Linux creator Linus Torvalds defended the open source movement against critics who say that the so-called “community of communities” should band together or risk ending up like Unix.
Linux Creator: A Little Fragmentation is Good
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli
It is admirable to see at least one indivudual in the IT-industry, who feels – although in a bit naive and childish manner – that computing should be something else than sucking your customers dry with semi-working products and force feeding them features that they don’t need.
that computing should be something else than sucking your customers dry with semi-working products and force feeding them features that they don’t need.
I guess you would have to include RedHat in the force-feeding category. How many megabytes do you have to download for a Fedora install these days? What – minimum of 3 isos?
Linux fragmenting like UNIX just won’t happen. It can’t. UNIX fragmentation was due to its proprietary nature. Once companies started releasing there own versions that worked differently, others were no longer completely compatable. With Linux, if you release a new version that works differently, its open source, so anyone can be fully compatable anytime they like. Linux can be infinately diverse without ever actually fragmenting.
Its so silly how much people try to force proprietary software models on open source. It just doesn’t work.
Fragment of GNU GPL’d software is fine, becuase the fragments are exactly under the GPL licence, no more and no less.
Because of this, the best parts from each of all the fragments can be combined. Competition between the different parts is great as it brings innovation.
However, this is not the case with BSD software, as further fragments can be put under different licences and it is therefore legally very difficult or impossible to recombine BSD fragments later.
The beauty of the GNU GPL!
I guess you would have to include RedHat in the force-feeding category. How many megabytes do you have to download for a Fedora install these days? What – minimum of 3 isos?
And who force-feeds you Fedora? Go get DSL, Debian, Slack, Gentoo… The big advantage of having so many choices is that you’re never locked.
Yeah, I understand choice. I was actually being sarcastic and exposing the ridiculousness of his “force-feeding” comment because you’re never force-fed anything in software whether it comes from Microsoft, Linux, or Apple.
The ditch on the left is fragmentation, where you need a plate of sphagetti like Configure to achieve some level of portability.
On the right is monoculture, where keeping legacy code alive has you making ridiculous security compromises.
Java, I think fell in the left ditch where GUI toolkits was concerned. Oh, and MVC solutions for your app servers. Who won that war? .Net. Object Oriented Programming Success! (OOPS!)
OTOH, how many web servers see much attention besides Apache? The HURD kernel continues to lurch toward notice. I think that Open Source finds the middle of the road the bulk of the time.
I guess you would have to include RedHat in the force-feeding category. How many megabytes do you have to download for a Fedora install these days? What – minimum of 3 isos?
—-
you are either misinformed or deliberate about this.
fedora does NOT require a minimum of 3 ISO images. it requires 2 for the personal desktop installation. a basic minimum installation can be done with a single ISO images. you can go ahead and do a net installation too.
you can prune it even further using kickstart if you want to. comps.xml in anaconda can create custom rpm groups if you want and so on
Yeah, I understand choice. I was actually being sarcastic and exposing the ridiculousness of his “force-feeding” comment because you’re never force-fed anything in software whether it comes from Microsoft, Linux, or Apple.
Agreed wholeheartedly. No one is forcing me to use MS. So, I don’t use MS (OSX and Solaris for me). However, a lot of people in the world are trying to force people NOT to use MS, which is just as bad.
Choice means choice between Linux, OSX and Windows (very simply put). Choice does not mean choice between Linux.
There are numerous distros out there that all have the same goal. The same software packages are packaged in lots of different ways. There’s lots of good work being done by different people to achieve the same thing. Just think. Imagine if all those people were working together on the same project. The work would be done much better and faster.
I think the freedom of OSS is a double edged sword.
However, a lot of people in the world are trying to force people NOT to use MS
Really? Who? Note: advocating is not forcing. If you’re talking about governments switching to Linux, then it’s not people who are being forced, its government employees. And guess what, they were still forced to use a different OS before that.
