In this keynote, OSAF founder and chair Mitch Kapor asks if the same collaborative development methods that created success in the corporate arena can now make open source software central to the consumer desktop. ZDNews TechUpdate has an article on the subject too. Elsewhere, Linus Torvalds has published the last release of the current Linux development kernel, clearing the way to start work on the long-anticipated 2.6 kernel. And, this is an interview of the Ark Linux core team and a couple of contributors, while Gaël Duval tells why Mandrake Linux is better than Windows.
Microsoft chooses not to play silly games, and this guy starts boasting that he won by default? What a child.
Sadly, I have to agree. I’ve been a Linux-only desktop user for coming on 18 months now and I could never go back to any current Windows offering, but I find this MozillaQuest article to be a real load of nonsense. Way too much Linux zeal to be considered even remotely objective, which is a shame because the Mandrake guy, although obviously pro-Linux and willing to skip some of its down-sides, actually sounded quite reasonable.
Amazingly there was actually no Microsoft FUD for once – their reply wasn’t long enough to fit any in! Perhaps they’re be preparing a more global response to this OEM ‘mutiny’ in the near future? We’ll see!
I don’t think Mandrake Linux is better than Windows(yet), simply because windows still have more consistency among applications.
I’m a experienced developer, and I’ve been using mdk since 7.1, and I love it, but windows is more suitable for average users. I installed a mdk 9.0 system with openoffice in my father’s small office, and he asked me to replace it with the “old system”, a win98se, because he felt easier to use than mandrake linux. He couldn’t easily sync his pda, and had troubles trying to do some simple tasks, like copy-paste between applications.
I thing mandrake is in the right way, but at this point, windows is still (a little)better, and mac os x is (way )better than both.
Microsoft has failed to refute the statements to the effect that Mandrake Linux is a better desktop solution than is MS Windows.
Duh, that’s cause he didn’t double-dog-dare them.
Maybe for his next article, he’ll explain how Microsoft has cooties, or maybe talk about Bill Gates’ mom or call Ballmer gay.
Tell me this is it easier to apply a plugin or to install an app on Mandrake or on Windows XP ?
…I know the answer, I’ve done both…its easier on Windows XP!Much easier!!!
…now it seems to me that until Linux can offer ease of use for such basic thigs as Application installation then Linux is a non-starter on the desktop!
Give mandrake a break! They are just coming out of financial problems at the moment. We don’t need yet another flamewar about it as we know all the reasons.
Um, let’s compare installation for XMMS and Winamp on Linux and Windows.
Windows: Go to winamp.com. Download latest version of installer. Find installer. Double click installer. Click through EULA. Choose installation directory. Choose shortcut path. Click next to start install.
Linux: Type in ‘urpmi xmms’
Or, if the CLI scares you, start up gurpmi, click to the media section, select XMMS, and click the install button.
Really it’s there now. It’s called the apt package management system. Debian and Debian derivatives already have this wonderful method of installing software. Also Red Hat has apt for RPM out. Check out http://www.freshrpms.net to get it. I am pretty happy with Libranet Linux, and to tell you the truth, I have tinkered with Linux for many years. It was only until recently that I had an alternative to Red Hat. And I am extremely happy with Libranet. Think of it this way, Suse and Mandrake are both great but their package management sucks. Even Red Hat’s package management sucks. If you are looking for an “easy” life, try Debian. I can’t deal with vanilla Debian (in fact I get lost just reading their installation directions) so I went with another distro based on Debian. Mandrake was good for its time but the only ones that will survive in the US market are Red Hat, and any Debian derivative (especially Lindows). The 2.6 Kernel will open up a whole new world for Linux, you will see the 2.6 based distros doing everything from Multimedia specific (ReHMuDi) to large scale clustering (RH Enterprise) first. Very important times in this new age of Linux use.
And it’s just as easy with Debian (apt-get) or Gentoo (emerge). I never understood how people can think that scouring the internet for software is easier than having a repository of it right on your computer.
except,
Linux is very prone still to messing up, the k/gnome menu sucks, and the applications look and act very diffrent.
in windows…click, click, click,click, play
in mandrake…click, click, click, click, config the rest of the support apps, play
the user experience and API needs to be very greatly overhauld.
I like what Rox OS and B.E.OS are doing. they are using Linux for th ekernel and building a consistent system on top of it ready for apps to be ported.
> why Mandrake Linux is better than Windows.
well, for starters, half the equation says “windows” so unless the other half includes the words “self dentistry” or “anal probe,” it is better by default.
Linux is very prone still to messing up
This is quite a gratuitious statement. Windows is still prone to messing up too! Can you give us an example of Linux messing up the XMMS install through URPMI/GURPMI/Mandrake Software Installer (since that was the example given)?
the k/gnome menu sucks
I disagree. I like the (Mandrake-configured) KDE menu a lot more than the Windows Start menu. Again, this is a pretty gratuitious statement.
applications look and act very diffrent.
Like, Windows Media Player 9, RealPlayer One and Winamp all look and act similar, right? Come on! Windows apps are not consistent, neither in the way they look nor the way they operate.
in windows…click, click, click,click, play
in mandrake…click, click, click, click, config the rest of the support apps, play
Wrong. In mandrake…urpmi xmms, play.
Or, if you want the gui…either click your way through the Mandrake Control Center, install xmms, no additional configuration require, or download the rpm, double-click on it and select “install” in KPackage.
How long has it been since you tried Mandrake? Ease of use issues are quickly being resolved – you should give it a spin.
I used to hate how menus were setup in on my debian box, wishing that they’d be “windows-like”. But then i started realizing that it was much quicker to find apps when they were sorted by application type than by company name. Who cares who made the app? I dont, i just want to use it. And some companies have very odd names, so i keep forgetting them, trying to find the app i’m looking for can take a bit of time. I’m not talking about the ‘i use it everyday’ app, but the once a month-er type thing.
I’m wouldnt trade my linux desktop for a windows one anytime soon.
Interesting. I have a dual boot Windows/Linux machine at work. Visual Studio looks nothing like any of the other apps. Neither does Windows media player. Or Office XP. On the other hand, KDevelop, Noatun, KMplayer, and KWord all look and act the same
24Hrs … I needed a break after this….:)
Make sure you are root Download the tarball from OpenOffice.org, and extract the tarball (.tar.gz file) to a temporary directory. “/tmp” is a good place for example. For the purpose of this example, I will assume you have downloaded the tarball to your /tmp directory. Open a terminal, such as xterm or konsole. To extract the tarball, change to the /tmp directory: cd /tmp and extract the tarball: “tar -zxvf [tarball name]”.
This will create a directory “install”. Change into this directory: “cd install.”
Execute the install scripts. This is done with the following command: “./install –prefix=/opt” This command will setup the first step of the Linux setup process, and install to the /opt directory. For more install options, see ./install –help
When the installer is finished, you should execute the user-setup for OpenOffice.org. To do so, make sure you are no longer root – i.e. become a regular user, then change into the program directory where you installed OpenOffice.org: cd /opt/OpenOffice.org1.0, and execute the following command: “./setup”
The user portion of setup will now execute. Tell setup to perform a Workstation installation (should copy about 1.4 MB of files to your home directory) and tell it to store the files in your user directory under the OpenOffice.org1.0 directory (for example: “/home/billg/OpenOffice.org1.0”). Follow the instructions and fill in your contact details, and tell OpenOffice.org where your Java installation lives. When setup asks where to install the files for OpenOffice, Usually, OpenOffice.org will find Java on its own, but sometimes it need you to give the path to Java. (tip: if you don’t know the path to your java setup, you can type in the command line: whereis java – this will give the path to your java installation)
That’s it! If you use GNOME or KDE (provided your distro keeps the KDE user files in ~/.kde2), you will find that OpenOffice.org 1.0 is fully integrated in your environment. If you use a different Windowmanager, you can start OpenOffice.org 1.0 by typing ~/OpenOffice.org1.0/soffice
You may remove the install files in /tmp, if you are done installing. (thanks to Henrik Eismark for pointing this out)
Mitch was not really talking about the consumer desktop as something that was about to be “won” by Open Source. Instead, he pretty much stated that the consumer desktop is the victory that is farthest away.
The paper his group wrote divided the market until three pieces. The first one, the one we have been in and are moving out of is the one were enthusiasts, geeks, system admins, etc get involved and use Open Source.
Phase Two, which we are just now entering is where Transactional workers and students start using Open Source. By transactional workers they mean customer service deparments and call centers, those people who sit at a desk all day long, answering the phone and keying stuff into a database application on your behalf. Whether it is to change your billing address, or to enter an order for you. These people do not need Windows because they do not interact with Windows. Heck, they don’t even need Linux, but since it is free and you have to some sort of OS, it might as well be the cheap one.
The third phase, which is a few years away, is when knowledge workers start switching to Open Source. These are the content creators in your company. The CFO, the various managers, the PowerPointers, and the Excellers. By we the time we get to this stage Linux as a consumer desktop OS is starting to become a real possiblitity.
