Novell is embarking on an “eat your own dog food” project in which it will eventually migrate all of its 6000 employees worldwide to SuSE Linux (and drop MS Office for OpenOffice). The company’s Australian employees will be the advance guard. Many of them have already been using OpenOffice for some time, and the transition has been relatively smooth. According to the article, “Using a custom set of technologies which read Windows users preferences into SuSE after a dual-boot installation, the average desktop can be migrated in less than an hour.”
Well, I would hope that Novell use what it sells!
So Linux is ready for some desktop PC… Those 6000 employees don’t realy have the choice, like it or not. This is a wierd way to increase market share….!!
For me, moving to Linux would not be a huge problem (in the office, not at home) but dropping MS Office for OpenOffice, that would be harder. I realy do prefer MS Office. It’s a personal choice.
“So Linux is ready for some desktop PC… Those 6000 employees don’t realy have the choice, like it or not. This is a wierd way to increase market share….!!”
its not about market share. just dog fooding
For me, moving to Linux would not be a huge problem (in the office, not at home) but dropping MS Office for OpenOffice, that would be harder. I realy do prefer MS Office. It’s a personal choice. ”
so use it. crossover runs ms office pretty good. wait for openoffice 2.0. thats bound to change a few things
I just came from a Novell ZENworks class and this was mentioned. It seems that a lot of Novell’s top engineers and trainers are fighting this because their primary documentation app (Framemaker) won’t run in Linux.
“It seems that a lot of Novell’s top engineers and trainers are fighting this because their primary documentation app (Framemaker) won’t run in Linux.”
i believe that framemaker runs very well under crossover office. suse already has a license
Crossover is a good app but they could always go to Scribus for Linux. I laready use OpenOffice on Windows so why migrate my Windows employees at work over to Linux? They l;ike what they use and believe it or not I have no problems with the Windows desktops/servers I administer. A lot of my customers run MySQL and Apache on Windows, as another reader wrote its about dog fooding, “Yeah sure we have a Linux distribution but we just deploy Windows just because” Doesnt inspire much trust in the product.
So who gives a shit about whether framemaker runs in Linux, which it does through Wine.
Use the rigth tool for the job, Lyx or LaText is what you should be using to write documentation. If they absolutely want to use a framemaker-like tool, use Scribus, which is based on the same user-interface paradigm and interaction process.
Stop whining.
It used to be that Linux was not ready for the destop because __________ (fill the blank) with one from below:
1) No good email client or PIM (Kontact, Evolution)
2) No good browser (Mozilla, Firefox, Konqueror)
3) No good office software (OpenOffice, KOffice)
4) No good genealogy software (G.R.A.M.P.S)
5) No good Multimedia (Totem, JuK, MPlayer, Ogle)
6) No good DVD-CD writing software (k3b)
7) Instant messaging (Kopete, GAIM)
8) File Transfer (Kbear, FTP)
9) Finance Software (Kmymoney, GNUCash, MoneyDance)
10) Educational software for kids (Tons of title from the keduca group)
Add to the above, the wonderful integrated applets for whether and dictionary or sound control or the power of the console.
People need to stop making excuses. Linux is ready. Are you?
My hands are too tired to continue typing. If you are overpaying for your software, worried about viruses and yet continue to act like a battered wife that is fearful of living the OS that they are so detrimentally attached to, you can have a better life. Just try it.
WOW! Right on. I have had that same exact argument about a 100 times at work with people (advocating dropping MS XP and all the super expensive software we pay for) and that is ALWAYS THEIR FIRST FRIGGIN’ RESPONSE!!! “Oh, but no software runs on Linux” or “No software runs on Mac OS X” or fill in whatever other OS you prefer.
Mike
Framemaker runs under Solaris. It shouldn’t take much to port it to Linux, if Adobe wanted to. Of course, Abode’s been pretty hostile to Linux, but maybe Novell can change their minds.
