre-installed with windows, let alone hog ressources as much as java.
Linux has its flaws, the only true flaw I see with Linux is its exploding with distros and compatibility is low in terms of commercial software. I.E Photoshop (don’t get me started with “gimp”) The only reason im still using XP is gaming, honestly, I have no other reason to use it. ANd I hate handling dual boots, so since I use xp for gaming i just go all the way and use the rest of it. I don’t see the problem with compiling and installing. ./configure && make && make install ? is that the show stopper? If you run across software that doesn’t include an automatic config file, then just get the binary for your system. When Ubuntu Hoary comes out or the new debian comes , this xp install is gone, and leave xp on the scondary hardrive which 12 gb isnt a gaming harddrive, ut2004 and half life 2 and its gone, assuming I could install both lol.that partition will be used for anyone else who uses my computer for working in windows. on a side note, linspire is crap. Mandrake has dependency issues, its the only distro i’ve come across with those issues, hated it, went to slackware loved it, but I always missed my gaming library, I just need to get an nvidia card and then i’ll be able to switch lol.
call me a Linux fanboy or windows fanboy or whatever makes u feel superior. But other than windows is installs, its got nothing on linux, gaming will be a thing of the past for me eventually, the only thing windows can do for kids that are jobless are new computers. Seriously want to seriously mess up the pc and blame it on the hardware itself? windows can do that. and if u looked at the hardware requirements of longhorn theres more proof that windows is good for technological evolution since it requires so much for nothing. And by nothing i mean the OS with the same crap with just a few built-in features that would take so much processing cycles and ram , you’ll wonder why your system isnt handling longhorn the way it did with XP even if it looks and handles the same. If windows asked u during installation what kind of system do u want to setup? server,desktop,network…just loading stuff into the kernel for what u really need instead of bloating, wouldnt complain about this. Windows will always have the edge over linux. Not because its better but because of monopoly. Linus has been here for how long? same time as windows? longer or shorter? but they had enough time to make it work like windows if they wanted to. Why didn’t they? Why are most distros starting now? or the past couple of years, because of demand. And who are those people? windows users wanting to switch to something that doesnt require formatting every so often for a virus or spyware that cant be removed. Not to be an ass or anything. But a few who stood up and defended windows couldn’t even spell , no wonder commands are so hard for them lol.
If you wanted to install World of Warcraft, you first need to install Transgaming’s Point2Play, and then you’ll have your point-and-click installation.
What’s that? You’re a troll? Sorry, I though you had something to add to the discussion.
> take me as a n00b, but with all those commands, where does
> the program get installed? I like to know where things go…
> in windows, I usually just set the path while installing.
You do not set the path in Linux (with package managers) because it adds no value to know where things are installed. Why would you want to know this?
Deosn’t it make you feel uneasy too that you don’t know which sectors on the hard disk your files occupy?
I’m new in linux soft (mandrake), and I fell into dependecy hell… I tried to install giFT (I started trying 3 days ago ;(((). Can’t handle it anymore!! Now I’ll try that Gentoo… hope it will work fine.
What distro are you currently using? For Mandrake, you can get the giFT packages on the plf repository.
“I’m new in linux soft (mandrake), and I fell into dependecy hell… I tried to install giFT”.
1. Visit the “easyurpmi” website, and use the instructions found there to add the plf repositories.
2. use rpmdrake (“Software Installer” on the menus) or use “urpmi giFT” on the command line to install giFT.
It’s easy install apps in Linux and…
It’s easy install apps in Windows…
with differences, becouse they are differences OS.
what next?…
Es simple, hace 2 años o mas (ni idea de cuando se creo sistemas como apt-get) se podia decir que era dificil instalar programas en Linux. No solo en ese aspecto Linux viene luchando duro para ganar un espacio en las computadoras hogareñas y de trabajo.
Y ya lo logro con muchas cosas: la instalacion del sistema base, la instalacion de programas, la configuracion de hardware (no en todas las distros)…
Creo que hay cosas mas importantes, esto deberia ser un tema cerrado. Una persona que viene de windows, no esta pensando si le va a ser mas facil instalar un programa, esta pensando en que no quiere mas virus, spyware, cuelgues y comportamientos extraños.
Si alguien puede traducir a ingles lo que escribí en español, se lo agradecería.
