“A federal judge’s order that would force Microsoft Corp. to include Sun Microsystems Inc.’s programming language in the latest version of Windows is necessary to prevent the language from becoming extinct, Sun argued in a court filing. The company filed its response Tuesday to Microsoft’s appeal of the order. Sun said its Java programming language is damaged each day the injunction is not imposed because the market tilts toward Microsoft’s .NET framework.” Read the reports here and here. Good to see Sun being realistic regarding the status of and race between Java and .NET’s framework.
Sun Says Java Will Become Extinct if MS Won’t Include it in Windows
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It won’t become extinct, too many people and companies around the world use it.
However, it will start to dwindle in popularity significantly since Joe Schmoe won’t be wanting to manually installing it.
Actually I played with Mono, GTK#, Glade# and C# a bit, and even now I can say that for Linux it’s the easiest and fastest way to write applications. I was pretty impressed.
On Windows I’ll stick to C++/MFC for a while. 😉
Java will have it’s share of the market. No doubt about that. Smalltalk and Eiffel are still around, too, and make a pretty penny for their companies.
The .NET hype seems a lot like the Java Hype years ago. And the C++ hype even before that. Oh, and there has been a Pascal and a Modula-2 hype, too. Though that was ages ago and lacking the Internet in it’s current form the hypes were a lot more bearable. 😉
Currently, you have to install the .NET-Framework manually, too.
Sun argued that Microsoft has not shown solid reasons why it would take longer than 120 days to ship the JRE (Java Runtime Environment) with Windows. Microsoft claimed it would take an enormous amount of engineering resources to include Java
Hello, MS, Java ships with an installer. Popup a dialog that says “Install JVM (Y/N)?” ==> run Sun’s installer.
as for affecting the quality of Microsoft software, think of all the bad press you can give Sun when the JRE blue screens your unstable operating system (Yes, I mean XP, which is a downgrade from 2K)
Personally I hope any ruling makes MS update the JRE when 1.4.2, 1.5 are released. Otherwise, same old yesterdays JVM.
>It won’t become extinct, too many people and companies
>around the world use it.
Not to mention unversities…
>However, it will start to dwindle in popularity
>significantly since Joe Schmoe won’t be wanting
>to manually installing it.
It already has and is. Still, I think the demise of Java is a bit exagerated. COBOL isn’t really as widely used as it used to, but does that mean it’s extinct? Hardly, there’s still loads of system running COBOL SW neding maintenance.
It’s a question of semantics. If “being extinct” means “not being the No.1 language of choise” than many languages are extinct. It would be closer to the truth to say that M$ once again use their 3E tactics to keep Java away from the clients.
Besides, in a court of law you’re expected to pull rethorical stunts and twists. 😉
>The .NET hype seems a lot like the Java Hype years ago.
>And the C++ hype even before that. Oh, and there has been
>a Pascal and a Modula-2 hype, too. Though that was ages
>ago and lacking the Internet in it’s current form the
>hypes were a lot more bearable. 😉
Agreed., Leaving the hype stage seems to a natural part of evolving to a mature language/tool. 🙂
“It’s a question of semantics. If “being extinct” means “not being the No.1 language of choise” than many
languages are extinct.”
All except one, in fact.
Yes, per definition we’ve turned programming into Highlander.
“There can only be one” 🙂
Is that really the best argument that MS can make? I mean, it’s Windows for crying out loud!
I have a feeling, however, seeing as where this appeal is being heard, that MS will win. The fourth circuit is by far the most conservative, business-friendly court in the country. Oh well. I think in many respects Sun is barking up the wrong tree anyway. All they’d have to do is tell the sites that use Java to direct people to java.sun.com to download the jre. And, as has been pointed out here, you have to download the .net framework too. Should MS also be forced to bundle AIM and RealPlayer, too?
Well, this is the first time I knew that Microsoft is in the dominant (aka monopoly) situation of its server and PDA/embedded platforms….. LOL :-).
Maybe Trolltech should use this argument on why Microsoft must include Qt with Windows….
Besides, including Java in Windows wouldn’t guarentee Java’s success. Why? All (or most…) the developers currently using Java don’t find it hard for them to include the JRE with their product. So consumers really wouldn’t see the difference.