It’s only a matter of time before Microsoft decides that Adobe’s market should belong to Microsoft, like every other Windows ISV before them. Sure, the Linux market for commercial applications isn’t big now, but there’s a lot less competition there than in the Windows and Mac markets. Adobe needs to wake up and support Linux. If they don’t, it’s only going to drive the development of Free replacements.
Disney already paid Codeweavers to support Photoshop under Linux. How many clues does Adobe need to recognize a market?
Remember when Adobe had a beta?
http://www.linuxmednews.com/linuxmednews/970180469/index_html
Didn’t last long.
I support Novell’s move and I relate to the tech writers on the FrameMaker. To compair Scribus or LaTeX to Frame and suggest that those who make a living using this tool shows how ignorant you are about the different products and what they are designed to do.
LaTeX is not an application but a type setting system composed of may different tools. LyX is an application that adds a layer of abstration between the user and the LaTeX tools but its not FrameMaker. It does not provide them the functionallity they need.
Scribus is a DTP tool similar to InDesign, PageMaker, Quark etc… but again this is not a subsitute for FrameMaker. People who make a living using DTP tools will tell you that InDesign is not designed to create books or technical manuals. Its great for magazines, newspapers, etc…
Please before you open your mouth about what apps someone should use learn what that persons does, learn what the different tools are designed for, use the apps for an extended period of time, and then make a recomendation.
When you guys have spent some time in the real world you will understand that there is alot more to chaning your environment then loading a new OS on you box. Companies have spent alot of time implementing processes and many of those processes depend on the functionallity of specific software.
How many manuals, tech documents has Novell developed in FrameMaker? what version contorl software do they use? How does that tie into the application? Do you convert your old FrameMaker projects to TeX/LaTeX? If so how do you go about doing this? Which tool should you use for your conversion TeXShop, TeXCentirc, vi, EMACS, notepad, kate? What about the workflow? How do I convert an EDD to a LaTeX template?
If I’m paying my tech writers $30/hr what will it cost to convert/re-type one 1,000 page document into LaTeX, format it, proof it, etc…? Do I continue to use Rational ClearCase for configuration management or do I switch to CVS. How do I port my revisions over and keep the same revision numbers? How do I coordinate the conversion to CVS and LaTeX at the same time.
Training, Where do I send my people who have spent 10+ years using Frame to get LaTeX training? If no one offers LaTeX training what is it going to cost to get someone in house who knows it, can develop a training course and traing the 100+ tech writers on the tool. What pot of money do I have my tech writers charge their time to while in training? I obviously can’t have them billing thier time against a contract that they aren’t contributing to. 100 tech writers at $30/hr times 160 hrs of training = $480,000 just to pay thier salaries. Where does that money come from? That’s approximatly 9,600 boxed copies of SuSE @ 50 USD a copy.
You can only see one small pice of the issue becuase you are young and lack experaince. Its easy to say use a real tool use LaTeX if you don’t know what you’re talking about. Until you can provide real answers to real problems you should probably keep your mouth shut, othewise you just show everyone your ingnorance.
If Adobe did go through the process of re-implementing Frame for Linux based on the Solaris code base, what should they charge for the product. You figure six months to do the conversion, beta test it, work out the bugs, brining it up to FM 7.1 specifications…..
The Windows version runs ~ $800 USD, Solaris $1,600 USD for a single user copy. Mac OS version was dropped due to the lack of sales. If I have just purchased updates to my FM 7.1 for Windows how do I justify the cost of purchasing 100+ new versions for Linux. Keep in mind that Adobe does not allow you to buy version upgrades to go from one platform to another. You have to buy all new software meida and licenses, which they charge for seperatly. That’s $160,000 USD.
