In this guest column at DesktopLinux.com, former SCO evangelist and Samba.org team leader John H. Terpstra weighs in on market perceptions about Linux and its suitability for the desktop. Interviewing a sample group –- that included 30 people evenly split in the Linux and MS camps — Terpstra discovered each group cited the very same arguments in defending their OS of choice! The author sought definitive answers about the state of Desktop Linux and reasons for and against a switch to Linux. The results, and key factors, were not as expected.
Perceptions: Is Linux a Suitable Desktop Platform?
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli
In fact it is what i see everyday. Windows users don’t know they can do the same with linux. They are generally misinformed. I’ve showed Linux to some friends and now they are in love with it and are slowly dropping windows XP. Before some even believe Linux was _only_ a console! They got shocked when they saw the reality!
The simple fact is, Linux can’t please everyone. The problem is that most of the advocates I’ve met (In real life) seem to be foaming-at-the-mouth anti-MS zealots. If we could get some real linux experts to hold a seminar for CTOs, CFOs and CEOs, showing them a real, fair comparison between Linux and Windows, I’d be willing to bet most of them would come away more willing to embrace the benifits Linux can give them.
> Windows users don’t know they can do the same with linux.
Hmm… Funny that I read this right now, 30 seconds after replying on the linux forum on a guy who is trying to find screenwriting software for Linux, and we are not finding any… And to run an older version of Final Draft, you need to use WINE which is in by no means easy to configure or install when the user is using the most popular Linux distros, like Red Hat and Mandrake.
Don’t fool yourself, Linux is not as easy or as full software-wise as Windows is. Sure, it can do 80% of what most people want to do with a computer. But for that 20% left, where people have specific needs and Linux is not able to fullfil those, these people are always returning back to Windows (e.g. Quicken, 3d games etc etc). Sure, geeks will stay with Linux, but normal people (large majority) won’t. Linux gains a lot of momentum lately, but we don’t see much “people’s software” getting ported. Mostly development and server stuff, but not people’s software.
Well I’m a Linux user and ‘Windows users don’t know they can do the same with linux’ is a non correct statement. Unfortunately you can’t do the same with Linux at least to a certain point you can but as soon as it goes into commercial stuff and commercial standard Software then Linux reaches it’s limits. No Rational Rose, No AutoCad, No Photoshop, No SAP/R3 (only some examples, some of them are there some not but the list can be expanded easily). Let’s not talk about Windows or Linux for a moment, speak about the applications existing. Many people limit the sentence ‘they can do the same with linux’ with listening to mp3’s and writing emails. As soon as it comes to professional software written by companies who investigate millions in these projects it’s over on linux. I don’t expect that these companies going to release these softwareprojects as OS specially not if their whole roots are based on this Software. OpenOffice was an exception. Who is going to write these missing Software on Linux and probably offer it as OpenSource ? Maybe some little kids of an age of 15 with spots on his face going to write it so a company who makes serious business is going to contact his customer and say ‘look some little kid hacked this software and now I’m going to sell it to you. Sorry I can’t promise if this software works perfectly’.
Sorry, but how should this work ? No offense but we should look over the border and don’t limit our sights on all the 20000 Mailers, Editors, MP3 players etc.
Why do people waste their times asking questions like: “Is Linux a Suitable Desktop Platform?” Sure it is! But for a particular class of users! For some of us, Windows is not a suitable desktop platform. It is barely passable for me. However, plenty of people find it adequate… and some even like it! Linux is good enough for me, yet I choose to use OS X as my commercial desktop of choice. And beyond that, Squeak Smalltalk is my personal ‘suitable desktop platform,’ which I prefer beyond all else.
No truth or intelligence can ever be foudn at the bottom of some absolute, all-or-nothing bucket of reasoning. Linux will never be for everyone. Nor will Windows. Get over it.
Heh, this time I fully agree to Eugenia here
Conclusion: Clearly, the anti-Linux sentiment is reflective of pro-Linux opinions that alienated the pro-Windows people. No-one likes to be told that they have made the ‘wrong’ decision.
I’m sorry, I know there are some very respectable Linux administrators who use Linux solely for reasons of technical merit.
What’s being described here is the “Linux attitude.” This is the face put forth to the world by the most vocal users of Linux, and they’re all out of touch with reality.
As far as desktop operating systems go, there is obviously no contest. Windows has Linux beaten hands down, as does OS X.
The problems begin with file management, and continue on with file associations. There aren’t any good, usable file managers (that I’ve tried so far…) I haven’t tried the Xandros file manager yet, but Nautilus is abominable. Konqueror is a few steps up, but it’s bloated and buggy. Lacking any sort of “registry”, file associations must be manually configured in every application. DnD support in X is virtually non-existant. The clipboard is virtually useless. Multilanguage support is terrible. The GUI APIs are abominable, and the interface design tools are mediocre at best (i.e. Glade) API standardization is slow to come, and library interdependancies and conflicts and reimplementations of solutions which cover the same problem domain (xfs-tt, Xft/Xft2, Xv/DGA/DGA2, Freetype/Freetype2) are everywhere.
It’s mainly a lack of decentralization in all aspects of the Linux desktop effort. There’s no central body dictating the API design, no central body dictating component interoperability, and no central body dictating how new applications should be installed/uninstalled.
The main problem is there’s no way to fix this, save for things like… Lindows. The Linux development effort is too decentralized already.
And of course, everyone becomes stubborn when they’re being told what to think by zealots all the time…
But for that 20% left, where people have specific needs and Linux is not able to fullfil those, these people are always returning back to Windows (e.g. Quicken, 3d games etc etc).
Intercompatibility of the files produced by accounting/billing programs is also a big issue. I don’t know if there are any open source alternatives to things like QuickBooks/Peachtree/Timesheets, but how are you going to get your accountant to set up your company files for you in one of these programs, provided they exist. Find an accountant who also likes Linux? When it comes time for your accountant to do your taxes, will these programs export all aspects of your data that your accountant will require into a format that he/she can use?
There’s a dearth of Linux applications. This is what is keeping Linux from being a complete desktop replacement and complete server replacement.
How to make Linux more accessible to ISV’s is an interesting problem given all the quirks of Linux.
Microsoft made a rather large chunk of change by making Windows the premier platform for ISV’s.
The challenge is clear for the Linux community. One thing that is easy to see — the software tools have to become more accessible. And Linux development knowledge has to be packaged for greater access. Etc, etc.
I believe it will all happen in time. Linux is here to stay and will end up being the dominant desktop platform.
Running the latest version of everything on a desktop computer at home will make Linux an interesting (and cheap) alternative for those interested in computers. Security holes will be fixed fast and the popular pieces of software will come in new versions for you to enjoy and fiddle around with. This is what a lot of the linux geeks love, at least for some time.
But we are no longer talking about these people when it comes to most users. Even though I myself sometimes dabble with installing gentoo or freebsd on my second computer and play around, and I work with computers as well, I don’t run those on my main machines, I run XP.
And why is that? Because it means way fewer problems for me. I have a huge software library to choose from, I can run Dev studio .NET (which really really kicks ass) and other pieces of software necessary for my work, and I only have to click a few times when I need to update my computer. I don’t have to worry about my version of the OS being dumped after a year, the fixes will keep on comming. And I don’t have to learn a whole lot just to use my OS (since I used to run Linux as a desktop machine for several years I do know most, and I am a computer geek, but I still couldn’t find the time to get FreeBSD to a decent state) and I don’t have to spend a lot of time on it. I have enough with work, GF and aikido.
So what did I actually want to say with my rant? (I am beginning to question my writing abilities myself now) Well, I just wanted to point out that there are other things that needs to be fullfilled besides “I can do X with Linux”. Most of us know what linux can and can’t do by now. And there are two ways people can take Linux on the Desktop from this point. Either wake up to the facts and making a product out of the whole thing (there are WAY too many commcercial Linux vendors, they should join forces to avoid dublicating work and doing stuff like writing proper documentation of the whole system), or simply chill and improve anything that they personally feel needs improving.
