Submitted by It appears that Sony has been putting nasty payloads onto its copy-protected CDs in the form of a rootkit. “Not only had Sony put software on my system that uses techniques commonly used by malware to mask its presence, the software is poorly written and provides no means for uninstall. Worse, most users that stumble across the cloaked files with a RKR scan will cripple their computer if they attempt the obvious step of deleting the cloaked files. This is a clear case of Sony taking DRM too far.”
Stop buying stuff from companies that do not respect your rights … or stop complaining ..
You just can’t feed a monster and then whine when it bits you …
EXACTLY! People whine like babies – I don’t see Sony forcing the human race to buy their CD’s. People choose to. This is all part of the Sony Music Experience – embrace and enjoy it. 🙂 I will stick to non-DRM, non-Sony CD’s myself. 🙂
I don’t see Sony forcing the human race to buy their CD’s. People choose to.
I don’t. I do buy CD’s but I only buy from non RIAA labels. That’s my choice – good job I like indie music
This is good (and yes I like Indie as well). The problem is that people have trouble saying no to their impulses, and even more so they think that piracy will somehow solve the problem. It doesn’t. Let’s ask ourselves this; would we even be having this discussion if people had been educated consumers right from the start, and voted with their currency as to what they approved of, and withheld from what they didn’t? What about all the other complaints raised? Are we really that apathetic to what’s happenning around us? If so, then do we really have any room to complain about the system we’re suffering under now? Absentee landlords with our government, and absentee consumers with our companies. Reap what yea sow.
The problem is that when “the monster” starts going hungry, it starts buying other unrelated companies that you’ll unknowingly support. For example, not many people realize that when they purchase Oreo cookies, they are supporting big tobacco ever since RJR bought Nabisco.
dude … I mean … we are talking about “microsoft” and “sony” in here … the “when” is SO not an issue …
unless you are willing to come up and say “sony and microsoft took me by surprise!”, which you are probably not going to do, then “when” they became hungry is not the point in this case …
One is a *convicted* monopolist, the other .. well, the other is sony … They became hungry a REALLY long time ago, and that’s a fact …
I actually think we are talking about Sony here, nobody else has mentioned microsoft. This is Sony acting unfairly, it has nothing to do with MS
It has nothing to do with MS?? really? I thought that sony was installing rootkits on windows systems!! Didn’t MS manufacture those systems??
Rootkits are are available for linux and Unix, MS is not to blame in this particualr senario. The name gives it away, rootkits were invented on Unix first, there is no “root” in windows
Edited 2005-11-02 16:28
but we are taking “Microsoft” rootkits in here!!! Not UNIX!!! Microsoft Windows!!
No, we’re talking Sony here, not MS, a rootkit is a rootkit, they are not any easier to write for Windows then anything else. Maybe I should stop feeding the troll, and an anonymous one at that
Sadly the majority of consumers couldn’t tell a usb port appart from a RJ-45 jack; they don’t know what a rootkit is, in fact they believe that DRM, trojans and rootkits are a good thing when there’s a new article about how they are being used vigilante style to “fight piracy and save the poor starving artits”.
The RIAA has been screwing people over for years and the general public regards them as heroes in their own ignorance. I’ve broken off friendships with people because they were actually dumb enouth to argue that the RIAA was good after I told them the truth; people literally just close their ears and say “well I know how to play guitar so these people are fighting for me” as if they’ll actually get something from the RIAA, ROFL!
Years and years of claiming to be on a crusade for all those artists who are starving to death in their million dollar mansions with their expensive cars is what is keeping people blind towards the truth about the RIAA. It doesn’t matter that their claim to fame is suing soccer moms and 6 year olds who don’t have the knowhow to defend themselves, people still love them. Then when the RIAA has to uphold it’s part of the bargains it has with insitutions, it craps out like that time it was supposed to donate music to schools and libraries and all they got were thousands of copies of Will Smith’s Willenium Cd.
Isn’t the RIAA trying to get Apple to raise prices on songs right now, I remember reading on /. iirc that some companies are now trying to cut off Apple’s music connections because apple wouldn’t raise their prices to unreasonable levels. Steve Jobs was 100% correct when he said that raising the prices would only send people back to piracy and yet the RIAA didn’t care because they’ll try anything to get more money into their pockets.