Eugenia Loli is a disgusting shman quing
Or, you could have just typed “urpmi openoffice.org” as root, used the Mandrake Control Center Software installer or downloaded the RPM (http://fr2.rpmfind.net/linux/rpm2html/search.php?query=openoffice.o…) and double-clicked on it from a root file manager…now, if you want to do it the hard way, that’s okay. But any noob can just go to the Control Center and install it; needless to say, that installation procedure is easier, faster and cheaper than installing MS Office…
I did it! You can thank me later. You don’t have to think anymore, not that any of you do anyway. Just cut ‘n paste from my fabulous all-in-one OSNews post:
Mac roolz, Linux and Windoze sux
Linux roolz, M$ and Mac sux
MS rules, Linux and Mac sux
BeOS roolz
BeOS is dead
See, it’s easy! Enjoy! It’s all done for you!
In doing this back and forth what users are doing/saying is that there is place and need for tuning in any OS…an OS is always a work in progress, as such users must constantly examine and critique the work so that it moves in the “right” direction.
Coding is very much a mix of Science and Art..as such, there is much room for interpretation and criticism.
Its the healthiest way of moving forward.
URPMI only works if configured properly. Is the home user supposed to configure this? And after you install something, I would like to see the typical home user find out where the install put the file. My linux system has shit all over the place, and I never had a chance to choose where it should go.
-G
URPMI is configured correctly by default. The home user is not supposed to change the configuration!
After you install something, you get a nifty shortcut in the menu – same as in Windows. You shouldn’t choose where it goes, as Linux uses the superbly Unix filesystem structure, with executables going into /usr/bin, configuration files goint into /etc, libraries going into /lib, and so on. This is a clearly superior way of handling file placement (you’re still free to organize your personal files any way you want in /home/yourdir, though…)
If the software is already packaged up for you through apt, portage ebuilds, or rpm’s, then it’s a no brainer for installation.
What happens when you have code that has not been pacakge. You build from source with your standard ./configure; make install command and it installs to God only knows where.
Doesn’t that throw your whole package management system out of sync?
If you get source code for a program in windows and compile it, where does it go?
Doesn’t that throw your whole ‘add/remove programs’ system out of sync?
Oh wait, you’d never do that in windows, would you? Why not? Because it’s too much hassle. If there’s not an .exe to download then you’re going to find another app. Why should it be different in linux? If there’s no .rpm or .deb (or whatever) for what you want, find an alternative.
Don’t treat linux differently and then complain that it’s not the same.
If you get source code for a program in windows and compile it, where does it go?
Doesn’t that throw your whole ‘add/remove programs’ system out of sync?
Oh wait, you’d never do that in windows, would you? Why not? Because it’s too much hassle. If there’s not an .exe to download then you’re going to find another app. Why should it be different in linux? If there’s no .rpm or .deb (or whatever) for what you want, find an alternative.
Don’t treat linux differently and then complain that it’s not the same.
You can use checkinstall to create the .rpm .deb or .tgz so you can remove later.
./configure
make
checkinstall
http://asic-linux.com.mx/~izto/checkinstall/
I meant to quote this one.
”
What happens when you have code that has not been pacakge. You build from source with your standard ./configure; make install command and it installs to God only knows where.”
Use CheckInstall, like God, it knows were it went too.
What happens when you have code that has not been pacakge. You build from source with your standard ./configure; make install command and it installs to God only knows where.
>>>>>>>>>>
Okay, now, if the user is downloading and compiling from source, we’ll assume he is at least an intermediate user, and can handle some simple CLI commands. The reason for this is that any program that Joe-Newbie might want to install is probably already in the package database. Heck, even I only have two programs (Scons and Subversion) that weren’t in Portage that I D/L’ed and compiled from source. Okay, now say if have the tarball or the package as foo.tar.gz
gunzip foo.tar.gz
tar -xvf foo.tar
cd foo && ./configure && make && make install
Now, your app will be installed in /usr/local/bin. Now, just make a shortcut in your menu containing /usr/local/bin/foo. That’s it. Of course, there are programs that aren’t this easy to install. ACE/TAO comes to mind. But guess what — they’re a b*tch to install in Windows too…
linux needs more commercial grade software. nuff said.
What are you talking about ? This urpmi is very easy to setup if you know how to click open a terminal and copy and paste. Of course you need to do this as root. Or could type the command su and ‘su’ over into root in the terminal but that’s nothing. Just copy and paste and you have all the rpm’s you would need or want.
http://plf.zarb.org/%7Enanardon/urpmiweb.php
As far as installing and removing the rpm it does so with no problems ! In fact rpm’s built for mandrake now auto-update the menus for you and add their entries into your menus without a problem. The user does not need to know where every file is unless they are installing something that requires configuring through text files. Even then you can simply use the information pane on the side of MDK-Control Center package manager and set it to give full details. That will show you what and where files go along with comments from the rpm/app maker about stuff like updates, bug fixes, patches, etc. Of course these things must be added in by the the person who built the rpm. If you go with Mandrakes official sources or TexStar’s urpmi sources you’ll never have that problem. The guy knows how to build good rpms and adds all the info you could want to them. Overall I think URPMI is one heck of feature for Mandrake to have which makes updating things like KDE or Gnome very easy ! Heck I even updated my kernel through urpmi. Of course you need to know what you are doing and what needs to be configured before you do this but MDK-Control panel has gui tools ( go to Boot >> DrakBoot ) for this so you won’t have to touch a text file. Very nice indeed if you ask me.
Ximian Gnome does not run on Mandrake.
Anybody know if the Mandrake team is going to try and port it theirselfs? Ximian sure will not do it..
Ximian sure will not do it.
They might now that HP is selling Linux Desktop computers preloaded with Mandrake 9.1…They say on their web site that they will support other distributions if there is enough demand.
“”Don’t treat linux differently and then complain that it’s not the same.”” — Anonymous
So quit treating Windows differently whilst explaining how much better Linux is.
The major reason package management in Linux can be smoother is simply because the packages are maintained by the same people that have created the distro. ie they should know how not to break the distro.
It’s more than a little unfair to start comparing Linux packages that are maintained by distro manufacturers to Windows installer packages maintained by individual application designers. What happens to commercial vendors who can’t/aren’t willing to hand over their source to the various distributors to get it on package dbs? Closest I’ve seen to this is the nvidia driver installer which, although it seems to be very well programmed, is no more or less easy to use than the equivalent Windows installer and is far more confusing to the end-user (Header templates anyone?).
It would be nice to compare like to like for a change instead of comparing the application independent Windows installers to the distro manufacturer maintained package environment. Once you go beyond binaries neither platform is particularily enlightening, although Linux has the edge since most distros come with the tools required to compile from source.
I demanded it today who is next?
I posted the original question.
Yes, I work in the software industry and I do know a bit about Linux. As you mentioned, most good software is available in precompiled packages, but newer versions of software frequently do not appear and you have to wait for a new version of RedHat, Mandrake, Suse, etc. before you get the latest. So compiling software is necesssary sometimes.
I’ll try that utility that was mentioned though.
Use debian unstable, gentoo, mandrake cooker, or whatever then.
Sometimes I get tired of this average user bull crap. So what if the average user can’t use Linux. The average user will become skilled someday and if he doesn’t, there’s always the average user’s operating system, albeit expensive.
As far as I’m concerned each responsible and considerate developer should strive to make tools that are intelligent and intuitive for all users, not just the average user. The best and most respected example of good developers are the game developers. Not all games use the same interface, but usually after an hour reading the manual and probably fitteen minutes into the game, you get a feel how to interact with the program. Game developers not only spend a painstaking amount of time coding and bug testing, they equally pay attention to producing top quality documentations.
Perhaps my analogy is far-fetched, but I think there’s a lot Linux developers can learn from game developers. We don’t need a uniform interface for the average user. That is boring. We need intuitive and intelligent tools for all users.
Regards,
Mystilleef
people just dont get it. Mandrkake is quite easy to use.
im sure the other distros are also and here is the problem.
Mandrake is not debian, Mandrake is not red hate, Mandrake
is not suse.
i’m actually surprised that gates doesnt link to osnews.
some of the biggest fud raisers are the people that use
Linux.
In the 3 days that I managed to use Mandrake 9.1 I installed quite a few apps with URPMI and they all installed smoothly. I’m sure it isn’t perfect, but with the PLF sources it does work very well and most packages are fairly up to date.
Based on my experiences, software installation in Mandrake is just as easy and reliable as in Windows and unlike Windows installing/uninstalling software never requires a reboot.
Unfortunately I still find Linux pretty much unusable as my main desktop OS. Most of the Linux desktop software feels primitive and inelegant compared with the Windows software I use. A big reason for that is the lack of consistency between applications, but also I find that a lot of Linux apps just aren’t very mature and refined. Compare OpenOffice/KOffice to MS Office, or GIMP to Photoshop, and there’s no half decent DTP package. The Linux version of Opera was a big disappointment too, IMO it’s very slow and unstable compared with the Windows version. The Linux apps are amazing considering they’re free, but since I already own Windows apps that isn’t really an advantage.
Then there’s the lack of some features I enjoy in Windows, such as dual headed display support and software suspend. I know there are hacks in Linux like Xinerama/TwinView and SWSUSP, but they’re very primitive compared with Windows equivalents and aren’t in a state I consider usable.