I would suggest giving up the “win over” dogma and work on improving things instead. If Linux were as good as the Linux advocates says it is, everyone would use it by now…
Eugenia : it is true that some people really need some particular softwares. But i really think it is not the majority, based on the people i know. In fact games are probably the most important problem. I’d really like to have some of the games i see for windows but i don’t play that much and there are already several (but far from enough) games for Linux.
Another problem for “people’s software” is that companies are waiting that more people use Linux for porting their softwares and some people wait to have the softwares they want to run with Linux … Hard to solve :-
oGALAXYo
Do you really think that free softwares are written by “little kids of an age of 15 with spots on his face”. I don’t know in what world you live! There are some talentuous teenagers but free softwares are written by highly competent and experimented people. Do Apache, Mozilla or KDE/gnome seem to be written by kids?
By the way, you’ll be happy to know that SAP works under Linux, as well as National Rose …. You are just misinformed, it is what i said in my first post.
And about the guaranty of software, do you think companies who make proprietary softwares can promise that the software will work perfectly? They don’t, because they just know that all softwares have bugs.
I think you should read a little bit more about Linux … you’ll be surprised!
> Do Apache, Mozilla or KDE/gnome seem to be written by kids?
Sure there are talented people working on these Software. No doubt and I don’t want to seed a prejudice here – Maybe it was a bit harsh. By making a comparison to little kids then I only liked to express the seriousity of Software and how it’s looked in the business. To write technical Software which requires Mathematical skills, skills in physics, mechanics, biologics etc. This level of knowledge is only available for people who went through some sort of Highschool or better University before. Many people sure have that knowdlege but not all. And I seriously doubt that companies who have a good relationship to their well paying customers have people working for them that don’t offer these skills or who are not able to work in teams on a project. Unfortunately I’ve seen a lot of people not able to work in teams on Linux who develop applications. We also need to see the seriousity of these people.
> By the way, you’ll be happy to know that SAP works under
> Linux, as well as National Rose.
I know that’s what I wrote if you have taken the time to read my comments.
> (only some examples, some of them are there some not but
> the list can be expanded easily)
The quote. By the way It’s called Rational Rose and I brought them up as examples only.
> And about the guaranty of software, do you think companies
> who make proprietary softwares can promise that the
> software will work perfectly? They don’t, because they
> just know that all softwares have bugs.
And here is the difference that I like you to understand. There is no warranty from these companies that their commercial application is not containing any bugs. But I can held them repsonsible for that I have everything in my hands:
I can say ‘Look please go and fix this software or give me my money back because your software is not going to promise what it meant to do’.
And I’m being treatened (?) seriously here since I’m a customer who paid for the software and the company knows they depend on this customer. They can’t take bad press from this customer outside which only hurts their company. If they do mistakes over and over then they can close the portals or the customer can choose someone else where he buys the software. Other in open source. You are being told to fix the software on your own. This is a disaster if you run a company where every hour means money. You can’t spent 5-6 hours on fixing the Open Source software.
> I think you should read a little bit more about Linux …
> you’ll be surprised!
Yeah I’m using Linux for many years but this doesn’t mean I run with closed eyes through the world. The business requires and measures with other values. There is good software on Linux no doubt but think on what I wrote.
The article can be summed up as “There’s a gap, caused by perceptions, and misperceptions on both sides”. The answer for anyone crossing either way is the same one you would have gotten a year ago, or two years ago. “It depends”, the thing thought is that the scope of, is enlarging, and the targets are narrowing. Note the onion-like development of Linux, from the kernel to the apps. Those who’ve been patient will be rewarded (assuming you haven’t already
.
Want Linux to compete for my desktops? Try this:
1) standardize the damned shortcuts. I don’t want thirty different cut/paste methods or varying window close shortcuts!
2) Standardize the GUI! Why should I choose from bloated KDE or bloated GNOME or XFCE or Blackbox or whatever? It’s bullshit, and the only people who want all these ridiculous choices are hardcore nerds.
3) Hell, while you’re at it, why not just make a “standard” Linux distro.. wanna know how much freaking research I went through to choose Mandrake the first time? Now I’ve tried about ten different distros, and they’re all wildly different.
4) Standardize config file locations!!!!! Make a registry (like the GNOME registry clone, I can’t remember the name) or make little .ini files in the program directory, or whatever, but MAKE THEM ALWAYS THE SAME! Right now it varies from distro to distro, and it’s annoying.
5) Ditch Xfree86. If people wanted guaranteed high latency they’d probably ask for it. Notice that Linux has a tiny market-share, approximately commensurate with the percentage of people who can stand crappy GUI response times on a regular basis. This correlation is hardly accidental… also notice that whenever Xfree crashes, due to a rogue program or whatever, the shoddy Linux reputation tarnishes just a little bit more for each new user. Sure, the OS itself might not crash, but the desktop just vanished. What’s the difference to a user? NONE. Think about it.
6) Hide the CLI. Users don’t need it. BeOS is a good model to emulate in this regard. Also, if the CLI is going to play a big part in the OS operation, why not make all the utilities have the same options (or switches, or whatever you call ’em) so that a user need not learn all fifty command-line switches for each of three hundred commands before genuine CLI usability is achieved?
7) Case sensitivity is a big bad no-no. Case preservation is OK, but when you try to trip people up with case sensitivity it gets annoying fast.
8) Port InstallShield or something. URPMI is useless, APT is OK but too complex, and RPM is a lost cause. Of course, to do this, the whole annoying UNIX programming paradigm of “reusable code” has to be fixed…
9) Make a damned monolithic program! Package all your stupid binary dependencies together! Do WHATEVER it takes, but DON’T make me resort to your f*cking CLI to install a program! Dependencies are not cool, no matter what the Linux people say.
10) Reduce the ridiculous reliance on source code for patches. Honestly, who has the time to compile KDE? Or the Linux kernel? Only a few nerds working in their parents’ basements. Anybody seriously interested in getting things done avoids source code and the inevitable compilation like the plague. Sure, you can often get binaries, but the underlying dependence on source code holds Linux back from any kind of desktop viability.
11) Drivers. I’ve got hardware that requires either immature Linux drivers that are horribly buggy, or excellent Windows drivers that never crash my system. Guess which I prefer.
I’ll stop here, there’s too much more to list. Good luck Linux people. Of course, I’d much rather see OpenBeOS succeed, but that’s beside the point.
You wrote :
No Rational Rose, No AutoCad, No Photoshop, No SAP/R3
For me it means that you say that “Rational Rose” (sorry for the bad spelling … tired) and SAP/R3 don’t run under Linux. And they do run under Linux.
About AutoCad i hope they’ll port it soon. It is made for Unix so it shouldn’t be much more hard than a recompilation.
Yeah but there is more than just a few apps, I tried to explain it sorry if I failed.
There are versions of some, but not all, of the Rational software for Unix. I use the Rational suite at work, and it does NOT work on Linux.
Given the massive investment by IBM in Linux, and IBM’s recent purchase of Rational, that may change soon, however.
The only things standing in the way of massive Linux adoption are available programs and development standards. Using best practice standards won’t turn Linux into Windows-it will just make it better.
James, (mostly) nicely said.
but windows users ARE stupid!
because Linux users have a reputation of not wanting to pay for it?
2) Why should not i have the choice ? Why do you beleive one is best for all ? KDE/GNOME can’t run on old hardware, window maker can do it.
3) distro are different on installation and high level management configuration, but basic “1D” tools (basic in there interface but full featured) are always the same. The Linux Standard Base try to make any program run on every distro.
4) 99% of the config file are in /etc/ directory some use /etc/<program_name>/ when they need many of them. The rest of the config file are in user directory (for user preference) mostly in ~/.<program_name>. Otherwise look at .conf file (locate .conf | grep <program_name>) in extreme cases. So i don’t understand your point.
5) XFree run on dozen of different plateforme and this portability decrease performance. Network transparency do the rest. In all cases, if X crash, you could always kill it with a remote connection. It’s much faster than reboot. Never the less, X crash less often than windows…
7) It’s juste a kind of habit. <tab> press and auto-completion do the right job 99% of the time.