As bad as the RIAA gets the general public is still far from rebelling simply because they belive the corporate “we care” propaganda. The RIAA isn’t a company out to defend artists at all, when you think about it when money goes to the individual companies for music sold, part of that has to go to the artists; however, if the money goes to the RIAA instead then most of it goes straight to Mr. Media company owner since artist contracts are for a portion of what’s made through sales.
I’d send the CEO of Sony a Mosler safe with a desk inside and see if he remembers his 20th century history well enough.
I’ll never buy *anything* with the brand “Sony” ever again
You have to keep in mind that a lot of people don’t know what they are subjecting themselves to. Do companies have the right to take advantage of people that just don’t know anybetter, or should the potential risks of Sony’s actions be disclosed, in prominent writing, so that consumers can make an informed decision over whether or not they will buy the product.
Until large amounts of people make informed decisions on what they will and will not stand for in terms of business practice these practices will continue. The relatively small amount of people that are currently aware of the consequences of such technologies are not enough to make a difference.
Instead of just boycotting products, we should be writing to appropriate people that can work to change consumer laws and regulations. If anyone knows who we can contact about these issues, please let the community know.
“You have to keep in mind that a lot of people don’t know what they are subjecting themselves to.”
You mean it like in, they don know what they are subjecting when they buy stuff from a convicted monopolist, or from sony? Really? I mean, REALLY??????
“Do companies have the right to take advantage of people that just don’t know anybetter…”
Nope, they do not …And that when the regulatory activities of the state of a given country come into the scene. That’s one of the many reasons why you pay taxes to suppport congress comissions, comitees, examination boards, and ultimatly, well, the whole Justice scheme …
“or should the potential risks of Sony’s actions be disclosed, in prominent writing, so that consumers can make an informed decision over whether or not they will buy the product.”
Sad but, unless that there is a law that forces companies to do so, they won’t do it …
That’s how it works and we all know it, or are suppossed to do so ..
Now, and given that not everybody is supossed to know every single available law, its aplication scope and its intrincasies, is a rather safe attitude to stay away from products manufactured by companies who by their monopolistics practicies, or for not giving s squat about their consumers rights ….
Of course, you can claim that “not everybody knows how every compani behaves” … but, the truth o the matter is that if you are buying something, you should at least get informed about the product/company your are buying it from … otherwise, you get to pay for your own stupidity … which is, simply put, fair …
“Instead of just boycotting products”
There’s no boycotting involved on my post … There’s a simple INFORMED BUYER desicion …
And, by the way, buying or not buying their products is the only thing that makes a difference for those companies …
“who are well known by their monopolistics practicies, or for not giving a squat about their consumers rights …”
that’s what I meant =P
This is taking it too far – SONY, play nice!
While reading the comments posted below the articles of reference, i found someone saying something about “FELONY COMPUTER TAMPERING” under some Illinois law …
google, of course, and here you go:
http://registrar.siu.edu/records/complaw.htm
That’s whe the whole Justice scheme kicks in …
Most people don’t want DRM and if they now even force it without telling then it has gone too far. It is time to sue big companies and use the money to start companies that will make DRM free stuff that is like the DRM stuff.
Privacy should be just that private, I should be the one who decides what to be installed on my computer. And if I don’t fully like the license agreement I should still be able to install a software. Big guys think they can take all the freedom from the smaller, but many smaller can overrun the big ones, DRM is the big companies latest plug in the sinking ship to still be able to take a fortune for their products when in fact they should take alot less for them or even better offer them for free which is what most people would like.
*takes a nice deep breath feeling satisfied to have cleared some anger*
“It is time to sue big companies and use the money to start companies that will make DRM free stuff that is like the DRM stuff. ”
I got a better question. Why hasn’t anyone started one to begin with? Why are you all waiting for a problem to develop before taking steps? How long have we known about “fair use” and “our rights”? Obviously this Internet is useless, if it’s not living up to it’s hype. Google: DRM. Google: Copyright. Google: Fair Use.
