At its BrainShare conference, the company says its Novell Linux Desktop 10 will include a new desktop search technology, named Beagle, along with a technology for rendering the desktop using the GPU.
Novell Says Its Next Linux Desktop Will Surpass Windows
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Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
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Isn’t it a bit annoying how loosely this was thrown together surpass windows how, can we be a bit more specific?
It already surpasses Windows, but you have to know how to use the command line. It has surpassed Windows for at least two years already. I guess that they are talking about people that just know how to point and click the mouse.
Mono finally has an X86 binary installer as of Mar 10/05. That makes Mono usable finally. Novell is shaping up.
SO, they’re waiting on Gnome 2.12. Good timing, they can test beagle in SLD9.3 while they(among others) work on cairo. I’ll buy it.
I’m glad Novell is really taking linux seriously.
Great. Another person that doesn’t understand what WinFS is (and therefore why MS is having such a hard time getting it out). It isn’t just file metadata search. Windows already has that. With MSN search it has it somewhat better. In Longhorn it’ll have it too without WinFS.
I should think someone in his position would know better. Actually, I bet he does.
everything but beagle will reach fedora and ubuntu and mandrake, too, but what about this new x-server this article talks about?
is it x.org or is novell really developing their own?
I’ll take Nat’s insight over yours any day.
WinFS isn’t anything. It doesn’t exist. I’ve been saying this all along. Until it’s released, it doesn’t count….
Read the article, it’s more of the same…. Linux trying to be like Windows / OS X….. annoying.
is it x.org or is novell really developing their own?
Although I can’t say for sure, Novell hired a guy that was working on Xgl. Perhaps it will be ready as soon as they say?
About the X-server issue. I don’t know if they are working on a server BUT Gnome 2.12 is slated for a September release, and it is to be used like OSX (everything is rendered with OpenGL) via cairo. If they are going for a yearly release then it would be November just long enough after the release to do some major testing. Like I said before, good timing.
is it x.org or is novell really developing their own?
I believe that they are talking about is xgl, which is an x-server that runs on OpenGL. You can read more here:
http://lists.freedesktop.org/pipermail/xorg/2004-November/004358.ht…
and in Nat Friedman’s blog:
http://nat.org/2005/february/#9-February-2005
As for WinFS, it just seems to be in permanent beta, it was supposed to come out with NT or W2K wasn’t it?. Obviously it’s a lot harder to actually deliver than to sell.
The one that really interests me is Beagle. Because that means they re going to include Mono. Which could provoke all manner of interesting licensing/patent issues.
Virtual desktops on rotating cubes, ‘like mac os x’, desktop GPL, etc.. It would be nice to see some new stuff rather than what everyone else has done (OS X), or is doing (Longhorn).
It would be nice to see some new stuff rather than what everyone else has done (OS X), or is doing (Longhorn)
What would you like to see?
If you don’t tell anyone or get up and do it yourself it probably ain’t gonna happen except by chance.
But how about some applications – you know, things like Adobe, Macromedia, 4D etc. etc. I want the ability to be able to go down the road and simply purchase the software I want, off the shelf, by simply going to a Linux section and making a decision – the day that is made possible, will be the day Linux can go from a niche player to a mainstream operating system for the desktop.
“But how about some applications – you know, things like Adobe, Macromedia, 4D etc. etc. I want the ability to be able to go down the road and simply purchase the software I want, off the shelf,”
if you want proprietary software developers to develop products for Linux ask them that instead of posting off topic stuff on a Novell Linux discussion
Software delivery is becoming more and more internet based. Even MS have admitted as much recently.
http://news.com.com/Microsoft+gets+outside+the+box+with+software/21…
Linux and the *BSD’s are already there. Time to let go of the box…
As for Adobe, Macromedia & all, give it time. They can only ignore a potential market for so long…or as a famous kiwi put it: “It won’t heppen overnight, but it will heppen” 😉
So my GPU gets noisier even if I don’t play any game ? 🙁
I know, eye candy is everything, it helps to distract people from the work.
Sorry to say this but you can’t surpass Windows with GNOME as Desktop.
1.Why not?
2.What does it lack to surpass Windows?
3.Does it need to surpass it or offer a different alternative?
> 1.Why not?
The short and probably most offensive answer would be ‘GNOME is broken’. I can go into details here but this would result in another 200 reply rant that I would like to avoid if possible. The reasons for GNOME not being able to do competition with Microsoft Windows is a) politics of the GNOME core development team, b) the badly designed framework that GNOME sits on, c) the lack of providing usable applications build ontop of this framework. It might be enough for the regular Linux freak but it’s not really enough for corporate needs (which is just marketing talk anyways).