For folks who haven’t heard of that term:
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000012.html
If the tech writers need Framemaker on Windows, let them keep their existing desktops and continue working as they always have. Deploying Linux on the desktop doesn’t have to be an either or choice. In fact, I’m betting Novell is also partially doing the conversion so they can gain experience that they can use when converting paying clients later on. Most clients won’t go to a 100% Linux solution anytime soon, so testing Windows interoperability in a Linux office setting is also a valid goal in itself.
Stop taking cheap shots at people trying to make the problem more difficult than it really is. Your post perfectly illustrates the problems of software lock-in.
Had Novell used software whose file protocols are documented, they could output their content to a thousand file formats. What can you get out of Lyx to name one application. Well, you can get PDF, Postcript, SGML, text, HTML, etc…
If I were trying to chart a new course, I would create an archive of existing projects, and establish the new policy as a forward looking one. You can use a combination of Plone, as a content-management and cvs system with Lyx, Latext or even OpenOffice to do the job.
The job of a tech writer is to write text. In the context of software much of that text changes rapidly so that text reusability isn’t as high a concern. I have worked as editor of technical magazines, a translator and have published a few books of my own, so I am quite familiar with the writing process.
The problem with people like you is that you cannot understand how strongly the flame of freedom burns and, frankly, it scares you. It scares you to have to learn to do new things. It scares you to have to challenge yourself. I live to challenge those that work under my supervision and to be challenged in turn. You can do the right thing and be profitable. In fact, as a generation of more informed citizens emerges, and that generation is being brewed right now, they will not want to deal with unethical companies.
One last point to bring a little business focus to my normatively guided remarks. The longer you stay hooked to your proprietary world, the more expensive it becomes to get out of it.
Unfortunately, you picked a very bad example to make a case for the costs of switching from proprietary software as this particular application can be run under Wine. But even if it couldn’t, the arguments for switching would remain equally strong.
Exactly!
I’m ready.Two from three machines in my home are running exclussively Linux. I don’t talk about the router (which uses also slackware), but desktops for me & my wife. The other machine is entirely dedicated to games. Have a dual boot with XP & Slackware. Just in case something goes wrong with Win partition.
“Using a custom set of technologies which read Windows users preferences into SuSE after a dual-boot installation, the average desktop can be migrated in less than an hour.”
THAT’s the interesting part. I wonder how effective this is and what the limitations of this “custom set” are?
“Using a custom set of technologies which read Windows users preferences into SuSE after a dual-boot installation, the average desktop can be migrated in less than an hour.”
It sounds like a tool for Windoze which will monitor your movements with input devices like mouse&keyboard to determine what preference settings KDE/Gnome/brandX would need to be set in SuSe to make the user feel most at home. E.g. if the tool notices the users are single-clicking all the time in their Windoze desktop, then set that option correspondingly in the SuSe preferences.
Sounds waaaaayy cool! No more trying to figure out for days which of the dozens of preferences you like best. Or am I just getting ahead of things here?
It sounds like a tool for Windoze which will monitor your movements with input devices like
Umm… isnt it easier to just read the damn registry settings?
Cool anyways. And maybe they will open source it.
Only problem I see here is that desktops like KDE have far more customisable features than Windows – so only a subset of preferences can be migrated…
Regards,
Shaitan
Use the rigth tool for the job, Lyx or LaText is what you should be using to write documentation.
You have written a lot of techinal documentation for large companies haven’t you? Well, here’s a surprise: None uses LaTeX.
Just because you heard some stuff as every Unix newbie does about LaTeX and the “TeX way” doesn’t mean you know s**t about documentation writing (or typesetting for that matter).
Matter of fact: almost NO professional publishing house uses LaTex or Tex. It’s only used for academia and journals.
It seems to me that the solution for a large corporation or organization, that is migrating to a Linux desktop, but still has important applications that are Windows only that do not run satisfactorily on Wine is Rdesktop.
They could maintain a few Windows 2000/2003 servers to distribute, with windows terminal services, these applications on a thin client basis to Linux desktops running Rdesktop inorder to display the app in a window on X. Being centrally controlled would simplify administation of the Win apps compared to a client side solution using Wine/Win4lin/Vmware and and also keep control of the licensing of MS and other proprietary software.