So, really, I can’t see who’s trying to force anyone to use Linux, unless you count promoting or advocating the OS as somehow being similar to coercition, which is ridiculous.
MS, on the other hand, has been trying to force people to use their OS for years. It used to be that it was very hard to get a PC without Windows on it. They pressured manufacturers into only offering Windows on PCs, threatening to cut off their oxygen supply if they didn’t comply. Now, that is coercition. Talk to the BeOS guys about it…
Fortunately, MS is losing that battle and it’s now a lot easier to get an OS-less PC. Now, if they could only open their office file formats…
“Really? Who? Note: advocating is not forcing.”
Read carefully what I said there: “trying to force people…”. What i’m trying to say is this: there are a lot of people in this world who want to see MS dead and that the gap be filled with OSS software only. THAT’s what I find utterly wrong and against the whole idea of freedom. Freedom means a choice between both open and closed.
I should’ve made myself more clear, excuse me for that.
Talk to the BeOS guys about it…
I don’t talk to myself
.
@dr_gonzo: OSS its not only about get jobe done but also have fun. all people can’t work together in fun because people are very different and would have an war about whats “right” and “wrong”. like linus said OS ist also egoware: do for the good feeling done itself. even different projects work together sharing libs etc. so stay calm and enjoy
To those who believe that nobody is forced to use Microsoft software, I suggest they spend at least an afternoon in a computer shop. They’ll see how many times potential customers are told that their computer must come with Windows pre-installed (I’ve actually heard a seller say that to a client). If that isn’t forcing MS products down customers throats, then what is it ?
People want to see MS dead because of their dirty tricks. Not convinced ? Go to Linspire.com and read Michael Robertson minutes. Still not convinced ? Search for “Microsoft sued” on Google.
Yeah, I understand choice. I was actually being sarcastic and exposing the ridiculousness of his “force-feeding” comment because you’re never force-fed anything in software whether it comes from Microsoft, Linux, or Apple.
How can you be “forced feed” if you do some research before using/buying Operating system X,better yet everything you use or buy.If you would buy Xp you are indirectly forced to feed your PC with at least CD/DVD burning/playback,anti (ad/spy/virus) software,allmost anything besides crappy internet explorer and outlook express.Besides being forced to use active-X,cookies,javascript and whatnot when you want to get some use from MS update service.Besides doing a checksum on whatever file you install on a MS system isn’t exactly common to say the least and put it very mildly.In the (F)OSS and sadly everything non MS community it is common sence to do a checksum or verify the signatures of allmost everything crittical you install on your system,and what isn’t if you install it as root?Personally i think Apple and some Commercial Linux distros have succeeded to create a healthy balance between security and usability.MS only has sometimes usabillity if some third party firm has created an good application,otherwise XP in it’s default state is pretty useless (as (media)desktop).
I guess you would have to include RedHat in the force-feeding category. How many megabytes do you have to download for a Fedora install these days? What – minimum of 3 isos?
Fedora doesn’t force you use their OS.
If you want to run Fedora which isn’t a commercial distro,it’s either performing a ftp-install or buy some CD’s from a X-ISO.org site.Let’s say i don’t want msn messenger,internet explorer,media player,security center installed? How am i going to do that?With most serious non MS,non Mac you can run non-X11 if you wanted to.Try to strip of the GUI of XP,lol.It installs you pretty much everything without asking you if you want to,and what is installed was allready present on W9x and will most likely the case with Lonhorn now they have confirmed to strip WinFS from the initial releases so that it has to be added later ( how much later?).It’s realy a shame they still sell the damn OS separately and not bundles with a lot of software so you couls start using the PC right away.Astonishing how much you have to pay for an OS that hasn’t went through an relevant upgrade since it’s existance,and most likely will not be in the nearby future,postponed release dates etc etc.MS force feed you pratically everything basicly,to buy a lot of stuff extra on top of the way to high prize of the OS.