> 2.What does it lack to surpass Windows?
a) a good framework,
b) good and powerful applications,
c) consistency across applications,
d) integration across applications,
e) faster development to fix what really needs to get fixed,
f) a team of people doing quality assurance,
g) reliability within the applications,
h) reliability of the framework (e.g. gnome-vfs) as one example,
i) better communication of the userbase and their demands
and many more.
> 3.Does it need to surpass it or offer a different alternative?
The question is! Is GNOME an alternative ? KDE would be a real alternative here because it offers a lot of usable applications for science, communication, IT, technology, electronics, education and so on.
I’d really like to tell you more but this would require you to understand the technology behind GNOME a bit better, this means not just being able to install some stuff and style it with fancy icons. We need to dive deeper into the whole architecture of GNOME. In my opinion the NOVELL people are doing a huge mistake in following the path with GNOME here but at the end it’s not my business at all – and after all it’s just politics too.
You must work at Microsoft, knowing Windows source code and everything.
Still having a hard time accepting that your gonme fork didn’t work out?
And btw., simply stating that Gnome is broken without backing it up still isn’t a very convincing argument, though it is an improvement over your previous one, which consisted merely of *lol*.
“But how about some applications – you know, things like Adobe, Macromedia, 4D etc. etc. I want the ability to be able to go down the road and simply purchase the software I want, off the shelf,”
if you want proprietary software developers to develop products for Linux ask them that instead of posting off topic stuff on a Novell Linux discussion
And how is this off topic? I am a customer, and thanks to Novells arrogance for failing to bring the applications I want to their platform, they’ve lost a customer; I know many customers who would be quite happy to throw some money at Novell. Since they don’t consider mine or anyone elses money “worthy of their attention” then so be it – Apple can be happy to know that they’ve got a customer for the next four years.
First:
Isn’t this a bit pathetic?
“NLD 10 will surpass Windows”
Doesn’t this mean that NLD 9 is actually worse than Windows(I don’t think it is…But they really make it sound like so…)
RE: to all who says “Mac OSX does that, even Windows3.11 had tat”: Who cares? Beagle is a good tool, and it will be useful…Xgl is a neat idea, if it works out, it will be awesome…
RE: to the guy who says GNOME sucks
KDE may(does) include better technology than GNOME, but it scares away closed-source commercial applications(due to Qt’s double-licence). Novell does the right thing supporting GNOME.
I obviously missed something, so thank you for bringing me up to date.
One further question though, could you provide me some links as to exactly when Nove took over the development of Adobe, Macromedia, 4D etc. etc. and made the decision not to develop these applications for their own platfom?
Thanks in advance.
“KDE may(does) include better technology than GNOME, but it scares away closed-source commercial applications(due to Qt’s double-licence). Novell does the right thing supporting GNOME.”
You are so right on this one. I mean, just look at the pletora of closed-source commercial applications written with gtk out there and the nearly total lack of closed-source commercial applications written with Qt.
Oh, wait…
Well, the point is that:There will never be commercial or closed-source applications for KDE.
Why do you think that Adobe acrobat 7 is GTK-based?
Why do you think that Nero is doing a linux port with GTK?
> You are so right on this one. I mean, just look at the
> pletora of closed-source commercial applications written
> with gtk out there and the nearly total lack of
> closed-source commercial applications written with Qt.
Which of course is the half truth.
a) when someone writes closed source applications for GNOME then everyone cries up and call them a traitor or someone who should f*c* o*f because he/she hasn’t understand the meaning of open source.
b) people usually reject using closed source applications if there are open source alternatives.
I know a lot of people if not everyone who uses open source because they want the stuff to be open sourced to have control over it, regardless if they are willing or able to contribute it. As soon as it comes to closed source stuff (look at the rants about JAVA) everyone (your likes) start to rant off how evil SUN is for not releasing it open source. But yet people like yours turn the coin and use the commercial closed source stuff available for GTK+ as some sort of ‘look here, good companies are backing us’. But in reality you dont even use their apps. It’s just some marketing stuff to make people believe in you and how great and l33t you are.
“Well, the point is that:There will never be commercial or closed-source applications for KDE.”
Why is that the point? How can you support this claim when there are lots and lots of commercial, closed-source apps written with Qt out there?
“Why do you think that Adobe acrobat 7 is GTK-based?”
I don’t know, ask Adobe. But I would suspect that the few dollars they would have to pay for Qt aren’t the reason. Btw., why do you think that there are other Adobe products out there using Qt?
“Why do you think that Nero is doing a linux port with GTK?”
Again, I don’t think the few bucks they would have had to pay for Qt were too much for Nero. Btw., the used large parts of gcombust, so that may be a reason and this may also explain why it is written in plain old and ugly gtk1.
> Why do you think that Adobe acrobat 7 is GTK-based?