So would developers suddenly squel and start porting their apps to Java or writing their apps in Java? I doubt it, Visual Studio .NET is the dominant, even if it is not the best, IDE around. And without standard Java support (J# not counted), I really doubt much developers would develop for Java. What reason do they have to do that? Platform independance? I can just hear most developers say “So?”. The main market is Windows. If their market is divided between Windows and Mac OS or Linux, trust me, they would have already got a version available for them, or somehow not interested in them.
Should MS also be forced to bundle AIM and RealPlayer, too?
First the answer is no, why ? Let me explain, MS is forced to include SUN’s Java, cause it used to bundle a crippled version of Java and this bundling is the price MS has to pay for trying to cripple the java language, you see. Now maybe if MS would include a broken RA codec, which sounded like crap then maybe RA would have a case also, another example if MSN would have been supporting AIM for years, but would make sure every second message wouldnt arive and blame AIM for it, then they where hurting AIM, while maybe it was a MS mistake.
Pete: Hello, MS, Java ships with an installer. Popup a dialog that says “Install JVM (Y/N)?” ==> run Sun’s installer.
The court injunction says *bundle*. In other words, no y/n questions, no InstallerVISE stuff. Even if the courts don’t require a real bundle, Microsoft is better off installing it without user intervention for usability reasons.
Besides, most obviously, Microsoft prefers to ship SP2 with things it plans to ship with SP2 not just make a service pack just to include a competitor’s product. I’m quite sure that’s what they mean by “engineering resources”.
Pete: as for affecting the quality of Microsoft software, think of all the bad press you can give Sun when the JRE blue screens your unstable operating system (Yes, I mean XP, which is a downgrade from 2K)
When you have something crashing all the time on your system, people won’t point to the courts or to Sun but rather Microsoft. Who made Windows? Microsoft did, not Sun or the courts. Besides, I never once saw a BSOD on Windows XP, and I’m more harsher with it than Windows 2000. I however notice explorer.exe crashes way more times in XP than Windows 2000.
Most BSOD crashes can be linked back to rogue ultilities, hardware problems or driver problems.
Pete: Personally I hope any ruling makes MS update the JRE when 1.4.2, 1.5 are released. Otherwise, same old yesterdays JVM.
Did you read the injunction?
The guilty ones: C, C++, C# and Java.
Big disappointed with Java. Ditto with C#. Can’t companies come up with anything better than these?
What the press and the courts would come out if Sun was in Microsoft’s position…
RICHMOND, Va. – A federal judge’s order that would force Sun Microsystems Inc.’ to include Microsoft Corp.’s programming language in the latest version of Solaris is necessary to prevent the language from becoming extinct, Microsoft argued in a court filing.
The company filed its response Tuesday to Sun’s appeal of the order.
Sun said its .NET framework is damaged each day the injunction is not imposed because the market tilts toward Sun’s Java programming language. Microsoft accuses Sun of unlawfully distributing outdated .NET versions that are incompatible for Solaris users.
Microsoft is suing Sun for $1 billion, alleging the software giant engaged in “anticompetitive acts against the .NET platform and Microsoft with the purpose and effect of maintaining its monopoly over SPARC-compatible server operating environments,” according to Microsoft’s filing in the 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals.
A federal judge in Baltimore ordered Sun last week to include updated versions of .NET in Solaris 9 operating systems until the litigation is resolved.
Sun is appealing the injunction and has argued that Microsoft faces no “imminent irreparable harm” that should require Sun to help a competitor. -AP
SAN FRANCISCO — Microsoft made a filing to a federal appeals court on Tuesday laying out its objections to Sun’s request for more time to include .NET Framework technology in Solaris operating environments.
Microsoft presented the U.S. Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals in Richmond, Virginia , with a 25-page document citing reasons that Sun should ship .NET Framework technology with Solaris as soon as possible. Earlier this month, a lower court gave Sun 120 days from Feb. 4 to begin including .NET Framework with Solaris. Sun subsequently appealed that decision, asking for more time, which led to the Tuesday response from Microsoft.