But hey 95% of all PC users are illiterate anyway and nobody seames to care about Cartells and monopoly deals/contracts just with the purpose of making money alone.There’s nothing with making money though.If you deliver quality also.I’m wondering where this IQ 142 braniac of a Bill Gates has been after works and word for dos and the invention of windows.They should better sell their Desktop OS source to the chinese and continue to be involved with servers.
What – minimum of 3 isos?
Just one.
…
…
…
Granted, it’s the DVD iso. =)
My favorite maxim spouted is:
“I liked installing Gentoo because it required me to learn all about my computer.”
These same people talk about how “You can only buy a computer with windows on it”
Well, since you’re so interested in “learning about computers” why don’t you buy all the parts seperately and build it yourself? You’ll learn a whole lot then about hardware interface incompatibilities, RAM timing, slots, and YOU WILL SAVE MONEY vs buying a prebuilt system from Dell or whomever AND YOU WILL GET TO LEARN EVERYTHING ABOUT how computers work.
Right tool for the right job.
If you want to truly learn “everything” about computers why don’t you take a college course in computer engineer, MIS, and computer science? You can even get an easy job afterward!
I have to ask, now that the world’s largest chain store carries a Linux-based computer, how they sell against the pricier comparable windows systems? Hell even WebTV had buyers.
note, I use both and advocate only whatever solves the problem for the “End-user.”
I can do a handstand with one hand. All those who can not are obviously inferior and need to “RTFSTB” RTF Strength Training Book.
If you want to truly learn “everything” about computers why don’t you take a college course in computer engineer, MIS, and computer science? You can even get an easy job afterward!
Makes me allways laugh my guts out.You can have a PHD in computer science without ever having seen a non-windows machine.You can hack every machine on the planet with “only” a windows w2k/w3k PC.Ther’re a lot of things they can’t teach you at school.A college degree doesn’t say anything about your capabilities administring large networks or specific platforms.Fact is though fortunately master degree,phd degree holders in Information technology ( sorry just hate Computer science,they are just tools like a gun or a hammer is).
moooooooooooooooooooh
AND that’s why I mentioned AND… believe me I know a few “computer scientists”
Choice is good 4-5 Unix Flavors 4-5 BSD flavors 50+ Linux distros…see a problem?
“There are numerous distros out there that all have the same goal. The same software packages are packaged in lots of different ways. There’s lots of good work being done by different people to achieve the same thing. Just think. Imagine if all those people were working together on the same project. The work would be done much better and faster.”
I don’t agree. They’re not trying to do the same things. We were talking about Arch and Slack the other day – are they trying to do the same thing as Mandrake and Fedora? No. They’re all enabling Linux on the desktop, but not in the same way. I doubt Arch *or* Mandrake users would be very happy if the projects merged, and I doubt it’d produce a better product for anyone.
>What – minimum of 3 isos?
ISO’s…Pffftttt thats so 90’s. We all have broadband now so we don’t make our own CD’s…we install directly off of mirrors.
How to install Fedora Core 3 without wasting time downloading and burning any CD’s(except below).
1) Download this 5 MEGABYTE file and burn to a CD. Should take all of 5 minutes from download to complete cd in your hand.
ftp://ftp-stud.fht-esslingen.de/pub/Mirrors/fedora.redhat.com/linu…
2) Then boot with the cd in and choose the ftp install option.
3) When it asks for a FTP mirror location enter your fravoriate one from the list here: http://fedora.redhat.com/download/mirrors.html
4) Complete the install just like you had burned all the CD’s…and its faster if you ask me because you dont have to change CD’s you can start the install and walk away.
5) Profit!
That’s why I buy all my audio CDs at the corner truck stop, and not at some mega-store like Virgin. I just get so confused. It’s almost like I don’t know what kind of music I like.
By limiting my choices, I’m much more comfortable.