8) “URPMI useless and apt too complexe” is that a joke !! You can’t have much simpler and powerfull tools. I need a program, i tape urpmi <my_program> or apt-get install <my_program> How this could be simpler ? <my_program> could even be gnome or KDE ! All dependances, all needed librairy are install ! Then few seconde/minutes later, the program work.
You need disk space ? urpme <the_program>, apt-get remove <the_program>.
You look for a particuler binaries ? “urpmf <binaries>” “apt-cache search <binaries>”
How this could be more simple ???
9) dependancies are not a choice. It’s a fact ! So you must manage them. How many times i had install windows program that said “you have this english package do you want to install the french one ?” and then window never reboot… How many times windows program want to scratch more recent library !
10) patches ? use patches if you like or use the packages of the distribution : urpmi.update -a; urpmi –auto-select; or apt-get update; apt-get urpgrade; How could you make it more simple ?
Linux kernel needs 5 min to compile. KDE much more that’s a fact.
11) drivers… Few hardware maker develop drivers for linux and beside that they never give information about hardware interface. But on supported hardware the work is much better ! ATI driver is my best example. Completly crapy under windows (so much crapy that i bought an nvidia) and completly stable under XFree…
Of course, you CANNOT do everything on Linux what you can do on Windows. Think about the games, and the new hardwares and all the softwares (ArchiCad, AutoCad) what are used for working. This is NATURAL, because Linux is young. But getting better. Take a look at the timeline! How does the Linux worked 2 years ago and what is the situation now? See the changes! We must wait until Linux is getting enogh popular, to infulense de BIG software companies to develop their products to Linux. (I’m working at a big sw company, and we just finished the porting of our product to linux. I don’t want to tell which one is that, sorry. I don’t want to be fired.
)
So, the matter of the fact is, we must be patient for a while the applications are getting better and (all of) the hardware companies delivers a linux driver also with their products. I know, I know! There are some already, but not ALL OF THEM! I’m sure about that, this will change…
This is something Linux _developers_ (well, more exactly GUI developers) should have in mind: some people fear choice. They don’t want to customize anything. They want precise and unchanging rules on how to use the system.
One must develop for these, too. IMHO, KDE has done this with a great deal of success and still keeps great configurability for advanced users. Of course, there will always be people who complain about too much food in their plates.
I have used Linux as desktop for some years and started to use Windows at work recently. Few external differences in the OSes themselves, most diffeerences are in the applications.
The argument to use Windows is basically “because everybody uses it”. Quite the same idea used to promote English as an universal language.
Sorry, not enough for me. And, from the constantly growing Linux userbase, I guess not enough at all.
Lacking any sort of “registry”, file associations must be manually configured in every application. DnD support in X is virtually non-existant. The clipboard is virtually useless. Multilanguage support is terrible. The GUI APIs are abominable, and the interface design tools are mediocre at best (i.e. Glade)
This ought to be the canonical example of anti-Linux foaming-at-the-mouth. You’ve taken a number of minor issues (e.g. mediocre DnD and clipboard support), exaggerated the problems until they are ‘virtually non-existant’ and ‘virtually useless’ and then tacked on some more issues that no-one in their right mind would criticise (a desktop that is translated into 47 languages but only requires one set of binaries to support all 47 somehow deserves ‘Multilanguage support is terrible’?). This is almost up to Microsoft’s inspired levels.
Being the good-natured soul that I am, I can only assume that this is some kind of biting satire on the entrenched attitudes of some Windows users, because it’s quite good if it is. Next time give us a little bit more of a warning though, eh? Some people might misinterpret you and foam right back at you.
I’m working at a big sw company, and we just finished the porting of our product to linux. I don’t want to tell which one is that, sorry. I don’t want to be fired.
Hint: don’t post to OSnews from work then, it kinda gives the game away. Good that they are though.
i think the following 2 lines hit the nail right where one is supposed to (the head) (even though i still prefer linux over windows)
“There are NO open source alternatives to MS Access”
absolutely an obstacle. people keep sending me mdb files which i cannot open. i always have to walk them through making an export, and then myself importing it somewhere
“MS Visual Studio is much better than any open source IDE (2 mentions) — Linux IDE tools are back in the Dark Ages! (1 mention)”
absolutely true, no matter what you say, no ide matches VS .NET,
i know emacs is rock solid and fast, and VS is bloatware and runs slow like molasses, but stuff like code completion, error checking whily you type, easy project management etc, are just the coolest
When my mom can use Linux without compiling the kernel to get that new hardware working, then its usuable.
I know this is a little cliche, I have to admit that Linux *is* getting easier, more vendors support Linux, which in the will lead to a bigger userbase.
Ive seen and heard that linux actually fit as a desktop OS, its fast, very stable and can look really good ( not like a candybar as XP ).
What I really miss is BeOS apps, that then we can talk about a Easy OS, to install, to use and to manage.
Maybe OBOS, or the BlueEyedOS guys will change this in the future, if they attract a bigger market then the last one.
I can only hope and pray for that day.
I’m sure that a normal user can do normal things with a normal Linux distribution, but why? When they buy their pretty little Dells, they come with Windows XP installed. So don’t give me that crap about it being cheaper. Windows is just easier. What about those that use AOL? Try explaining to them that they need to find a regular ISP, use Kdial (or whatever it’s called) to log in, open up Mozilla, install and configure Evolution, and then download the RPMs for gAIM all to get it to work!? It’s just not as easy. Sure, they could, but why would they? They don’t care that it’s open…they don’t care that if they wanted they could serve a webpage and an FTP server to 500 clients…they don’t care that the kernel supports 64 processors…all they care about is that when you turn it on you can’t use it. And that’s exactly the problem. Installing applications is still extremely difficult, and configuring them is even more difficult. It’s not as easy as it sounds. Whereas with Windows you turn it on, get that AOL CD that came in the mail, plug the phoneline into the computer, and then it walks you through EVERYTHING. Not so with Linux.
“There are NO open source alternatives to MS Access”
You means something that could *read* *.mdb file ! This format should be closed as always ! pgaccess is a front-end for postgresql SGDB that’s works well. Even for little project, apache+mysql+php(+cvs) could do the job.
” but stuff like code completion, error checking whily you type, easy project management etc, are just the coolest”
Completion is used by emacs since end of ~70’s. (ctrl-/). You could add also the speedbar and the tags. Kdevelopp is quite nice, too. gdb was much powerfull than MS debuguer when i test it.
For projet management, look at http://www.gforge.org or http://www.picolibre.org that’s much more than needed (Mantis is good bug trackin also, better than bugtrack).
Also Glade could help for gui construction.
Your almost true.
“Installing applications is still extremely difficult,”
That is false with mandrake and debian. (see apt-get and urpmi) this is far more easier than under windows ! (and it always work…) And never forget that “true beginner” didn’t install anything even under windows. He just ask to somebody who knows.
“Configuring” is an other point. It could worlk “alone” (mandrake, knoppix(a debian flavor) or Red hat ) or it could be a pain if it doesn’t that sure.
And nobody fight against AOL to produice a CD that work also under linux.
Beside the technical point, a lot of beginner are very interret about liberties, data control by one compagny, “Microsoft Tax” even to read state data (!), the monopoly threat…
> For some of us, Windows is not a suitable desktop platform.
an important point, that it is often forgotten.
I came to be a linux user because, after windows 3.11 wiped out my undergraduate thesis from my hard disk, i was desperate to find an alterntaive. I could not afford a Mac and i rememeber i installed an almost free version of OS/2 whi choked my humble 486. Then i discovered linux, and i found i could trust and use my computer again. I have bought a new computer only twice in the last 8 years — would it have been possible with windows?
Listen all you Windowsheads. The road to world domination by Linux is not through persuading Joe Public to install it on their functional windows boxes now. It is through the corporate desktop. It is going to start in in big corporations where Unix orientated CTO’s who want to clear away all those Windows desktops join together with bottom line watching CFO’s to adopt a thin client based Linux corporate desktop (cheaper and easier to administrate).