In the appeal, Sun had claimed that Microsoft did not face any “imminent irreparable harm” if Sun did not include .NET Framework in Solaris. Microsoft argued that the inclusion of .NET Framework with Solaris a time-sensitive issue and that further delays could be harmful to the company and its technology.
“(T)he district court explicitly found that Microsoft is threatened with irreparable harm and that its requested relief is urgently needed now,” Microsoft said in the filing.
The ongoing legal row between Microsoft and Sun over .NET Framework heated up last December when U.S. District Judge Frederick Motz ordered Sun to ship .NET Framework with Solaris.
Microsoft argued that Sun has not shown solid reasons why it would take longer than 120 days to ship the .NET CLI (.NET Common Language Interface) with Solaris. Sun claimed it would take an enormous amount of engineering resources to include .NET Framework and that the technology would adversely affect the quality of Sun’s software.
Microsoft’s .NET Framework technology was invented in the late-90s with the hopes that .NET programs could run on a variety of operating systems with little alteration to the underlying code. Sun has previously come up with its own technology, called Java that competes with .NET Framework.
Unless you are for God only knows what reason using Java’s solutions to access the underlying OS’s APIs (via JNI and RMI… which BTW wouldn’t make the app WORA anymore), if your app uses J2SE 1.1, it would work on Microsoft’s VM.
Besides, Microsoft broke a contract. Sun sued. Sun is on the winning side. Had they not made a settlement, they would have won. In other words, they are in the power situation when they and Microsoft discuss the settlement. Instead of keeping Microsoft to its contract, it broke the contract and forbid Microsoft to update its VM except for security issues.
In other words Sun expected Microsoft to continue bundling Java with Windows because it thought the language is too important to throw out the window. It never expected .NET.
I do think MS Should include Sun Java and I think that it will only enhance the usr experience. but I do think that Sun and Microsoft need to do this together and not get interference from the courts. As for Windows XP Bluescreens. I have never seen one and I put XP through some paces. I get explorer crashes but nothing to bring down the whole system.
What’s wrong with C# ? Detailed answer please…
I do think MS Should include Sun Java and I think that it will only enhance the usr experience.
Please explain on why it would enchance the user experience….
Ronald: “I want these extinct asap… The guilty ones: C, C++, C# and Java.
Big disappointed with Java. Ditto with C#. Can’t companies come up with anything better than these?”
KLAMATH: What’s wrong with C# ? Detailed answer please…
He just named four of the most popular programming languages in use today, including C which is the quintessential systems programming language.
He’s obviously a troll who probably favors one of the obscure OO languages, a functional language, or (*groan*) a scripting language. I’m a fan of Smalltalk and ML, but you certainly don’t see me calling for C/C++’s blood, in fact quite the opposite…
When it comes down to it, you just can’t beat C/C++. Java and C# both have their merits, but they’re popular because they’re both riding on top of an enormous hype engine. Most polls indicate that C++ is still the most popular applications programming language in use today, and C is obviously the most popular systems programming language.
It never expected .NET
Ah come on, how many times has MS taken another companies product and made their own? There are lots of cases.
Regards,
Marc
Ah come on, how many times has MS taken another companies product and made their own? There are lots of cases.
Unless if they bought the company (or the IP), never. They never made .NET over Java. .NET is very different than Java, although the similarities between C# and Java is countless. They have copied ideas before, but never taken their product and made their own on it.
Besides, that statement still doesn’t answer my statement that Sun didn’t expect .NET. Counting from its reactions, which is more of “suprised” than “haha, we guessed this would happen”, it took Sun some time before they started labeling it a free fix of heroin, .NOT, etc.
“In other words Sun expected Microsoft to continue bundling Java with Windows because it thought the language is too important to throw out the window. It never expected .NET.”
Come on! .NET wasn’t developed over night. Sun has known about Cool (the project name for C#) for years. They did know that MS had plans to replace their Java completly. I don’t buy that Sun was surprised.
From what I heard from rumours, Cool was initially suppose to be a Java-compatible language rewritten for performance reasons. Besides, Cool is C#, what about the rest of the .NET Framework? No, it wasn’t developed in a day, I’m quite sure Microsoft had it under wraps before Java even came to existance.