:-/
Read carefully what I said there: “trying to force people…”. What i’m trying to say is this: there are a lot of people in this world who want to see MS dead and that the gap be filled with OSS software only.
There’s nothing wrong with wanting MS dead (or diminished, at least) – after all, MS itself has actively worked to put other companies out of business. What’s good for the gander is good for the goose. However, there is a difference between wanting a reduction in MS’s market share, even to the point of taking legal action against the company, and forcing people to use OSS (or any software, for that matter). Even if Windows only had a 5% market share, if it wasn’t compatible with all hardware and that the most popular office suite wasn’t available for it, you’d still be free to use it.
The only thing that can even remotely amount to forcing people to use OSS would be to pass laws forcing manufacturers to intall only OSS on their PCs, and no one – not even RMS – wants to take such a course of action (which would be unfeasible anyway).
I understand your clarification, but I still think that people wanting MS dead can’t be wrong, because of freedom of speech and opinion. Enacting laws reducing choice, or blackmailing manufacturers MS-style, now that would be wrong.
As you quite clearly state you have to burn at least one CD. Now we just need more floppy installations, such as debians true net installs without burning “any” CDs, 2 floppy disks required though.
“Many parts are edible”
Euell Gibbons
There is no problem with 5000 distros, the cream rises and the chaff fall by the wayside. Someone has an idea, thinks they can arrange it better, integrate it tighter, specializing in something, whatever and poof, another distro is born to rise or fall on it’s own merits. Why some incredibly anal control freaks have a problem with this is beyond logic. That we can just jump ship and do our own thing without anwering to anyone just seems to drive them crazy. Freedom is the means and the end.
and wath do you learn about that no more than you learn during a gentoo install.
you will learn as much of powerplants buy pluging a vcr to the wall outlet
Dizz you missed my point:
The same people who claim that they “enjoy” installing Gentoo and other difficult to install operating systems also complain about Dell or other OEM’s not offering a “blank” PC with no operating system.
My point was that if they TRULY were interested in learning about the “innards of my computer” they should learn about it from a proper place with FULL instruction, not some install that requires a paper manual.
To those people, I was telling them, since there is no GUI installer for Gentoo, and they somehow see that having to learn how to install Gentoo via CLI, is a good thing with the side effect being that they now “fully understand” how a computer works—should go out and buy a computer in pieces. It will be cheaper, it will allow them “further their computer knowledge” and windows doesn’t come with blank harddrives.
Gentoo does not have a gui installer. Some elitests feel that being force to write down / figure out how your IRQ’s and memory address ranges are organized, JUST SO THAT YOU CAN INSTALL an os, some how makes you “knowledgeable” about computers and how they operate.
They had a problem: tough to install OS, they solved it by going through all the toughness and called it a learning experience.
I say to those same people, your problem is that you can’t get a pre-assembled PC without windows — then go through the hassle of buying all the parts (it will save you $$$) and will make you “more knowledgeable” about computers.
Some people perfer the hardway, because doing things the hardway somehow equates experience.
“It is admirable to see at least one indivudual in the IT-industry, who feels – although in a bit naive and childish manner – that computing should be something else than sucking your customers dry with semi-working products and force feeding them features that they don’t need.”
A lot of us feel that way, which is why we’re employed as in-house corporate programmers, sysadmins, and other positions which have nothing at all to do with the commercial software industry…
I’ve installed Gentoo several times, and there are detailed, accurate instructions that you need to follow precisely, but even if you didn’t understand Linux what so ever you could most likely have a functional gentoo system up and running if you followed the instructions exactly.
At that point you would have a fully functional gentoo system in which it would be no different than any other linux system with drop-dead easy software installation.
If you really want to understand how a system works, then LFS would be a better alternative because it most likely teachs you the boot process much better.
Even if you don’t have linux on a system you can learn about the ELF format, dynamic linking, the init process for linux, kernel modules, and a million other things.
Gentoo does give you more control over your system with make flags…of course you can always install dpkgs or rpms from source too.