The steady increase in corporate desktop usage will mean more apps ported to Linux and this will cause a feedback cycle resulting in exponential growth. The increasing number of workplace users will start to want to use the same system at home as they use at work. This will begin a cycle of increase home Linux use – with the consequent porting of home use apps and the big PC manufacturers breaking with the MS tax and shipping pre-loaded Linux PC’s for home use. The exponential growth phase of home Linux use begins.
This is the third and final exponential growth phase of Linux (the first is with servers and is currently in place – no one in their right mind installs a windows server nowadays).
So to sum it up by 2008 MS will be a dead duck and the vast majority of the worlds computers will be running some sort of open source *nix – world domination
http://www.trolltech.com/newsroom/announcements/00000120.html
Hopefully this might mean that in the future we could see some native linux ports of more Adobe software!!
It seems every week or every other day, there is an article asking if Linux has reach the desktop. Well, Microsoft has spent the last ten years developing Windows. Only in the past few years has the Linux community been pushing Linux to the desktop. Give Linux some time.
Some of the people responding to this article seem to want something similar to Windows. I would say then use Windows because it is a better fit. As someone pointed out, it does come with every computer sold. Linux does not need a Windows like ‘Registry’. I have heard that the MacOS doesn’t use a ‘Registry’. Linux could come up with its own way of dealing with files and the applications used to view and create them. If you want something that looks, smells, and taste like Windows, then use Windows. BeOS did things its way. MacOS does things its way. Linux will be Linux.
Desktop users may not benefit much from Linux. What is the difference of a MP3 player on Windows compared to a MP3 player on Linux? What makes creating a document using a word processor on Windows different than using a word processor on Linux? Since Microsoft Windows comes with the computer you buy from a store, you might as well stick to that unless you want more control over your PC. Many people like to have a greater amount of control over their PC. Complexity comes with greater control.
The business sector can definitely benefit. Companies like IBM can fit your whole business with Linux at a cheaper price and give your IT person more control over the whole network.
In the future Linux will be a desktop environment but in its own way. It may not be exactly like Microsoft Windows.
So quit trying to make Linux and every other OS into Windows.
I hate this “people don’t want choice” or “people can’t understand choice” thing.
There is only one answer to that: they should bloody well learn.
People deal with choice in everything else. Cars, books, what clothes to wear today, microwave ovens, radio stations… the list is endless.
It doesn’t cause them any problems with that. So just because choice is something *new* to computers, is not an argument for not having it! That’s soooo stupid.
James says “I spent 10 hours before I chose Mandrake”. Ooooh, big deal. It’s called market research, and it’s required for pretty much anything unless you’re happy with potentially being ripped off. Do you shop around for clothes? Computers are no different.
I mean, damn, I wish people would stop posting ridiculous “what Linux needs to be on the desktop” posts and articles. It’s got to the point where 99% of them are just trolls, even the well meaning ones. Duh. We know it’s hard to install software, we know Linux is different and therefore scary to new users, we know there are certain things that need standardising and all these things are getting done. We also know that a lot of peoples “suggestions” are misinformed.
Ditch X? Ditch dependancies? What is the point of even saying these things? It’s been discussed a million times, and always when people sit down and take time to learn what they are talking about, they find that actually most of what they thought they knew about such systems was wrong, or they are blaming the wrong part of the system.
Ah man. Reading this stuff can be so frustrating sometimes. Especially from Bascule, who normally posts fairly well balanced content. Pointless rants about stuff he clearly knows little about, and is interesting in knowing about even less, is just a waste of time.
I hear people ask how can you get work done in linux?
I went back to my journal and looked at my entry for yesterday.
As I have stated before it depends completely on the kind of work you do. If your office is MS centered and your work is centered around communicating with people using MS products then you best bet is Windows. If your work involves using specialized apps with no serious linux alternatives then I hope you like using Windows because that is what you need.
However, as another person stated, the real key for linux adoption is to continue to make headway onto corporate desktops. People use at home what they are used to at work for the most part with some small exception from some Mac fans I know.
Where does linux make inroads into the desktop world in corporations? They make inroads for those people already using a type of unix every day. The use of linux for those individuals can be a real bonus. You eliminate Windows and Office licenses but you get many other bonuses. You also eliminate the need in many cases to have unix workstations for individuals. You eliminate the overhead of keeping around Exceed licenses. If this was not a real and profitable niche market then companies that unix/nt integration products like Exceed or companies making unix workstations would be another market quick or they would be gone but they are not. There is a reason for this.
My company has recently moved the unix programmers, system administrators, network admins and oracle dbas over to linux. They like it a lot because they like unix. They have all the tools on the desktop they are used to on the server (no cygwin and other products are not suitable replacements for unix-like workstation not at all). They are also more flexible than Joe User to using alternative software to get the Office app stuff done since they do NOT use that software as much as say Lyn the Project Manager.
Lets take the example of my day yesterday:
So, I am going to describe my day.
I come in and login to my linux box. I fire up Evolution as my mail client and log in to aim through the gaim client. I start listening to this old postpunk 80’s band off this CD I have when I get a call from the Integration manager for one of the projects my division is responsible for. The veritas rep finally called him back about this disk error we were getting in production. He forwards me the email and I look at it through evolution. Veritas wants us to apply two patches to our Solaris system — one for the veritas file system and another for the volume manager.
He put the patches onto the secure Support Engineering share on the nas (network area storage ) server. I mount this puppy through LinNeighborhood. I open up the archives with File Roller. I drag the READMEs to my desktop and read them with Abiword which until it gets table support and better footnoting gets used on my box like a glorified WordPad.
The notes mention another patch for the Storage Manager. So I start hitting up the Integration Manager on aim telling him about this. He asks me about this dependency matrix I did for the Solaris 8 upgrade proposal we did a couple of months ago. This system is still all Solaris 7. I bring the Excel spreadsheet up in Gnumeric where I put together and print it out to the HP Color Laser Jet 8500 through CUPS because I haven’t testing out printing to it since the printer IP move to a secure subnet.
Anyway, we decide to get that patch too even though Veritas did not mention it. So I find the patch on the Veritas website cruising around with Galeon2. I download that patch and pull out the README with File Roller and then highlight them all and send them through pprint which is a nautilus script that processes the file through enscript and then sends it to the printer.
I print out all this stuff. The Integrations guy and I talk over some simple instructions I type out in Abiword and then print it off.
Then I highlight the files and use another nautilus script to SCP the files to the test server.
The Integrations guy and I go over to the test server, bring it down in single-user mode, apply the patches, and restart the server.
We make some notes and then I go back to my desk. The Integration manager is looking over HSM the Storage Migrator. He hits me up on aim (I am using gaim for this) and wants me to run an incremental backup to test this after the File System, Volume Manager, and Storage Administrator upgrade. So, I fire up a terminal and ssh to the test server I su over to root and run the Netbackup X client there which pops up on my desktop as a remote app and I run the incremental.
Then I take the notes we jotted down and open up the upgrade template from the Documentation share (share opened with LinNeighborhood) and open the doc in OpenOffice. I start working on that.
Am I writing this to show the superiority of linux. Hell no. You can do most of the stuff I listed one way or another in Windows. No prob. However, it ticks me off when people say you can’t get real work done in linux.
I am a unix system administrator and a software configuration manager. Duh. I like working off of linux better than windows because that is what I am used to and like better.
“In all cases, if X crash, you could always kill it with a remote connection. It’s much faster than reboot. Never the less, X crash less often than windows…
How many normal desktop users would be able to remotely connect to their computer and kill X? Personally I’ve found X a hell of a lot less stable than Windows 2000 and XP, unlike X I’ve hardly ever had them crash.
After I installed Nvidia drivers in Mandrake 8, X started crashing a couple of times a day. Setting up a dual headed display in Redhat 7.2 made X crash constantly, IIRC it was a problem with Xinerama. Before you ask, yes I did RTFM to make sure I was compiling the software and editing the config files correctly.