“What’s wrong with C# ? Detailed answer please… ”
There is nothing wrong with C# as a programming language. You can build software with it as like with most other programming languages. There is nothing wrong with having Microsoft selling a development environment.
But MS wants to annihilate Sun in gerneral and Java specifically completly. MS wants that people have only one choise when it comes to programming environments and the OS where those environments are running (profit maximization). And MS uses it’s monololy status to enforce this (which company won’t?). Many people think this is illegal. If it’s not illegal (as always a court has to decide this) there are still many people who think that it should be illegal.
You see, there are people who don’t think that this is a healthy market economy, but a perverted one, where one player has too much might and abuses this might to further his profits.
Please read “Stupid White Men” from Michael Moore. He explains (in a satirically way) why having less choises is a bad thing and leads to even more bad things.
😉
Bascule: Quick to assume and judge. You must come from the /. folks.
My point was that both Java and C# are not what is needed right now. The world needs an organization/company to push a cross-platform language that can’t be ‘bastardized’ by another like what they did with COBOL.
JAVA: Java is too complicated. Most applications done in Java are a riddled with bugs and cost a fortune to develop. It was conceived to caters to the C & C++ people. It’s too prone to errors and work is wasted coding instead of filling in the need of the client.
C#: While C# is just an answer to Java. It too is complex for business applications. In reality: it’s the Microsoft version of Java. Except it won’t reach as many platform as Java.
No wonder VB and Access are surviving pretty well. Java and C#, for business, are a waste of time and money. It’s disappointing that in over 30 years all they came up is these two to fill in the business needs.
While I am not a big fan of the Microsoft monopoly, trying to get Microsoft to include Java on Windows AGAIN is just foolish. If Sun hadn’t sued Microsoft in the first place regarding Microsoft’s COOL and USEFUL extensions to Java, then Java would have already been on over 100 MILLION Windows machines. Many Microsoft apps were going to be rewritten in Java, providing a giant base for Java.
Except Sun is a greedy short-sighted company that couldn’t live with Microsoft improving Java to make it work on the Microsoft platform.
Maybe Sun should fire the stupid people that sued Microsoft in the first place? Maybe Sun shouldn’t have been so stupid to think that 99.99999% Java running on hundreds of millions of machines was a bad thing.
Java is being outplaced and flanked by Microsoft. Because Microsoft is focusing on solving real business problems with .NET is a way that works better than Java. Sun is spending very little time fixing the problems in Java. Every big company I know of that works with Java is spending a fortune developing, testing, and supporting Java apps. There is ample opportunity for Sun to make tons of money by becoming a real Java player rather than a crazed Java dictator controlling the Java Community Process and ranting againt Microsoft all the time.
I have no sympathy for Sun on this matter. Sun Java should not be forced onto the Windows platform. Sun has shown it is unreliable and capricious and cannot be trusted to keep the best interests of the Windows users in mind.
–ms
But MS wants to annihilate Sun in gerneral and Java specifically completly.
And vice-versa.
MS wants that people have only one choise when it comes to programming environments and the OS where those environments are running (profit maximization).
You know this is a stupid allegation and impossible one for Microsoft to push through. If they were so afraid of language choices, they would have created their own and keep away from C and C++. And BASIC. And COBOL. The list goes on and on.
And MS uses it’s monololy status to enforce this (which company won’t?).
Among Microsoft’s products that happens to be monopolies are Windows, IE (part of Windows) and Office. All three don’t have the .NET Framework. And yet C# is growing in popularity. Hmm…
You see, there are people who don’t think that this is a healthy market economy, but a perverted one, where one player has too much might and abuses this might to further his profits.
The only thing unhealthy about the market is the competitors. Unlike other industries, well most of them, Microsoft dominated and kept its dominance because of shoddy competitors. They are one or more of the following
a) Having a business model that prevents them to secure a large market share (Apple)
b) Being run by geeks (Netscape, Be, Sun)
c) Practically little to no proper marketing – just “make the product, sell it, fill antitrust suit when fails”. (Be)
d) Short-sighted and not able to see who is their chief rival (Sun).