Saludos
Argentina – Buenos Aires
I’ve used Linux off and on for about 8 years now. I’ve also used Windows during that time. There is just no legitimate claim that installing software on Linux is easier.
Here are some claims made by Linux users:
1. Installing software is a no brainer with apt
This is true for the most part. And it actually does work 95% of the time. What about the other 5%? What about newer versions of the software that haven’t been updated in the repository? What about software that’s not in the respository? I don’t know how many times I have looked for software that was not available via apt. I have NEVER had a problem installing a software package on Windows – just double click on the install file and it installs and runs.
2. All of the applications you’ll ever need are available on the CD from the distro vendor.
This one’s really ridiculous. What if I don’t like what’s on the CD? An operating system is supposed to be the basis for running software, not all of the extra software too. The operating system should support the loading and executing of programs, not provide everything you’ll ever need. That’s exactly what Microsoft is getting into trouble for in the first place – installing software that plays media, unzips file, checks for spyware, etc. with it’s OS? Personally, I love KDE. I think it’s a top notch desktop environment. When a new version comes out I want to upgrade. I don’t want somebody telling me that I shouldn’t be upgrading to the newest version.
3. Windows suffers from ‘DLL hell’.
I’ve installed probably 10,000 pieces of software in Windows and NEVER ran across DLL hell. People who use this excuse are just plain wrong.
Articles like these are just more examples of us kidding ourselves. The number 1 reason I use Windows 90% of the time is software installation. I don’t want to compile software to run it. I don’t want to chase down dependencies. I don’t want to resolve conflicts. I just want to be able to keep up with the latest versions of software easily. Currently Linux just does not do that. We really need a universal package manager like autopackage. We need the same functionality for software installation that is available on Windows. If we get this problem resolved that will be a major hurdle removed for Linux adoption.
What about newer versions of the software that haven’t been updated in the repository?
Simple: wait for the repository to be updated.
You’re really doing an unfair comparison. With commercial software, the “newer” version isn’t available until it’s commercially distributed. With open-source software, it’s “released early, released often”. The fact that you have access to the very latest, cutting-edge version is a bonus, a freedom which you don’t have on Windows. If you want to do a comparison with Windows, then you have to stay with supported software.
I don’t know how many times I have looked for software that was not available via apt.
Really? I can count on the fingers of one hand the times when I wasn’t able to find what I was looking for in the Mandrake repositories. So I didn’t always have the “very latest” version – so what? I had stable versions, that’s what counts.
The problem is that you’re approaching Linux with a Windows mindset, i.e. you feel the need to use the absolute latest version of an app available (because that’s what you’d do in Windows). In Linux, if the app isn’t available yet for your distro, then it probably means it’s not stable enough to use within that distro (which may have customized settings, etc.). If you absolutely need the latest versions all the time, then perhaps you should use Gentoo…
What if I don’t like what’s on the CD? An operating system is supposed to be the basis for running software, not all of the extra software too. The operating system should support the loading and executing of programs, not provide everything you’ll ever need.
That’s why they’re called “distributions”, because they’re not simply an OS. And usually it comes in multiple CDs. Apart from commercial apps, I’d be curious to hear what applications are missing from the Mandrake installation CDs…all the best apps are available on the CDs (or DVD) for the user’s convenience.
Again, you’re looking at this with the Windows mindset.
That’s exactly what Microsoft is getting into trouble for in the first place – installing software that plays media, unzips file, checks for spyware, etc. with it’s OS?
Actually that is incorrect. Mandrake (for example) bundles all kinds of programs with its distribution, however they’re not Mandrake programs – they’re programs made by a myriad of different developers. Microsoft, on the other hand, includes all kinds of Microsoft apps in Windows, in an attempt to shut out the competition. So your example, unfortunately, is completely wrong.
The number 1 reason I use Windows 90% of the time is software installation.
Do you really install software that often? If so, then I’m afraid to say that the Linux way is much better. Let’s say I need to update 12 different apps in Windows, and the same in Linux. In the first case, I’ll have to double-click on 12 different installers, and click “Next” multiple times for all of them. In Linux, meanwhile, I simply select all packages from the list, click “Install” and that’s it! It is both simpler, and a lot faster.
I’ve installed probably 10,000 pieces of software in Windows and NEVER ran across DLL hell.