Even on a system that’s usually stable, I’ve had a lot of X crashes when trying to get games and bug ridden multimedia apps working. When running equally bad apps in Windows I’ve had no trouble killing them when they crash and they don’t bring down the GUI.
“You’ve taken a number of minor issues (e.g. mediocre DnD and clipboard support), exaggerated the problems”
One person’s “minor issue” is another person’s major annoyance. Some of the complaints Linux fans have about Windows seem like inconsequential nitpicking to me, but that doesn’t mean that they aren’t valid. When I’m working on a project, interruptions caused by UI issues waste my time and cause frustration. That can make a big difference to how much I enjoy working on the computer, which is a high priority to me.
Nvidia’s drivers are at the root of most of my instability in Windows XP. And that includes running Windows XP dual monitor.
It’s unfair to blame Linux for what is highly likely to be an Nvidia problem.
It used to be that Nvidia produced rock-solid drivers. That day was long ago. Some of Nvidia’s Windows drivers are so bad these days, they will bring your whole machine down and you will have to use the recovery console to fix your OS.
I believe it will take Linux a number of years to attain a good level of polish, mostly because the main authors of Linux are not experienced with making consumer applications. They’ve got to learn it along the way.
Microsoft will continue to be very competitive in the desktop space because they are moving their software development to India. With Microsoft’s cash position, they will be able to out-develop just about anyone, company or community.
At the same time, Windows isn’t free. Linux is growing all around the world because it is affordable and user-friendly. Not in the UI polish sense, but in the licensing sense.
By the end of the year, I will have moved all my main work to Linux. With Microsoft’s DRM focus and anti-human being corporate culture, Windows has become something I cannot afford to risk using.
–ms
People deal with choice in everything else. Cars, books, what clothes to wear today, microwave ovens, radio stations… the list is endless.
It doesn’t cause them any problems with that. So just because choice is something *new* to computers, is not an argument for not having it! That’s soooo stupid.
The problem with the computer analogy is that it points directly to the fact that Linux is NOT ready for the common man.
People choose a car and expect it to work; they purchase a microwave oven and expect it to work; they select a book and expect to be able to read it. They make these comparisons and purchases with the expectation that they will work. Computers purchased with Windows OS and application software pre-installed work. Until Linux achieves the same level of transparency, it will remain a second rate hobby OS as far as the desktop is concerned.
Linux has made significant progress in the server market and will probably continue to do so. But Linux will not succeed in the personal-desktop home computer market to any large degree as long as applications require configuration, tweaking, re-compiling, or anything more involved that simple installation, and it works.
It is too slow for any use that I could see. I might as well get an 8086 and watch it go slow.
Hmm… Funny that I read this right now, 30 seconds after replying on the linux forum on a guy who is trying to find screenwriting software for Linux
Actually, I believe there is screenwriting software for Linux. I can’t remember off hand what it is called, but I know some exists. It seems I found it in either Debian’s apt archive, or FreeBSD’s ports tree. I’ll look for it and get back with you.
Sure, it can do 80% of what most people want to do with a computer. But for that 20% left, where people have specific needs and Linux is not able to fullfil those, these people are always returning back to Windows (e.g. Quicken, 3d games etc etc). Sure, geeks will stay with Linux, but normal people (large majority) won’t.
I have exactly the opposite problem. I use Windows because I write .NET programs at work, but other than that, I can’t wait to get back to Linux or BSD so I can get some real stuff done.
Linux gains a lot of momentum lately, but we don’t see much “people’s software” getting ported. Mostly development and server stuff, but not people’s software.
I think once more and more “people” are using Linux, you will see a shift in the focus of the OSS community and these kinds of applications will begin to appear. I could be wrong though. It’s happened before.
But would those CTOs, CFOs and CEOs even listen to some computer expert talk about Linux when he is wearing a t-shirt, jeans and doesn’t have his long hair combed?
Its all about money. They’ll listen when they are finally told they won’t be given any more money. If people stop buying their products and everyone flocks to Linux, then maybe those CFOs and CEOs will reconsider. But until that happens, while there is still money to be made with Windows, you can bet they’ll ignore that weird Linux admin that keeps their website running 99.99999% of the time.
Perhaps investors should demand his presence be on the board.
How many normal desktop users would be able to remotely connect to their computer and kill X?
Nearly anybody who doesn’t suffer with a learning disability could do it if they were shown how. It really isn’t that hard. I think people used to do much more difficult tasks back when DOS was the common desktop OS. I don’t think they’ve become too dumb during the last 10 years.
Personally I’ve found X a hell of a lot less stable than Windows 2000 and XP, unlike X I’ve hardly ever had them crash.
Hmmm, that’s the exact opposite of my experience. I have only had X crash on me due to either problems with my hardware (a dual Athlon MP machine also causes it – at least both of mine do, but only under Linux. BSD is fine.) or nVidia’s drivers.
After I installed Nvidia drivers in Mandrake 8, X started crashing a couple of times a day.
Well, there you go. Once again nVidia is responsible.
When running equally bad apps in Windows I’ve had no trouble killing them when they crash and they don’t bring down the GUI.
I envy you. My Windows XP machine’s GUI would die fairly often. Windows 2000 has been quite stable for me though.
One person’s “minor issue” is another person’s major annoyance. Some of the complaints Linux fans have about Windows seem like inconsequential nitpicking to me, but that doesn’t mean that they aren’t valid. When I’m working on a project, interruptions caused by UI issues waste my time and cause frustration. That can make a big difference to how much I enjoy working on the computer, which is a high priority to me.
I completely agree with you on this point.
i would like to start with the fact tha for a tool (like an os) is not “always” good, as you can’t do everything with a screwdriver, you can’t do everything with an os. I ill never run anyithing but unix on a server (or os400 on my As400
) because windows isn’t meant for the server and even if now it has a good uptime (i have a webserver with windows2000 that is running for 2 months right now) it fails miserbiliy when it comes to ineroperability with the worldo outside microsoft, with easy of management (i manage my linux server on the train with my PDA and a cellphone thanks to ssh, with windows i have to use terminal server, with GSM…hmmm) just today i had to run some process remotely on one of my windows server, well maybe i’m just disinformed, but a search on google didn’t help to find a quick way like rsh (or ssh) is, so i just used a ported version of rshd, but i would have liked to use “native” stuff…
And now about business…
Linux business works in a different way, you don’t have a company to sue for the buggy software, you have a company to sue for bad implementation, shift your point of view, you ask a company: “i need A – B – C”, do you really think a CEO cares about the software used to reach the target? the only care about minimizing cost and maximizing profit, so you have to think that company X has to be sued not for bad CRM software, but for bad total system implementation, and as a company you have the choice to go your way, either mix OSS and proprietary, you have the responsability to test the reliability of the software YOU propose, you are not a dumb reseller! The author of the software should never be yeld responsible for a software failure, the same way an hammer-maker can’t be sued if i break someone’s head with his hammer, you have the tools, you decide what tools use and how to use them, that’s it.
I know tha in the USA nobody wants to be responsable of their actions, just look at the president…
You know.. the sheer amount of ignorance displayed by respondants to the survey was amazing. What amazes me even more is the way in which many respondants here repeat THE EXACT SAME MISTAKES. Particularly Eugenia. You post flame-bait every time and I cringe when I see something written by you.
Who says you can’t play 3d games or run Quicken? I’ve run quicken under WINE, and I’ve played 3d games both under WINE/WineX (recently, Sacrifice) and natively. More to tbe point Gnucash is a nice little financial app that imports .qif files. Are you trying to say that Linux needs complete foolproof binary compatibility with a series of operating systems whose architecture differs radically from Linux before it can be taken seriously? That’s clearly absurd.
I could spend forever responding to all the misrepresentation spewed in response to this article but ultimately I realise it’s futile. How about this: let’s all try to be more informed, learn more about the other camp and research your comments a little. In the end, no matter what you say about your platform of choice, if you make misrepresentations or state opionions as facts you only damage your own reputation and that of the platform you are trying to defend. This applies equally to all sides…
How many normal desktop users would be able to remotely connect to their computer and kill X?