If you really want to know the nitty gritty details of how computer systems work, then you should study compiler theory, how kernels work, filesystems, hardware at the lowest levels.
as someone who works in the real world,
let me make some comments:
about installers,
picking a “distro” based on a long and hard install, does not make you “more Knoweldgeable” it makes you stupid,
am all for a minimal install ala debian, and almost every distro offers it. there is no reason to waste time and effort
messing with driver settings, irq, memmory address ranges and other junk like that.
in the “real world” its all about getting the machine back up as fast as possible, or creating a base image on the fly quickly, and messing with the these “hard installs” is just silly. now adays there is no reason for it, and no company will support it. (in the real world u need to have some kind of “support” available wether you use it or not)
frag:
and I aggree with Linus here, have every distro excately the same is not good, but having all the distros compatiable is good. which is what we have and what we will have in the future. becuase its in the best interests of everyone involved.
there are already things like the LSB (linux standards base) to ensure things stay compatiable.
having each “distro” have its own little “flavor” is good,
-Nex6
Just think. Imagine if all those people were working together on the same project. The work would be done much better and faster.
—–
And we would only have one solution…which wouldn’t always be the best solution for all problems.
Good software is about ideas.
Gentoo does not have a gui installer. Some elitests feel that being force to write down / figure out how your IRQ’s and memory address ranges are organized, JUST SO THAT YOU CAN INSTALL an os, some how makes you “knowledgeable” about computers and how they operate.
You are utterly clueless about Gentoo and have obviously never used it. I’ve installed Gentoo on 6 different computers now and have yet been forced to “figure out how my IRQ’s and memory address ranges are organized”. The really hilarious part of your argument is that if you really had to do all that to get Gentoo working I would think that you DID learn something about computers.
Gentoo doesn’t teach you about computers during the install. No one really claims that. Installing Gentoo via the handbook introduces you to common linux concepts and explains how they should work for your system. I do think it is a learning experience. I know a lot of people who installed Gentoo without ever really touching the command line before. They musty have learned something or they wouldn’t have fully functional Gentoo systems now.
I saw this and thought a little disk fragmentation was ok
I would like to see other variants of the 2.6 kernel competing with the current 2.6 line. The competition should force the current kernel maintainers to kick it up a notch.
By the way, the *BSD crowd did this years ago (OpenBSD, NetBSD, Dragonfly, etc…) and the BSD kernel is more stable than the Linux kernel.
Let the CVS branching begin!
…I call it specialization and differentiation…and like it.
Linux is fragmented and thus suffers. There is such thing as too much freedom too many choices that hamper ease of use. All distros should either store programs into one repository for easy “click and run” or put the burden on devs like windows does. I prefer the second choice because there is no lag there. For good read, read the autopackage author’s website. He’s dead on.
Choice is good 4-5 Unix Flavors 4-5 BSD flavors 50+ Linux distros…see a problem?
Yes, i see a problem in your line on reasoning. There aren’t “4-5 Unix flavors” and you haven’t specified what you exactly mean with “Unix”. Here’s a Unix timeline: http://www.levenez.com/unix/ — please notice the utter fragmentation. Perhaps you’ve never read analysis on how Microsoft became so succesful in the first place. I encourage the reader to read such analysis (the ones i read involved the Unix fragmentation).
As for ‘too many choice’; then you simply are less sure wether you use the right tool for the right job. But you never were sure on that in the first place and not being sure on that or not using the best tool for the right job is not inherently Evil. Why would it be, if it does it Good Enough? This is the same for individuals: we all have our preferences which is limited to X numbers on subject Y simply because we aren’t able to specify it more due to a lack of time and/or money. This means we have to lower our scope to chose. Even when one does decide to invest more time and/or money then he/she will be less picky with other choices to be made. In the end, humanity limits itself automatically (wether, on individual basis knowfully, or not). I, for one, care more about what food i exactly eat (and therefore prepare ~ solely fresh food) than who delivers my electricity and wether its ‘Green’ electricity, or not (which i heard, in the end comes from the same line
. I also agree that too much choice can be a burden, but i experience that not with Linux and others are also experiencing this in society in general because its the result of too much choice…
Imagine if all those people were working together on the same project. The work would be done much better and faster.