Which version of Windows would that be? I’ve gotten DLL hell a couple of times myself – about the same number of times as I’ve had dependency problems in Linux.
If we get this problem resolved that will be a major hurdle removed for Linux adoption.
Nope. The only hurdles to Linux adoption are a) some ISVs (such as Adobe and Macromedia) not releasing their software for Linux, and b) Microsoft’s proprietary Office file formats. Installing software has nothing to do with it.
I have NEVER had a problem installing a software package on Windows – just double click on the install file and it installs and runs.
True,but first you have to find something you want to install.MS doesn’t have a repository of more than 16000 apps on it’s websites do they?
Most of the apps you download for windows don’t have a signature!How will you know nobody infected the download(s).
>”Simple: wait for the repository to be updated.”
What if OS distro vendor promotes competing product? How ironic that people are willing to give all fredoms they promote (freedom to run software you want), and don’t even realize it.
No worry: Big Brother cares about you. Software that is not in repository does not exist.
Are you on crack?
“It is only messy if you DON’T use your distribution repositories.”
The one in the Mandrake respository is the exact same one one the Firefox site. Please check your facts you would appear more credible.
I love this one from you.
“I think you have got a bad case of “proprietary windows-think” here”
You accuse me of something that is utterly false. Which you would have known had you read what I wrote. That said, you make that stupid comment after saying “It is only messy if you DON’T use your distribution repositories.” Thats mighty MSish of you. I bet you would be screaming to everyone you know if MS made such an assertion that if you don’t come to MS you will have messy installations. And then you quantify your stupid comment with this gem
“it won’t work at all well for the similar reasons that it is not a good idea to get firefox directly from the firefox website. Get it from the repositories of your own distribution and there will be no trouble whatsoever.” Please before you accuse me of “”I think you have got a bad case of “proprietary windows-think” here” don’t follow it up with comments that suggest that that if I don’t use my distro repository I am in for doom and gloom.
“Pfft. Utter rubbish. Less than 5% of the programs anyone might install on a Windows machine would start the installation process from the “Add/Remove Programs” Control Panel applet. In what fantasy world does this become a “single place to install” ? ”
I have looked about the web and can’t find one single page to support what your opinion on Add/Remove programs. Did I not say that “its lacking” then you want to comment on my reading comprehension skills. I could go into the fact that every version of Windows since 95 has had add/remove programs and that there is no commonality between many Linux distro on installation but then I would be accused of something MSish.
“Synaptic is right there on the Menus ”
It nowhere to be found on Mandrake 10 unless you went somewhere downloaded it and installed it yourself. SO this may be the case with your distribution but not mine. So I decided to run a little test. I brought my trusty Dell C840 in from my car downloaded Ubuntu 5.04 (Hoary Hedgehog) which is Debian based. Nice distribution btw (using it as I type this). And decided to look for Synaptic Package Manager. This is where is it if your accessing it from Gnome. System>Administration>Synaptic Package Manager then login as root. Now in Windows 2000 Start>Settings>Control Panel>Add/Remove Programs runas Administrator
it took about 5 seconds in each scenario.
So I searched for Java hooray its right there oh wait thats not Suns Java thats something else. So I go configure Synaptic to look at more respositories and it still didn’t show up. Now in all of this time I could (and did) just go to Sun, download and install Java. Still had to configure Firefox. SO in this case Synaptic did nothing for me. The same thing occured when trying to install Adobe Acrobat, Yahoo Messenger and LICQ. However XmmS was right there and installed properly.
I am very confident in saying that you have made up your mind that Linux apt-get or perhaps Linux itself is somehow superior to other OS’s and that you are most likely a zealot without his facts in order. Your tripe may work better on someone with a little less common sense than I.
What if OS distro vendor promotes competing product? How ironic that people are willing to give all fredoms they promote (freedom to run software you want), and don’t even realize it.
I’m sorry, but I don’t understand what you’re trying to say. Can you rephrase that?
No worry: Big Brother cares about you. Software that is not in repository does not exist.
Quit being so melodramatic. If software isn’t in the repositories, then you can get usually get it from the developer’s site (and complain to the developer if he doesn’t have installable packages). However, the Debian and Mandrake repositories are huge. I’ve rarely been unable to find what I need in the Mandrake repository.