So frankly, cutting off Microsoft legs won’t make the market more healthier. Their competitors just have to change their ways. Software is a fast-paced relatively new industry. Give it some time, Microsoft would loose its powers.
Because I was just getting the hang of it.
Marc: Ah come on, how many times has MS taken another companies product and made their own? There are lots of cases.
rajan r: Unless if they bought the company (or the IP), never.
Does anyone remember Stacker? MS developed DoubleSpace but lost a court case because Stacker code was found in DoubleSpace. Microsoft then licensed the product from Stacker (which was nearing bankruptcy at this point with the need for their product eliminated, it was included in the operating system by Microsoft) and rechristened it DriveSpace.
At the time, it caused quite an outrage among the computer-savvy.
(source: http://www.jimlayman.com/computer-junk/Other/MS-Hall-Of-Innovation…. )
//think of all the bad press you can give Sun when the JRE blue screens your unstable operating system (Yes, I mean XP, which is a downgrade from 2K//
Okay, troll-boy, I’ll bite.
Funny, I’ve had the JRE installed on my XP Home machine for months. Not one blue screen, and I use it a lot, especially at http://www.shockwave.com
Post helpful things, or shut your Penguinista trap.
“Among Microsoft’s products that happens to be monopolies are Windows, IE (part of Windows) and Office. All three don’t have the .NET Framework. And yet C# is growing in popularity. Hmm… ”
But remember how IE become market leader. MS used it’s OS monopoly to push it. Remember what they did with Java. They shipped an incompatible Java with their OS thus hurting Sun and thus helping their .NET project. Also being a monopolist helps MS to earn more money. Part of that money goes into development and marketing of .NET. I still think that MS’ monopolies help them in pushing .NET and makes things easier for them. Monopolies are not healthy and are never good for the customer.
“So frankly, cutting off Microsoft legs won’t make the market more healthier. ”
No, because the people will be the same and do it again.
“Sun said its Java programming language is damaged each day the injunction is not imposed because the market tilts toward Microsoft’s .NET framework.”
When let the market decide what is the best.
Why on the Earth should MS include any piece of junk into it’s own product ? Not to mention license fees MS supposedly will pay to that poor little company. I just don’t get it. And I really do hate when anybody uses courts to achieve business goals. It’s f*ng wrong.
about as much as I miss my last bowel movement.
I’ll respond to a few posts here…
Someone said as long as you stick to the 1.1 api, anything will run on the MS VM.
The fact is that I often find myself having to create workarounds for the MS VM when I’m writting an applet.
Perhaps this is because not all the api changes in Java2 were marked, perhaps that’s becuase microsoft did a lousy job porting it.
At any time if you have more than about 40 threads running, you’re begging for mercy at the hands of the M$ VM. I had to create a threadpool and a scheduler in an applet I wrote about a year ago because the M$ VM couldn’t handle it. Suns VM took it and begged for more.
And yet another thing lately that ticked me off. I have Suns 1.4.1 JRE installed for IE and Mozilla. I installed HP JetAdmin Web the other day to manage my print server. The damn thing won’t run on the Sun VM. I have to load IE, disable the Sun VM, then restart IE and run it through that. It’s mostly just Java applets on the page — but they fail to load with the sun VM! That my friends, is anti-competitive behavior.
From a Jave developers standpoint, we’ll be relieved. I look forward to the day I may not have to write for outdated API’s that don’t provide what I really want to do – just because joe sixpack dosen’t want to download a REAL jvm. I look forward to the day when I can test my java applications and applets once — on a Linux box, and not have to worry about them running on the M$ VM.
Is java dead? No. Will it just dissapear? No – it’s installed base is too vast, and it’s used by too many universities to teach intro to OO. Will I ever use C#? No. Not where there’s Java, with VM’s ported to more than just one (or two) OS’s.
Not to mention, I just started a new job where I’m working with servlets – These things blow the crap out of ASP.
they used to teach MS Visual C++ 6.0, but this is the last year they will. Starting next year, they’re going to start teaching Java for two of their three programming classes (the first will remain Visual Basic.)