> Why do you think that Nero is doing a linux port with GTK?
Needless to mention that KPDF (from KDE 3.4) as well as K3B surpasses both named commercial applications for miles. Everything remains is just the branding of the companies. What has a name on Windows doesn’t necessarily need to have a name within the open source world.
What exactly did I do to warrant a personal attack? Was it mentioning that goneme is goneforgood now?
Anyway, do you really think that the reason Adobe isn’t porting its programs to linux is due to some posters on /. and osnews possibly making negative comments about closed source software? You really should think again.
Thank you for your answers.
If it is the case that Gnome has all these faults why are Novell and Sun offering desktops based on Gnome?
I’ll be honest from the start. I am a Gnome user (note: user not bigot). I take it you are a KDE user? Apologies if my assumption is wrong.
I would be the first to admit that Gnome needs to improve in quite a few areas, but your assertion that ‘Gnome is broken’ is I believe, quite a bit wide of the mark. Because as far as I’m concerned, if it didn’t work. I would not use it. And I don’t suppose many other people would either.
I can’t comment on KDE because I have not used it for a long time (last time I used it was 1.1.2 or something like that),
when was the last time you used Gnome? I am not trying to stir up a fight (I can never see the point) but I believe that to make valid accurate comment you (not you personally) need to have relevant up-to-date information. Now I believe that your points are in themselves valid, but nowhere near as grave as you paint.
Like I said. If it was as bad as you say noone would use it. Politics or not.
I never said that KPDF and K3B are worse than their closed source counterparts. I haven’t used KPDF(3.4) yet but i do think that K3B is an awesome program…
Anyway, that was not my point..
> Anyway, do you really think that the reason Adobe isn’t
> porting its programs to linux is due to some posters on /.
> and osnews possibly making negative comments about closed
> source software?
I really don’t care if Adobe ports anything to Linux or not or if they release/port anything to open source or not since I am able to find good and usable open source alternatives already. My main concern here had to do with me questioning Novells decision to take GNOME as the desktop that they say that it surpasses Windows with the next upcoming release.
This is pure bullshit because Windows is more than just a Desktop with some shabby apps. Windows is an entire operating system a truly different dimension of code and stuff we need to take into consideration and talk about. But this doesn’t mean that I am a supporter of Windows – I just like to mention the dimensions that people like you seem to ignore.
For the open source sector I think that KDE makes the better Desktop solution for users, customers and enterprise. This doesn’t mean that KDE is perfect as it is right now – no it requires a lot of work as well but the framework that KDE currently offers is by far supperior of what GNOME offers. This is nothing that I need to explain in lengthy comments that you will ignore anyways or other GNOME fanboys it’s simply a fact that it is how I say it.
For GNOME to seriously catch up with KDE it will take years and a lot more activity and code – not to mention to be able to catch up with Windows which is another dimension of its own.
If Microsoft said “next year, we’ll surpass ” something, then everyone would laugh it off and call it marketing babble. When an eminent Linux guru (and I do resepect for Nat) says that, everyone believes him and say, “Look! Linux is the best.”
So, using the same blunt knife to cut through all marketing speak, regardless of source: I’ll believe it when I see it. For now, it amounts to nothing more than a promise that can easily be broken.
And Novell would help the world of Linux the most if they invent a universal software installer. The weight of software distribution should go on the software authors, not the OS authors (with their software repositories) . Quite frankly, both Windows and OSX are years ahead of Linux in that respect.
Linux was meant to be free and open-source. However, suddenly because big names are entering linux, we all want to support closed source linux applications. So much so that we claim company shy of KDE/Qt because it forces them to either pay license fee for Qt or keep their apps open-source. What wrong with that? Why do they get paid something for nothing?
Anyway, my point is not for the companies. They will always be so. But definitely, to make a point, I feel the open-source community has lost its soul and GNOME must, knowingly or unknowingly, carry this burden.
I feel the best way would be for the GTK developers to change their license to force open-source apps only.
Risking here as being too melodramatic, I feel the soul of open-source is already dead … with everyone claiming the GNOME model is better than KDE.
I thought linux was supposed to always be free and open. If it lead to world domination, that would be a pleasant surprise. But forcing it down people’s throat by appeasing the corporate is down right cheap and unethical!
> If it is the case that Gnome has all these faults why are
> Novell and Sun offering desktops based on Gnome?
The point is quite simple to answer. Novell offers desktop based on GNOME and KDE. They haven’t settled to either one of those as many of their public statements made us users understand. But you also know that Novell bought Ximian because of the solutions they offer and that Ximian was mostly GNOME centric. The involvement from SUN was contract based if I am not mistaken. I recall that a SUN employee told me about this but recently SUN has been laying off a lot of developers who worked on GNOME (sorry I don’t have a reference at hands atm). This is probably also policits and a matter of marketing and sales since GNOME is mostly USA centric.