I know you’ve got an anti-Linux agenda, but could you give us specific examples of quality open-source programs (more than one, please) that aren’t available on the Mandrake repositories? Because you anti-Linux posters are very good at giving hypothetical examples, but when it comes to providing anything concrete, you just stop responding.
The one in the Mandrake respository is the exact same one one the Firefox site. Please check your facts you would appear more credible.
It’s the same program but it doesn’t get installed the same way. You may have missing menu entries. Also, you can’t conveniently uninstall it using the package manager, and if you later install the package you might have conflicting file. The Autopackage crew is working to solve this (there’s a discussion on the Mandrake Cooker list on how to help make this possible, by installing Autopackages in /opt, for example), however that’s still a work in progress.
So, no, installing from the official repository and using the downloadable installer from the Firefox site is not the same. I think you should check your facts to appear more credible.
Not to mention the fact that starting a post with “Are you on crack?” makes you look quite immature.
I have looked about the web and can’t find one single page to support what your opinion on Add/Remove programs.
Let me put it this way: can you install Photoshop using the Add/Remove Programs control panel? Or, if we want to stay with F/OSS apps, can you install Gimp from the Add/Remove Programs control panel? I think that was the original poster’s point, which you seem to have missed entirely.
“Synaptic is right there on the Menus ”
It nowhere to be found on Mandrake 10 unless you went somewhere downloaded it and installed it yourself.
Synaptic is the Debian (and Debian-related distros) tool. For Mandrake, you’ll want to use Rpmdrake. And it is right there in the menus (and the Mandrake Control Center).
“So, no, installing from the official repository and using the downloadable installer from the Firefox site is not the same. I think you should check your facts to appear more credible. ”
I just did and that did not happen. So I am quite confident in what I said was indeed fact. But it should work that way no matter where you get it from.
“Not to mention the fact that starting a post with “Are you on crack?” makes you look quite immature.”
Thanks for your input. I shall take it under advisement and discard.
“I think that was the original poster’s point, which you seem to have missed entirely”
Point wasn’t missed at all I just think the point was wrong.
“Synaptic is the Debian (and Debian-related distros) tool. For Mandrake, you’ll want to use Rpmdrake. And it is right there in the menus (and the Mandrake Control Center).”
rpmdrake like apt-get is a great idea. I said that in my other post which you have not seem to have read. But there is the problem. I need debian for this or Mandrake for that or something else for something else. There is no commonality. I don’t want to apt-get software I want to INSTALL it. I don’t want to rpmdrake software I want to INSTALL it. Most computer users INSTALL software WIndows, Linux Mac etc. I am just saying the proces is neither as soom as the author of this article would lead you to believe. But I don’t think you seem to understand that either.
[i]So I searched for Java hooray its right there oh wait thats not Suns Java thats something else. So I go configure Synaptic to look at more respositories and it still didn’t show up. Now in all of this time I could (and did) just go to Sun, download and install Java.[/i}
Someone who knows for sure he/she needs java has a special purpose for it,and doesn’t per see need to rely solely on a package manager such as “apt-get” or “emerge”.In my opinion they are great starting points.Why do i think they are,quite simple:Some distros who amazingly (or not) have an outstanding package manager seem to have an extensive online documentation avaible to anyone who wants to get something done seriously.Installing software should be quick and reliable so everybody can work with the specific app as soon as possible.A lot of good distro specific documentation can assume the install is been taken care off:” apt-get install alsa-headers” or “emerge alsa-hearders alsa-driver” ,simple quick and dirty.
Although i like to use windows now and than for specific tasks with IDA pro, i can save a lot of time by installing the basic apps needed with an package manager like the two i mentioned.No more searching on the internet,no registration,no need for turning on java-script and/or cookies, no bad rendered sites,no more digging through links
just “emerge mythtv-frontend” or “emerge gdb” and thats it.
A lot mention the gaming platform quality of windows.
Ever tried to download patches or additional option or files for those games?Makes you want to have a package manager and quickly “emerge etpatch2.60” from a nearby mirror.Well my gaming days are fortunately long gone.
I just did and that did not happen.
Are you saying that you can install Firefox from the website installer, and that you can then uninstall Firefox using the package manager? I find that highly unlikely. As far as the menu entry goes, if you already had one then installing from the web site is not going to remove it. What you’d have to do is install it from the website on a vanilla system that doesn’t have Firefox already installed, and then see if there’s a menu entry. There might be, since menu methods are being standardized, but then again there might not.