Nearly anybody who doesn’t suffer with a learning disability could do it if they were shown how. It really isn’t that hard. I think people used to do much more difficult tasks back when DOS was the common desktop OS. I don’t think they’ve become too dumb during the last 10 years.
Well then. Please tell me how to login to my machine and kill X after a lockup. Screen, mouse and keyboard are all dead (quite common for me couple of years ago when I used Linux almost for everything).
A common misconception I had was that your “average user” has the same capabilities as a regular computer user. This is not the case.
My mother, bless her heart, had to be shown how to attach a file no less than 6 or 7 times before it stuck. And that’s using Yahoo! Mail, something totally independent of OS. Aside from criticizing Yahoo! Mail, the point is that she is not a stupid person just not computer savvy. And unfortunately the majority of people are the same way. They either a) can’t learn computers (just as I can’t draw no matter how hard I try, some people just don’t have the ability to learn how to use computers) or b) don’t want to learn.
So the arguement of “Oh well, it’s really simple, press Ctrl-C-X then access the terminal, login using your user name/password then type ‘grep <fileName> | apt-find | whatever’, geez it’s so simple, how can anyone NOT be able to do this?” doesn’t work. The average person cannot and will not be able to do that on a daily basis or even worse, sporadically where they have time to forget what they did the previous time.
Command Lines are antiquated (IMHO) but much worse impossible to use without much training. Now the first thing a Linux user will say is, “We have KDE/Gnome/WindowManager/etc.” and that’s fine. Hopefully the box you buy for your wife/cousin/brother/etc. comes fully configured since they’re not going to be able to configure it any easier than Windows.
To make a short story long, what holds Linux back from the desktop market is the lack of what I’d deem a “Plug and Play” nature (not to be confused with “Plug and Pray” hardware recognition). Windows has less functionality because with the average Joe, less is more.
BTW, let’s not even begin to think about having your grandmother Eunice rebuild her kernel because she wants to send pictures of the shawl she knitted because her version of Linux doesn’t properly support DUN or GIMP or whatever.
Eugenia, I don’t think you reaize that wine comes on the Mandrake CDs… It installed well, no configuration needed. (Except wine didn’t immediately recognise my CD drive, but that is an easy fix).
Anyway, I just played a round of Unreal Tournament (For Windows of course) over the internet thanks to the Mandrake RPMS for wine.
But I do see your point, it doesn’t run some important programs out of the box (Office, Photoshop) Hopefully as time progresses we’ll either get
A) A better wine implimentation of the win32 API
B) Ports from some big name companies (Macromedia & Adobe esp.)
or c)Open source programs for linux which are better (And interchangable) with their win 32 counterparts
Right now Linux is a pretty good platform for servers, and programmer workstations. It’s an excellent platform for hobbiests and wannabe programmers. Some distributions are pretty good for Joe user. It’s fair to middling poor on multimedia and artist-type stuff. It’s poor for gamers, but, ironically, not bad at all for game developers.
Personally I’d like to see continuing development for the gamer type user. They’re more demanding than joe user but they don’t mind tweaking as long as they can be assured of a system that’ll be rock solid and fast when they’re done. If hardware support gets up there, and there are some great games made for it, I can see Linux making serious inroads in that small but influencial area of the computer marketplace.
So the arguement of “Oh well, it’s really simple, press Ctrl-C-X then access the terminal, login using your user name/password then type ‘grep <fileName> | apt-find | whatever’, geez it’s so simple, how can anyone NOT be able to do this?” doesn’t work. The average person cannot and will not be able to do that on a daily basis or even worse, sporadically where they have time to forget what they did the previous time.
Then it sure is lucky that they dont have to do this, or even know that there is such a thing as a command prompt. This argument is moot, all MODERN linux distributions will let you administrate your system (including install software) from the GUI.
Command Lines are antiquated (IMHO) but much worse impossible to use without much training
This is very true. I will however claim that once you invest the time and get familiar with the CLI, you can do certain tasks MUCH faster than you could in a GUI. (unless you end up finding GUI tools that are just as “obscure” as using the CLI)
To make a short story long, what holds Linux back from the desktop market is the lack of what I’d deem a “Plug and Play” nature (not to be confused with “Plug and Pray” hardware recognition). Windows has less functionality because with the average Joe, less is more.
I can install a linux distribution, and by the time the install is complete i can start working instantly as i have all the programs and tools that i need. This is NOT the case with windows. Windows is just the OS with a few bundled applications, while linux comes with many, and sometimes too many, applications.
But the too many applications issue is not a problem, as the “general” computer user doesnt install an OS by themselves, and they usually dont install software by themselves either. So if they have so much software that they get confused, well, then blame whoever set it up for them.
The following is not directed at Thomas, but to a lot of the posts.
There are so many posts here rambling about things that are NOT issues, but is caused by people not knowing linux well enough. I mean, look at silly statements like claiming you have to set file associations per application, that everything should be statically linked, that X is very slow and should be ditched, etcetcetc. Ironically i used to be one of those pro static linking and ditching X :-), but then over time i read a bunch of articles by people smarter than me who explaining why this is not a good idea, and i eventually had to give in and admit that they were right. (dont you hate when that happens?
But i unfortunately think it is a general trend that people tend to rant a lot about things they dont really understand. (i even have to admit that i used to do it, and probably still does in some instances
)
The only conclusion i can draw from the article is that both groups were totally ignorant concerning the other group, and both groups appears to either be morons, or quite young (judging from the language used and the silly comments). I really hope they arent administrating anything important.
For the person trying to find screenwriting software: Lyx http://www.lyx.org has a ‘Hollywood’ document class that typesets according to the required conventions for film-scripts. It may not be exactly what you’re looking for, but the end results do look pretty good.
I had a choice between HPUX and Linux, and I chose Linux. Sure, I am not a normal user, but it works well for me. I can do all of my work including coding, checking email, and writing documents – and all of the software works like it should without me having to tinker with it.
It is also painlessly easy to back up.
As far as using Windows, it takes so long to update and install the necessary software I need that it is more of a pain than anything. Plus, Windows systems seem to degrade after about a year of use unless the user really watches what they install/uninstall/upgrade. Windows software leaves too much crap mixed around the filesystem.
Linux feels like its about half way to me ditching windows altogether.
Just needs improvements in software management and file management. And a few new and improved apps.
Simplification is what its always been about. And one idea at a time, its getting there. Diversity of approach never bothered me; its healthy and I think, necessary, to have a lot of choice in this process of OS evolution.
I used the comparison with Mozilla in the header because I remember all the naysayers way back then, and all the bitching about slowness of development, and so forth. Like deja vu this is, really.
It occurs to me, though, that its a little ironic that I’m posting from Opera. 😉
Yes for some, no for others. That’s really the bottom line.
Why are they called stereotypes when such a type is limiting a description to ONE specific thing? I am a Windows user who attempted Linux on three major occasions (one being my super-duper-anti-Micro$oft phase that I grew out of) and I always come back. I have tried the last few Red Hat distributions and still have not found anything that I was looking for. I prefer IIS to Apache (even with the quirks), Photoshop/PaintShop to GIMP, TextPad to ANY text editor on Linux or Windows, and have you seen Beyond Compare? I like Windows Update, I hate IE but I think it sucks less than Mozilla, and Outlook is a piece of crap so I use PINE on my friend’s Linux server instead. It’s funny how the typical zealot speaks of Windows users being basically ignorant sheep, when they are the ones succumbing to an angry mob mentality. When will “choice” also reflect the choice to choose Windows in their minds?
“This argument is moot, all MODERN linux distributions will let you administrate your system (including install software) from the GUI.”
Linux graphical tools are getting better, but IME it’s still pretty much impossible to use Linux without ever encountering the CLI. Killing crashed apps when xkill doesn’t work is the most common reason for me to use the CLI, but I’ve also had to use it for a lot of other tasks. For example installing and configuring drivers still tends to be done using the command line and config files.
Also I often find that instructions which aren’t written by the creator of a distribution will only tell users how to do tasks with the CLI. Obviously different distributions have different graphical tools while everyone has access to the command line tools. Personally I always follow instructions closely, otherwise when something goes wrong and I ask for help I’ll just be told I should have RTFM.