I’d have probably continued playing with Linux for at least a week and I’d have more to say about it. But trying to get SWSUSP working crashed the system and caused damage to the OS, something that happens a lot in Linux IME. The thought or repairing a badly damaged system drained any remaining enthusiasm for playing around with Linux and is another reason why I wouldn’t consider Linux as my main OS. I don’t want to have to spend days reinstalling and reconfiguring the OS and software because of a crash, not when I might be working to a deadline.
what is your problem man?
why do you keep going around calling Red Hat all types of names? I’ve yet to meet the first RH employee using the language you are, and from a business perspective your attitude seems a little childish and unproffesional.
Please consider: you are doing mandrake more harm than good, please stop it
ps: i am not a mandrake hater or a redhat lover, i couldn’t care less about these stupid clanwars. I know you mean well but seriously, i think your immature attitude (not only here) is really hurting mandrake
BS ! I have TexStar’s urpmi sources set up and he usually has new versions of software as soon as he can get it packaged. Or if you want you can use Mandrake Clubs contrib sources as well to supplement whatever might not be in TexStar’s ftp site.
SWSUP is that not reliant on ACPI ? If so then there is a reason it does not work. The main one being that some hardware makers are using MS’s broken version of ACPI in their BIOS’s. I think you need to rebuild your kernel to get it to use the MS version instead of the fixed Intel one.
Yes, I work in the software industry and I do know a bit about Linux
It is a common thing that somebody who have the software/IT background and sometime claim they are expert sometime know less than who came from different background. Around here where I live, the are a lot of them but most of them seem just making BS noise. It is OK if they know little about Linux/*BSD/QNX and other less popular platform but in the Windows platform itself (where they was trained for) they just kow the surface and alwasy wasting the employer’s money by hiring contractors/suppliers/consultants to do just a simple job which for me cannot be tolerable.
Yeaah we are human that is not as perfect as an angel but at least we must have the knowledge on the area that we involved.
Ok, why do these zealots constantly pretend that the only software available for Windows is what comes with the OS? Why don’t they mention that Mozilla/Firebird, OppenOffice, Gaim, Gimp, Pan and many of their other beloved open source apps are also freely available in Windows? My guess is because they care more about spreading their religion than actually trying to help people find the best desktop solution.
Personally, I find most Linux desktop apps to be way under par. Firebird is great, but works in Windows just as well. OpenOffice is just a horrific looking beast that feels about as good as it looks, and takes about 3 years to start on top of all that. KOffice is looks/feels alight, but is a little short on features. So what I want to know is, where are all these great applications people keep rambling about? So far, I’ve seen no CoolEdit, no Reason, no Dreamweaver, no Blitz Basic, no Directory Opus, no Nero, no MusicMatch, etc.
If the Linux/open source apps are so great, how come we don’t have more feature-for-feature app comparisons like they did with Mozilla/IE? Seems that they are only comfortable when comparing Gimp to MS Paint or AbiWord to Wordpad. They take the best of the Linux world and compare it to the worst of the Windows world. Yeah, that’s objective
You Linux users can keep deluding yourself if you want, but most of your apps are simply second-rate. Sure, they’re less expensive than most of their more functional commercial bretheren, but like most things in life, you get what you pay for … or pirate
cyberjackle, thank you very much, checkinstall is exactly what i needed
As far as lacking features, to me that’s the whole point of being open source. If a feature you’re looking for is lacking in a program, you add it. Can’t or do not have time to add it, there’s perfectly find alternitives out there called windows and OS X.
“My guess is because they care more about spreading their religion than actually trying to help people find the best desktop solution.”
Which I’m sure you’re not trying to do, right? You seem downright angry that anyone would dare have a different opinion of or needs from a program than you do.
….must be dreaming. Given the choice 99% of users prefer Xp to be pre-installed and not Mandrake. MS lets the market do the talking. BTW, I would choose Xp as well and purchase Linux and set up a dual booting system. It’s much cheaper!!!!
Darius:
“Why don’t they mention that Mozilla/Firebird, OppenOffice, Gaim, Gimp, Pan and many of their other beloved open source apps are also freely available in Windows?”
I used OpenOffice for Linux and Windows. All I can say is that the windows version woked much better than the Linux one. I tryed to open the same MS-Excel Spreadsheet on both of them. The Windows version opened it just fine; the Linux Version gave me an error message and crashed …. figure it out.
OOps, it was me: mythought
OpenOffice is compared to MS Office many times.
Apache is compared to IIS many times.
PHP is compared to ASP many times.
GIMP is compared to Photoshop many times.
Postix/Sendmail are compared to Exange many times.
Gnu/Linux is compared to Windows many times.
Its not forbidden to run commercial apps on Linux Darius.
I run Houdini and Maya they are not free. Photoshop, Office, Indesign, Illustrator all run fine under Linux.
There is no need for Windows..
Yeah you keep on pirating that windows software you theif. I rather use free software or even pay for good software ( if I can afford it ) then steal software and not pay for it.
Strange i have an opposite eXperience with StarOffice and OpenOffice they run just fine on Linux and Mac, the Windows version also runs but not as smooth and not without crashing!
(the whole system crashes with Windows not just OOo, yes also on XP! its not that stable )
Might it be that am a Linux users who sometimes uses Windows (support/help) and you are a Windows user who sometimes uses Linux?
gunzip foo.tar.gz
tar -xvf foo.tar
cd foo && ./configure && make && make install
That never once worked for me. There is always some sort of error to stop me. On paper, it may sound simple, but when something goes out of plan, how easy is it to continue compiling?
<em>That never once worked for me. There is always some sort of error to stop me. </em>
You might want to actually read the error its gives you information about what is wrong/lacking.
This is really not the way..oh it gives an error, ok Linux sux.
Great on the server, lacks on the desktop.
No matter how you spin it, until there is mainstream commercial applications for Linux, consumers aren’t going to move. Instead of living in mum and dads basement, how about cruise down to your local computer store and see what is available for the consumer to purchase. There are card makers, office suites, system tweakers, games of various genres, small business accounting tools such as MYOB (Extrememly popular in Australia and New Zealand) and heaps of gadgets that all work with Windows.
In the server world, as Linus said, it is alot easier as there are set requirement that need to be met. On the desktop, however, it is a different story. Just look at Windows for example. Been in development for a good 15 or so years, and still Microsoft haven’t reached perfection. Anyone who somehow says that suddenly after 4-5 years of KDE development they have reached Microsoft now, they have to be smoking something really strong.
The server is underthreat from Linux but in terms of the desktop, nothing is threatening it at the current moment. There is no co-operation between the different groups and worse still, problems that plagued the Linux desktop 8 years ago, such as poor copy and paste, still riddle the desktop. After 8 years, there is still no unified HIG, no unified directory layout or standard along the lines of UnitedLinux. After 8 years, there are no mainstream commercial applications. Where are the drop in replacements for things such as Ahead Nero Burner? Corel Draw (GIMP doesn’t count because it is absolutely crap in every meaning of the word), Microsoft Office – One that actually integrates well into the other components that make up a productivity package, a database of equal quality to either Access or Paradox. Until those are fixed, the only alternative for consumers is MacOS X which unfortunately doesn’t live up the hype generated by the reality distortion field that Jobs employs on a regular basis (who sometimes sub leases it to Bill Gates for MSDN conferences).
Or better yet, installing an application that doesn’t keep asking for more and more dependencies or fails to load because the idiot who compiled the package doesn’t state on the site what libraries need to be installed.
I don’t mind depencies, how about tell the user ABOUT what is required. If Libfoobah is required, provide a bloody link to the package so the users life is easier.
If you are running Redhat 8.0. If you try to install XMMS it will segfault because the dependencies are screwed up. After alot of screaming, I was finally informed (after much asking) that aRTs server isn’t installed when XMMS is installed.
For the command you used, it is completely useless for a person who doesn’t use the same distribution that you use. Lets do a Apple Mac to Linux comparison. With Mac, all you do is download, uncompress (the dmg automatically mounts), double click on the mounted volume, and then drag it to the hard disk and voila, installed.
Why can’t it be that easy for Linux?
What is needed to take the desktop in America. This battle will not be won on the big high power 3gig machines. It will be won on the 166mhz to 750mhz machines. With 128mb of ram or less. Why, there are millions of these machines going to waste while millions of people go without in this the computer age. Give us an operating system that revives these machines and they will be used by those that cannot afford other equipment. The poor with children, the non-profits, and small business of this country. Once we are running Linux we will build the demand to make commercial suppliers take notice. And yes, will purchase commercial software where needed, and we will be able to use our very slim budgets to do so because they will not be wasted on getting a computer up and running.
Many of the machines being sold today still run less than 2gig. No computer at my Non-profit agency runs even at 1gig. Supply great performance on these machines and good performance on the old and you can own the market. The other major problem with modern commercial software is that I and nearly everyone I deal with on the job find it unpleasantly over complicated with features we will never use. We lose hours upon hours of time trying to figure out how to do something simple because of all the crap thats been added and is now in the way. Years ago I use a publisher call “Push Button Publisher” not because it had lots of features but because it was easy to use. My brother only gave up on his old version of Quicken because of Y2K problems – he throughly hates the new version because all the new features makes it a real pain to use. So my last bit of advice here is stop chasing commercial software – most users would prefer easy to use (not simple – easy) There is a difference. Windows has spent years making things simple, it has become so simple that it is often painful.
