Foul language, abuse, and threats brought by angry Linux advocates could be giving a good operating system technology a bad name, says CMP’s LinuxPipeline. Perens advises against abuse as well.
Extremist Linux Advocates Doing More Harm Than Good
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli
Zealots of any sort tend to do PR damage to the larger, more moderate group. Religious fundamentalist and hyper-fans of other sorts. Mac zealots also tend to give Apple a bad image as well, and many of my co-workers can’t shake the association with pimply kids. However, all that said how could this problem ever be conquered? I’d assume that most of these zealots are quite young, and isn’t likely to suddenly go away anytime soon.
I’ve seen the same thing in the OS/2 and Apple communities….one reason why I always liked the BeOS users. Here’s Jerry Pournelle’s take:
“IBM’s executives made it difficult, and Team OS/2 often made it unpleasant to write about OS/2; and eventually almost no one did.”
About 9 months ago I became so disgusted with Linux elitists that I decided Linux just wasn’t for me any more. I started looking seriously into FreeBSD as an alternative. (In doing so I discovered that their community really didn’t seem any less zealotic than Linux extremists.) So I ended up installing Windows XP and playing games for several weeks. After a while my disgust diminished and I was getting tired of playing games so I went back to Linux with a new attitude. I would just turn up the squelch a few more notches so I could ignore the zealots.
I think truth be told the zealots are fewer than they seem. They are just so loud and outspoken that they seem to be every where.
My temporary exodus from Linux wasn’t all bad though. I learned a lot more about FreeBSD than I had in my previous tinkerings with the OS, and I got my hands into Solaris x86 a bit. And while in Windows, I became a pretty good Flight Sim pilot.
The article quotes Rob Enderle as an IT authority. Try this out yourself: drop Rob Enderle into google. See how many sites describe Rob as a very inaccurate source of info in regards to Apple, Windows, Linux & IT. IMO, if the source stinks, then the article usually stinks too. In this case the first half of the article is quite poor and the later half is lacking hard evidence. It claims attacks are on the rise. Yes attacks on SCO seem to be more common but to assume that the FLOSS community is DDOS’ing SCO is a fallacy. This article is light on facts & evidence about attacks on SCO or threatening IT analysts & heavy on hyperbole.
Poor Journalism Doing More Harm Than Good.
I’ve seen the same thing in the OS/2 and Apple communities….one reason why I always liked the BeOS users.
Yup, because everything about BeOS was perfect, especially its users. Or do I misunderstand you, because for a moment I thought you were implying that the BeOS community was virtually immune to spewing flames and threats? *cough*male bovine excrement*cough*
Anyway, to be on topic, I think it’s simply a matter of a lot of egos fighting to come out on top. People want to be the best when it comes to Linux, so they put all the newbies down to feel better, because it is so easy to look and feel smarter than a newbie. At least that’s my theory, and I will agree that it makes everyone look bad when the vocal minority treats every new member like an A-hole.
Oh well, such is life I guess.
Would it be far to say that if you can’t name both advantages and disadvantages about a given platform, then you don’t know enough about it?
If that is true, what might this tell you about someone who loves Linux and hates Windows, or vice-versa?
That said, BSD rulz! (j/k)
The more i think about this the harder it is to sum up a response. If you look at apple, i think part of it is a Personality cult with Jobs, ( who lies quite frequently to my dismay and annoyance), and the press seems to be living in the same distortion reality field as some of the users. Of course the critics arnt much better
But then if you look at certain unix operating systems, Some asshole developers intentionally keep things obscure to prevent people from using the system without a proverbial trial by fire so of course those users that bother do it tend to be aggressively anti-new-user. I remember reading a BeOS developer/engineer discussing this and contrasting it with the beos community but i do not remember enough to link it, but it was quite interesting.
Linus Torvelds seems to lead by example; his quotes seem remarkably balanced and unraving.
No doubt if all software companies were seen to be nice and co-operative, some other perceived threat would be the target of all those Mr. Angrys; governments? The BSDs? The Telly Tubbies? People holding different opinions in the Linux community? I think the latter: it’s not uncommon for organisations of people with strong beliefs to fall apart when factions within them spend their energies attacking each other about some silly point of doctrine. So, by being there and saying what they say, companies like SCO and Microsoft are performing a service to the Linux community. Perhaps an award would be in order?
The C programming language was standardized and it made it possible to have a standard library. The document is available from ANSI’s online store. Anyway, if there was an issue over right and wrong regarding some program in question, this document served as a reference, along with the compilers documentation (not all compilers are standard compliant). Maybe in some technical environment this actually worked by solving an arguement, however in general the most effective approach was yelling and screaming. Whatever the majority of the group decided was correct drowned out the other side. In real life the loudest yelling and screaming made a lot of people convert to the group. This isn’t about right and wrong because discovering the truth requires too much work. It’s easier to hang ones hopes on one leader. In the case of Microsoft technology it is impossible to even find the truth because it is closed. In the Linux world most people will not search too far. The truth is that you have to go out there yourself and find the truth, but in most cases it’s not about the truth, it’s about trusting some leader.
Most niche OSes seem to breed zealots, although I think Linux zealots do more harm to their favourite OS than most.
Ask some newbie questions to Mac zealots and they’ll usually go out of their way to help you, they want to prove that Mac OS really is easier to use than the alternatives.
Ask similar questions to Linux zealots and if you’re luckly they’ll point you towards the correct man pages and config files. But a lot of the time you’ll just get a rant about ‘point and drool lusers’ and get told to RTFM, many seem to want to prove what 733T HaXXorz they are.
Another area of confusion and war is the subject of ‘language wars’. In this day and age, the language for some reason is more important than our systems. The language is given more credibility especially when no software is built yet in that language because it makes fairy tales more appealing. The goal of programming languages is not to build systems but to entertain people with stories.
The C++ language had trouble establishing it’s standard library unlike the C standard library (before there were systems), probably because vendors leaped into this mythical land of languages because there was money to be made here and all of the systems were built already.
There is strong evidence that a programming langauge requires some innovation to occur in some uncontrolled context in order to advance (sort of like nature or evolution). If a standards body tries to add new features, they often harm the language. Somehow vendors come out with new features like language extensions were mass produced in a factory or mill.
Maybe Linux users have a reason to be angry.
People may understand Linux is not just a more one alternative operating system. It is not a toy or something you use to be different. It is totally different from OS/2 or BeOS use.
Linux is the most successfull free (as freedom) software of the world. I use linux because of its cause and because of GPL, which gives me warranty of continuity. I don’t care if Mac OS X is more sexy or if Windows is better on domestic desktops. I want freedom !! I could use any *BSD also but I prefer Linux because it is better on desktops, more popular and I think that BSD permit abuses (by companies).
I think most of americans see linux only as a free (as beer) operating system, and they compare with MacOS X, BeOS, OS/2, etc. Europe and developing countries see Linux as a way to free of Microsoft and american imperialism on software.
Just so that you know. You might want to change that to “Perens advises”.
Having all the same operating system makes us weak. It’s just like being able to write one virus that is able to attack and wipe out millions of innocent people. I am hesitant to express this point of view, however I will state that quality software is software based on differentation. If there was a definition out there for ‘quality software’ than it would say that it’s software that supports differentation, end of story. Instead of a world of clones, life must have variety in order for it to be strong and able to handle a high degree of complexity and change –adaptation. I don’t believe that one vendor will make us stronger, but having only one choice makes us weak, and true innovation like I mentioned in the other post, it is not born in a controlled environment, it is spontaneous. In an environment that supports a high degree of differentation (quality software) we will have fertile ground for spontaneous innovation, not this narrow outlook and forced acceptance.