“And if I don’t fully like the license agreement I should still be able to install a software.”
And if I don’t like the GPL license, I should still be able to do what I want. It cuts both ways dude. Kind of like that whole “Free speech”, even if it’s hate.
“DRM is the big companies latest plug in the sinking ship to still be able to take a fortune for their products when in fact they should take alot less for them or even better offer them for free which is what most people would like. ”
Well no. A lot of people need to lose the “lets run a society on feelings”. I feel entitled to government handouts. I feel entitled to my neighbours car. No one’s entitled to the effort of others. If a company isn’t entitled to profits, then I’m not entitled to what they produce.
I’m going to say this one. Humanity got themselves into this mess by not being able to say no to their wants. You WANT music, then you either pay someone else to produce it for you, or you do without. You want a movie, then you pay someone to make it for you, or do without.
If someone out of the generosity of their hearts offers either free, then you say thank you, and recognize it as the gift it is, not the entitlement.
I don’t like some of the things that the RIAA/MPAA are doing, but neither am I a fool to think that there aren’t the anti-social out their making lives difficult for the honest and themselves alike*
We are as much partners in this mess and it will not be solved by appealing to making everything free, nor destroying IP, for that is as much the cure being worse than the disease.
You all want things the way they were? Then do what you all should have been doing a long time ago. You should have been participating in your government. From local to national. Every day of your lives. You should have been an informed consumer, not only in control of your wallet, but your desires. You should have been educating your fellows about what you know as an informed consumer. If you saw a legitimate desire that either wasn’t being met, or inadequately so? Then you either let the companies know, or you went out and started your own to meet that need. This very forum exists because someone saw a need. They didn’t whine about big, bad, old companies keeping the man down.
*Yes the dishonest eventually suffer karma as well. It just takes a bit longer.
I couldn’t just resist replying to your comment. Firstly, some of your ideas I agree with, don’t get me wrong.
Quote: “Why hasn’t anyone started one to begin with?”
Fair enough question. And tell me, how would they compete with the RIAA which is basically a monopoly? The RIAA would kill any competitor very quickly. They intend to be the sole route of music governance in the United States of America. Competition will not be tolerated, because it means less profits for them. Since, they are almost, a protected semi government body (well they have the blessing of the US senate), you have both the RIAA and the government against you. How do you win against that? Ever heard the phrase “the cards are stacked against you”? I thought not.
Quote: “And if I don’t like the GPL license, I should still be able to do what I want. It cuts both ways dude. Kind of like that whole “Free speech”, even if it’s hate.”
The problem is that accessing a product that you’ve bought, that you’ve paid hard earned money for, should allow you to do what you want with it. The DRM and copy protection software is presuming that you are guilty. Last I looked, the US was supposedly a democratic state, with the legal system based on “you are innocent until proven guilty”. Why is the reverse applied here? I would like to be trusted, as a mature adult, that I can make a moral choice not to pirate music when I choose to play an Audio CD on my PC.
Furthermore, software such as this represents a security risk, illegal alters your computer, breaking several laws, in several countries I might add, and is difficult to detect, let alone remove! What about the customer’s rights? Where does the RIAA’s or Sony’s rights trump mine? I have rights too. It seems that because these large corporations have lots of money, they can buy politicians to make decisions that favour them. This is problematic because corporations have no right to vote. Only individuals do. So, in essence, the voting system recognises that allowing corporations to interfere with government decisions is potentially dangerous, and not to the benefit of the individual, who legally can vote for a government. So, why do modern governments allow it to happen? Is it because they are no longer interested in serving the will of the people who legally voted them in? I’d say yes. And it’s all to do with money and power. Senators such as Brent Hatch get a kickback from supporting large corporations wishes in legislative decision making. You can deny this all you want, but it doesn’t alter the truth of the matter. I know the truth of what is happening, it’s as plain as daylight.
Quote: “I’m going to say this one. Humanity got themselves into this mess by not being able to say no to their wants. You WANT music, then you either pay someone else to produce it for you, or you do without. You want a movie, then you pay someone to make it for you, or do without.”