> I take it you are a KDE user?
No.
> Apologies if my assumption is wrong.
No problem.
> I would be the first to admit that Gnome needs to improve
> in quite a few areas, but your assertion that ‘Gnome is
> broken’ is I believe, quite a bit wide of the mark.
> Because as far as I’m concerned, if it didn’t work. I
> would not use it. And I don’t suppose many other people
> would either.
I accept your first part of this quote but GNOME is really broken, the point is, you as user don’t notice these things. It’s not the visible stuff that I am refering to, it’s more the architectual things that I like to refer to. Mostly code, stuff not really working (ever tried to connect to a FTP with GNOME and try leeching some directories or files) and other stuff.
> when was the last time you used Gnome?
As we speak, using GNOME from CVS.
“I really don’t care if Adobe ports anything to Linux or not or if they release/port anything to open source or not since I am able to find good and usable open source alternatives already.”
If you don’t care and if it wasn’t your point, why did you bring it up? Just because you wrongly thought it offered a good chance to portray me and others who disagree with you as zealots? Jesus, grow up.
“This is pure bullshit because Windows is more than just a Desktop with some shabby apps. Windows is an entire operating system a truly different dimension of code and stuff we need to take into consideration and talk about. But this doesn’t mean that I am a supporter of Windows – I just like to mention the dimensions that people like you seem to ignore.”
Where did I ignore anything? All I did was ask you to back up your point, which you are seemingly unable to do?
“This is nothing that I need to explain in lengthy comments that you will ignore anyways or other GNOME fanboys it’s simply a fact that it is how I say it.”
First off, calling me a Gnome fanboy is so way off base, you wouldn’t even believe it. And claiming “it’s simply a fact that it is how I say it.” isn’t really all that convincing.
So unless you finally come up with something worthwhile to say, apart from personal attacks and claims that are so incredibly well argued as “it’s simply a fact that it is how I say it.”, I consider this conversation over.
i completely agree with you.
kde as far as i know is more integrated than gnome
for example every files contains metadata that can be extracted without problems using only kdelibs.
you can also do searching by metadata with kfind….
Novel should concentrate on a stable Mono development. You can see how microsoft developed advanced tools for Rapid application devepolment/deployment on windows using .net framework.
> If you don’t care and if it wasn’t your point, why did you
> bring it up?
I didn’t – it was Dogacan Guney who brought it up and I replied to him and later you replied to me.
> Jesus, grow up.
I prefer that you call me Anonymous, no need to call me Jesus – though I would like it
> Where did I ignore anything? All I did was ask you to back
> up your point, which you are seemingly unable to do?
Look, if you really get me starting to back everything up (which has been brought up dozens and tons of times before and not only by me) then we both know where all this ends. Should we ? You seem to be quite provocative here and force this situation to occour so you can all jump on here for bashing.
> So unless you finally come up with something worthwhile to
> say, apart from personal attacks and claims that are so
> incredibly well argued as “it’s simply a fact that it is
> how I say it.”.
Whom was I attacking ?
it’s great that linux is as good or better than windows. to be honest, i don’t care if the applications i use run on windows, osx or windows as long as it runs and does the job, great.
i love ubuntu on my laptop. detected all hardware and just works and i hate manually updating software on windows, but i still use windows reguarly, because of the software that doesn’t exist for linux.
but linux is ready for the desktop and the first commercial software is ported. adobe and macromedia released stuff for linux, it’s just a matter of time until they sell software for linux.
i see two big plaforms in 10 years:
linux/x86 and linux/ppc
😉
“I didn’t – it was Dogacan Guney who brought it up and I replied to him and later you replied to me.”
Ah, I see, that’s why you quoted me in your post and accused me of ranting against close-source applications because I wanted so show everyone how l33t I am.
“Look, if you really get me starting to back everything up (which has been brought up dozens and tons of times before and not only by me) then we both know where all this ends. Should we ? You seem to be quite provocative here and force this situation to occour so you can all jump on here for bashing.”
Look, all I have been asking you for about 500 times now is to back up your assertion that Gnome is broken. This has nothing to do with me being provocative, you simply have to provide something to back up your assertion, otherwise posting it in the first place is pretty useless.
“Whom was I attacking ?”
Me.
I accept your first part of this quote but GNOME is really broken
I’m having some trouble here. If Gnome is really broken why don’t I notice it?
I start apps, I use them, I close them, and all without screens full of errors etc etc…
It’s not the visible stuff that I am refering to, it’s more the architectual things that I like to refer to.