There is no better way to find the problems with a product that to put it in the hands of the use. By Novell forcing their staff to switch to their own products, Novell will gain valuable experience that will hopefully translate to better products and support.
“or drinking your own champagne”
“Had Novell used software whose file protocols are documented, they could output their content to a thousand file formats.”
Do you actually know what FrameMaker is and what it outputs?
The Linux advocates are making a mountain out of a mole hill. Novell is using Linux on their desktops because its their product. Duh. Notice how they are only doing it in Austrilia which is one of their smaller operations. Its ready for some, but not all. I have a dual boot at home, and Linux IS NOT ready for MY desktop. Between it locking up on hardware detection, locking up on the mouse, the fonts being hard to read, and trying to compile several libraries and troubleshoot why applications won’t compile, I’d have to say its definitely not going to be my primary OS.
I’m curious how moving to a Linux desktop is going to affect the production of the Novell Client for Windows. Wouldn’t they need Windows around for that?
They are NOT just deploying it in Australia, they are doing it corporate-wide. Australia is simply the first of many divisions.
BTW, you may have an easier time with a distribution with real package management. If you can’t handle compiling (I know, it’s not for everyone) go with another distribution.
I’ve never had any linux distro lock up on ME during hardware detection… i’ve never had a linux distro lock up on me when using stable hardware, for that matter.
Any organization who is willing to convert all their desktops to Linux/Openoffice is significant, whether it is their product or not.
Between it locking up on hardware detection, locking up on the mouse, the fonts being hard to read, and trying to compile several libraries and troubleshoot why applications won’t compile, I’d have to say its definitely not going to be my primary OS.
Sorry, but that doesn’t happen. Use a commercial distro and install it properly and you will not need it to compile or configure anything. If you’re using a DIY distro like Debian or Gentoo then you’re going to need to do things yourself – can you imagine building or installing Windows, Office and everything else from scratch? No. Did you ever need to install Windows yourself for the first time? Almost certainly not.
I’m curious how moving to a Linux desktop is going to affect the production of the Novell Client for Windows. Wouldn’t they need Windows around for that?
Yes, that’s why it’s Novell Client for Windows. Presumably they would have a Novell Client for Linux.
Eu, I’m not taking cheap shots just pointing out the facts. The facts, which you have shown repetitivly, are not experainced enough to understand. I dont’ see where you got the idea that I was scared. I use Linux and have been since 1996. I’m also a certified HP-UX admin, administer a hand full of Solaris systems, own two OS X systems at home, and run XP on my desktop at work. I’ve seen software come and go, have been envolved in many migration and re-engineering efforts in the private, commercial, and government sectors. I enjoy change, think that its a good thing, but also know it comes with a cost. You have to understand thoes costs and how to deal with them before undertaking such a major endevor.
The point that I’m making, which you complete missed, is migrating a companies desktop environment to another OS, regardless of the OS they choose, is not as simple as loading the OS and saying here it is. People who are experainced in doing large system migrations understand this. People such as yourself haven’t a clue in hell as to the effort such a migration takes, or costs.
You have to take into account the processes companies have put in place to make them ISO and/or CMMI compliant. There is alot more to migrating a FrameMaker project to LaTeX then just saving it to PDF. Again making a suggestion like this just shows your ignorance and lack of expriance. You need to get yourself some real world experaince before making recomendations, becuase someone who may have even less experiance than yourself may take that suggestion and get themselves into a much bigger mess than they or you are ready to clean up.
I am using Fedora Core 2. It does have package management. However the applications I want to use did not have binaries provided, nor did yum. Thus I must compile from source.
David, yes it does happen. Come over sometime and I will show you that it happens.
I love it when advocates get tunnel vision.