You’re basically saying greed. Yes, you are, essentially, correct. But – large corporations have to abide by laws and regulations – just like an individual. We do see constant abuse of this by large corporations, because, again, they have money, and therefore power. This is where the problem is, and this needs to be rectified.
Quote: “I don’t like some of the things that the RIAA/MPAA are doing, but neither am I a fool to think that there aren’t the anti-social out their making lives difficult for the honest and themselves alike* ”
Sure, there are thieves out there. And sure, that small percentage makes it hard for the rest of us honest folk. But, going about things the way that they (RIAA/MPAA etc)are going about them isn’t the way to solve it. As more and more public becomes aware of their tactics, the resentment will only grow and grow.
Quote: “We are as much partners in this mess and it will not be solved by appealing to making everything free, nor destroying IP, for that is as much the cure being worse than the disease.”
True. But, it can be done. It’s just a matter of changing the way that you think. The GPL has done most of what would make mankind a better species – encouraged co-operation by people, for the people.
Quote: “You should have been participating in your government. From local to national. Every day of your lives.”
Now, this is really where I disagree with you. For a long time now, governments and businesses have been encouraging individuals to be lax. Complaining about something is difficult, with lots of unecessary red tape and time involved. I work an 9 hour day, spend 2 and a half hours travelling. Should I have to spend 4 hours a day to monitor the government’s decisions? To monitor their inability to serve the very public that votes them in and empowers them [the politicians]? I think not. Must people work, come home, do housework, play with kids, relax for a few hours at most (TV, talk, computer) and then go to sleep and repeat the next day. Original thought? Not many people have it this day I’m afraid to say. Society has bred it out of us over a period of time, to speak out is taboo. To be different is taboo. To stand up for your rights is taboo. If I get mistreated I’m very vocal. People look at me horrified that I’ve just stood up for my rights/myself. Social stigma is more and more forcing people to stay quiet, to not voice their opinions. To not protest injustice. Countries are introducing laws to curb public freedom of thought and speech (Patriot Act in the US is a good example). People just want to live their lives. They elect a politician to serve them, in good faith. That good faith no longer exists. Therein lies the problem. I’m in favour of a true democracy, where the public decides on every single piece of legislation. Every single bit gets voted on by the public. The politicians debate it, draft the legislation up, but ultimately, it’s the people who vote on it. The problem with this is legislation is complex, legalese is hard to read, and even harder to understand. Plain English legislation sadly does not exist. When it should.
Quote: “*Yes the dishonest eventually suffer karma as well. It just takes a bit longer.”
I agree with you here.
Dave
“Fair enough question. And tell me, how would they compete with the RIAA which is basically a monopoly? The RIAA would kill any competitor very quickly. They intend to be the sole route of music governance in the United States of America. Competition will not be tolerated, because it means less profits for them. Since, they are almost, a protected semi government body (well they have the blessing of the US senate), you have both the RIAA and the government against you. How do you win against that? Ever heard the phrase “the cards are stacked against you”? I thought not. ”
I’m sorry, did you just whine at me? You may not realize this, but there’s NOTHING the MPAA/RIAA can do concerning content YOU produce. The same laws they work under apply to you. Plus there ARE people and other small companies producing and selling music. So NO I don’t buy such defeatist thinking as “I can’t”.
“The problem is that accessing a product that you’ve bought, that you’ve paid hard earned money for, should allow you to do what you want with it. The DRM and copy protection software is presuming that you are guilty. Last I looked, the US was supposedly a democratic state, with the legal system based on “you are innocent until proven guilty”. Why is the reverse applied here? I would like to be trusted, as a mature adult, that I can make a moral choice not to pirate music when I choose to play an Audio CD on my PC.
”
The point was that you can’t violate someone elses rights just because you don’t agree with them. Cutting off one’s noise to spite one’s face is the actions of a fool. If he/she didn’t agree with the license then they should have returned it for a refund. I’m not certain why you all seem to be having such a big problem with that concept? Is it really that hard to say “No I will not desire that product”?
“Sure, there are thieves out there. And sure, that small percentage makes it hard for the rest of us honest folk. But, going about things the way that they (RIAA/MPAA etc)are going about them isn’t the way to solve it. As more and more public becomes aware of their tactics, the resentment will only grow and grow. ”
And individual piracy isn’t going to do anything but make the situation worse.