In any case, if you want to use the package manager to manage your installed software, then you should not install software from other sources.
But it should work that way no matter where you get it from.
That is what autopackage is trying to achieve. Of course, it would be simpler if there was only one Linux distro, i.e. a monopoly situation. But since those are a Bad Thing, this alternative is better. In any case, all the software I want is on the Mandrake repositories. If you have specific examples of software that’s missing from those, I’d be curious to hear it – otherwise, as I’ve said to Russian Guy, it’s all hypothetical situations which are not grounded in reality.
Thanks for your input. I shall take it under advisement and discard.
It’s just a matter of keeping a civil tone for this discussion. It just makes your arguments more credible.
Point wasn’t missed at all I just think the point was wrong.
As I understand it, the point was correct. You can’t just install stuff from repositories (or anywhere else on the Internet, for that matter) using the Add/Remove Program control panel. Furthermore, since you didn’t present any counter-arguments to the contrary, the point still stands.
Simply saying it isn’t true isn’t sufficient. You’ve got to say why.
rpmdrake like apt-get is a great idea. I said that in my other post which you have not seem to have read.
Correct, I did not. But whether you think they’re a great idea or not is irrelevant. The fact is that in this comment and others you clearly seem to indicate that they’re inadequate, while I argue that you’ll only have problems if you misuse them.
But there is the problem. I need debian for this or Mandrake for that or something else for something else.
No you don’t. If you run Mandrake, you should only need the Mandrake repositories, and then perhaps use standalone installers for those very few programs that aren’t in the repositories (or, in a worse-case scenario, compile from source and use checkinstall so they’re registered in the package manager database). In four years of using Linux, I’ve never installed a Debian package on my Mandrake install. That just sounds like a bad idea.
I don’t want to apt-get software I want to INSTALL it. I don’t want to rpmdrake software I want to INSTALL it.
You’re playing on words here. When you use rpmdrake or apt-get to get a piece of software, you are in fact installing it. So what you just said makes no sense at all, except if you view the whole process from a purely Windows point of view.
Most computer users INSTALL software WIndows, Linux Mac etc.
And this is what you do when you use rpmdrake. For the record, Mac users often don’t use the Windows-like point-and-click installers. They drag the program in the applications folder, and that’s it. A little bit like what the Klik guys are doing.
http://klik.berlios.de/
I’m sorry, but you can’t get any simpler than this.
I am just saying the proces is neither as soom as the author of this article would lead you to believe.
No, in fact it’s simpler than what the other described, because he focussed on command-line installation, and left out GUI package managers like rpmdrake, or the even simpler interfaces such as Click’N’Run for Linspire and the aforementioned Klik.
But I don’t think you seem to understand that either.
Don’t be so arrogant, especially when you don’t seem to have any arguments to back your assertions. I understand perfectly what you’re trying to say, I just don’t agree with it and I’ve tried to demonstrate why I think you’re wrong.
Again, tell me which is simpler and faster: installing/updating 12 different programs in Windows, or installing/updating 12 different applications using rpmdrake?
I don’t want to apt-get software I want to INSTALL it. I don’t want to rpmdrake software I want to INSTALL it. Most computer users INSTALL software WIndows, Linux Mac etc. I am just saying the proces is neither as soom as the author of this article would lead you to believe. But I don’t think you seem to understand that either.
You can either install the software with apt-get( Debian,binairy) or compile the app from source.Or you could use emerge (Gentoo) which allways downloads the source and compiles it according to your arch needs and in the end you have your mozilla-firefox or whatever app installed.
Either way it’s not difficult for an average savvy windows user to use a package manager like apt-get or emerge in order to install need3ed apps.More than enough can be installed from most repositories,for free!
A beginning windows user gets with his PC a lot of software bundled.PC is plug and play ready.Perhaps it’s enough.Some are a little more adventurous and or are a little more demanding and start looking for more software.They have to use the net more in order to find specific apps as the average Linux user,or does wallmart,dell,gateway have repositories?,i guess not.He or she might go to zdnet and start searching through the lists (repository).
The very start of this article shows that in fact linux software installations have a long way to go. When it takes you SEVERAL paragraphs just to list a bunch of the different ways you can do it, there’s the first problem. There should be ONE COMMON WAY among ALL distributions. And there is no reason it can’t be done if someone had the knowledge and skill to write it.