OK, different viewpoints, from a user-like point of view I don’t give a damm about architecture, just ask the average windows user what he/she thinks of the windows architecture, they’ll probably look at you like you need a long lie down. They want a system and apps to work, reliably and easily.
Me too. And so far, so good.
And a stupid question to finish.
As we speak, using GNOME from CVS.
If you think so little of Gnome why don’t you use KDE or XFCE or whatever?
“> Ah, I see, that’s why you quoted me in your post and accused
> me of ranting against close-source applications because I
> wanted so show everyone how l33t I am.
And I care because ?”
Because it shows you are lying and because you cared enough to post.
Anyway, as I already said, if you don’t have anything worthwhile to say I’ll consider this conversation over.
Btw., what became of your khtml based browser project? I really was interested in it, but unfortunately, as with all your projects, it seems to turn out to be all fuss and nothing delivered.
How about a KHTML-based browser for gnome? Would just require both desktops installed!
Well, just saw gnome the first time shortly a few hours ago, for using it seemed fine, although kde looks fine, too. Just as mentioned above Apps are what is needed, as both desktops seemed to have evolved a lot.
A downside is just that these two are not interoperable, meaning running gnome apps under kde and vice versa, but this seems next to impossible (perhaps with some kind of wrapper?) anyway …
That would be a point where everything could improve, or anyone (including companies) has to decide either kde or gnome, or have more development time to support both.
And what about the X installs without a desktop (only a window manager)? Although I personally would avoid that, unless in low resource situations …
> If Gnome is really broken why don’t I notice it?
On a per application basis you might not see these things, but it also matters what application you use for which tasks and how throughly you use these kind of apps. Example, it could be that you use Nautilus to move some files from one dir to another and organize some files by name or do normal tasks but you probably never used Nautilus to copy some stuff from a FTP site to your homedir or something. You would have noticed that FTP module inside gnome-vfs is (or was depends whether they worked on it in the meanwhile) broken and not copying stuff reliable. Or you open Gnumeric, GPDF, Evolution, Yelp, Totem and use the applications as normally but you never paid attention how their GUI was generated with, some of these tools use Bonobo to draw their window, others use GTK and others again GNOME, which gives you a similar but still not identical user interface experience. Seeing that some applications have hardcoded GUI others use XML files and others use GLADE files to generate their GUI. Sure for a user this is all ok but for the aesthetical aspects this isn’t different looks of toolbars, one with draghandle, the other without one etc. Some apps have that little arrow on the bottom right to drag windows others not and a shitload of details, different About boxes one from gnomeui and one from GTK (the new one).
How long do you think would it require to get all the applications moved towards one GUI system (say GTK+) and have the other stuff deprecated and died out completely.
Now you also need to ask yourself why there is a huge amount of work to get DBUS and other stuff like imense deprecation of functions inside the GNOME api. This is a sign of broken stuff on its own otherwise there wouldn’t be a necessarity of having these things replaced (think about bonobo, corba etc.).
These are just some minor examples of the imense amount of examples that I could bring up.. still I believe I pulled up to much dirt again.
>Sorry to say this but you can’t surpass Windows with >GNOME as Desktop. Is this just Novell BS public PR >marketing or do their people actually know what they talk >about ? Ok Ximian belongs to them but neither does anyone >of them believe that GNOME goes anywhere close to Windows.
well, imho its very easy. the UI windows features can’t even stand in the shadow of the likes of gnome, osX and KDE. each of these is better on almost every aspect, compared to winXP. Gnome is way easier to use, OSX looks better AND is easier to use, KDE looks better, is easier to use, AND has way more flexibility and configurability.
I don’t say KDE is better than osX nor gnome, as KDE isn’t as usable as gnome, nor does it look as good as OSX – but it IS the most powerfull of these, and the look & ease of use isn’t that bad at all.
I admire your attention to detail.
But in the end, even though the Gnome project as a whole has to get everyone singing off the same hymn sheet with regard to how everyone does x, y and z, it’s still a perfectly usable environment that permits me to do what I need to do.
I think Gnome does seem to suffer a bit too much from what I like to call YABAP (Yet Another Bloody Audio Player) Syndrome. Maybe we don’t need 8 different music players, or 5 different text editors, but we do need other apps.
The problem of course is that developers tend to create apps to scratch personal itches. I just wish they’d stop scratching the audio player one!
> But in the end, even though the Gnome project as a whole has
> to get everyone singing off the same hymn sheet with regard
> to how everyone does x, y and z.
Wasn’t this what GNOME was all about ?
I don’t say KDE is better than osX nor gnome, as KDE isn’t as usable as gnome, nor does it look as good as OSX – but it IS the most powerfull of these, and the look & ease of use isn’t that bad at all.