“Now, this is really where I disagree with you.”
Constrast that with the present attitude, and you’ll see that I don’t. This mess didn’t happen overnight, and no bandaid like piracy will solve it overnight either. And to make it worse people are talking about “revolution this” and “revolution that” (let’s pretend that they mean they will participate in this revolution instead of sending other to fight it for them). Forgetting that people die in revolutions, and entire societies are destroyed. Maybe we should bring history back to our classrooms, and people would realize that nothing good in life is easy. Not even saying, NO!
Sorry, but I live in the real world. You just can’t take on an established entity like the RIAA and win. They are a worse monopolist than Microsoft, and that’s saying something. The US government will not touch the RIAA due to the fact that it would irreparably damage the US economy. So, money goes before law, yet again. It really does make me wonder who the politicians are really serving. It certainly isn’t the people.
As to individual piracy, wake up man. People have been f–king pirating music for the past 30 odd years, even since Philips invented the compact cassette (you do remember that, don’t you?). I’m certainly not saying piracy is right, so don’t misconstrue my comments. It’s wrong. But, the reality of it is, there’ll always be some amount of piracy. That’s the way that the world works.
In the end, I didn’t like Sony as a company anyways, and I don’t buy their shit. I do urge others not to buy their shit as well.
Dave
Just use the mule, folks.
i was just about to buy a sony mp3 player – but now i’ll go for an iRiver which plays open standards (ogg) – doesn’t need special software to use it as a storage device – and doesn’t break my computer.
“i was just about to buy a sony mp3 player – but now i’ll go for an iRiver which plays open standards (ogg) – doesn’t need special software to use it as a storage device – and doesn’t break my computer.”
Don’t.. new iRivers require the use of windows media player to transfer music (using MTP), and they can’t be used as a regular storage device. They also have a tendency to disable features in non-asian versions (like radio). http://www.misticriver.net/forumdisplay.php?f=131 (check for threads complaining about MTP only instead of UMS) I unknowingly bought one, and brought it straight back and exchanged for a second Samsung.
You’d be much better served by a Samsung: also ogg capable, and usable as a storage device, making it easy to load music with any USB capable OS.
My iRiver H320 doesn’t seem to do these things. Transfers music over windows, mac and linux easy peasy, radio works here in the uk and I’ve been using it as a storage device for ages. I regularly move files from computer to computer and os to os using it no problem. Maybe you’ve got a bum model!
Did you check the link I provided? Do you know what MTP and UMS mean**?
iRiver’s newer players can’t be used as an external thumbdrive/hard drive, and can’t be used with Linux or Macintosh. Your older hard drive player can be, great. Older flash players can be too, great. Newer ones cannot. http://www.misticriver.net/showthread.php?t=28641 (US, EU versions of the t30 flash player)
http://www.misticriver.net/showthread.php?t=9884 (US version of the h10 HD player)
Some of the players encumbered by being MTP only can be flashed with firmware from different regions to use UMS (h10 for one, though it creates issues), some cannot (t30).
If one wants a new hard drive player and is happy to flash it with an unsupported firmware, fire away and get an iRiver I guess.
I know they used to be perfectly usable as an external drive, that’s why I got one. Yours works because you bought it before they switched. The whole point of my post is that they have switched and your experiences with your unit are no longer valid when considering buying a new one. I would advise against buying any more of them, unless you order it from Australia or Korea (though I don’t really feel like supporting them at all if they treat US/EU customers like crap).
**
MTP: Media Transfer Protocol (must use Windows Media Player 10). US and EU versions of new iRiver flash players use this.
UMS: Universal Mass Storage (thumbdrive like stuff, usable on any USB-capable OS).
Just wanted to chime in in the iRiver debate here. As a proud owner of a brand-spanking new iRiver that uses is under Linux, I think the assertion that they don’t work with Linux is a little overblown.
iRiver supports two different configurations that can be switched using the firmware images on the install CD or downloadable from iRiver. One configuration turns you device into a USB storage device, but at the same time has absolutely no logic for handling thing like FM presets as files, etc. So if you use the USB storage firmware, you loose some functionality in exchange for convenience.