Humor me for a minute..
If you had the mentality of a doped up 15 y.o. and wanted to prove to the world how cool/smart you are what website would you attack? Sco, microsoft? Yes, cause they are sure to make the news and feed your feeble little ego.
I knew a kid (he was actually mid 20’s) Who loved to show everyone in IRC how he could dDoS yahoo servers or security focus. The point with him wasn’t cause he hated either site, its cause they were high profile. same reason they attack NASA and a host of others. I just wish people would not automatically assume its a linux zealot but allow the possibility its just another wannabe h4x0r who enjoys reading about himself or causing controversy. Lets not kid ourself historically this is the reason for these attacks 95% of the time.
And thats not an understatement. I’ve had a few (polite) email exchanges with him due to his past articles, and the guys dense and worst yet arrogant. I’m at work now and can’t dig up some choice quotes, but I’ll try later on. In email he seems reasonable and seems to agree that broad generalizations aren’t fair and yet far more often then not will do just that.
His technical grasp is weak, I’m no guru but I easily know more then he does and he’s been in the industry for considerably longer (or at least claims as such). He’s told by “those in the know” that x product performs like this compared to y, but never does any direct testing. He claims to like Linux but is turned off by the community (I can somewhat agree at times, but not all are zealots) but I wonder if he’s even installed it before. He’s either consistently paid by MS or some such (its easy to think that considering the consistent character of his writing, but I have my doubts) or he simply has a chip on his shoulder. Perhaps a mix of the two.
Everytime he writes on article on Linux he’s guarenteed traffic from the OSS and related sites (LinuxToday, OSNews, Slashdot, etc) which might be one primary reason for his writing, it /always/ gets attention. I groan everytime I see something he wrote, and while I try not to read it I find myself having to look anyways, like a freaking bad traffic accident. He is quite responsive to emails, which suprised me. Take what this “insider” says with a rather large grain of salt, considering the places his writings gets published I wonder what it would take for me to write something inflamatory and get it published in a major mag. If he can pull it off it can’t be that hard. Surely it would pay better then where I work now. 😛
You can not see innovation if you do not nurture the environment in which innovation can be found. You have too search and when it is time, than innovation will find you, not the other way around.
windows vs linux vs mac
intel vs amd
nvidia vs ati
c vs c++
gnome vs kde
gtk vs qt
xx linux vs xx linux
xx vs xx
where therere conflicts there are ZeaLoTS!!!!!!!!!!!!
One comment I’d like to add is that sometimes when a negative light is shed, it can ultimatly bring mass attention to somebody or some issue. Perhaps all this attention given to the zealots and their attacks on SCO will bring Linux into the mainstream in a way it could never have been done before. It just seems to me that the more these issues spring forth the more Linux seems to grow, dating back to the start of the whole SCO circus! Just look at such things in our media like violent video games, Marilyn Manson, and Janet Jackson at the Booby Bowl, er Super Bowl. The press gives so much attention to bad stuff that eventually they become what everyone wants to hear about and be involved with/in.
2004 is the year of Linux and Janet Jackson all the way!!!
I, too, think that the OS scene is kinda stagnant. No one seems to do OS research anymore. As much as I love Linux, its still just another Unix and Unix is hardly new. I’m not sure if I’d argue that BeOS was that unique, it seemed to me like a highly responsive/modern Mac OS in look and feel. Plan 9 seems very innovative, and VMS was too. What else? Whats the next major leap, something equivical as the GUI was to command-lines? Please don’t say 3D GUIs… 😛
A software systems innovation that fostered the design patterns search came form an architect (Christopher Alexander) of buildings and houses. He saw these patterns in architecture and now they are used widely in the design of software.
Why did this happen like that. How come Microsoft didn’t notice this point of view. Why does some architect who doesn’t know anything about sotware have an influence on it.
We’re lucky that he didn’t try to patent design patterns.
A vendor is the last entity on earth that you want to “innovate”. They will put on the handcuffs. At least when spontaneous innovation occurs, the inventor doesn’t apply for patents.
Yup, because everything about BeOS was perfect, especially its users. Or do I misunderstand you, because for a moment I thought you were implying that the BeOS community was virtually immune to spewing flames and threats? *cough*male bovine excrement*cough*
Thanks for proving my point. LOL
The author brings up excellent points – I have indeed seen quite a few Linux zealots cheering on the SCO attackers(incidentally, one of them has threatened to blow up a major building in the U.S. and the other one posted a picture of the Pentagon exploding while cheering). Zealots do nothing but rubbish the name of the community, and are the biggest reason why I don’t hang around most Linux communities(that, and the fact that I like doing things on my own).
Those who have argued that the author incorrectly characterises most Linux users as zealots is quite true. However, it brings to mind a thread at LinuxQuestions.org in the General forum. Someone posted a link to a satirical article at http://adequacy.org and almost everyone went bazooks, completely ignoring how stupid someone would have to be to even write such crap(at least, crap when taken at face-point. It’s quite funny when read in a humourous light). There’s a hidden zealot in each of us – it’s just that not all of us may show it. Come on, how many of us will take someone on when someone challenges our distro of choice?
I agree with whoever pointed out how balanced Linus’ comments are – as a matter of fact(I think I’ll be flamed and called a troll just because of this) – I consider both Linus Torvalds and Bill Gates to be my heroes, because they’re both nerds, who don’t make fools of themselves unlike certain…well, fools. 😉
If design patterns were patented than it would be illegal to use wrappers or fameworks, or proxies, etc. Only Microsoft is allowed to use wrappers. It’s illegal to write software.
Gentoo’s users are very similar to the Beos community – helpfull, friendly, not arrogant.
What about the threats that SCO made on Linux users? Or the false news publicity that CNN gives to create a negative image of IBM. I guess that those don’t count as zealot acts.
We are all zealots depending upon the point of view of the observer, especially over money issues.
In the end it all boils down to having control, and Linux offers more to the “systems developer” and now there are even a health variety of vendor solutions. You have to fight to protect your interests no matter what side you are on. Fighting is good. If you were to take away the anger than you would not be human. A human needs his anger. As Bjarne Stroustrup once told me, “you need to channel your anger toward something productive.” That’s all.
Aah but for some reason the very same type of people are attracted to Linux. I think it is mainly because of Linux’s image as a free OS. Free as in no charge and free as in free from the restrictions that burden closed source software.
It is definelty the revolutionary rehtoric that is going to keep Linux out of most small to medium size business’. They are run and owned by mostly conservitive people who feel they have a vested interest in the overall status quo.
Some of the rehtoric spouted by Linux zealots sounds like something that came out of politcal commisars mouth in Dr. Zhivago or Red’s.
Most of these people still remember Ma Bell. Calling Microsoft a monoply seems quite silly to them. They are aware that there are alternitives they just choose not use them.
“What about the threats that SCO made on Linux users?”
They give SCO and whosoever (MS?) is behind it a bad name; IBM must love it …. they are the inocent victim – the hero fighting the evil empire.
Nice publicity for them and, why not?, Linux
Ask similar questions to Linux zealots and if you’re luckly they’ll point you towards the correct man pages and config files. But a lot of the time you’ll just get a rant about ‘point and drool lusers’ and get told to RTFM, many seem to want to prove what 733T HaXXorz they are.
Funny, when I was a newbie and asked questions to other Linux users, I always got helpful answers, and not once was I told to RTFM. This is just myth, repeated over and over as gospel. The fact is that, by and large, the Linux community is quite helpful to newcomers. This is one of the things that kept me going with Linux once I started using it.