No, but at least you’re mind is open enough to see the good in all three in so much as people can choose what suits them best.
Which is what I thought it was all about anyway. Choice.
LEGEND said:
> A downside is just that these two are not interoperable, >meaning running gnome apps under kde and vice versa, but >this seems next to impossible (perhaps with some kind of >wrapper?) anyway …
Ever used linux? damn, man where did you get this Idea? of course all Gnome apps work perfect in KDE, and visa-versa. only their look&feel are different, and the Gnome apps don’t have access to quite a few advanced KDE technologies, that’s why I prefer KDE applications, like
K3B (gnometoaster and nero suck),
KPDF (kicks gpdf and adobe’s ass anytime),
amarok and juk (no music player beats those, not on windows nor gnome nor macOSX)
and konqueror (best webbrowser/networkbrowser/local browser I know).
And there are Kmldonkey, Kopete, Kontact – all these are at least equal or easilly surpass their gnome counterparts. and they are getting better alot faster than the gnome apps…
Wasn’t this what GNOME was all about ?
That’s the impression I was under, and I think standardisation of the platform and it’s use is not happening.
But end-of-the-world stuff it ain’t.
When Microsoft can sell people Windows, with all it’s faults, vapourware etc and get away with it, well, we don’t need to create perfection that’s for sure.
Do you have multiple personality disorder. You both have the Domain IP: —.dip.t-dialin.net
Maybe just a coincidence.
Yes, used linux often – more on the command line or KDE.
Good to know that most apps for those desktops work (that pure X apps would work under both would be no surprise at all), then I was wrong there – why the flames about KDE/Gnome then?
If you want your gtk/gnome apps to integrate better with kde, just try the gtk-qt-engine. With it your gtk-apps will use your current kde style.
As to your application list:
K3B (gnometoaster and nero suck).
I agree, K3B is great, however I just wated to point out that finally we are seeing some nice gnome burning applications arrive, gnomebaker and graveman.
KPDF (kicks gpdf and adobe’s ass anytime)
Again I agree, the new KPDF kicks ass. However, it doesn’t allow you to fill out forms, like the new adobe reader does and with evince there is a new kickass pdf viewer for Gnome too.
No, dip.t-dialin.net is just what you get from using the biggest ISP in Germany. (It used to be a monopoly, so it really is big).
>Do you have multiple personality disorder. You both have the Domain IP: —.dip.t-dialin.net
That mostly means only that they are from germany and have the same provider – the probably by far most popular (at least for now). One could be in Berlin, the other in Munich, some 100 kms of distance …
Gnome apps don’t have access to quite a few advanced KDE technologies
Perhaps you should read a little more into your prefered DE…
QtGTK is a framework that allows GTK applications to access Qt interfaces such as kio and kparts etc, as well as file dialogues and the like…
Couple that with the gtk-qt theme engine, and you can hardly say that GNOME/GTK apps do not fit in with KDE anymore… of course, its up to developers to actually implement QtGTK in their app… something that Novell and other corporations should just do! (afterall, Novell especially, claims to support both desktops… why double work to ensure this?)
> Do you have multiple personality disorder. You both have the
> Domain IP: —.dip.t-dialin.net
T-Online is a subcompany by Telekom AG and is defacto the biggest ISP as well as Telephone offering company existing in germany. So you can be sure that 95% of the germans who are online use T-Online.
http://www.t-online.de/
http://www.telekom.de/
They broke cdrecord with kernel 2.6 and than Torvalds pissed off the maintainer of cdrecord. How do you burn a cd image if you don’t have KDE installed and K3B. Can you do this with GNOME, and how specifically do you burn an ISO image with GNOME?
That is exactly my point, as not everything that KDE ships is a Qt feature. Some things are KDE specific (at least used to be when I was coding a Qt app back at the beginning of KDE).
A Qt or GTK app is just not too much more then a plain X app – no doubt it runs with both desktops. As you use specific features of the desktops, things get more interesting, and it wasn’t as clear for me that this would work. There is a difference between a Qt app and a KDE app!
Same (I guess, I have to admit) should apply to GTK and Gnome.
> If you want your gtk/gnome apps to integrate better with
> kde, just try the gtk-qt-engine. With it your gtk-apps will
> use your current kde style.
This is no integration but something we call ‘clusterfuck’. Integration means if the application uses the framework as a whole, as recommended, as should. e.g. providing KIOSlaves, using the same DCop backend, using the same printer Interface, interact with the same Toolbar code, same Windowing code, accesses the same Datases or Desktop abstraction. If I make an application look similar then it’s just masquerade but no real integration (Open Office org is one example).
Why tell me what T-Online is? I didn’t raise the multiple personalty stuff
.. my apologizes I saw the mistake too late.
No problem.