“I am using Fedora Core 2. It does have package management. However the applications I want to use did not have binaries provided, nor did yum. Thus I must compile from source.
David, yes it does happen. Come over sometime and I will show you that it happens.
”
sometimes yes. check fedoratracker.org thou before you decide and the infrastructure is just being made available. in a couple of months expect more packages
Microsoft Windows & Office aren’t ready for my desktop!
Try this:
1) Open Outlook
2) Open Excel or Word
3) From Excel or Word, select File -> Send To -> Mail Recipient
What goes wrong:
A) Outlook disappears from the ALT-TAB function.
B) The only way to Outlook is the Task Bar.
C) Once in Outlook, nothing works.
Try this:
1) In Excel or Word, write a macro that takes several minutes to run and run it.
What goes wrong:
A) The entire [Start Menu]/Task Bar quits working!
I have a lot of problems in Windows trying to multi-task. Everytime I start doing something and get distracted and have to lookup something else quickly, some application doesn’t work because some other application is using part of it.
What goes wrong:
A) Outlook disappears from the ALT-TAB function.
B) The only way to Outlook is the Task Bar.
C) Once in Outlook, nothing works.
Until you send or close the message you started with step 3 previously. Why this happens, I don’t know, but then I wouldn’t have noticed it if you hadn’t pointed it out. The same is true if you use “Send To->Mail Recipient” from anywhere else in the OS, as well.
What goes wrong:
A) The entire [Start Menu]/Task Bar quits working!
That’s good to know, I think I’ll avoid writing macros that take several minutes to run (then again, I haven’t done so yet).
We can all find little things in every OS that bother us if we look hard enough. The benefit on the open source side is that, if you’re a good programmer, you can fix it yourself rather than waiting for someone to fix it for you (after you submit a bug report). Of course, if you don’t know the code well enough to fix it yourself, you’re back to submitting a bug report.
I have a lot of problems in Windows trying to multi-task. Everytime I start doing something and get distracted and have to lookup something else quickly, some application doesn’t work because some other application is using part of it.
I guess I’m not easily distracted, as I rarely experience this under any recent OS, and I probably interact with Win2k and XP more than any other system (as opposed to setting a system up and just letting it do it’s thing, or logging in remotely from a Windows machine). My biggest issue with Office tends to be that Word and Excel (the 2 most used applications in the suite for many people) behave differently with multiple documents open, so the behavior is inconsistent and often undesirable.
“You need to get yourself some real world experaince before making recomendations, becuase someone who may have even less experiance than yourself may take that suggestion and get themselves into a much bigger mess than they or you are ready to clean up.”
Out of this forum!? Perish the thought. That’s like going to Slashdot for legal advice. I would think that anyone tasked with such a task would know better than take internet advice at face value.
Microsoft Windows & Office aren’t ready for my desktop!
Try this:
1) Open Outlook
2) Open Excel or Word
3) From Excel or Word, select File -> Send To -> Mail Recipient
What goes wrong:
A) Outlook disappears from the ALT-TAB function.
B) The only way to Outlook is the Task Bar.
C) Once in Outlook, nothing works.
I just tried it and didn’t experience the problems you had. Outlook was in my ALT-TAB and on the taskbar, and I was able to use Outlook. I guess Windows and Outlook will stay on my desktop. As for the macros, don’t know how to create them, so I won’t test that.
I am using Fedora Core 2. It does have package management. However the applications I want to use did not have binaries provided, nor did yum. Thus I must compile from source.
What are you installing things from source for? If it is newer packages you want, post to the Fedora community and see when they may be available then wait.
Above that, you said your mouse doesn’t work, the fonts are small and it locks up on hardware detection. This would be to do with the core installation, not the packages you have tried to install, unless you’ve tried to install these over the top of the Fedora install itself. You can get any number of problems there. Any other software install from source (graphical application etc.) will not be producing the results you describe. Fedora has had some issues, but that is no reason to blame other distributors or the validity of Linux itself for people who can get it working, or people who buy a commercial install.