Are there immature Linux users out there? Sure, just like there are immature Windows and Mac users. There are also, I’m sure of it, paid provocateurs whose job it is to tarnish the image of the biggest threat MS has ever seen. It doesn’t take a lot of them to make a lot of damage, as the Enderle case demonstrates.
And if you think this is a “tinfoil hat” case, then take a moment to consider why anti-Linux interests wouldn’t engage in such behavior, especially when some of them already have a history of underhanded behavior. This kind of trick is nothing new – just do a search on the Reichstag fire for a classic examples. Also, labor movements often have to deal with agent provocateurs in their midst.
This happens, folks. There’s no reason why it wouldn’t happen in this case, especially when the largest IT company is involved, and that it risks losing a lot of money.
It is definelty the revolutionary rehtoric that is going to keep Linux out of most small to medium size business’. They are run and owned by mostly conservitive people who feel they have a vested interest in the overall status quo.
Except that those are the kind of people that don’t hang out in web sites and forums where OS advocacy or flame wars take place, and therefore won’t be exposed to this. So in fact it is pretty irrelevant to their decision.
On the other hand, if they were to consult these web sources, they’d immediately see that anti-Linux zealots are as bad – if not worse – and pro-Linux ones. Again, their decision wouldn’t be influenced either way.
There are plenty of factors why Linux adoption is slow (but growing, which is the important factor anyway). Zealotry is not one of them, despite Rob Enderle and his clear anti-Linux agenda.
I agree to a point.. but im not mad anymore… but for some os converts, who have had their boxen turned into zombie bots..had their data fried by virii, and experienced constant bsods, upgrade rape pillage and burn, as well as constant security patches(that render their os even more unstable) i can understand the anger.
Bill gates to gm: If your cars advanced as fast as our software, you would get 100 m.p.g, go 200 m.p.h, and weigh only 1000 lbs.
G.M. To the Billinator: right bucko, and if our cars were like your software they would run well sometimes, sometimes not, than they wuuld just stop working at all untill you shut them off than turned them on again.. and they would be recalled every 4 months for new parts so solve built in problems.
“One comment I’d like to add is that sometimes when a negative light is shed, it can ultimatly bring mass attention to somebody or some issue. Perhaps all this attention given to the zealots and their attacks on SCO will bring Linux into the mainstream in a way it could never have been done before.”
Great… Someone who believes any attention from the media is good stuff. Assume for one moment 95% or better of the people on the globe have NEVER heard of Linux. Care to bet what there first impression is going to be when they hear about an attack of some type and Linux all in one sentence?
The Linux community somehow has the notion the entire planet reads Slashdot. Oops… I forgot; 99.9% of the world has never heard of Slashdot either.(and couldn’t care less)
duh I almost missed it
They don’t hold a candle to the rabid fools who give the Mac community a bad name. I’ve only ever used a Mac, and I’ve used only OS X since the Public Beta. I’ve found that the VAST MAJORITY of Mac users are friendly, helpful, and considerate, especially to curious non-Mac users. Yes, we have a tendency to flame trolls, and we do defend Apple against uninformed attacks, but anyone will tell you that we are also Apple’s most vocal critics, especially when they do something we find distasteful (the Sherlock vs. Karelia’s Watson thing comes to mind). The general attitude is that Apple may have invented the Macintosh, but it belongs to US, they’re merely stewards.
Many of my fellow Mac users share my distaste for the ignorant frothing fools who like to spew insults at others, especially Wintel users, and our attitude is live and let live. Personally, I’m fscking sick and tired of these jackasses who make the rest of us look bad. Witness the poor guy who hoaxed us all last week by claiming to have gutted a new G5 and installed an Athlon motherboard. He received death threats for God’s sake! I tried sending him an email explaining that they don’t speak for the majority, in the same way that Al Qaida doesn’t represent Islam, but his mailbox was choked. Of course his lasting impression is that all Mac users are “nuttier than a fruit cake”. Wired News has the whole sad story if anyone is interested:
http://www.wired.com/news/mac/0,2125,62157,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_2
This kind of crap simply reinforces the general perception of Mac users, and it completely grinds my ass. All communities suffer when loud-mouthed idiots claim to speak on their behalf.
“About 9 months ago I became so disgusted with Linux elitists that I decided Linux just wasn’t for me any more.”
You realize that’s an absurd way to choose what OS you use, right? “I don’t like this OS because of the other people who use it.” WHAT?!
I don’t think it is fair to say that the people in the open-source community who react with such volitility are zealots. This is simply conservative people’s way of labeling them and thus marginalizing their viewpoint. The so called fanatics are acting so emotionally because at the heart of the matter are some truly valid complaints about society, technology, and big business. There are valid resentments against both SCO and Microsoft. And until the cause of these resentments go away, the anger and emotion will stay. In fact, I believe that many of these enraged people see Linux as a solution to their problems. And if you look at the larger socio-political context, you can see that it really is. I agree that their tactics don’t really help the movement, but I don’t think it hurts as much as the author would like people to believe. People will still use Linux regardless of a few emotional programmers. But I think that this is really a call for stronger leadership in the community to better direct people’s feelings into something more positive. But that will never happen as long as this viewpoint is contantly being invalidated due to everyone’s fear of strong convictions.
Hmmm I didn’t know that was a hoax. I thought the guy was an idiot and I’ve never touched a Mac. I’ve got better things to do then tell him though.
Still who wouldn’t mod a sexy Mac case to PC if they had one? You just don’t rip a dual G5 out to do it.
You realize that’s an absurd way to choose what OS you use, right? “I don’t like this OS because of the other people who use it.” WHAT?!
No, not really. It’s nice to ask for help and get a useful answer instead of either being told to “RTFM!!” (especially after you have clearly demonstrated the extent to which you’ve seeked the answer on your own) or being dehumanized with snide, condescending answers where the person “helping” you just states the obvious and offers no real help.
“Enderle said that his family has been threatened, and Laura DiDio, an analyst for The Yankee Group in Boston ” who suggested last summer that the SCO Group may have a case ” was also threatened.”
These writers publish articles full of FUD and trollish commentary regarding Linux. It amazes me that those who intentionally seek to provoke the emotions of others, then turn around and play innocent, as if they did nothing to draw the responses they receive.
“I’ve been covering this area for a long time, but I’ve never seen anything descend to this level of infantile commentary,” DiDio said.”
Infantile commentary is guaranteed to exist in that which Ms. Didio herself writes. Pot meet kettle. Kettle meet pot.
Admittedly, threats are a completely inappropriate response to the FUD these alleged journalists choose to publish. FUD is best countered with facts. But IBM, Dell, HP, Sun, Novell and others care not one whit about the slop these journalists serve up. So the march of Linux rolls onward.
i use gentoo, fluxbox and running and experimenting with linux on ipaq, bluetooth nokia and blahblahblah…
so my point is that i have so much of help from the people involved in the projects which i needed that i just can’t say that there are zealots which makes my linux days hard…
i think that you could have hard discussions when you are asking for discussions but when you are asking for help and additional information you will get more than you need or you can give….
being part of that community is great and becoming one is just about your own feeling there are no guardians till you try to find them… then you find them coz in free software you always get what you want
“Ask similar questions to Linux zealots and if you’re luckly they’ll point you towards the correct man pages and config files. But a lot of the time you’ll just get a rant about ‘point and drool lusers’ and get told to RTFM, many seem to want to prove what 733T HaXXorz they are.”