Windows DOES win the installation battle hands down (unless you’ve got OSX … that’s just an awesome way to install apps. Period. Why can’t THAT be done with linux? Both OS’s are unix-based!!). And I don’t say that as a linux zealot, although I’ve been running my home computer on linux 100% of the time for a couple of years now. And I don’t say it as a M$ fanboy either … else why the heck would I be a full-time linux user? I say this as a user of both systems between home and work. And both systems have strengths, both have weaknesses. With Windows, the weakness is the insecurity of the OS, with Linux the only real weakness are the lack of SOME drivers (many vendors are finally starting to play nice though) and the lack of SOME programs from the Windows and Mac camps. But now that studies are starting to show linux use surpassing Macs, I only wonder when the argument that there aren’t enough users to support a port will wear thin? If you ask me, it already has.
Though it is 15 steps in windows, those steps probably take a second each, especially with a broadband connection, i myself experienced that dependency hell problem using linux, and it is terrible having to do so much to get one thing working. It takes less time to install software and reboot in MS.
Talk about easy, have you tried Linspire (5). The software library has a gui index and text and you click and load the application. They call it CNR I call it easy.
Kever
Alot of people that complain about dependency hell are using the rpm based distributions, ie: Mandrake,Suse,redhat,fedora.
Now people will say yeah, if you don’t download a mandrake rpm with signature you’ll most likely get dependency hell. That’s half the truth. Ati’s drivers always give u a dependency issue even though u really dont need them. RPM’s are the problem. For those who are running or had an rpm-based distro and switched back to windows because you were annoyed. Try using something like Debian or slackwate or their user friendly counterparts that use .tgz(slackware) or .deb (debian based binary.) No issues with Dependency whatsoever unless of a broken app, which n that case is the fault of the developer and not that of the package manager.
As for someone who asked, whats easier, 10 linux installs or 10 windows installs. The answer differs, if you’re using source, windows, if you’re using a package manager which all linuc distros do, Linux.
See there is no such thing as an absolute one, every linux distro is different and so will the install methods. Windows is just windows. if u were to wipe oit all other distros and put it up against Debian…Linux wins in a heartbeat. People switch to linux thinking its windows with better security and stability.
No it’s not windows, it doesn’t work like windows and it doesn’t use windows exectuables. Mac is different and the install method is different, If everything was like windows, double click installs…it would suck. Same thing on different platform. it’s what makes the OS unique. Why do you care if every linux distro has a different install method, its not like you’re going to run into all of them.Unless you have partitions of every single distribution. Sorry that Linux didnt provide a windows experience for you. But its not windows, thats what many people fail to see. if windows works for you, then enjoy, but overall I prefer Linux installs,compiling isnt bad either, if the program isnt running u know you screwed up, in windows is either a corrupt install or just badly configured, Unless the source is bad, which is unlikely, you get no errors if configured properly in Linux. the little apps I compile it to my likings, the big apps that I know is going to be a bitch to compile,(in terms of amount of time its going to take) I let binary do the work.
Before you say it’s “rediculous” to think that Linux installs could be easier than Windows software installation, take some time to actually learn what a package manager is and how it works.
Yes, there are several different package management systems, but you only deal with the one that’s designed for that distribution. The existence of yum, urpmi, rpmdrake, emerge, etc. is totally irrelevant when you’re using Debian Linux: you’re only going to be using the APT system. You can use the APT system with command-line utilities such as apt-get, apt-cache, apt-show-versions, and other commands, or you can use a GUI like Synaptic, or a console front end like aptitude. These are all just front ends to the APT system.
Let me try — though it may be a wasted effort — to address some misinformation. I’ll stick to APT. Other package managers should work similarly.
1) MYTH: Linux software installation doesn’t handle dependencies. TRUTH: If you’re using APT, dependencies are automatically handled for you
2) MYTH: You have to create your own shortcuts. Truth: APT creates shortcuts for you. Each package registers a shortcut with the Debian menu system. Install the package, you get the menu option. Automatically.