I see these problems from people all the time even on Windows (installing drivers over the top of others, software, you name it). Windows isn’t really ready for the desktop sometimes and some people are just not ready for any sort of desktop…. Do you say Windows isn’t ready because you can’t get drivers or software installed? It happens.
I love it when advocates get tunnel vision.
Yer. Fedora Core is a community distribution. You’re going to have to look through the archives and find out what is causing this, as people will be having the same problems as you. It is free, but you have to take the responsibility yourself. You can’t just use a free distribution, throw your hands in the air and say it doesn’t work. Imagine if Microsoft released release candidates, beta, or even alpha, versions of their software to the public. To an extent, that’s what Fedora Core is. Most of the time it will be fine, but you need to be slightly prepared.
If you buy a commercial distro, as Windows itself is, then this will have underwent more testing (community distros are more bleeding edge) and you have comeback on the producer.
I love people who just don’t know the difference for love nor money.
altho this is a big deal for the folks who use this app, it is really not that big a deal to stop the user from going to a Linux workstation.
there are many things that they can do, these include:
windows terminal services, vmware, crossover,wine, dual booting.
which they could do until they standardized on a Linux solution
they could still use framemaker. and who knows maybe adobe could make a Linux version available in the future in which case they would just use the win version until then. not really that big a deal.
-Nex6
I’m not being a prick, I’m pointing out your obvious lack of experaince. If you truly had first hand experiance that was of any value you wouldn’t be so quick to blurt out a solution to a problem you don’t understand. Its one thing to migrate a mom-and-pop business from Windows to some other OS, Its a completely different situation migrating a company with thousands of users.
Not once have I siad that it couldn’t be done. And I’m not makeing excuses as to why you souldn’t do it. I’m simply stating that it takes time, planning, and money to make it happen.
I think that anyone who frequents this site is well aware of the fact that there are many FOSS solutions to commercial products. It was obvious from your first post that all you wanted to do was draw attention to yourself by spouting off what tools you think the uninformed masses should use vs. looking at the exceptions Novell’s tech writers were having to makig the switch.
Anyone who has experiance in this matter would know better then to open their mouth and offer the unsolicited advice before knowing the whole situation first. You don’t assume any ownership or responsibility for the consequences that may occure from your suggestions, otherwise you wouldn’t so carelessly make them.
When you guys have spent some time in the real world you will understand that there is alot more to chaning your environment then loading a new OS on you box. Companies have spent alot of time implementing processes and many of those processes depend on the functionallity of specific software.
Well then, you should also realize that whatever the difficulties, things have to get done in the real world. When Microsoft ended support for VB5 people had to re-write quite a bit of stuff to make sure things could still be supported – and that was mild. The choice is to get Framemaker up and running on Linux, or put a plan of action into effect to migrate what they have to an alternative and make it better. With open source software, and the expertise they have, Novell can do just that.
Training, Where do I send my people who have spent 10+ years using Frame to get LaTeX training? What pot of money do I have my tech writers charge their time to while in training? I obviously can’t have them billing thier time against a contract that they aren’t contributing to. 100 tech writers at $30/hr times 160 hrs of training = $480,000 just to pay thier salaries. Where does that money come from? That’s approximatly 9,600 boxed copies of SuSE @ 50 USD a copy.
If they have a good ten years of Framemaker experience then I would expect them to be able to use different kinds of software. If they can’t then there’s something wrong with them. No right-minded company spends that much money re-training people who have ten years of experience in anything. The vast majority of company training is done in-house; if you assume you have to spend on this basis then you’ve been taken for a serious ride in the past
.
A lot of internal training will have to go on here, and internal documentation produced, and that happens in any sizeable company anywhere.
The whole point of doing this is that Novell and Suse do have people in-house, and they will see how this translates to the outside world because it represents a huge business opportunity for them. They have the source of many applications, and the expertise – their users can have any of the features they want. It is an opportunity.