But that’s only half of what a typical linux/Free Software zealot does. The other half of the time when they’re not engaging in that activity, they’re yelling stuff like “Linux being hard to use is M$ FUD”. And then right after they’ve done that, they tell people frustrated with the lack of quality of design of linux GUI’s “how dare you criticize the work of volunteers working for free”. And right after that, they’re declaring someone who says “you get what you pay for with linux” a troll. And right after that, they’re lobbying politicians to replace existing desktops having better (*very* relatively speaking) usability with the software they say is just as easy as Windows/Mac for which they just told someone to go read the fine manual.
I want a usable, open source alternative to today’s offerings that is truly innovative and treats the end user with respect. I still believe in open source, but I’m starting to question whether linux (or unix) is a really a good idea. An open source OS/Desktop with the unix culture completely removed might be a better idea.
An open source OS/Desktop with the unix culture completely removed might be a better idea.
Come on, the unix culture is not that bad. Read Eric S Raymond’s book to have more background about that, and then imagine what would have been the internet if it hadn’t adopted the unix culture (or think, what would it be if everything on the internet would be in the poor state Instant Messaging is nowdays)
“This is simply conservative people’s way of labelling them and thus marginalizing their viewpoint.”
Rubbish. There is a world of difference between a strongly held viewpoint and fanaticism. The difference is that fanatics are mental fascists who will brook no viewpoint but their own. Getting in someone’s face and screaming at him that he’s a ****ing worthless steaming pile of excrement because he smokes will guarantee that the message will be lost on someone who may otherwise listen to a perfectly reasonable argument.
I really like Craftsman tools. I like their support. If I get angry and throw my Craftsman Hammer into my Craftsman Woodchipper they will replace both. Free. I just walk into the store with my mangled mess and go “dude.” And they give me new stuff.
But I will still use Snap-On if it’s 5″ closer to reach than a Craftsman hammer.
At work I have Windows 3.11 systems (diagnostics/ configuration/ monitoring terminals), W2K (generic office productivity), OS X 10.2 (design, publications), SCO Unix, AIX, and Solaris 8/ 9(diagnostic/ config terminals), and at home I use XP (gaming, music server) and OS 9 (main). Each is appropriate for their use. People who’ve actually worked on systems know that, yes Windows 3.11 can run for years without a reboot and that QNX running stoplights without fail for years is nothing special when it comes to single purpose devices. I’ve had Windows 3.11 and 95 systems run on a single boot until the hardware failed.
Software’s a tool. Anyone who expends that much energy as a software evangelist (and isn’t paid) has some very, very serious problems. Arguing the technical/ useability merits of some idea or actual X vs Y is one thing. Extrapolating it into a world-wide cause or as a dividing issue is pathetic. How about fighting to eliminate IP laws or the rabid abuse by municipal governments of eminent domain. I guess working in a shelter would a) actually accomplish something significant b) require getting off your butt.
I’m tempted to believe that most of the zealots are bored kids who need to be given a skateboard and kicked out of the house. Teenagers with their alpha male idiocy and hyper-emotional reactions over anything irrelevant are responsible for most crime anyway – maybe forbid people from connecting to the internet until 18. Remove RMS’s access while they’re at it.
Idiots that can’t behave have for example ruined all that’s left of the amiga platform so you should listen well to this warning.
So here we have two journalits, Enderle and Didio, complaining about about the reaction against their campaigns, unable to take the heat that their position generates. That is the problem with this article. It is based on quotes from Enderle and Didio – the moment you quote them you lose your credibility.
Thank you for telling the truth about Enderle! He is representative of the ignorance of the so-called “analysts” who are often nothing more than paid shills for one corporate interest or another. The only people who might listen to them are PHB’s and fanboys/gals of those who their pronouncements support. BTW, I guess I would fall into the “80 percent” who are “pragmatists” about Linux. If you don’t want to use it, you don’t have to, IMO. What I am really “zealous” about is rooting out liars.
I am a longtime Windows user who has gotten into Linux pretty heavily in the last year. Windows is a nice mature platform, but Linux is the OS for me in the long run. I’m always learning new things about Linux, largely due to the helpful community that I have found in Linux.
I really have to say that while Windows and Linux users are both prone to screaming and yelling stupid points about “their” OS, the help is available if you want it and ask in the correct fashion.
I often haunt irc.freenode.net, archlinux.org and gentoo.org for help and conversation. But Arch and Gentoo are not the easiest of distros, and I want to make it clear that I installed Linux with no help other than what the community provided me.
If you have trouble getting Linux help, make sure that you’ve asked your question in the best manner or try some other forum, channel or site. Not all are equal, just as not all Linux users are neither zealots or saints. Most fall somewhere in between.
I have seen the same kind of behavior that the articles mention. Many times. This thread is a good example. Just go through and count the insults and character attacks, compared to a percentage of the total comments.
It is not worth it.
Seriously, Linux users just can’t take criticism! You say they can’t take criticism (ie are zealots) and boom, 50 comments about FUD and how the authors must be paid to say that and how other people are worse. Excuses, excuses, excuses!
Want more evidence of the problem? Take a look at how many poster apologize for criticising linux whenever they have a negative point. They will write things such as “I love Linux but…” or “I am a Linux user but …” or even “Use use X and Y and Z open source operating systems but …”
People *never* say this about proprietary systems. I’m sure most of the people who bash solaris have probably never used it. No one ever dances around bashing Windows. Hell, even the BSDs get bashed often without the user ever having touched one!
I agree with one of the other posters on this board: software is a tool and should be treated as such. Honestly, there are more important matters in the world to get worked up about. Things like pollution, hunger, war, corrupt regiems (especially the big western one). Please, leave the evangelical comments out of software. I just want to know the facts. Does a system have good algorithms, good design, easy to use, is the source avaliable or not (which is fine too), is it free, GPL, or proprietary? Just the practial information and technical discussions please. They are so much more interesting than discussing RMSs twisted logic.
Our campus has a local *nix users group. I went to their first meeting of the year back in September and all they did for 3-4 hours was say that Microsoft and IBM sucked and anyone associated with those companies, or anyone useing their software is dumb. The topic of the meeting was unix evangelism. It was the first and last meeting my friends and I attended.
I want a usable, open source alternative to today’s offerings that is truly innovative and treats the end user with respect.
How does an OS show respect (or lack thereof) to a user?
Also, at the risk of repeating myself, I have yet to be told to RTFM a single time while asking for help about Linux. The large majority of Linux (and, for that matter, Windows and Mac) users on Internet forums are helpful and friendly, except on advocacy boards/newsgroups. And in those places, Windows advocates are as vocal (and occasionally rude) as pro-Linux ones.
I think it’s extremely unfair to judge an OS by the behavior of a small portion of its users, just like it is very unfair to single out a single OS that way when other OSes have their own contingent of immature users.
Now, that said: Linux supporters do tend to be more militant, but in this they are quite justified, as they do not have Microsoft’s multimillion-dollar marketing machine. If there was as much advertising for Linux as there is for Microsoft, then advocates wouldn’t be as eager to spread their message. As it stands, Linux’s survival depends on vocal advocacy – within the limits of civilized discourse, that is. And, fortunately, that’s what we have on a number of quality web sites, such as Newsforge, OSNews, Linuxworld, etc.
Please stop spreading the stereotype of the rude Linux geek, as it is mostly a fabrication of MS’s propaganda machine. Thanks.
Ask some newbie questions to Mac zealots and they’ll usually go out of their way to help you, they want to prove that Mac OS really is easier to use than the alternatives.