“Can you do this with GNOME, and how specifically do you burn an ISO image with GNOME?”
Apart from the apps I already mentioned, why not simply right click on the image and select Burn to disk?
That doesn’t work, because it doesn’t burn as an image, anyway, there is an obtuse option, I found it.
> Apart from the apps I already mentioned, why not simply
> right click on the image and select Burn to disk?
Lol with GNOME ? But there is a serious way of course and of course less trivial than handling with gconftool- 2
a) open gnome-terminal
b) mkisofs -R <patch with files> >/tmp/trk.iso
c) cdrecord dev=/dev/hdc -v -eject blank=all
d) cdrecord dev=/dev/hdc -v -ehect /tmp/trk.iso
You can of course skip c) in case you don’t want to blank. Voila, burning a CD out of GNOME
Skype’s Linux version uses QT, and it is very much closed source and commercial.
There was also an article on Osnews a while back on commercial QT apps here : http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=9493
“That doesn’t work, because it doesn’t burn as an image,”
Always worked for me, always burned an image.
They broke cdrecord with kernel 2.6 and than Torvalds pissed off the maintainer of cdrecord. How do you burn a cd image if you don’t have KDE installed and K3B. Can you do this with GNOME, and how specifically do you burn an ISO image with GNOME?
here http://gnomejournal.org/article/6/cddvd-creation-with-nautilus is an article all about CD/DVD burning in Gnome. Should tell you what you need.
Someone can burn a cd without any GUI this way, so I guess this is not what anyone would call burning a cd out of gnome, but more a fallback to the command line.
>he nearly total lack of closed-source commercial applications
>written with Qt.
Yeah, nobody is using Qt…
http://www.trolltech.com/company/customers.html
All you have to do to burn an iso image is to right click on the image in nautilus and select burn to disk. That’s all there is to it.
Irony is pretty lost on you, is it not?
That link did not answer the question correctly. It only shows you how to burn regular data files.
I don’t think that right clicking would work either. That only works for burning data.
Don’t think, try it, it works, believe me.
So you burned an ISO image and as a result it became a bootable disk using that method?
“So you burned an ISO image and as a result it became a bootable disk using that method?”
Yes, that’s exactly what I’m trying to tell you all the time.
Dammit, yes. That’s what he’s been trying to tell you the whole time. How hard would it be to just Right Click and see for yourself?
To late, I trashed the ISO file a few hours ago because it didn’t burn properly. I have no way to test it.
Really, this discussion feels almost like a chat now….
From novell, to Gnome vs. KDE to how to burn a cd in Gnome.
I was thinking of buying a copy of WindowsXP and Nero, just so that I could burn a copy of Linux. The GNOME people got rid of the option to burn images, who would have thought to right click.
I could have called RMS but it’s $200.00 per hour.
GnomeBaker is the equivalent of K3B in GNOME. Ignore the KDE trolls.
http://makeashorterlink.com/?A4AB129BA
From the aforementioned article:
http://www.gnomejournal.org/images/16.png
“A picture speaks a thousand words”
Well when is Novell releasing PS3? What is the “cell” all about?
PS3 as in Playstation 3? (I assume this, as you mention Cell along with it)
The PS3 is in the end a Sony Product.
Cell is the CPU for this Playstation. Bascially a simple Power-Core with 8 Vector CPUs on a single die, able to deliver a very theoretical maximum speed of 256 GFlops – yet even if it won’t come close to this it will be a very, very powerful CPU in that area.
The people choose kde…
“The default window manager of SUSE 9.3 Professional? Schlaeger’s response: “KDE is still the default desktop environment for SUSE LINUX Professional 9.3. The majority of our customers do prefer it, so we honor their needs and those of the OSS community. But we offer both desktops at the highest possible level to maximize a customer’s choice. We also spend a great amount of development effort to make both KDE & Gnome interoperate smoothly.”
http://www.novell.com/coolsolutions/feature/11878.html
All of these arguements over which linux desktop is better and which dev thing to use (Qt or GTK) and this and that differences about KDE and Gnome.. this is why Linux has no chance on the desktop, a community divided. Linux is a pain if you’re not a whiz with the command line. Linux zealots tend to forget that when companies talk about the “Desktop” they’re talking about your Mom and Joe Bob Average User. They don’t want the command line. If they did, the “desktop” would never have evolved from pre-Mac/Windows days.
Installing applications on Linux is different on each major distro. Where’s my application? I don’t know, which distro are you running? Linux isn’t one OS, it’s a dozen similar OSes all trying to be number one. I’m fairly computer knowledgeable, but Linux is still difficult. People don’t want difficult, they want easy to use and pretty, of which, Linux is neither.