Being the good-natured soul that I am, I can only assume that this is some kind of biting satire on the entrenched attitudes of some Windows users, because it’s quite good if it is. Next time give us a little bit more of a warning though, eh? Some people might misinterpret you and foam right back at you.
Touche, sir! So instead of actually refuting *any* of my points, you insult me! What a mature attitude to take.
Well, you’re entitled to your opinions, but I hope you never ask anyone to qualify what specifically the statement “It just works” means when someone talks about Windows or OS X, because I did that and you seem to have taken offense to it. Apparently you don’t care if your OS “just works” or not and you’re willing to waste your time pounding square pegs through round holes…
Whether or not you can use Linux full time depends on the apps and/or the features you need/want.
Can the ‘average user’ use Linux full-time? It depends on the apps and/orthe features they need/want.
Take IM programs for instance – if you want to chat with your friends, then yes. If you want to use hte ‘IMviroment’ features, then no.
It all depends.
First of all, I’d like to point out that most of the posts on here are from Microsoft zealots who seem to be more vocal and rabid than your average Linux zealot. I think this is indicative of a more general problem here in America. Most of us like to do things our way just because that’s the way we do it.
I know the main reason I use Linux is because the first thing I ever needed to do on a computer was write a C program and compile it. I used a Sun workstation. When it came time for me to buy my own computer, it seemed pointless to get one with out a Unix-like command line and a compiler already installed. Not only did I get that, but also an office suite and Octave (the open source verion of Matlab, which IS avaliable for Linux). The only thing I really needed that I had to install was Mathematica, but that was just running an install script and very quick.
So for me, getting Windows into a suitable condition to get things accomplished would have taken longer, since I’d have to intall more.
The other reason I went with Linux was a moral reason. Microsoft is not a nice company. Lack of competition is not good for technological advancement. Microsoft zealots tend to ignore this. Not only do they want to use only what they’re used to (as I said, I’m guilty of this too), but they want to ignore the consequences of their choice. This problem is common to most Amercians. Just look at the number of SUVs on the road.
So while Linux and Windows are better suited to different tasks, it seems to me if you want to do something that could be done on either, why don’t you take a moral stand and choose Linux? And for the people who say “Linux will never be able to X”, that may or may not be true, but neither you nor I know for sure.
As has been reported many times, Linus said that Linux will be ready for the desktop in 2006. I don’t understand what he meant by it – did he mean the kernel will be ready? Obviously, the kernel is his area of competence, but maybe he meant other things…
If he meant IN GENERAL, then that’s interesting – that means some of the problems plaguing Linux now, such as installation standardization etc. will be solved by 2006 in his opinion. Interesting.
Want Linux to compete for my desktops?
No
Command Lines are antiquated (IMHO) but much worse impossible to use without much training.
I must say that while the command line isn’t for everyone, it is still an essential tool. Microsoft has been trying for a long time to kill off CLI in Windows, and you know what? They have finally given up. They introducing a shell-like scripting system to Windows because they are seeing that for administrators and other technically savvy people the command line is irreplaceable.
I type fast. I think fast. Click through various directories and menus is slow, and completely unsuitable for doing editing config files, producing small text files, etc. This can all be done much faster by command line. When I work faster I get DONE with work faster and that gives me more time to play. I don’t think we will see the CLI disappear from either Windows or Linux any time soon.
I don’t think anyone would argue that the command line should be removed, obviously it can be very useful. But it should be possible to do almost every task in the GUI, so that the user doesn’t have to learn the CLI if they don’t want to. NeXTSTEP, Mac OS, Windows, BeOS etc. all manage to hide the command line quite well, but at the moment it’s nearly impossible to use Linux without learning the CLI.
Having no to sue in the Linux World is sadly misguided.
This particular piece of Fud/misinformation rests on the
patently false notion that you can sue MS.
Name one company that ever sued MS because of problems
their software caused: virus, and worms,crashes,slow bug fixes, whatever. And if they did sue, did they win?
The EULA says basically “Liability? No.”
The same dodging of accountablility is seen in support calls to MS, typically shaggy dog tales that after endless holds,transfers and callbacks end with your problem being declared as feature not a bug, or because of something you did.
I would say that your ability to sue it the same for both: You might be able to sue your support vendor depending on what kind of contract they offer.
In short, there is nothing like an imaginary parachute
as grist for FUD.
The Eula says they accept no liability for their product.
I think we all know that most people in offices around the world not only aren’t allowed to maintain thier pcs, but don’t know how.
If you’re willing to run a really simple desktop, with the absolute minimum of software, (maybe in something like windowmaker or the next version of blackbox) and are happy not to spend your entire life patching your system or upgrading Mozilla, there is no good reason why you shouldn’t start deploying Linux in the workplace tommorow. For most organisations doing nothing and locking out the user is the ideal option! I think that battle is already won, but the next one is already lost.
Although Linux has (mostly) more and better software than I will ever need, I think innovation comes through competition and some form of financial motivation. I was looking at somebody making Pagestream (remember that?) for Linux, saying that it was a double edged sword – massive interest, but people just give everything away! Even Corel has withdrawn Draw for Linux, and heaven knows they never sell anything at full price, as have Deneba – and these are all people who have actually done the work! I think the market will split into on the one hand commodity systems, dominated entirely by Linux and which just offers plain vanilla computing, and boutique systems like apple,xp and playstation whos sales are driven by the availability of commercial software and hardware accessories and just general prettiness.
Take IM programs for instance – if you want to chat with your friends, then yes. If you want to use hte ‘IMviroment’ features, then no.
Most of those IMvironment features are included in the Linux AOL client. I use gaim because its a multi-protocol messenger and I don’t use some of the features. It is possible the AOL Aim linux version does not some of the latest and greatest features but it has file sending and a number of other options you have mentioned in the past.
There are better examples like a good Visio replacement and the reverse engineering of that file format. I think oGalaxyo mentioned a couple of programs in a post he did on another topic and you can always mention Photoshop. Gimp is good but there are folks that will take nothing less than the Adobe big dog.
Most of those IMvironment features are included in the Linux AOL client.
Actually, I was referring to Yahoo and it’s IMViroments. I have not checked out the Linux version of AIM.
There are better examples like a good Visio replacement and the reverse engineering of that file format.
I use the IMViroments thing because it is something that the average user could probably more identify with. Everytime I mention Photoshop or the audio apps I use, I always get responses like “Oh, those are specialty apps. How many people actually use those anyway?”
It also draws attention to those ‘little things’ missing in Linux that most hardcore geeks don’t even think about, but Joe User holds near and dearl.
Most of the Linux faithful would say that such things like the IMViroments or the voice/video chat feature(s) are not really necessary and are worth giving up in order to use a free and open OS and not have to bow down to ‘Father William’. Problem is, Joe User doesn’t give two shits about any of that, as he’s already been made a slave to The Corporation a long time ago (like since birth), so the whole spill about ‘M$’ just goes in one ear and out the other. This is exactly the reason why I say if you want a free and open OS dominating the desktop, you gotta do something about Corporate America first.
Point well taken on Yahoo and the video/voice chat features.
I agree completely about the Corporate desktop. Especially since in a very wordy extended post I made the case that linux can make inroads into corporate america’s IT structure for those IT people currently doing the majority of their work in a Unix environment.
I am going through this right now. I know you might say its a pretty thin niche but its one that has kept many smaller companies like Exceed in business and made bigger companies like Sun plenty of money selling unix workstations. For the IT people doing 90% of their work in Unix, linux makes sense for saving money on a number of fronts and provides linux a way into the corporate environment.
People say that this is not happening much but this is the second company I have worked with making the move. At my last place it was voluntary and at this place for the software engineers, system engineers, unix testers, network admins and dbas it is mandatory.
HHmmm, from reading this I see a common thread running through the windows crowd: they want someone to blame if something goes wrong. Don’t want to take responsibility. Anybody else notice this? (I’m too lazy to read through all the comments to see if someone else already posted this….)