Nuff said for now.
Where are the drop in replacements for things such as
Ahead Nero Burner?, even better k3b.
Corel Draw runs nativly on Linux.
GIMP is great but Photoshop runs on Linux if you want.
OpenOffice is far more better then MS Office ,it writes directly to pdf imports and exports about 200 different formats, runs on almost every platform, MS Office just is not good enough!
But he i am not stopping you from using your favorite buggy, crappy, unfree, virus magnet, backdoor ready OS.
Mitch was not really talking about the consumer desktop as something that was about to be “won” by Open Source. Instead, he pretty much stated that the consumer desktop is the victory that is farthest away.
True, however, that object gets further and further away as programmers and advocates scream at each other rather than sitting down, laying out a plan of attack and sticking to it. There needs to be a plan in regards to where GNOME + Linux + XFree86 + Evolution + OpenOffice.org are all heading to. Dates need to be layed out. What needs to be done by what time frame.
The paper his group wrote divided the market until three pieces. The first one, the one we have been in and are moving out of is the one were enthusiasts, geeks, system admins, etc get involved and use Open Source.
I would say that this will be the mainstay of the Linux community for the next 2 years until the previous paragraph is undertaken.
Phase Two, which we are just now entering is where Transactional workers and students start using Open Source. By transactional workers they mean customer service deparments and call centers, those people who sit at a desk all day long, answering the phone and keying stuff into a database application on your behalf. Whether it is to change your billing address, or to enter an order for you. These people do not need Windows because they do not interact with Windows. Heck, they don’t even need Linux, but since it is free and you have to some sort of OS, it might as well be the cheap one.
Mastertrade in New Zealand did the same thing. Windows 2000 terminal services for the server and Linux for the clients. It was a win-win situation.
The third phase, which is a few years away, is when knowledge workers start switching to Open Source. These are the content creators in your company. The CFO, the various managers, the PowerPointers, and the Excellers. By we the time we get to this stage Linux as a consumer desktop OS is starting to become a real possiblitity.
How long it takes depends on the first paragraph, namely, a plan of attack. A laid down direction of where all the various projects should be heading towards.
I completely agree. If the consumer wanted Linux and it wasn’t provided, they would do what most users do and ask a friend who is knowledgable about computers to install it. I have yet to meet ONE person who wants to replace Windows XP with Linux. Sure, I have met people who have replaced their Windows 9x with Linux, however, as I said, I have yet to meet a Windows XP to Linux convert.
No matter how you spin it, until there is mainstream commercial applications for Linux, consumers aren’t going to move.
MS Office, Photoshop, Quicken and quite a few other “commercial” windows apps already run on Linux.
Professional-grade apps such as Maya and Oracle have native versions for Linux. FilmGimp is already used by major motion picture studios.
But the most important thing is that the rate of adoption and the number of quality apps coming to Linux is increasing, constantly. That bodes well for the future, despite what you naysayers keep repeating. Perhaps we are feeling a bit insecure?…
It’s quite simple. First, Linux will secure the server room, then the corporate desktop. This is already happening. The home desktop will take longer…first, people will use it in the office, find out they like it, then install it at home.
Linux has already won. Microsoft just hasn’t realized it yet.
however, as I said, I have yet to meet a Windows XP to Linux convert.
I know of at least two. But who cares? Do you hear a lot of stories about cities or companies moving thousands of desktops away from Linux, to Windows? Nope. The opposite’s happening, clearing a path for further migrations.
Linux is the future. Microsoft is the past. What’s the big feature of Longhorn again? Oh yeah, wiggly windows and a database-like filesystem. And that’s going to be in late 2004. Whoop dee-doo. I’ll bet you there’ll be open-source equivalents ready before then!
>>I have yet to meet a Windows XP to Linux convert.
Hahha..i already met a couple and they where happy.
@archie steel
>>Linux has already won. Microsoft just hasn’t realized it yet.
Add CooCooCaChoo to that list
That has nothing to do with it. The ACPI was broken way before Windows came into supporting it. If you want to blame someone for the whole mess, blame the BIOS and MB producers who rammed ACPI into the product even though the standard hadn’t been ratified yet.
Microsoft then was stuck into a position between a rock and a hard place. They could be hard core zealots and say, “screw you, we’ll only support the OFFICIAL standard” and thus screw a large portion of consumerrs or, they try to create a ACPI driver which not only supported the standard but worked around the problems made by the MB makers.
This whole issue could have been avoided had the MB manufacturers many moons ago removed the BIOS and instead standardised on the EFI which is used for the Itanium and can be used as a replacement for the BIOS in x86 based machines.
Where are the drop in replacements for things such as
Ahead Nero Burner?, even better k3b.
Just when I thought things couldn’t possibly get any worse that XCDRoast, we have a new winner. Take a bow K3b.
Corel Draw runs nativly on Linux.
The only version ever released what version 9 which ran under wine. I owned a copy along with Wordperfect Suite (I had some notion of optimism hoping if I support Corel, things would improve), and it was crap. Slow, buggy and continuously crashed. Corel would have been better off creating a native porting using Mainsoft.
GIMP is great but Photoshop runs on Linux if you want.
Please, don’t make me laugh, it is a usability nightmare. It should be used as an example of how NOT to produce software. It took me 30minutes to find the bloody save dialogue box. Why aren’t all the functions located in one big bloody menu as with the case of Photoshop or Photo-paint (which I use).
OpenOffice is far more better then MS Office ,it writes directly to pdf imports and exports about 200 different formats, runs on almost every platform, MS Office just is not good enough!
Great, I can do the samething except with Corel Draw 11 and some copy ‘n pasting from Word. Nothing to write home about.
But he i am not stopping you from using your favorite buggy, crappy, unfree, virus magnet, backdoor ready OS.
I have yet to meet a Windows XP to Linux convert.
Hahha..i already met a couple and they where happy.
Well, I would be VERY surprised having sold many Windows XP systems, the vast majority were happy. Those that weren’t decided to use 2000 based on software compatibility grounds. Every person I have asked “would you like to give Linux a try”, their immediate answer is, “can I use my old software on it”, after saying no, they say, “oh, can I buy the same software by for Linux”, my response is no, their response, “well, that is bloody useless, I might as well stick with Windows”.
@archie steel
>>Linux has already won. Microsoft just hasn’t realized it yet.
Add CooCooCaChoo to that list
How can Linux win when there is never a desktop war to begin with? if you were to say this about the server space, linux is winning alot of converts, however, until there is some standards laid down that all and sundry conform to and that the bickering and whining betweent he various coders stops, Linux will continue to be relegated to the fringe of the computer world.
Exactly! Now let’s compare upgrading 50 application and utility software pieces, and 20 peices of system-related software to their latest stable versions, in Windows and Linux, in my case Gentoo, although it isn’t much more difficult (and far more GUIish) on RedHat with Synaptic.
Windows: Click on start, “Windows Update”, follow directions for installing each element, reboot for some of the upgrades. Then, search the web for each peice of application and utility software that needs updating. FOR EACH ONE, navigate the morass of the web page which hosts the upgrade, find it, download it, install it (after clicking through the EULA). Repeat until finished, or dead of old age.
Gentoo: emerge sync && emerge -U world
For some things you might need to log out and log back in, or /env/update-env. Done.
Your assumptions about my experience are wrong, and I never said Linux sucked. I asked a question about trying to understand linux package management when you are not using packages provided by the linux distributor.
Thanks for the smartass remark though. Unlike the other posts that tried to help me, you said a lot of words but explained nothing. Thanks again, I’m sure you know everything about everything.
To be honest you can’t do the some of the type of upgrades on any windows OS’s like you can do on a Linux system. When was the last time you downloaded and installed a brand spanking new kernel or a new GUI interface update from MS’s Windows Update site ?
No excuses should be made for a company that controls 90% of the desktops in the world. They have a lot of pull of and they could of easliy of pulled on the reigns of hardware makers at the time. With that much power and control, their comes the add wieght of responsibilty.
“Gentoo: emerge sync && emerge -U world ” –Eric
Yet another person thinking that expecting the distro maintainer to provide everything plus the kitchen sink is somehow better than a consistent installation method individual applications can use for distribution.
>Just when I thought things couldn’t possibly get any worse >that XCDRoast, we have a new winner. Take a bow K3b.
>The only version ever released what version 9 which ran
>under wine. I owned a copy along with Wordperfect Suite (I
>had some notion of optimism hoping if I support Corel,
>things would improve), and it was crap. Slow, buggy and
>continuously crashed. Corel would have been better off
>creating a native porting using Mainsoft.
>Please, don’t make me laugh, it is a usability nightmare.
>It should be used as an example of how NOT to produce
>software. It took me 30minutes to find the bloody save
>dialogue box. Why aren’t all the functions located in one
>big bloody menu as with the case of Photoshop or
>Photo-paint (which I use).