Ask similar questions to Linux zealots and if you’re luckly they’ll point you towards the correct man pages and config files. But a lot of the time you’ll just get a rant about ‘point and drool lusers’ and get told to RTFM, many seem to want to prove what 733T HaXXorz they are.
While I can see where you’re coming from, personally, I have to disagree. I’ve been uing Linux for about 3 years now… and I’m still a partial newb. However, if you go on http://www.linuxquestions.org, you will see TONS of counter examples. That site has really helped me to learn things, and I’ve also talked to a couple other Linux Zealots, and most of the time, the want to show off, so they help me do something, then teach me why it works. (They’re showing off thier considerable knowledge even more.) Yeah, there are a few bad eggs, and a few “1337 H4xz0r pwnt j00, n00b.” people out there, but I think for the most part, Linux hackers are a friendly, helpful bunch. Then again, this is all my person experiance. Maybe I just know nice people
Just go through and count the insults and character attacks, compared to a percentage of the total comments.
Would you care to give some examples? I’ve seen a couple of attacks against RMS, and also some misrepresentation of Linux users on the Internet.
There have also been a few unsavory epithets thrown at Enderle, but in all honesty this man is a MS shill that poses as an independant journalist. People who abuse the public’s trust to act as mouthpieces for commercial interest deserve all the scorn they can get.
Even if he is telling the truth about the letters of insult and threats, he should remain critical about this and not go and complain about it. I mean, it’d be pretty easy for someone at MS to send anonymous threats to him, knowing very well that he would then write an article saying that Linux advocates are dangerous maniacs. You can’t buy that kind of publicity, but you can certainly arrange to get it!
Threats over the internet are noise, nothing more. When I ran my political weblog I’d get about two or three a month. I even got a couple of death threats. But as far as I know, no TCP/IP packet has ever killed someone. If someone needs to grow up, it’s Enderle.
The problem today is that the Internet enables zealots to spread their views world wide. You might visit osnews, slashdot, newsgroups, irc etc. and see lots of posts about “GPL vs BSD”, “Gnome vs KDE”, “Mac vs PC”, “Market share vs Installed base” or “OSX vs Linux/*BSD vs Windows”, but many of the offensive posts were written by the same people that visits all of these sites.
Some thoughts:
1) there is no such thing as a linux community, that’s just a leftover buzzword from the mid-90’s when all of a sudden everything was a community, this should have gone out with java applets.
2) Looking for free support? Take what you can get, if I go around begging for money on the street more people will be nasty than nice to me. I dont get this ‘boohoo people wont help me for free on their own time’, really!
3) read a book for gods sake. The first thing I did when I got my C64/Amiga/LinuxOS was read the manual. People who tell you that you need to RTFM before trying to use something aren’t zealots, they’re just stating a fact.
It’s just an argument people use to discredit Linux.
Honestly, what specifically is the problem with people valuing software freedom? I admit that there is an unfounded anti-corporation sentiment in the community (one that I disagree with), but that doesn’t mean I think that they are ruining much of anything.
Don’t want to try Linux? Blame it on the “fanboys.”
I currently use Windows (all flavours), Linux (Debian, Knoppix, RedHat), and OpenBSD. They all have good points and bad points, and I like them all, even Windows.
I’ve been interested in getting an Apple PowerBook just out of interest and because I’ve heard so many good things. The ONE thing that is preventing this is that every time I convince myself I should buy one, I read some IDIOT MAC ZEALOT’s post on Slashdot and it makes me swear that I’ll never ever buy one. Seriously. These morons are only hurting their “cause” by being so blatantly dishonest and slimy with their posts. It feels like I’m getting a sales pitch from the slimiest lying salesman ever. Mac zealots remind me of politicians, like when Bill Clinton tried to weasel his way out of the truth with Monica, or how Dubya is trying to weasel his way out of his WMD lies.
It’s like they believe their own BS even though nobody else does. They live in an alternate reality, I guess. The posters are so anxious to win their argument they forget that the TRUTH should be more important than VICTORY. Very sad. I understand when Linux guys get out of hand, since they’re not selling “a product” as much as they are selling the “idea of freedom”. Freedom is good. Free software is good. I like it. It benefits me to get free stuff and more choices. But the Apple guys are only selling a product, like any other product, not an ideal. And they sell their product more aggressively than the Linux guys sell freedom. There’s something creepy about that. I honestly think I will surely be disappointed when and if I get a Mac. I’ve seen all sorts of evidence about Apple Corporate get shuffled under the rug by zealots so often that I am worried they’re WORSE than Microsoft. I don’t think MS has paid shills on Slashdot, but I honestly DO think Apple does. I’m even starting to worry about subliminal messages because the zealots seem so disconnected from reality. Seriously, I’m worried.
So I’ve got the money, but I am very hesitant to buy a Mac, just because the Mac guys on Slashdot are the biggest lying arrogant slimy jerks I’ve ever encountered on the net. But Mac OS X and the 15″ PowerBook hardware *look* very sweet.
A PowerBook is a VERY BIG INVESTMENT for me, and if it turns out to be based on lies and deception from paid shills on the net, I’ll never forgive Apple or the mac users and it would probably ruin my life for a while. So I’d appreciate if any SANE REASONABLE PERSON could soothe my fears and tell me it’ll be alright. Or not. I just want the truth for once from somebody who’s not trying to sell me something.
<quote>
Some thoughts:
1) there is no such thing as a linux community, that’s just a leftover buzzword from the mid-90’s when all of a sudden everything was a community, this should have gone out with java applets.
2) Looking for free support? Take what you can get, if I go around begging for money on the street more people will be nasty than nice to me. I dont get this ‘boohoo people wont help me for free on their own time’, really!
3) read a book for gods sake. The first thing I did when I got my C64/Amiga/LinuxOS was read the manual. People who tell you that you need to RTFM before trying to use something aren’t zealots, they’re just stating a fact.
</quote>
This is the single most intelligent section of text i’ve ever seen on any ‘reader’s rants’ comment list on this site. good call.
It’s just an argument people use to discredit Linux.
Honestly, what specifically is the problem with people valuing software freedom? I admit that there is an unfounded anti-corporation sentiment in the community (one that I disagree with), but that doesn’t mean I think that they are ruining much of anything.
Don’t want to try Linux? Blame it on the “fanboys.”
YOU are MY definition of a ZEALOT!
misusing words (freedom)
Blame on “fanboys” = Discrediting
And you’re also the very reason why I can accept and like anything BUT Linux.
XBe: No, you just try to go out from discussion without normal answer.
So far I can provide several answers – some of them already answered in previous posts:
1) RTFM – it is NOT a insult, it is a fact. Poiting. Read that *FINE* Manual. Usually I say so and provide a link to manual. WHY? Because those manuals are well written and ANY people with a little brain can find anything they need. OS you use is no excuse of lazyness. Even for Windows to do something useful you have to read, read, and again – read.
2) Yes, lot of people *love* Linux and it is more life style as pragmatical tool. However, I won’t say that all they’re zealots. I’m not zealot, I have worked on bunch of various OSes during my admin days – AIX, OS X, MacOS, Windows any kind, BSD, Linux, Solaris – you name it. And if I argue against you – I KNOW what I talk about. Mostly people won’t love those Linux fans because they have right – but they won’t make you a easy bed to fall in it. They will be harsh with arguments. But I usally very open and human to others (and many others of Linux community too), because I have learned to work with clients and common crowd all my life as support.
Zealots and fans for each and various software are everywhere – I know many of you will try to find a logical sense why we love Linux, but there’s not so much logic as simply humanity.