>>Virtual desktops on rotating cubes, ‘like mac os x’, desktop GPL<<
I would like too see less effort put into so-called “eye candy” and have that effort redirected to functionallity.
In 1984, Apple revolutionized computers by building an excellent GUI, and thereby making computers easier to use. Since then, it seems that everybody wants to keep “improving” the GUI with more and more and more “features.”
Problem is, after a while, you reach the point of diminishing returns. All these features actually become obtrusive. For example “clippy” and these see through menus where the text in the menus mixes with other text. And of course all of these feature are resource hogs.
IMO: forget the rotating cubes, and all the rest of that useless cr@p. Give me a clean simple interface that isn’t distracting, and doesn’t get in my way.
I’d really like to tell you more but this would require you to understand the technology behind GNOME a bit better, this means not just being able to install some stuff and style it with fancy icons. We need to dive deeper into the whole architecture of GNOME. In my opinion the NOVELL people are doing a huge mistake in following the path with GNOME here but at the end it’s not my business at all – and after all it’s just politics too.
Yes, its the VHS vs Betamax story all over again.
No doubt, KDE have the superiour technology over Gnome. But people will buy/use Gnome due to better looks, better usability, and better financial backing. I really feel sorry for KDE developers as their good work is not recognized to its full value. Just look how often the get bashed here at osnews.
I sometimes hold courses in Linux. A couple of years ago (before Gnome 2.0) all participants soon switched to KDE within the first day as KDE didn’t crash on them, and they could actually get tings done using it. Now this doesn’t happen anymore. If I see a trend, it would be in the opposite direction (People moving from KDE to Gnome)
If I look around and ask my friends what they are using. A couple of years ago the answer was almost always KDE, and the friend using it was typically had a computer related work, such as software developer, sys admin. Other people used windows.
Now, Linux have spread outside the circles of computer wizzards, and is used by ordinary office workers, but they almost always choose Gnome. Hyped distros like ubunto makes the situation even worse for KDE.
>>this is why Linux has no chance on the desktop, a community divided. Linux is a pain if you’re not a whiz with the command line. Linux zealots tend to forget that when companies talk about the “Desktop” they’re talking about your Mom and Joe Bob Average User <<
And this is exactly the reason why Windows is ‘not ready for the desktop’. Fact is my mom and joe bob average user can’t install windows nor configure it properly, even with all the wizards … i know because ever so often i have to sort out some of the XP machines from my relatives ( and before you bash them as ‘stupid’ – they are in fact very intelligent people). Also get your facts right
1. configuring with the command line has nothing to do with KDE / Gnome rivalry
2. Most Linux distribution have GUI for most of the system configuration … in the case of Novell it is Yast – which is very powerful and at least as complete as windows configuration tools … oh and by the way linux installations are at least as easy and certainly quicker than Windows installations.
>> People don’t want difficult, they want easy to use and pretty, of which, Linux is neither. <<
Gnome is by far easier to use than Windows … and in terms of people want ‘pretty’ … that just makes me laugh, Windows pretty??? Huaaaaa, Windows must be the ugliest GUI in existence !
@walterbyrd
Actually, not all that is usually defined eye-candy is devoid of any intrinsic usability value.
For example: animation when minimizing a window to the task-bar or dock is a visual aid to let the user know that the window did not disappear, and the application was not closed… it’s down there in the bar/dock.
The rotating animation in OsX happens when you user-switch, I think, and again is a visual clue to the fact that the previous desktop was not closed, but you just ‘moved’ to work on another one.
For the very same reason I can understand the usefulness of scrolling/rotating when changing virtual desktop in X. My mom certainly is not familiar with ‘virtual desktops’ but if she saw the windows scrolling into and out of the viewport she would be much less worried than seeing them all disappear because she clicked on the pager.
That said, I understand being sick with eye-candy for the sake of it. Translucent menus are a good example, as there’s little sense in having it less visible and harder to read as once a menu is open it’s the only object on the screen I should interact with.
> Windows must be the ugliest GUI in existence !
Actually Windows is a full featured Operating System serving hundret of different combinations of x86 hardware, with nice support and nice 3rd party stuff. The GUI ain’t that bad after all.
No need to be nit picking … ok Windows HAS the ugliest GUI.
The argument is moot anyway as beauty is in the eye of the beholder … personally i find Gnome and KDE far more ‘prettier’ than the Windows GUI.
Actually Linux is a full featured Operating System serving hundreds of different combination of x86 harware as well as many different other architectures. hardware has never been a problem for me everything worked out of the box. and there is tons of free software that is more than adequate for productive use … without the virus crap! the only area were linux is lacking currently is games … but then i do not play games.
AFAIK FS in WinFS does not stand for File System but Future Storage…
http://www.tomshardware.com/storage/20040129