Lets face it you are bloody stupid, why is that my niece (6 years old) got it 10 secs and you 30min.? why? because you
try and use Linux, and its apps, as if they where windows..
Give it up and stick to windows if you are to dumb and ignorant to actually use Linux instead of trying you windows way on it, it just works differently that makes it not any more bad!
The future is free the future is LInux!
>> I have yet to meet a Windows XP to Linux convert.
Hi, my name is Richard, and I’ve switched from Windows XP to Linux.
(one year ago, for fulltime use)
Think free, think Linux.
Yet another person thinking that expecting the distro maintainer to provide everything plus the kitchen sink is somehow better than a consistent installation method individual applications can use for distribution.
Apart from the fact that ebuilds are a consistent installation method individual applications can use for distribution. I’ve installed software not supported by Gentoo and not in portage. These ebuilds I downloaded from their website into /usr/local/portage. Then I ran emerge on them. And guess what? The software was installed! Checked its own dependencies and everything! There is nothing about portage that means something has to be in the official portage tree to work.
Hi, I am CooCooCaChoo, I have used Linux for 8 years. In that 8 years I was promised that basic issues would be resolved. 8 years later I am still waiting. Neither the OSS community nor any distributor has addressed those issues.
Lack of ISV’s. 8 years ago I was told, “keep waiting, one day they will appear”. 8 years later, they have not appeared.
I’ve given Linux 8 years to get its sh*t together. This year was the last straw that broke the camels back. In regards to the server, 2.6 will be one heck of a kernel, and with its scalability improvements, it should punish Windows 2003 both on x86 and Itanium, HOWEVER, in terms of the desktop, Linux is still atleast another 3-4years away.
Until one can see mainstream software availability for Linux from the big brands, people won’t switch. Users have invested time and energy learning how to use a particular piece of software, they sure as h*ll not going to relearn a new tool just to satisfy some geeks anti-Microsoft dogma.
RE: Bas (IP: —.mxs.adsl.euronet.nl)
Obviously you haven’t got a clue. I’ve used Linux for 8 bloody years. 8 years I have seen the promise pile building up, and every year, it has been gradually expending. Instead of promising, how about DELIVERING.
In the xwin.org list I was shunned for having the suggestion of an HIG which is coupled with the XFree86/X11 specification so that all toolkits that ran on top of X would conform to that standard. I also tried to push through a unified look ‘n feel in which all toolkits would default too. Again, I was shuned. Doesn’t that tell you alone the complete anti-end-user dogma the *NIX community has.
As for GIMP and you 6 year old niece, bullcrap, absolutely bullcrap. Every user I have come across made the same assumption which I did, that was, click on the file menu at the top of the toolbox. I mean, just look at the rest of the applications available vs GIMP. Scribus for example is still a programme in development and atleast they have come up with a reasonable menu layout. GIMP is a mature application, I was expecting a heck of alot more from it.
Our company is finally running a corporate linux desktop image . If you asked me this 6 months ago then I would have laughed if desktop linux was coming at our work. I have been using linux in my desktop at home and office for over a year and one thing I will say I am never going back to windows. Even newbie users in my home and at work is very comfortable with Rehat 9.0 and I bet Mandrake 9.X is easier from what I have seen.
I remember when windows 95 came out all the DOS and windows 3.11 didnt want to move to windows 95 since it was so different ( I wish we used OS2 then I wouldnt have so many gray hairs using windows) beside that linux is here to stay.
People who use TIVO love the interface did you all know that runs in linux by the way I love my sharp zaurus!!!!
Its not forbidden to run commercial apps on Linux Darius.
I run Houdini and Maya they are not free. Photoshop, Office, Indesign, Illustrator all run fine under Linux.
There is no need for Windows..
The article mentions that you can get Mandrake for $40 while WinXP will cost you $200. However, there are three things to consider here:
1. Most newbies are going to go for the shrink-wrapped version of Mandrake instead of trying to download it for free and burn the ISO, especially when there’s more apps included with the commercial version.
2. Nobody I know who is using WinXP (and owns a legal copy) actually bought the full version. They either bought the upgrade because they owned a previous version of Windows, or else it came with their computer. Either way, you’re paying about $100 for it.
3. I know that at least some of the apps you mentioned above (and others as well) will require Crossover to run. So, assuming that a newbie downloaded Crossover Office for $54.95 instead of buying the shrink-wrapped version for $64.95 (which is higly unlikely), then you get a much more accurate picture of the actual price comparison:
– Mandrake Linux + Crossover ($94.95)
– Windows XP Home ($100)
Plus, you’ve still got to pay for the Windows apps you need to run under Linux (because the Linux native apps are either not up to snuff or else missing altogether), so the cost savings aren’t so great anymore. In addition, you’ve also got to deal with the following issues:
1. Whether Linux will detect all of your existing hardware (How well does Linux handle a PocketPC, an RCA Lyra MP3 player, and a Roland XV-5050 synth module?)
2. Whether or not all of your Windows apps are going to run (anybody ever get CoolEdit Pro 2 successfully running under Wine/Crossover with all the DirectX plugins working?)
3. And there’s still the issue of having to deal with the shitty font rendering out of the box. I’ve never been able to fix this entirely. In Libranet 2.8, even with TrueType fonts loaded, Mozilla looks acceptable in Gnome, but terrible in KDE. Why hasn’t this been fixed already? Can’t we get consistant font rendering in ALL of the DEs?
“1. Whether Linux will detect all of your existing hardware (How well does Linux handle a PocketPC, an RCA Lyra MP3 player, and a Roland XV-5050 synth module?) ”
This has nothing to do with the kernel or the distribution makers, This has everything todo with the producer of said product neglecting/refusing/ to support linux.
Isn’t the Mandrake thing a dupe, I seem to recall it being posted here once..
Whatever.
“”Apart from the fact that ebuilds are a consistent installation method individual applications can use for distribution.”” — Felix
Yes, completely, for GENTOO!
Now try using them on a Vanilla Redhat/Suse/Whatever distro.
Just noticed my comment has a typo, should read:
“Yet another person thinking that expecting the distro maintainer to provide everything plus the kitchen sink is somehow better than a consistent installation method individual applications can use for *any distribution.”
I don’t like the entire idea of the distro packager also managing distribution of the packages that run on the distro. It’s a situation that’s just begging to be misused.
Imagine this scenario.
People are buying Lindows, but not very many are signing up to Click-N-Run. Mr Robertson has a fun idea: “Let’s make the next Lindows break the FHS, not in a simple way, but in a huge way. Done properly I can probably even pass it off as making Linux more accessible for the Lindows user.” Hey presto, you have Walmart selling ‘Linux’ installed computers that are now locking their users into using Click-N-Run. “But they can still install from source,” I hear you cry. Sure, but ./configure, make, make install is not going to cut it anymore. Can the average user configure their way around a non-FHS system?
Hell, why stop there? Throw some non-standard paths into the source of the apps themselves and you lock in even further. You can do this secure in the knowledge that whatever changes the GPL forces you to return to the maintainer are not going to be accepted because they break the filesystem hierarchy.
Ok, so it’s just theoretical, and I pick on Lindows because Robertson is the most likely guy to try it (This man does not rate highly on the business ethics roll of honour). Let’s face it though, the GPL let’s you charge for customer service, it does set any restrictions on making service a prerequisite for application installation.
A standard installer for all distributions is the way forward, not distribution specific package managers. Unfortunately nobody’s ever going to write one, it isn’t a “sexy” enough project (Besides being damn hard thanks to all the distros pulling in different directions). Oh well, roll on another emacs clone.
learn before you troll. most of your statements are, quite simply, out of date.
“There is no co-operation between the different groups and worse still, problems that plagued the Linux desktop 8 years ago, such as poor copy and paste, still riddle the desktop. After 8 years, there is still no unified HIG, no unified directory layout or standard along the lines of UnitedLinux.”
Wrong, wrong, right, wrong, wrong.
There is co-operation between “the different groups” (I’m assuming you mean KDE and GNOME here); witness the FreeDesktop standards. I’ve never had a problem with copy/paste. Not once. There’s no unified HIG. Oh, boo hoo. Do all Windows apps follow one usability template? Let me think here…no. No, they don’t. Unified directory layout?! What have YOU been smoking?! *nix OSes have had one since Microsoft was in short trousers. Config in /etc, binaries in /usr/bin, libs in /usr/lib and so on and so forth. It’s part of the LFS, which also handily answers your last criticism. Thanks for playing.
“Or better yet, installing an application that doesn’t keep asking for more and more dependencies or fails to load because the idiot who compiled the package doesn’t state on the site what libraries need to be installed.
I don’t mind depencies, how about tell the user ABOUT what is required. If Libfoobah is required, provide a bloody link to the package so the users life is easier.”
Nooo. No, see, this might have been true for RPM-based distros maybe three years ago and Debian, god, I dunno, how long, Debian users? Five years ago? But now…no. Any distro worth its salt resolves its own dependencies (up2date, YaST, urpmi, apt). Learn before post.
“For the command you used, it is completely useless for a person who doesn’t use the same distribution that you use.”