The problem is just because there’s a million people out there adding 2 and 2 that doesn’t mean they could be put together to calculate 2^million.
5) Profit!
What do you suggest to those people who have to pay per MB, especially when the ftp is foreign and foreign MB’s are more expensive?
While constructive critism is good, these critics fail to see the dynamics of fragmentated projects. At a point of excess fragmentation only those fragments with outstanding features rise out of the myst of projects, those who are just fragments become Yet Another X. Basically it’s almost like an evolutionary process of software development.
While fragmentation (or ‘choice’) isn’t a bad thing, it should be hidden from a typical end-user. Gnome v KDE, etc. are choices that will make a new user’s eyes glaze over.
Lack of centralized information (what distros are available, what is the maintainer’s goal, etc.) and bad documentation (mostly) will continue to keep Linux from a mainstream user.
Complex options should be available; basic options should be visible.
”
What do you suggest to those people who have to pay per MB, especially when the ftp is foreign and foreign MB’s are more expensive?
”
http://www.linuxcd.org
”
While fragmentation (or ‘choice’) isn’t a bad thing, it should be hidden from a typical end-user. Gnome v KDE, etc. are choices that will make a new user’s eyes glaze over.
Lack of centralized information (what distros are available, what is the maintainer’s goal, etc.) and bad documentation (mostly) will continue to keep Linux from a mainstream user.
Complex options should be available; basic options should be visible.
”
Yeah, but toss a new user that doesn’t care about choice on a Linspire system. They get KDE whether they like it or not. They get Mozilla whether they like it or not. They get Gimp whether they like it or not. And more is of course available at the click of a button.
Not everyone who just wants to use their computer sits staring at distrowatch wondering what distro they will put on their computer. Linspire and Xandros for a new user that wants point and click is pretty standard.
There seems to be some confusion about fragmentation as in differnet distros or applications, and fragmentation as in the Linux kernel being forked or branched into a seperate code base.
Code fragmentation:
The article fails to mention that open source competition is not like conventional competition.
The license under which the code is released means any fragmentation of the code is not kept secret and is legally available to be incorporated by competitors. Unlike other licenses, we do not have to worry about a) Spending a lot of effort trying to reverse engineer things b) the legal implications of this.
Distribution fragmentation:
We are not talking about different ways of doing things, we’re talking about different implementations of the same thing.
Competition is definitely good for evolution.
Independence is definitely good for long term survival.
As long as there are standards between the different implementations, you have the benefits of both worlds.
I made my 3rd computer from discrete components – processor, memory, videocard, HDD, etc.
I can’t say i became a hell more knowledgeable.
When i installed linux, i *did* understand and learned a lot.
Yes I did install Gentoo.
If you have never heard someone spout that malarky, then you ought to spend 5 minutes in my shoes.
I fail to see the point of installing it from a phase 3 CD. Isn’t the whole purpose of Gentoo to make everything faster by compiling it for your specific machine?
I don’t have a problem with the OS, just with people who make excuses for a difficult to use device, or method of doing something. All of a sudden difficult = learning experience (it is only if you succeed, you learn “boy, that sure sucked–hope I don’t have to do it again”)
I’m so off topic I don’t know why I even posted.
You’re quite right; I knew extremely little about Gentoo and it’s only now, after I’ve had the system running for about half a year, that I actually understand what I was doing back then. It coulda been magic, for all I knew.
And when I’ve convinced friends to try Linux, I tell them to try Knoppix or SuSE or something like that, because I know when stuff breaks it takes me a while to sort it out (nVidia kernels, mostly)