You have written a lot of techinal documentation for large companies haven’t you? Well, here’s a surprise: None uses LaTeX.
Not many people use Linux on the desktop either, and yet many people are starting to ask some serious questions
. What Novell is doing will go a long way to answering them.
Matter of fact: almost NO professional publishing house uses LaTex or Tex. It’s only used for academia and journals.
That’s because they don’t know about it, and no one has packaged it up and taken it forwards to them.
You have to take into account the processes companies have put in place to make them ISO and/or CMMI compliant. There is alot more to migrating a FrameMaker project to LaTeX then just saving it to PDF.
You’re completely right there, and of course this needs to be done. However, when something needs to be done I never cease to be amazed by how those processes can be changeg, moved and motivated by people – not technology. The technology is actually the easy bit. Those processes are going to have to change one day, and you need to be able to manage that. That is why Novell is undertaking this.
You need to get yourself some real world experaince before making recomendations, becuase someone who may have even less experiance than yourself may take that suggestion and get themselves into a much bigger mess than they or you are ready to clean up.
If they do then they weren’t good enough to start off with. This sounds like every shop I see buying into everything that Microsoft or another software vendor does. The result is a shambles, as always.
The $480,000 is not the direct cost of training, its just to pay thoes 100+ individuals salary while they are in traininging. You can’t expect them not to get paid while they are going through training do you?
If you take traiing your company is paying your hourly rate while you are in training + the cost of training materials + the trainers perdeum + the cost of the course. If you go offsite to a training center depending on the location add in each one of thoes idividuals travel expenses (food, transpartation, lodging, etc…). Its less expensive to bring the trainer to you then take the people to the trainer depending on the number of people taking the courses.
I agree that thoes processes will have to change, and that the people will need to learn new ways of doing things. All I’m saying is to do it on a large scale you are going to need to have a migration plan in place, expect for some hicups, expect for people to fight the change, expect for a % of your people to quit, and don’t expect to make it happen over night.
MIS is an overhead department, they exist to support and assist the people who bring in money. Without these people there is no need for the MIS. If you piss off the poeple who bring in the money and the quit be prepared to take a hit on your IT budget, which means no new toys, reduction in staff, etc…
As far as Frame goes, don’t expect to take a staff of people who have 10yrs Frame experaince and tell them they will be using LaTeX. You will get the one finger salute. Its like taking a run in the mill CPA and telling them they have to learn C++ to write a program that will post account information to the GL. It wont happen.
Frame on Linux is wishful thinking but I really don’t see the Adobe doing that. If anything they are working at discontinuing their Frame product and incorperating the structured document functionallity into ID. You would probably better off patitioning them to bring ID to Linux, but I don’t see that happening either.
Thirty dollars an hour is a reasonable rate. You’re not going to pay someone out of college with no experiance $30/hr., but if you’ve been in the business for awhile, 8-10 years, $30/hr is reasonable.
The same goes for programmers. If you are just comming out of college you should plan on 15$ – 20$. If you’ve been at it 8-10 years and haven’t hit the 70K mark you’re doing something wrong.
I’m pointing out your obvious lack of experaince.
I wouldn’t go around arrogantly telling people that they don’t know what they’re talking about when you’ve systematically misspelled the word “experience” every time you’ve used it…
I’m not proud, I’m an aweful speller and I know it. Life goes on.
As far as Frame goes, don’t expect to take a staff of people who have 10yrs Frame experaince and tell them they will be using LaTeX. You will get the one finger salute. Its like taking a run in the mill CPA and telling them they have to learn C++ to write a program that will post account information to the GL. It wont happen.
Perhaps you’re thinking of TeX rather than LaTeX (which is a large macro package which wraps TeX).
LaTeX is *very* easy to use, as long as you use the standard document classes. And also, as far as quality of typesetting; it just doesn’t get better than TeX/LaTeX (with the Computer Modern fonts of course).