3) I really sorry for those guys who argue that they couldn’t use Linux because of zealots. If it was my way of choosing things, I propably would hide under my bed and won’t go outside of my room – because world and life is full of zealots and people who will argue with you.
p.s. sorry for bad grammar, I was very emotional this time.
*sigh* Matt, I understand completely why you might feel reticent about purchasing a PowerBook after your exposure to the roaches lurking under the bed aka the “Mac zealots”, and this is exactly what I was talking about in my earlier post. These kinds of loudmouths are a plague on all OS communities. I use a 15″ PowerBook myself, and I can assure you that it’s a wonderful machine. If you live near an Apple Store (NOT Best Buy or CompUSA), my advice to you is to go in and put one through its paces, and make sure you ASK THE STAFF THE TOUGH QUESTIONS. The Apple Store staff are quite knowledgeable and helpful, and I’d also suggest that you visit any popular Mac forum and ask for opinions. You’ll be surprised at the friendly reception and frank answers if you let people know you’re new to the Mac, are considering getting one, or just want to know more about users’ experiences. Slashdot is exactly the wrong place to ask advice or to get an honest opinion; they seem to attract the jackasses there. Just use your common sense and ignore the people who think that Steve Jobs is God, and that the Mac is the best thing since the Rosetta Stone, or the mouth-breathing fanboys who spews insults at other platforms. Like all pieces of machinery, no computer is perfect, and anyone who says otherwise should best be avoided. My PowerBook came with a dead modem and had to go back to Apple for a new one, a non-trivial inconvenience since I live in Jamaica and the nearest Apple Store is in Miami. All things told however, I am very happy with it, and with Apple’s service and support, and I’m very impressed with how OS X has continued to develop and improve. [One odd unsubstantiated rumor floating around since yesterday: OS X 10.4 will feature better support for, and synchronization with, Linux, and the iLife apps will be ported to Linux. Would be nice, but you know how it is with rumors :-)]
As to Apple’s corporate image, NO company would be stupid enough to pay shills to post on Slashdot. As I said before, you’ll find that Mac users can be harshly critical of Apple, and you have every right to be skeptical of any company’s motives. Trust your instincts; if someone sounds like an idiot, they probably are.
I thought I would but in my two cents, biased as they are.
Linux users remind me of Mac users, the OS is almost a religion. At least Mac users, until MacOS X, looked forward. I am hard pressed to believe that the miracle operating system of the future is basically 35 years old. And I know that there are a lot of people who would disagree with me on this, but this is from my own experience and research.
Speaking of Macs, I always found them harder to use than a Windows box.
Also, everyone now talks about how horrid an OS monopoly is. Fine, anyone care to go back to 1978-1983, when every “personal” computer used its own OS, with no compatibility between systems?
Finally, I got into the BeOS community late, so I don’t have any experience with the zealots there, but I always found it supportive and friendly. BeOS is still my OS of choice, dual booting to Windows to play games. Unfortunately, I don’t currently have a BeOS compatible NIC for my laptop, so I don’t have it installed.
Major-general: BUT Microsoft doesn’t provide 100% compatibility between their versions of Windows, either! And for compatibility there is a STANDARTS, which is frequently abused by Microsoft.
All other world use standard, W3C aproved HTML language – only Microsoft feels so superior that add some things which breaks web pages for other browsers.
Please, use your Windows – I DON’T PUSH YOU TO DO OTHERWISE. But don’t push me to use IE to web pages.
And for Windows geeks OS is NOT religion? Come on! There are lot of people who have put a trust into something. It is not easy to get deattached.
You will always find zealots because the human society likes duality. Good verses Evil. Republican verses Democrat. Ford verses Chevy. Christian verses Muslim. The arguments start with phrases like ‘my object is better than yours’, ‘my object is cheaper than yours’ and ‘my object is faster than yours’. Most of these boast are about competition between people. Most people like to be a bit better than other people and/or to have better objects than other people. There is no point in having something better than any one else if you can not brag about it. So you end up with zealots.
Will Linux zealots damage Linux? No. Because of the way Linux is developed, it just can’t disappear. A person will always be able to download Linux. People will try linux, some will like it and some will not. Some of the people who like Linux will shout from the roof tops that Linux is the best thing since the wheel. As with life, linux will move on.
YOU are MY definition of a ZEALOT!
Why?
misusing words (freedom)
Not really. I’m using the term as it relates to the ability to modify software. If you don’t value that freedom, then that’s fine by me. The idea that “freedom” is restricted those rights which citizens demand that their government should uphold is actually the only misuse of the word “freedom” here. Get my point?
Blame on “fanboys” = Discrediting
I don’t know what you think I said, but I meant that many folks bash the Linux userbase when they can’t think of any legitimate criticism of Linux itself.
And you’re also the very reason why I can accept and like anything BUT Linux.
You’re so prepard to label someone a zealot and dismiss anything associated with that Zealot that I think you should question whether or not the labeling stems from the association itself. What I mean is, I think you’re just calling me a zealot because either you don’t want to listen to what I have to say, or you don’t understand it, but feel like it threatens a viewpoint you hold.
I know that at least in Europe there are also paid trolls.
Please be accurate, OS’es are a religion only to the zealots, so please don’t judge the Linux and Mac communities by them. I’m sure you would sing a different tune about the BeOS community if you were unfortunate enough to meet BeOS zealots, not that I’ve ever heard of any. Also while UNIX is “basically 35 years old”, Unix-like operating systems are much more modern in terms of features, servicers etc. The principles and philosophy of Unix are timeless, in my opinion. By your reasoning anything that doesn’t come fresh-sprung from the brow of Zeus is obsolete. Hmm…maybe we ought to stop using any machine that contains those wheel thingies, after all they’re millennia old. They can’t be any good any more.
As to your finding Macs harder to use than Windows boxes, maybe (I’m guessing) you fell into the common trap Windows users do, namely expecting the Mac to behave like Windows, especially if you’re quite experienced with Windows. My sister and five of my seven brothers (two are Comp.Sci majors) all switched to OS X from Windows XP, and after some initial fumbling around have all sworn that they’ll never use anything else. The common consensus, apart from their admiration of the hardware, is that in their opinion, the Mac interface is far more consistent. Let me hasten to add that I’ve never used anything but a Mac, so I have no opinion on Windows, or Linux, or BeOS (about which I’ve heard some VERY nice things), but I certainly am not a Windows basher. Cheers.
There are lots of rude people on the internet, just as there are in real life. This is article is by yet another whiner who probably has a “Mean People Suck” bumper sticker on their car.
Does anybody not notice the same types of hostility on any bulletin board or in any chatroom wheter the topic be sex, religion, politics, music, etc? And if a journalist can express their opinion on the internet, aren’t other people entitled to express theirs?
Thanks very much, Viridian! Your intelligent response is exactly the antidote to the total stupidity and ranting biases I see elsewhere (Slashdot).
I’m in a similar situation to you being in Jamaica (just with worse weather)… I live in Canada, and the nearest half-decent Apple Retailer (there’s no actual Apple Stores here that I know about) is in Toronto, 4-5 hours away. I settle for playing around on a 500Mhz iMac in Future Shop, where the people have NO CLUE how it works, they’re still selling it for full original price, and they usually try to convince me to buy a new Compaq or Sony instead!
Do you (or anyone else reading this), know of any helpful websites where I can get Mac questions answered or see experiences of other ‘switchers’? What Mac sites do you have bookmarked? And should I really wait for the G5 PowerBook?
Thanks again for your help.
“Do you (or anyone else reading this), know of any helpful websites where I can get Mac questions answered or see experiences of other ‘switchers’?”