Oh, CRIPPLING drawback! Learn the appropriate command for the distro you happen to use. How is that difficult?
“With Mac, all you do is download, uncompress (the dmg automatically mounts), double click on the mounted volume, and then drag it to the hard disk and voila, installed.
Why can’t it be that easy for Linux?”
Lemme see, that’s…hmmm…one, two, three, four steps. Hey, I don’t have k3b installed! Let’s install it.
[root@shuttle download]# urpmi k3b
To satisfy dependencies, the following packages are going to be installed (73 MB):
arts-1.1.2-4mdk.i586
galaxy-kde-kwin-0.9-2mdk.i586
k3b-0.8.1-6mdk.i586
kdebase-3.1.2-26mdk.i586
kdebase-kdm-3.1.2-26mdk.i586
kdebase-kdm-config-file-3.1.2-26mdk.i586
kdebase-servicemenu-1.0-8mdk.noarch
kdelibs-3.1.2-22mdk.i586
kdelibs-common-3.1.2-22mdk.i586
krootwarning-9.1-5mdk.i586
libarts-devel-1.1.2-4mdk.i586
libfam0-devel-2.6.10-2mdk.i586
libmad0-devel-0.15.0b-2mdk.i586
libpcre0-devel-4.3-2mdk.i586
mdklaunchhelp-9.1-3mdk.i586
Is this OK? (Y/n)
Oh, hey, that was tough. What was that? Oh yeah, one step. Sorry it’s SO MUCH MORE COMPLICATED than OS X. Obviously, my OS sucks and you rock.
“I completely agree. If the consumer wanted Linux and it wasn’t provided, they would do what most users do and ask a friend who is knowledgable about computers to install it. I have yet to meet ONE person who wants to replace Windows XP with Linux. Sure, I have met people who have replaced their Windows 9x with Linux, however, as I said, I have yet to meet a Windows XP to Linux convert.”
I’m one. Hi. I ran XP for six months non-beta and six-months prior to that in beta. The seventh time Windows Messenger came back from the dead without my due permission, it was either chuck the monitor out of the window or get Linux instead. Never regretted my choice.
K3b is the best CD-Burning application on any platform, period.
Gimp is very usable, I like it better (well, version 1.3) than Photoshop for non-print work. Don’t dis it just because the main menu is on the image window – which may be unusual at first, but you get over it in about, what ten seconds?
How can Linux win when there is never a desktop war to begin with?
Linux has already won because its progress cannot be stopped. It is evolving faster than Windows. There are more people involved – and now that IBM, Oracle, Novell, HP/Compaq and other big corporate players are involved, there is a lot of money involved as well.
Linux is winning because Munich, Extremadura, Thailand are only the tip of the iceberg. Your smug attitude is just a front – in any case, your bad faith is obvious when you claim to have been using Linux for 8 years and have not seen tremendous progress.
Forgive me, but I’m more enclined to believe Steve Ballmer and Bill Gates than you about the threat Linux presents to Windows. I think they know a little bit more about it than you do, and they’re obviously very concerned.
Linux has already one, and no amount of trolling will change that.
Oh, and by the way, I use Photoshop daily in my work, so I’m well-placed to compare it to GIMP. I actually have Photoshop installed on my Linux PC (via Crossover), but most of the time I use GIMP anyway.
Now, the one app I really wish there was an equivalent for in Linux is Illustrator. Some are getting there, but it’s not quite there yet.
CooCooCaChoo, I have one question for you. When was the last time you used Linux? What dependency hell? Copy and paste issues? Uniform interface? You perplex me.
21st century package managers in Linux install packages via one command, or optionally one click via a graphic user interface. Ever heard of urpmi, apt, emerge? Yes, they do resolve dependencies automagically for you too. Which begs the question, when was the last time you used Linux?
If KDE and Gnome aren’t providing a uniform enough environment for you, they I’m afraid I can’t help you. I mean much more uniformity can they get?
No, sir, Linux is not going to be Windows XP. No, sir, Linux is not going to be MacOSX. Yes, sir, Linux is going to be different. Heck if it tried to imitate any of them, I moving to amiga or some other under rated operating system.
Yes, I am sick of Windows or MacOSX. I want sometime different, something unique, something creative, something better. Windows will not be the standard by which Linux will operate on. Linux will or should set it’s own standards, just like MacOSX is flawlessly doing.
For christ sake, GNU/Linux is not a WindowsXP clone and it will never be. Yes, it’s different, deal with it.
Regards,
Mystilleef
Used Linux for 8 years..right!
Come on you never ever used it, not once….
Lame troll.
“CooCooCaChoo, I have one question for you. When was the last time you used Linux? What dependency hell? Copy and paste issues? Uniform interface? You perplex me.”
Dependency hell may be mostly solved in recent Linux distributions, thanks to URPMI etc. But the lack of a uniform UI and the primitive, inconsistent cut/copy/paste are still big problems IMO.
Even if Linux apps were more functional than Windows equivalents, they’re crippled by those flaws. Even the Apple Lisa in 1983 let you copy an image and paste it into a text document, but I can’t copy a selection in GIMP and paste it into OpenOffice in 2003! This is something that should be fixed ASAP.
CooCooCaChoo, I have one question for you. When was the last time you used Linux? What dependency hell? Copy and paste issues? Uniform interface? You perplex me.
Right now I am looking at a copy of Redhat Linux 9 and a copy of Crossover Office 2.0.1. Try installing Ximian desktop and numerous complaing about xyz not being installed, and when these files are automatically download, the installer gives up in a big screaming heap because it can’t install the dependency.
I’ve re-installed Redhat again, with default options, restarted the installation, again, same problem occured.
21st century package managers in Linux install packages via one command, or optionally one click via a graphic user interface. Ever heard of urpmi, apt, emerge? Yes, they do resolve dependencies automagically for you too. Which begs the question, when was the last time you used Linux?
I am look at it from a end users perspective. Do any of you actually have a CLUE about the end user? do you actually realise the end user is as thick as two short planks? do you actually realise that there are still a large portion who don’t actually realise they can have more than one application running at once?
These are the so-called “people” you are trying to sell the Linux desktop vision to. Users want to be able to do the same things they can on Windows. They don’t want to be told that they have to do something radically different. Why should they drop into CLI just to check what packages they have installed?
If KDE and Gnome aren’t providing a uniform enough environment for you, they I’m afraid I can’t help you. I mean much more uniformity can they get?
If you read what I wrote, I want a unified HIG and stronger co-operation between the various toolkits, desktops and XFree86. A unified standard needs to be layed down and developers put aside their egos for one moment and actually look at the large picture.
No, sir, Linux is not going to be Windows XP. No, sir, Linux is not going to be MacOSX. Yes, sir, Linux is going to be different. Heck if it tried to imitate any of them, I moving to amiga or some other under rated operating system.
I want neither of them immitated. I like KDE, I love GNOME, but I can’t stand the inconsistancy between the two desktops. If you are going to blame a group, blame GNOME. They started this whole competing standards BS when a bunch of trugging hugging GNU supporters whinged because qt wasn’t “free”. Had Linux standardised on KDE, the whole operating system would have moved forward in a unified fashion and we wouldn’t be having this discussion.
That is why I have headed to Windows after giving Linux 8 years to get its sh*t together. If suddenly tomorrow all the applications I need were ported and basic problems like copy/paste/cut were fixed, I would move to Linux in a flash, however, as I said, what is hold the desktop back are developers and their egos.
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=kiwiunixman+group:comp.os.linux.a…
I have been a paticipating member in COLA ( Comp.Os.Linux.Advocacy) for three years under various nicknames/handles.
Listen to me sonny. I started using Linux back in 1995-1994, slackware on a Pentium 75 with 8MB RAM and a crappy 1MB Advance Logic Graphics card. I’ve BEEN there when 2.2.x was released, I was there when 2.4.x was started AND FINISHED. I have been in the thick of it since its creation so don’t you get on your high horse declaring I know jack squat.
The distributions have had their chance in my view. I will continue looking into the community see how things are progressing but don’t expect me to suddenly turn around and adopt it 100% until I see things actually being fixed rather than promises being made.
For what’s it worth, I agree with you (even though I have often disagreed with you vehemently in the past). I’m CS undergrad (studying C++). I don’t mind obsessing over details in my own work (I’ll spend however long it takes to debug my or someone else’s code that I’m working on), but there is absolutely no reason for me to have to troubleshoot my own operating system. That’s ridiculous. Why doesn’t gaim launch the browser I told Konquerer is my default? Why doesn’t XMMS work with KDE (requires Esound, change the compile flags)? I don’t really care. 100, 200, 1000$, whatever- anything is better than wasting my time with bullshit like that.
Nice to see the reply.
Unfortunately I have a terrible habbit of my replies being VERY blunt. Having managed people before, I prefer the short, sharp and direct route rather than trying to drop subtle hints.
Regarding application, I have written some small application before, however, I find there are two types of programmers. The first is the perfectionist, they don’t want it to be released until everything is perfect, the there is the second one, “it compiles, lets ship it!”. Neither one is ideal. What there needs to be is weighing up quality with practicality.