3) MYTH: You have to know the exact name of the program. Truth: If you use a GUI like Synaptic or Aptitude, you select the package from a list. If you use the command line, then you have to provide the exact name. But you don’t have to just KNOW it: you can look it up. The ‘apt-cache search’ command will search package descriptions and names for any word or phrase you would like. Use ‘apt-cache show <packagename>’ on package you’re interested in to see the entire description. Or just use the GUI, where it’s done for you.
4) MYTH: You have to have a high-speed connection to use APT. Truth: APT is designed for and works best with high-speed internet connections, but you can also use it with CD-ROM’s. If you want to install something huge, like Open Office, get a CD-ROM. For day-to-day maintenance, a dial-up internet connection works fine.
5) MYTH: Software installation has to be point-and-click. Truth: Point-and-click is nice, but the reason people still use the command line tools is because they’re honestly faster. If installing software is something you do often, it may well be worth your while to learn how to use apt-cache search and apt-cache show to find just the right package, then apt-get install to install it. If you rarely have to install new software, then just stick to the nice GUI’s and be done with it.
6) MYTH: You give up freedom by using a package manager. Truth: By using a package manager, you’re giving up complexity. The whole point is to let the package manager handle the details for you of putting the executables in the usual place, the libraries in the usual place, the documentation in the usual place, setting up any appropriate menus, etc. So why doesn’t this mean you’re losing freedom? Because no one ever said that you HAD to use the package manager! We’re talking about open source here. You have the source code: you can always compile it yourself and put all the different pieces exactly where you want. But very few people want to do that unless they have very special needs. And if your needs are that special, Windows installers are equally useless to you.
7) MYTH: If it’s not in the repository already, you can’t install it. Truth: Most common programs are in the repository already, and already customized to that distribution. But if you have to have a program that is NOT in the repository, APT doesn’t prevent you from using it. 95% of the software you need is already in the repository ready to install. Those that are not, you’ll just have to install separately. Do you want Sun’s official Java package? Hunt it down, download it, and follow Sun’s instructions. Just like you would do in Windows. Do you need some small utility that hasn’t been packaged for Debian? You can either try to find an RPM and convert it to a .deb file with alien, or you can just download and compile the utility. APT doesn’t put any programs at all in the /usr/local directory. Put anything not handled by the package system in there, and APT will never mess with it. Most software will either install into ‘/usr/local by default, or will let you pass ‘–prefix=/usr/local’ to the configure command before compiling.
The package manager is your friend. Use it often, get used to it, and installing programs in Windows will seem just so … backwards.
Sorry, but ….
You said:
> There should be ONE COMMON WAY among ALL distributions
I say:
Why? Does Debian have to solve the problem identically with Mandrake before Debian’s solution is acceptable? As long as the distribution you’re using has a consistent package management system, who cares that other distributions take their own approach? If you’re not using Mandrake’s distribution, is it relevant that Mandrake does it differently?
If you’re concerned about commercial software vendors being able to release one installer for all Linux versions, that can be dealt with by making sure you use a distribution complying the the Linux Standard Base. That should solve the software compatibility issues.
You pretty much have to go Xandros or Linspire (with the former having the advantage of no paid yearly subscription).
1) Click X-Launch – select Xandros Networks
2) Either use Search to Find what you want or browse down the application tree on the left
3) Select Package
4) Click on Install Button {will apply for either 1 or several packages}
5) Confirm
6) Click Done.
-> Elapsed Time = depends, of course, on size and qty of packages selected.
=>> Once completed all packages have icons in their respective sub-categories.
No Fuss, No Muss – even Windows cannot compare.
Enjoy the Freedom, Feel the Power. Xandros 2.0 / 3.0
LB.
To be honest, why compare windoze to linux at all. Theres a reason why we dont want windoze users on linux. Because theres enuff noobs as is.
Plus if we convince windows users to switch, how are we gonna host all those botnets, and what purposes would there be to write windoze virii and trojans. Its much more fun to leave things as they are.
Windows for the dumbasses of the world, Linux for the Pros.
“No, in windows 2000 or newer, there is no need to reboot the computer after installing 99% of all of the applications.”
Kindly show a listing of the 99% of all of the applications that can be installed without a reboot in Windows 2000 or newer?…
Note: No flame intended, but mind this;
Working in an all-windows environment with over 200 machines to maintain on a daily basis gives proof that completely wipes the statement 99% of all programs can be installed without requiring a reboot off the table. In fact, there’s even programs that FORCE an immediate reboot without even asking the user if it’s OK or not to do so (Based on actual experience). A most pleasing effect if you happen to be working directly on your server machine, which unfortunately is required sometimes!. Am I missing something? I haven’t had to reboot any Linux machine I have had under my fingers before after installing software. It just works.