I’m not a Mac user but I’ve found these people to be helpful. Go to the Switcher Hangout there.
http://www.mac-forums.com/forums/index.php?
http://www.macosxhints.com/
http://www.osxfaq.com/index.ws
http://mac-hints-tips.com/
Lots of tips, and forums. The 3rd one is a monthly review, in PDF, freely downloadable, with hints and tips for newbies and others.
“Increasingly, they say, the passion behind the operating system appeals to the disenfranchised, who see Linux in quasi-political ” even quasi-religious ” terms, but fail to comprehend the business and technical ideals behind it. As a result, they say, good technology is getting a bad rap.”
This one paragraph sums it up quite nicely. Its the difference between a true IT professional and eveyone else. Objective thinking in regards to the tools at hand leads to success.
Personally i have learned to ignore the zealots and their drivel. All they end up doing is keyholeing themselves and eventually fall to the way side in progressive organzations. Like so many Unix/Novell bigots that could not accept another OS(Windows) in their environment. Placing personal preference over business needs never works.
Innovation in the production or defense of a new idea does not come from oatmeal people.
There was a guy at my job once who found out I was a Linux user (he was a Windows tech-support type,) and he called me names I would never repeat to anyone under any circumstances, as well as making sure I knew what a communist twerp I was.
No technological endeavor is immune to fools like those. Do not doubt, either, that some of them mature into people like McBride. We already know, for example, that Steve Wozniak was at one time distributing hardware to defraud the telephone company. We also know that Bill Gates was using school equipment and resoruces for personal and commercial purposes.
About the only thing I can say is: It’s good our leaders keep pressing the idea of maintaining the high moral ground with Linux. The more we do that, the harder it is for our sworn enemies to use our behavior against us.
Matt,
You’re more than welcome, and sorry I forgot to post any links to Mac sites, but Mindleberg and Manik were kind enough to correct that oversight. Mac OS X Hints is my favourite site, and it was the kind bunch who frequent it who were instrumental in easing me into the wonderful world of the command line. You’ll find that they are a very civilized and helpful community.
Also, if you find that you’re not happy with OS X (highly unlikely) you can always scrub it and install Linux on your new PowerBook. I hear that Yellow dog Linux runs very well on Apple hardware.
As to waiting for the mythical G5 PowerBook, I couldn’t give you any advice there. I’m mighty interested in seeing if they can handle the heat dissipation problems in a thin portable. You’ll find that waiting for the latest and greatest from Apple is an exercise in frustration. Your dream machine finally ships and you plunk down your hard-earned cash, only to see something better for less six months later. NEVER fails. Just get the machine that best suits your needs.
” Also, everyone now talks about how horrid an OS monopoly is. Fine, anyone care to go back to 1978-1983, when every “personal” computer used its own OS, with no compatibility between systems? ”
And this is the problem. In an ideal setting, OSes would use OPEN STANDRADS, to allow for interobility with ALL platforms. But of course MS chooses to use closed formats which force other platforms to employ backward engineering which is not perfect.
Heck even MS breaks compatiability with ITS OWN SOFTWARE. Have you tried to open a Office97 doc in Office2K?
Netscape also broke standards – float, BLINK, EMBED, keygen, LAYER, plaintext, server, and other tags.
Anyone in web design (or anything else with a standards body) knows that standards bodies are slow and fairly unresponsive. All companies in a given area normally release a product to serve a need that the standards bodies ignore. It isn’t until those “non-standard” actions become wide-spread that the standards bodies take notice. By then, several competing solutions are out there.
The commercial vendors are (usually) the ones who develop the market initially while the standards bodies codify the results. Linux and BSD were developed because of proprietary Unix licensing. The Mac opened the door to regular users.
As far as backwards compatibility, companies usually support it as far as they can. I really doubt most purposefully break their compatibility – unless it’s like Apple screwing over GUI add-ons or Satellite companies spiking TVs. Read Dilbert’s the Way of the Weasel. It is so true. I hate the comic strip but this book should be mandatory reading for every employee orientation in organizations >1000 people.
Breaking stuff = work.
Compatibility = work.
People really don’t work in a large enterprise – Government, corporate, etc. The developers have their feature list. They are going to do what they can to make the feature list work within their deadline. And that’s it. Anything more = work. If they have extra time, they will pad it with solitaire, pocket tanks, “network” (ie BS) or read Dilbert’s The Way of The Weasel in the bathroom stall. Or post on OS News or something.
i cant se why people always focus on linux zealots.
is there linux zealots yes
are they a problem yes
but so wath
there is macosx zealots, windows zealots, bsd zealots, amiga zealots and vms zealots,. heck if you go into consoles you find zealots in every console group xbox ps2 and so on.
of all the major groups i belive that is se about the same amount of zealots. well windows is clearly under presentaded if you think about the amount of users. but then joe user is seldom a zealot not enuff intrest to be one.
if every body could just ignore the zealots they would post a much smaller problem. stop focusing of one kind try to take em all out
Even if your readership is at the same level, I still maintain that the world zealot itself is a loaded word intended to disqualify and brand a whole group of people that are too broad and to diverse to fit into it. The same thing for the so-called Linux community. We are just a bunch of people that happen to like an operating system. Some people look for technical advances, other for a political posititon to advocate.
It’s all good.
What is dishonest is to provide this highly inflammatory articles and wonder why people reply the way they do.
Had Bruce Perens at least acknowledged the possibility that MyDoom and the subsequent SCO DDoS attacks may have been generated from within the OSS community, or even better provided some assurance that it couldn’t possibly have come from the community, his pean to OSS supporters might have been worth the bandwidth it took to download.
Instead, he appears to blame variously;
a) Spammers, based on the most tenuous connection between spam and SCO ever seen
b) SCO itself, based on his own antipathy towards the company, some rather flimsy assertions of lying under oath and a tacit perception within the community that SCO is out to discredit it; and
c) “Others”, for whom he doesn’t care to mention, either by name or motivation.
At this point, any and all of the above, including someone from within the community, is as likely as each other to have perpetrated this. For a leader in good standing of the community to completely ignore the possibility that something is rotten in the ranks doesn’t inspire confidence that the rest of the community will clean up it’s act, or even want to.
“About the only thing I can say is: It’s good our leaders keep pressing the idea of maintaining the high moral ground with Linux. The more we do that, the harder it is for our sworn enemies to use our behavior against us.”
What leaders? What sworn enemy? We are talking bits and bytes, hardware and software here. This is not some Jihad. This is not some political movement. Get a grip. Step away from the keyboard, go outside and suck in some freah air. Put things in perspective.
If you have lost yourself, you have lost the war.
i cant se why people always focus on linux zealots.
First, please use capitalization, it makes your comment much easier to read for the rest of us (not to mention commands more respect in the business world).
As for the difference between Linux zealots and other types of zealots, it’s the philosophy. An xbox zealot, or Mac zealot will simply go on and on about how cool their console/os is. Also, they will look at other technologies, such as say routers or viop phones, and go “cool”.
On the other hand, a Linux zealot is not really about the technical superiority of Linux. Although almost all Linux zealots *do* claim that nothing can even *dream* of having better performance than Linux. This is not what is so offensive about Linux zealots, as all zealots do this.
What is offensive about Linux zealots is there continual chant of FSF rhetoric. To them, it’s a *religious* issue, not a technical one. Software takes on as much importance as world poverty, or slavery. This idea is very offensive to most people, who might actually have experienced one of the latter truly disturbing issues. Linux zealots will also scoff at *any* hardware or software that doesn’t run Linux. xbox? Pfft, doesn’t run Linux (ok it does but whatever). Router blah? pfft doesn’t run linux. These are the people that will buy, say a Linksys, *just because it runs Linux*, regardless of cost or how good the router is. These are the reasons Linux zealots are more annoying than other zealots.