As for the issue regarding KDE, konqueror and XMMS, it goes right back to the heart of the discussion. There is no unifed configuration between KDE and GNOME. Why do the two and completely different locations for the menu? have different ways of creating menu entries? why do the two desktops have different ways and locations for their over all desktop configuration?
Then go onto the HIG, why do we have two competing HIG’s? How is that going to benefit the user when confronted with two applications with two completely different layouts and artwork? Sure, competing toolkits are good for developers. I have said this in the past and I will remain saying it, HOWEVER, there need to be a unified HIG and artwork because uknown to many coders, the end user doesn’t give a flying continental over what toolkit is being used. What the end user does care about is being able to load up their application(s), get their task completed then move onto the next job.
Each toolkit has its advantages, and as you have seen over the last several years, the *NIX world is split between the C coders using GTK and C++ using qt. There is nothing wrong with that as so long at the coders stick to a standard.
This standard needs to be established NOW and conformed to NOW. Whether this be the GNOME HIG, KDE HIG, a hybrid of the two or even simply adopt and already established one such as Apples HIG.
As for the directory layout, yes, I know by default, when compiling in *NIX, they are actomatically installed into /usr/local, (this can be changed using —prefix=/usr —-exec-prefix=/usr ), however, IMHO, they should do what SUN does and plonk user applications in the /opt directory to make life a heck of alot easier.
“I’ve BEEN there when 2.2.x was released, I was there when 2.4.x was started AND FINISHED.”. — The 2.4 kernel is going to be maintained for a while. It’s not finished. The 2.2 kernel is still being maintained.
“I have been in the thick of it since its creation so don’t you get on your high horse declaring I know jack squat.”. — You’ve been in the thick of what??? The pre-1.0 kernel? Are you coding for the kernel, debugging the kernel? What have you been in the “thick of”?
“The distributions have had their chance in my view. I will continue looking into the community see how things are progressing but don’t expect me to suddenly turn around and adopt it 100% until I see things actually being fixed rather than promises being made.” — If you haven’t seen improvements to the kernel in all these years, you probably are not all that familiar with Linux.
I started using Linux back in 1995-1994, slackware on a Pentium 75 with 8MB RAM and a crappy 1MB Advance Logic Graphics card.
Big deal. I started using Windows when it was 2.0. (Heck, I used to program APL on IBM PCs soon after they came out!) Now I’ve used it all the way up to Windows XP (yet you don’t see me being arrogant and condescending about it). After giving Windows more than 10 years to get its shit together, I’ve had enough. It’s still virus-prone, weak on security, and not stable enough for me – and MS keeps on stifling innovation through its anti-competitive, monopolistic practices. So now Linux is my system of choice.
Unfortunately I have a terrible habbit of my replies being VERY blunt.
I don’t have a problem with your replies being brunt, I have a problem with them being devoid of value. You’re trolling and mistaking it for intellectual discourse. You talk through your hat and give out opinion as fact. You willfully ignore Linux’s amazing progress from nothing to chief Windows rival in 11 years, and avoid any debate on the recent advances of Linux on the corporate desktop (not to mention the steady growth in server space).
Linux may not be ready for all desktops – to conclude that it’s “not ready for the desktop” is intellectually dishonest – and listing out your “Linux credentials” as if it actually helped to support this opinion is downright pathetic.
I have been in the thick of it since its creation
Oh, so you are a kernel developer, now? What else, you’re going to tell us that you invented the Internet?
>Right now I am looking at a copy of Redhat Linux 9 and a copy >of Crossover Office 2.0.1. Try installing Ximian desktop and >numerous complaing about xyz not being installed, and when >these files are automatically download, the installer gives >up in a big screaming heap because it can’t install the >dependency.
>I’ve re-installed Redhat again, with default options, >restarted the installation, again, same problem occured.
Muwwaaha….like i said you approch Linux as if it is Windows. You do not have to REINSTALL THE WHOLE OS AGAIN BECAUSE YOU HAVE SOME DEPENDENCY SILLY!
And you are using Linux for 8 years and thick in kernel dev.? Right and i invented the electric light and the balpoint.
Give it up, take off your mask..
ps. You can always ask me to help you if you have some troubles with Linux, f.i. What dependency problems gave Ximian Desktop2 when you tried to install it..i might know the solution or you might google it. Anyway i run RedHat 9
with Ximian Desktop2 on it..no problems whatsoever.
1) I am an end user who has used Linux since the early 2.0 days. Using KDE when it first appeared.
2) I never said ANYTHING about the kernel. Get the hint? have you actually read ANYTHING I have posted? have you actually READ my praise for Linux 2.6? how about take a hint and buy a clue. The kernel HAS improved but the desktop has NOT improved at the same pace.
Right now I am looking at a copy of Redhat Linux 9 and a copy of Crossover Office 2.0.1. Try installing Ximian desktop and numerous complaing about xyz not being installed, and when these files are automatically download, the installer gives up in a big screaming heap because it can’t install the dependency.
I’ve re-installed Redhat again, with default options, restarted the installation, again, same problem occured.
Yes, I have occassionally run into problems when installing application programs on all operating systems I have used, Linux inclusive. But it has not been the end of my world, most especially with Linux. At least, you know what the problem is. At least you can get help. At least it’s not a missing proprietory .dll that is illegal to be shared over the internet. You are clearly not the norm of experienced Linux users/hackers/developers that I’ve encountered. All of which shy away from Redhat, Mandrake and {$insert corporate distro here…}. Most of the hackers/developers/enthusiast use distros like Debian, Gentoo, crux, etc, that provide almost limitless control, a ton of optimization options and ridiculous configurability. I guess my assumptions are just a myths.
I am look at it from a end users perspective. Do any of you actually have a CLUE about the end user? do you actually realise the end user is as thick as two short planks? do you actually realise that there are still a large portion who don’t actually realise they can have more than one application running at once?
I am an end user myself and so are you. There are software applications for mentally challenged individuals. Nowhere on the Linux seal does it say, “An operating system for mentally handicapped individuals.” So when has it become my job, or your job, or the job Linux developers to educate the ‘end user’ regarding the multitasking capabilities of modern operating systems. As far as I’m concerned, it is not our place to do.
These are the so-called “people” you are trying to sell the Linux desktop vision to. Users want to be able to do the same things they can on Windows. They don’t want to be told that they have to do something radically different. Why should they drop into CLI just to check what packages they have installed?
Users can do everything they do in Windows in Linux. However, I get exasperated when the same users expect things to be done the exactly same way. Some things are done smarter, some stupidly. Either it is a new culture of computing and new users should be open minded enough to embrace these new changes. Once again, Linux different than windows is, may the new ‘end user’ comprehend this. It’s like going to England and complaining about motorist driving on the right side instead of the left.
If you read what I wrote, I want a unified HIG and stronger co-operation between the various toolkits, desktops and XFree86. A unified standard needs to be layed down and developers put aside their egos for one moment and actually look at the large picture.
It is a daunting task. Game developers all use different user intefaces, layouts and HIGs, if I may. Despite these different user layouts from game to game, game players hardly yearn for a unified HIG or user interface or user layout. Instead users want tools that are intelligent, friendly and intuitive. Who cares about HIG? In my opinion, developers should have the freedom to use which ever HIG, user interface or layout that they think is efficient, friendly, intuitive and for which the learning curve is almost flat.
I want neither of them immitated. I like KDE, I love GNOME, but I can’t stand the inconsistancy between the two desktops. If you are going to blame a group, blame GNOME. They started this whole competing standards BS when a bunch of trugging hugging GNU supporters whinged because qt wasn’t “free”. Had Linux standardised on KDE, the whole operating system would have moved forward in a unified fashion and we wouldn’t be having this discussion.
Had Linux standardized on KDE, my reason for using Linux, freedom of choice and abundant options, would be tarnished. Not many people I know who like Gnome like KDE and vice-versa. In fact, quite a few can’t stand both. The good news is that they are free to choose which interface, feeling or culture sooths them. Also, not many people I know like the Windows desktop environment. The sad fact about that is that such users have to stick with a horrible semi unified HIG. Our uniqueness as individuals is easily translated to our desktop environment as Linux users. In contrast, I know I’m on a windows machine whenever I use one, boring and bland, or, colorful and flamboyant. And of course the task bar and start icon. Okay I’ll give windows credit for the ability to change your desktop wallpaper.
As far as I’m concerned the current diversification of user HIGs will evolve in such a way that the best principles are taken from each different project and in the future the least useful features of existing HIGs will be discarded. If Gnome can design a better HIG, let them go ahead. If KDE thinks Gnomes HIG isn’t appropriate for their project let them write theirs. If XXX DE likes aspects of GNOME and KDE’s HIG, let them combine the best features of both to come up with something creative. Unification will eventually occur but it will occur over time. Trying to force the ocean waves to go in the opposite direction, single-handedly, is a conspicuously foolish idea, indeed.
Regards,
Mystilleef
You’re still babbling about Linux? If you hate it so much then why don’t you just avoid talking about it. You’re going to have a heart attack one day. Everytime I read your posts I can see the vein popping out of your head, all because you want to tell people using Linux that they are wrong and should go use Windows. Please stay away from subjects involving Linux if you can’t act like an adult when you post.