“I am using Fedora Core 2. It does have package management. However the applications I want to use did not have binaries provided, nor did yum. Thus I must compile from source.”
Well there’s your problem right there. You’re using a very buggy distro. Try a more solid one like Debian, Suse or Mandrake. Or if Debian is too hard for you, try Libranet which is an easy to install Debian. Debian/Libranet will almost certainly have a package of the software you’re looking for.
that thoes processes will have to change, and that the people will need to learn new ways of doing things. All I’m saying is to do it on a large scale you are going to need to have a migration plan in place, expect for some hicups, expect for people to fight the change…
Tell me about it…
As far as Frame goes, don’t expect to take a staff of people who have 10yrs Frame experaince and tell them they will be using LaTeX. You will get the one finger salute.
That’s why managerial backing is important i.e. “Your jobs are on the line.” It is also important that the software is good enough and that the users are involved in the change. LaTeX is obviously good enough for a lot of things – what needs changing?
The Framemaker argument is a bit unrealistic at the moment though. They will probably just keep Framemaker on Windows until they work out what to do. The main target here I think is office workers and the moving of MS Office to Open Office, not the people who depend on a lot of specialist software. That comes later, and in any migration plan it is not sensible to talk about these cases first although you need to be aware of any knock-on issues.
Matter of fact: almost NO professional publishing house uses LaTex or Tex. It’s only used for academia and journals.
And there are ones who do. For example, take a look in the SuSE Handbook, or in C++ for Programmers (publisher: Academic Service) – they explicitly state they use LaTeX, on the copyright page. On the other hand, the only book I’ve seen that explicitly states it is typeset with FrameMaker is – isn’t it suprising – the Unix-Haters Handbook.
Note that I don’t know anything about professional typesetting, it’s just what I’ve seen.
Stop taking cheap shots at people trying to make the problem more difficult than it really is. Your post perfectly illustrates the problems of software lock-in.
Had Novell used software whose file protocols are documented, they could output their content to a thousand file formats. What can you get out of Lyx to name one application. Well, you can get PDF, Postcript, SGML, text, HTML, etc…
Get a clue. Potts wasn’t take a cheap shot. Many of those file formats weren’t even in existence at the time that Novell chose Frameworker for its documentation. You can’t simply wave your magic fairy wand and expect companies to ignore fundamental economics in search of the Linux Holy Grail. It doesn’t work that way, and the fact that you think that it’s a cheap shot to point out that it’s more complicated than just loading a new operating system is a good example of the immaturity of many Linux advocates. You’re not winning any friends with that approach. Try reality, instead.
Get a clue. Potts wasn’t take a cheap shot. Many of those file formats weren’t even in existence at the time that Novell chose Frameworker for its documentation.
I always find rebuttals more convincing when they get their facts straight. It’s “Framemaker”, not “Frameworker”. The fact that you used such an arrogant tone didn’t help, either…before harping on the “immaturity” of Linux advocates, perhaps you should take a long, hard look in the mirror.
Meanwhile, I did some research, and it seems that Novell had already been looking for a multi-platform alternative to Framemaker. Also, the software wasn’t used for all of their documentation. From Adobe’s site:
Novell, a leading provider of network software, chose FrameMaker+SGML as the core component of HelpWise, its hypertext authoring tool for creating online help systems. To facilitate group authoring, Novell used the Frame Developer’s Kit to link the program to an Oracle database.
Seems to me that Novell and Oracle could try to pressure Adobe into releasing Framemaker under Linux (if only through using winelib). If not, I’m sure Novell software engineers are busy writing scripts that will convert Framemaker documents to another (presumably open) file format.
It’s not a matter of “waving a magic wand”, but of eating your own dog food. Novell wants to make sure that their Linux offering will satisfy users’ needs, and so it begins by satisfying its own needs. In doing so, they’ll benefit all Linux users. This is great news.