Thanks very much for the links, help, and advice. The links look great, and I’ve decided to buy a 15″ PowerBook on February 10th, which means Apple will announce the G5 PB’s on the 11th. Thanks again. Gotta go read those webpages now…
What leaders? What sworn enemy? We are talking bits and bytes, hardware and software here. This is not some Jihad.
Please tell this to Microsoft. They’re the ones who first used dirty tactics and FUD in the war they’ve declared on Linux. They’re the ones to put Linux at #2 in their enemy list.
Meanwhile, there are community leaders, and this has nothing to do with war.
A.K.H.
As for the difference between Linux zealots and other types of zealots, it’s the philosophy. An xbox zealot, or Mac zealot will simply go on and on about how cool their console/os is.
You’re kidding, right? You’ve obviously never witness a console flamewar between PS2 advocates and Xbox users (personally, I don’t care as I have both).
As for Mac advocates, they can be as passionnate as Linux users. Same thing goes for Windows advocates, by the way. There are quite a few on this web site who act in very rude/aggressive/provocative manners.
Also, they will look at other technologies, such as say routers or viop phones, and go “cool”.[…]Linux zealots will also scoff at *any* hardware or software that doesn’t run Linux. xbox? Pfft, doesn’t run Linux (ok it does but whatever). Router blah? pfft doesn’t run linux. These are the people that will buy, say a Linksys, *just because it runs Linux*, regardless of cost or how good the router is. These are the reasons Linux zealots are more annoying than other zealots.
Err…may I respectfully suggest that you are again mistaken? I know plenty of Linux advocates who don’t really care what their hardware runs – in fact, I’ve never heard anyone refusing to buy a piece of hardware because the embedded system wasn’t Linux. Oh, and the reason people buy Linksys routers is that because they’re cheap and they work well.
Finally, even if someone bought a piece of hardware because it ran Linux, what concern is it to you? Would you say that someone who buys some equipment because it runs Windows Embedded is annoying?
Tell me, if the fact that people buy equipment to support their favorite OS (maybe because they trust its capabilities) annoys you, how does that make you any less of a zealot than those you so eagerly decry?
“Please tell this to Microsoft. They’re the ones who first used dirty tactics and FUD in the war they’ve declared on Linux. They’re the ones to put Linux at #2 in their enemy list.”
Please point me to the Microsoft press release that “declares war on Linux”. If you can’t please quit jabbering away with your mindless prattle.
A.K.H. wrote … These are the reasons Linux zealots are more annoying than other zealots.
These, and the fact that when you DO manage to get a point through and they would have to admit a downside to Linux, they usually tend to get very personal in their responses.
Please point me to the Microsoft press release that “declares war on Linux”. If you can’t please quit jabbering away with your mindless prattle.
My, my, who’s being rude now? I thought only Linux zealots acted with such uncouth manners? I think I shall henceforth extend your behavior to all Windows users and declare that Windows zealots are what are driving me away from Microsoft products.
Seriously, now, do you think MS puts out press releases with that kind of language? Of course they don’t. As we saw in the anti-trust trial, they reserve these savory expression for private memos. As I recall, they used exactly those kind of words when talking about what they were going to do to Netscape. Linux is much more of a threat to MS than Netscape ever was, yet you’d have us believe that it harbors no sentiment against it? I’m beginning to form the opinion that you’re not really a MS fanboy, but rather a MS employee.
Really, do you actually believe the notion that “if it’s not in a press release then it isn’t true?”
MS is threatened by Linux, it has put Linux at the top of its “danger” list and buys web ads on almost every page featuring a Linux article. It has set up an entire lab to prop up its anti-Linux effort. It refuses to help Linux developers make the two OSes better interoperate. It tries to get Lindows banned from using their name in foreign markets (having lost their lawsuit in the U.S.).
Yes, for all practical purposes MS has declared war on Linux. They won’t say it in these words in their Legal-and-P.R.-department vetted press releases, but that means absolutely nothing. MS’s goal is to get rid of Linux any which way it can.
“Would it be fair to say that if you can’t name both advantages and disadvantages about a given platform, then you don’t know enough about it?”
This is a brilliant idea. Perhaps “or have grown emotionally attached to it” should be tacked on to the end.
Well, it takes convincing. For example, I suggested to a person to use PhP + Phorum + FreeBSD instead of Windows + Sharepoint. His reaction, “oh, I don’t want to turn this into a religious arguement”. Now pray-tell, WHO bought bought up the issue of zealotry? it seems that Microsoft fanboys are the ONLY ones who slam down any suggestion of using something other than Windows or a non-Microsoft product.
Mind you, I am not surprised, get 100 UNIX admins together and they’ll spout the virtues of each operating system and what they’re good at. Get 100 Windows admins together and the only thing they can tell you is to use Microsoft Windows or Microsoft software.
Who created this incestuous culture of self breading? Microsoft. They’ve created a culture where by anything outside Windows and Microsoft is automatically seen as inferior.
So if you wan to blame someone for this perceived “zealotry”, blame other IT people. Heck, I had to spend 30minutes explaining to one person why I am not a OS zealot. Why does someone need to explain the obvious? I promote PhP + Phorum + FreeBSD over Windows + Sharepoint because the price Microsofts asks for doesn’t match the price they charge vs. the cheaper alternative that did everything the customer required and more.
Its also time for customers to pull their head of of their behind and actually looked at what their requirements are and matched up a solution rather than thinking, “me have desktop, me must have Office and Windows, me is happy”. Don’t think that happens, go into ANZ and talk to their clueless CIO is more concerned about being a 100% Microsoft shop that actually reducing IT running costs. IT isn’t there to be looked at, it is there to be used. If I can purchase a $30,000 truck, which does everything that the $60,000 truck does, why would I spend money purchasing the $60,000 truck?
“What is offensive about Linux zealots is there continual chant of FSF rhetoric. To them, it’s a *religious* issue, not a technical one. ”
Wrong! It is a political issue. Belief does not factor into it at all. People who choose FLOSS for ideological reasons do not do so becasue they have faith in Richard M. Stallman. They do so because of the freedom they get. They have weighed the benefits and they value freedom most of all.
Amen to that!
It’s the very reason I use FreeBSD as my alternative OS, I don’t like tying everyone by the same brush but my perceptions due to the constant war been waged by so called Linux zealots is not good
What do these “Linux Zealots” demand you to do? Stop using Freebsd and start using Linux?
I’ve never seen anything like that myself..
“Are you been stupid on purpose or were you born that way? – Linus Torvalds
LOL you got that right.
Not conclusive enough?
try here…..
http://www.marcosegato.altervista.org/sections/03_Linux/linux_quote…
Well looking at the “victims” of these threatening letters and all I see are two.
Rob Enderle and SCO.
This assumes Rob Enderle should not recieve angry letters all day and these so called “Zealots” are behind the DOS attack on SCO and Microsoft.
Why would these Free Software “zealots” spend many hours in Windows to create a virus? Would that not be against their “religion” to use a proprietary and immoral OS to release a proprietary virus? That makes no sense.
Not to mention Rob Enderle, who has ticked off plenty of people who don’t use Linux.
So your saying that i’ve got a problem because i’ve got a problem with people who have a problem?
Why defend people that are in the wrong?
I’m not attacking Linux only the zealots who are spoiling it’s reputation.
Talk about a list of worthless out of context quotes.