I’ve tried to make this point before: it’s not the fault of Linux that apps are hard to install. They’re only easy to install under Windows because no Windows developer would dare distribute an app without an install program. Please note the words “install program”; there are tools to do this for you, but basically a program has to be written to put the app in your folder of choice, look for required DLL’s and install them if they’re missing or outdated, and update the registry and the start menu. This is not a simple process, it just looks simple to the user after everything’s said and done. Linux app developers need to do something similar. They should either provide an install program like Mozilla’s or better, or a disclaimer saying that if you want to install this, you’re on your own.
That said, I have SuSE 8.0 Professional, and just about every app I’ve wanted (including wine) has been on one of the CD’s. Installing from the CD is strictly point-and-click and it works. Also, the performance is good now that I ditched KDE in favor of Windowmaker.
James, (mostly) nicely said.
And what about when he trolled, was that nicely said? Do you support trolls now Eugenia if they partway convey your message?
5) Ditch Xfree86. If people wanted guaranteed high latency they’d probably ask for it. Notice that Linux has a tiny market-share, approximately commensurate with the percentage of people who can stand crappy GUI response times on a regular basis. This correlation is hardly accidental… also notice that whenever Xfree crashes, due to a rogue program or whatever, the shoddy Linux reputation tarnishes just a little bit more for each new user. Sure, the OS itself might not crash, but the desktop just vanished. What’s the difference to a user? NONE. Think about it.
I love this one, the mysterious X latency issue. Do you ever hear about this on any Linux Forum? No thats because the issue doesn’t exist, it is made up by people who want an example of how X is slow.
Made up not true. If you fill the forum with lies there will be nothing but useless posts.
I have been using computers since the 8bitters so I have learned to make adjustments. This does make Linux easier for me. Over the years, I have learned that most people don’t enjoy changes on their computer. I am not totally sure why that is, though I have some ideas, so I just accept the truth of it and move on.
My first experience with Linux was with Redhat 5.2. It was impressive at the time, but still very crude compared to win32 systems. You had to know something in order to get full use of it. A few things struck me though.
Linux has a lot of potential at a very low cost.
Linux is composed of Open Code. You *can* know every last thing the machine is doing for you.
Learning to use Linux means you can get basic computing done forever without having to worry about anything.
Learning these things was very different from the commercial UNIXes and NT and they made me think hard about what we should be paying for and what we should not.
I did not use that early RedHat long though. Too many things took too much time, so I waited a while to let the whole thing gestate a little. Spent some time tinkering with the machine I had to keep my foot in the door.
Recently I tried Mandrake 8.2 and it was so very much improved, yet the core value proposition was the same!
This confirmed a core idea of mine in spades. None of us should be forced to continue paying for the ability to perform basic computing tasks. Why should we? The research is done, why not pay for other things where commercial development still provides a lot of value?
As an example, what does Office 2000 / XP really do for you that Office 97 does not? Are those things worth the price?
There is a lot of quibbling in this thread about little things that distract from the hard questions about Linux desktops.
Those questions are questions of value.
Consider the cost of something like Photo Shop, or the Corel suite. For many of us at home, the price of these is a little high. What if you got your computer and could browse, send e-mail, write documents, spreadsheets, burn cds, watch DVDs, play a bunch of games, compose web pages, chat with friends, rip mix burn and do other things right out of the box? What if that did not cost but a small amount over the price of the computer itself?
I know XP will do these things, but the cost is part of your machine. Try building your own, and buying the XP and Office. Now do the math on a few machines.
Hmmm…
If you could save those dollars would you be more inclined to step up and get some real applications? I sure would.
Getting more for less is always good. It’s also the name of the game for just about everything else. Computers are no different.
As more people figure this out, the market will grow. When it hits critical mass (and it will because there are too many people trying to make it happen for things to fail now), commercial software companies will either find their products to be in demand because they are actually new enough to be paid for, or they will not.
Anyone using Linux will benefit from all of that in a big way, because they will see increasing application support combined with very low system costs. They might just be better customers in the longer run because they just might be able to afford that new drawing program or financial program. It will be an easier sell.
Bundles might change as well. The smarter ones will configure Linux machines with pre-bundled software to add value to the base computer. They can sell the basic computer, the media computer, college computer, financial computer. They will all be the same computer!
The profit from these bundles will go directly to the seller of the machine and the creators of the software.
Doing this stuff will be worth it because the base computing configuration, which EVERYONE NEEDS, will be at the lowest cost possible.
Why pay one company, who has an awful lot of mouths to feed, for this, when we don’t have to?
Right now, we are seeing the beginning. Linux desktops are useable for lots of people today. Tomarrow, we will see more become able to step on board.
What can Linux do for you today? It’s a valid question that could save you quite a bit of money.
Companies asking this question will find today, that they can use Linux in many places in their enterprise, but not all of them. The smarter ones will do just that and save a little money. Next year they will ask again and again each time looking to save where they can.
They will take that money and use it to build their business instead of Microsofts.
This is the same process that got win32 to the point where it is today! It’s called disruptive technology. It changes things generally for the better.
Many of these same discussions happened when NT was starting to displace high-end UNIX stations, yet it still happened. Today the UNIX desktop user is rare by percentage. The same will slowly happen to win32 users, though I don’t see the percentages getting as low as they did for UNIX because the cost differences are smaller.
Personally, I consider Linux fine for many home users. SOHO users will find the desktop lacking, but might get good use out of a server. Every last one of them should be looking. The smaller the enterprise, the larger the costs I am talking about are with respect to the profit.
All of the hard work to create a good desktop platform is almost finished. Much of the work needed to bring good basic computing needs to this desktop is also almost done. Combine this with free development tools and Linux looks bright to me.
Companies are already considering their options. For home users there is another problem that affects their perception of Linux and that is applications. Sure there are many more applications for win32 than there are for Linux, but are all those home users actually paying for them?
My experience says they are not by and large. This lowers the value that Linux brings to the table because the real cost of commercial software is hidden in piracy and bundled with your computer.
For those who say Linux might not be the way to go, take a hard look at the software you are using and what you actually paid (or should have paid) for it.
Is that amount really worth what you are getting when you know you can get a lot of it for free or very low cost?
Are all those features really needed to get the job done?
I did this and was surprised at what I found out how much the software would have really cost. It just happens. First one application, then another and another. Do you really need them all? Would you have gotten them in the first place?
I am not saying everyone is a pirate, just asking people to look at what they say they need.
Today, Linux works for me. Most of the day to day things get done on the Mandrake machine just fine. My other win32 machine has only software that I need for work (that they paid for) or software/games that I have paid for that I either cannot yet run under Linux, or don’t care enough about to bother.
I ditched the rest. Guess what? After a month or so, things were just fine.
Now before buying anything else, I take a look around. Can I do it with Linux? Can I run it under Linux?
More and more the answer is yes. And each yes will save me money and add to the freedom I have to choose how my computing environment works for me.
So does Linux make a good desktop yet? For me it is getting there very nicely.
When my mom can use Linux without compiling the kernel to get that new hardware working, then its usuable.
Where does this crap come from?
I’ve been using Linux for over a year now (since Mandrake 8 and now RedHat 8) on 2 machines. I’m someone who really likes to play around with my hardware and have replaced motherboards, graphics cards, processesors and I have NEVER had to compile the Kernal – I wouldn’t have the first clue how.
All I can tell you is I replaced my processesor, graphics card and motherboard at once on my dual boot RH8/Win2K and RH8 came up with about three or four screens prior to boot saying – “Found new hardware do you wish to install it?” and “Can no longer see x do you wish to remove it?” One minute later – done.
W2K was a different story – after about 1 hour and a half of “found new hardware” (1 PCI Bridge etc. at a time) and searching for drivers (there the same place the last ones were you stupid thing) and then rebooting my machine W2K ran like an absolute dog. So I had to wipe it. (Un)fortunalety W2K doesn’t like dual boots so it never went back on.
So when people talk about poor hardware support in Linux and compiling kernals you can see why I’m a little more than confused.