RE: Bas (IP: —.mxs.adsl.euronet.nl)
Muwwaaha….like i said you approch Linux as if it is Windows. You do not have to REINSTALL THE WHOLE OS AGAIN BECAUSE YOU HAVE SOME DEPENDENCY SILLY!
I re-installed it because I stuffed around adding and updating the default packages. I reinstalled it to get back to the original setup which I assumed the Ximian Desktop was expecting to be there. By setting up a default installation I also assumed that the installer wouldn’t run into dependency problems I MAY HAVE CAUSED
And you are using Linux for 8 years and thick in kernel dev.? Right and i invented the electric light and the balpoint.
Who said I was kernel hacking? I was there IN THE THICK in regards to being an early adopter to Linux before the media and 2bit 14year old PC kiddies jumped onto the bandwagon with their merry little anti-Microsoft tune. Back when I JOINED the Linux community, the issue WASN’T Microsoft, but creating a superior operating system NOT bashing Microsoft, Apple or any other organisation.
ps. You can always ask me to help you if you have some troubles with Linux, f.i. What dependency problems gave Ximian Desktop2 when you tried to install it..i might know the solution or you might google it. Anyway i run RedHat 9
with Ximian Desktop2 on it..no problems whatsoever.
The issue was relating to installing CUPS, gimp-print, perl extensions such as Perl-PDL, Perl-Parse and perl-file-slurp. If you want to know, I did actually get it installed after sorting out those dependencies, however, we are looking at it from the users point of view. I can install it and work around issues, and so can you, the average user can’t. Heck, I was over at wwwwindowsxp.nu forum and a person wanted to know what a reboot is! these are the people you’re asking to drop down into CLI and sort out their dependencies wows?
The arguement isn’t over whether people like you or I can install it. If everyone was like you or I, Linux would have a market share of 80%, however, the vast, vast majority are like the above example. They are completely clueless about computers and don’t want to learn a thing about computers. You can chant “they should learn” till you’re black ‘n blue, but the average consumer will always in every case chose the easiest by lower quality way out.
RE: archie steel (IP: —.112-130-66.mtl.mc.videotron.ca)
Big deal. I started using Windows when it was 2.0. (Heck, I used to program APL on IBM PCs soon after they came out!) Now I’ve used it all the way up to Windows XP (yet you don’t see me being arrogant and condescending about it). After giving Windows more than 10 years to get its shit together, I’ve had enough. It’s still virus-prone, weak on security, and not stable enough for me – and MS keeps on stifling innovation through its anti-competitive, monopolistic practices. So now Linux is my system of choice.
I never USED Windows back in the good old days. I was a diehard Amiga/Atari/BBC Micro user. Microsoft was created by consumers like YOU who were sucked into the PC abyss. What stopped you from buying an Amiga back in the Windows 2.0 days? Heck, back in 1988, you could pick up a full Amiga kit for $1500 including a screen!
I don’t have a problem with your replies being brunt, I have a problem with them being devoid of value. You’re trolling and mistaking it for intellectual discourse. You talk through your hat and give out opinion as fact. You willfully ignore Linux’s amazing progress from nothing to chief Windows rival in 11 years, and avoid any debate on the recent advances of Linux on the corporate desktop (not to mention the steady growth in server space).
Who said I ignored it? I’ve used since 2.x for petes sake! I know how quickly Linux has grown and improved, HOWEVER that does not take away from the deficiencies which is suffers from. Instead of DENYING the existance of these issues, FIX THEM.
As for the server space, do you really think this whole “Linux revolution” happeneded in the last couple of years? are you really that naive? Ihug in New Zealand has been using Linux for their cache/proxy since it opened 7 years ago! using Linux on servers is nothing new, the only difference is that lowly PC users are now realising that there is an alternative to Windows or UNIX on the server. For everyone else, like my self, we ask, “what took so bloody long for people to notice?”.
Linux may not be ready for all desktops – to conclude that it’s “not ready for the desktop” is intellectually dishonest – and listing out your “Linux credentials” as if it actually helped to support this opinion is downright pathetic.
It isn’t ready for the generic desktop. We have people screaming saying that every man and his dog should move to Linux because it is ready. For offices with fixed requirements, Linux is MORE than adequate, however, for the end users desktop whose purpose constantly changes, Linux cannot provide a viable solution AT THIS MOMENT[/i] however, with the release of Linux 2.6, KDE 3.2 around the corner and GNOME 2.4 gradually taking shape, who knows what could happen? Adobe tomorrow may suddenly say they’re going to become a Linux ISV! stranger things have happened.
My comments are relating to the NOW, not the possible future. I have heard suth-sayers for years claiming that the Linux desktop is around the corner. Yes, it is around the corner, but not the immediate corner. The issue is not IF if will happen but when.
Instead of screaming at me, read the OSAF document FULLY . That is what I call a truthful assessment of the current situation. The question is whether people will act upon its findings and do something about it or will we have another conference and the same issues be raised again and the same people will promise to fix it.
I have refrained from commenting in this thread untill I had finished reading the OSAF document. It is a very valuable document analysing the current status of the Linux Desktop, making important ccncrete suggestions for the future development of of the Linux desktop platform and making an honest but in my view overly conservative set of predictions about the take up of the Linux desktop both overall and in various sectors.
I consider it to be overly conservative bacause it sees the process essentially as a linear development rather than that of exponential growth. Like both the OSAF authors and CooCooCaSCO I do no not think the current desktop is ready for the majority of home consumers. Of my professional colleagues at work I would recommend to only a small subset of them that they adopt Linux home at the moment. Having to sort out their Windows problems for them I have learned that the understanding of computer systems for many of them is pretty limited and their inabilty to sit down and empirically solve problems on a system is quite surprising since they are scientists.
However I do think the Linux desktop is ready for widespread corporate and goverment deployment. It is certainly ready for use a standard desktop for transactional workers. Furthermore I think virtually any organisation can completely replace Windows on every desktop including those creative workers secretaries and CEO’s.
There would have to be some provision for certain essential apps not running under Wine/Crossover but his can be covered by running windows as a vm (in smaller operations) or by offering thin client access to a windows server for those few people that really need a specific windows app in larger organisations. To do this would require a well planned deployment but could phased in, drawing on the lessons of previous deployments with both transactional workers and specialist technical workers.
Such deployments can be done with Linux as it is now and with software that is curently available. This is not going to happen over night but I am sure this will happen and will become increasingly common especially in Europe and Asia.
I am still confident that Linux will become the predominant desktop environment in five to ten years.
I completely agree. I have NEVER ruled out Linux, however, my comments relate to Linux TODAY not what COULD happen in 5-10 years time. As I said previously, it isn’t a matter of IF it will happen, but WHEN.
>The issue was relating to installing CUPS, gimp-print, perl >extensions such as Perl-PDL, Perl-Parse and perl-file-slurp. >If you want to know, I did actually get it installed after >sorting out those dependencies, however, we are looking at it >from the users point of view. I can install it and work >around issues, and so can you, the average user can’t.
You got a point there…
For an average user this is to difficutt but then again would the average user put in: wget -q -O – http://go.ximian.com |sh
to get the Ximian desktop, i do not think so..thus not a good example. I have helped people switching from Windows (95/98/me/xp/2002) to Linux/BSD and i must admit it has cost me much time to get things configured for them, but that is also the thing a love about GNU/Linux its yours to explore its open and you can make it work as you choose to.
Xandros for example did a very nice job for the average user so did Mandrake, Lindows and Shoalin Linux.
You got a point there…
For an average user this is to difficutt but then again would the average user put in: wget -q -O – http://go.ximian.com |sh
to get the Ximian desktop, i do not think so..thus not a good example. I have helped people switching from Windows (95/98/me/xp/2002) to Linux/BSD and i must admit it has cost me much time to get things configured for them, but that is also the thing a love about GNU/Linux its yours to explore its open and you can make it work as you choose to.
Xandros for example did a very nice job for the average user so did Mandrake, Lindows and Shoalin Linux.
In regards to the installation of Ximian. When you install it and depencies are missing, why does it re-download them again? why not simply as for the user to install the CD required? Apart from that, once Ximian desktop was up and running, if I was in a position to run Linux as a desktop, that is what I would deploy.
One thing I couldn’t get over was how quickly Evolution now loads. Lets hope that it keeps progressing.
I agree Xandros had made a great start in the desktop battle, however, I hope soon, once 2.6 is released, one of the established vendors create a distribution based around it.
Regarding wine, if I could run Corel Graphics Suite 11 under wine on Linux, I would move to it in a flash.
For Joe or Jane office worker, whose PC is maintained and software is installed by a professional, sure, the Linux desktop dream has arrived, however, for the end user with next to no knowledge about computers, it is still atleast 1 year away, however, that does depend on what happens between now and then.
The issue isn’t so much the techical, low level side of GNU/Linux but more the general use/desktop aspect of it. Redhat has made a good start with a unified look ‘n feel. Lets hope some desktop ISV’s jump on board and start producing those software titles that are in heavy demand.