The other firmware uses a proprietary protocol to control the device an exchange files. This is nowhere near as convenient the USB storage approach, but enables access to the sull range of features on the device. If using Mac OS/X or Linux, you need to obtain a copy of the iscp (sp?) utilities to interface with the device in this configuration.
I use mine with iscp under Linux and it works like a charm. I haven’t tried the USB storage-based firmware for it.
A good bit of detective work to find the culprit behind the mask. Unfortunately, the average user wouldn’t even suspect there was a problem, let alone know how to root it out. Damn you, Sony!
Let’s welcome Sony as the newest malware distributor on the block!
Play fair or get a red card from customers!
Since I just spent the past three hours ripping proprietary crapplets and quickloaders out of a neighbors POS Dell then spent another hour manually deleting McAfee’s AV because the ‘free’ version from Comcast doesn’t include a WORKING de-installer…
That a manufacturer like Sony would do this sort of thing doesn’t surprise me one damned bit. It’s why my FIRST advice on buying a PC is NEVER, EVER, [u]EVER[/u] buy name brand… and why when I come across a name brand machine my gut reaction is to do delete the partition and start over from scratch with a “REAL” Windows CD, not even TRUSTING the goofy pre-load crap some of these companies saddle the poor unknowing fools with.
Over the past two decades we’ve seen one piece of crap after another from the ‘big name’ PC manufacturers… How many PC technicians out there don’t get cold sweats and uncontrollable shuddering from the words “Dell”, “Compaq” or the worst offender of all time “Packard Bell”? Between the goofy third party crapplets which are damn near malware to begin with, combined with the goofy proprietary hardware that nueters your chances of adding even the simplest standard devices (anyone actually open up a Dell lately?) I often wonder how the larger PC manufacturers continue to exist – until I remember what a total {censored} moron the average consumer is.
Because for all the protests and getting our panties in a bunch over stuff like this, no amount of warning flags will rouse the average consumer from an apathy that finds its roots in laziness, ignorance, and just plain wishful thinking. It is why companies like AOL, Symantec and Dell continue to even exist despite sleazy business practices that make Microsoft look outright reputable.
Sony and rootkits how very sad. Are Sony that scared of their consumers, or are they so dumb and cocky to think they could pull a fast one on people.
Sony; your glassed! haha
Edited 2005-11-02 06:54
or at least take a look – they’re very nice players.
It seems to me that the obvious solution to all of these problems is to stop listening to country music. Sony is innocent here – I blame country music.
The people that care won’t buy stuff from them anyway. They make their money off the masses that are clueless.
How about this: the DRM measure is an explicit violation of the 1976 Bern Convention on copyright. Also, the rootkit actually enables other software to insinuate itself into the system and operate entirely hidden — which not only violates several federal statues, but would seem to clearly contravene several laws enacted after 9/11 (inlucding the US PATRIOT act).
Why not do two things: 1.) notify the Department of Homeland security that Sony Music has distributed software on music CDs that intentionally subverts the core security protocols of Windows operating systems and enables affected systems to be used for illicit purposes including cyberterrorism; 2.) since only Windows systems are infected, come up with an informational flyer and a “conversion CD” (a live Linux CD that has CD duping software on it), with printed instructions on how to copy the affected CD to a CD-R without the offending software (which is absolutely legal for the purchaser of a CD to do). Heck, I don’t see why you can’t volunteer to setup a small desk at a store to perform the service for people — check their receipt, get a blank CD-R for them, and burn a “SafeDupe” for them.
Let me tell you this, a few high-profile stores with SafeDupe Saturdays and a an informational flyer about why they are needed that even my grandmother could understand would *REALLY* make a difference where a boycott would not.
You’re making this more complicated than it needs to be.
1) Inform Sony that you don’t approve of this questionable behaviour. If you want to make a legal case out of it? That’s your choice. Inform others (make the Internet live up to it’s hype).
2) Download software that will clean up the mess (free naturally).
3) Return the CD and ask for a refund, and don’t forget to tell the store why you are doing so.
INFORM-ACTION-CONSEQUENCES.