Like Err stated, the reboots in Windows mostly just boil down to the creator of the installer covering their own ass, after all, (Example) if you design something and let the user install it and it FAILS because it didn’t fully register without a reboot, the user will call you and blame YOUR work. Fact: 99 out of 100 times anything you install from Microsoft will require a reboot. Especially anything related to drivers, DLL changes, Registry changes, or hardware changes* (*Yes, that happens. Example would be a simple USB mass storage device entering the system, such as an USB pen drive. Happened to me 5 times on 3 different systems so far, even when the device was supposedly already ‘installed’.)
Worst I get in Linux is not being able to re-read a floppy disk or an USB storage device after removing it and plugging it back into the system, simply remounting fixes that ofcourse.
Installing software in Windows has it’s benefits and drawbacks.
Installing software in Linux has it’s benefits and drawbacks.
What makes the difference? No two computer systems are alike. It’s like 2 drops of water, it’s still H2O, but they will never look alike, taste alike, have the same temperature, etc.
You can’t expect them to be equal, and this is why
You still can’t really compare Windows with Linux and vice-versa. Each user’s experience will always be different. Luckily things seem to be improving though, Microsoft is learning (late, but still) and Linux is improving vastly in many ways. Time will tell a better comparison.
The first stupid part about this article is that it assumes the user, who happens to be having some difficulty INSTALLING software, somehow managed to get “lunix” installed to begin with. M$ has made no effort to make their install process easy, because they don’t have to. Windows comes with computers, so who cares? Especially those who would need an easier method to install software. Even still, when their WinXP, etc. install stalls out, they’ll probably just have someone to come in and fix it for them. I know about that…it happens.
I agree with the idea that anyone with half a brain can type all those arcane commands, which is how most people view typing anything. But, certainly anyone can click “Next >” a billion times, and have fewer questions. Hey, you may only need a quarter of a brain for that!
Then, as someone mentioned, you have to KNOW what does what with this linux crap. I, as an average user is inclined to believe, could care less which version or application does what I want it to. I would just want software to do a TASK, especially if it has an easy to remember trade name that makes it old and familiar, sort of like “band-aid” or “kleenex” are generic terms.
apt-get install “software that manages music in a library” … please
emerge “photo album program”
Now how easy is it to install?
Windows is for idiots, and can be for power users. Linux is for power users. Both have crufty user interfaces at best (what the hell is with all those links in the start-type menu?)
All can see a key difference:
To Do in Linux – TYPE
To Do in Windows – CLICK
All can see a key difference:
To Do in Linux – TYPE
To Do in Windows – CLICK
Correction:
To Do in Linux – CLICK OR TYPE
To Do in Windows – CLICK
To get an office package for Windows you can buy one at the megastore when you stop to pickup milk, take it home, put the CD in your drive, enter a code out of the package (if asked) and shortly later be up and running. No downloads. No command prompt codes. No worries about whether it needed to uninstall anything or reboot (these days) or close down everything else (I have never done this since Win 3.1 and haven’t had a single problem). How much simpler can you really get than sticking a CD in the drive and clicking “okay”?
Alternately, click on OpenOffice.org in your bookmarks, click to download the latest release as an exe and when asked by your browser tell it you want to run the file after it’s downloaded. Once again… no command lines, no shutting things down or rebooting anything. Not exactly the picture that was painted in the original post.
Maybe you should look at it the other way and see how you would install Visio on both systems. The Win side you stick in the CD, it autoruns, you click in a code and it’s there. The Linux side… hmmm how many steps are there to getting Wine to work correctly before you make an attempt to “try” to install it? Certainly not a very favorable comparison for Linux, is it?
Installation of packages is MUCH better on Linux than it used to be but this is one area where we need to do some work if we want to appeal to Windows users or mass-market types in general. I know it’s easy to do but expecting anybody to actually type anything into a command line these days is really a bit behind the times compared to what they are used to and a lot of people will never take Linux seriously as an alternative if you try to set them back 15 or 20 years to using a command prompt.