> Among Microsoft’s products that happens to be monopolies are Windows, IE (part of Windows) and Office. All three don’t have the .NET Framework. And yet C# is growing in popularity. Hmm…
Exactly. There is no such a thing as an immediate threat from .Net because there are practically no such a thing as .Net applications.
Arrgh!!!! My product will become extinct and fail if my competitor does not include it in their product!!
Except Sun is a greedy short-sighted company that couldn’t live with Microsoft improving Java to make it work on the Microsoft platform.
No, Sun couldn’t live with MS violating the terms of their contract with Sun. That issue was about their CONTRACT! I wish people would get that straight and stop trying to spin the story against Sun.
And since when does adding proprietary, single-platform features to a cross-platform language, in clear violation of a licensing agreement, qualify as an “improvement?”
This whole issue is pointless anyway. The strength of Java doesn’t depend on applets. There aren’t that many of them around anymore. Java rules on SERVERS! Java will become extinct if MS doesn’t include their own ancient VM? I can’t believe Sun would say something so ridiculous in writing, especially in court.
I find it amazing how people love to take sides in a battle between two greedy corporations. Both are only interested in their own bottom line. And I truly believe that if Sun was in the position of Microsoft today they would be screwing the average consumer just as much or more than Microsoft ever has. Sun didn’t create Java out of a noble desire to serve the world.
No, Sun couldn’t live with MS violating the terms of their contract with Sun
Did you ever read the contract? What are you talking about? Do you know Sun signed those contracts with how many number of companies? Does the contract say MS should include java, should develop for Java. The contract allows MS to use Java, it doesn’t enforce it. I wonder how stupid people can be, can’t you think just a little, just a little.
My product will become extinct and fail if my competitor does not include it in their product
Exactly. Now aside from the fact that Microsoft is a monopoly, it would be a big stretch of laws to force MS to include Java. That thing is pretty much stupid.
applet I wrote about a year ago because the M$ VM couldn’t handle it. Suns VM took it and begged for more.
What’s your point. Are you saying that MS did it knowingly. In that case, please compare MS VM and Sun’s VM in other areas too. Not only that, but compare all VMs all together, and jump to the conclusion that, any VM that does poorly compared to another one is actually a violation of a contract, or a violation of a law.
And yet another thing lately that ticked me off. I have Suns 1.4.1 JRE installed for IE and Mozilla. I installed HP JetAdmin Web the other day to manage my print server. The damn thing won’t run on the Sun VM. I have to load IE, disable the Sun VM, then restart IE and run it through that. It’s mostly just Java applets on the page — but they fail to load with the sun VM! That my friends, is anti-competitive behavior
That my friend, is a complete proof of your idiocy. I am not going to comment on how stupid your conclusion is, but I think you should work more, read more. I don’t think you can even be a programmer with this type of reasoning.
Remember what they did with Java. They shipped an incompatible Java with their OS thus hurting Sun and thus helping their .NET project
You are an idiot my friend, completely, pure idiot. How the hell do you know, MS’s Java is incompatible. Is it because you read it somewhere, is it because you liked the idea. I am developing in Java, I know Java more than anythingelse in the whole world, but I am completely shocked to see someone like you making a stupid claim, sounding like they know something, yet they don’t have a clue what they are talking about. I admire you.
No, because the people will be the same and do it again.
What about my language, what about perl, what about others. What will happen to those platforms, languages? How come shipping java with windows help these guys. Hmmm, you never thought about it, right?
But MS wants to annihilate Sun in gerneral and Java specifically completly.
What about Sun’s position againts MS. Did you ever read what Sun executives say about MS. Sun is actively preventing MS to do anything with Java, they sue MS, they argue with them. Did you ever consider Sun’s behavior against MS. Well, of course not, since you don’t think.
While I am not a big fan of the Microsoft monopoly, trying to get Microsoft to include Java on Windows AGAIN is just foolish. If Sun hadn’t sued Microsoft in the first place regarding Microsoft’s COOL and USEFUL extensions to Java, then Java would have already been on over 100 MILLION Windows machines. Many Microsoft apps were going to be rewritten in Java, providing a giant base for Java.
Finally a smart guy.
it used to bundle a crippled version of Java and this bundling is the price MS has to pay for trying to cripple the java language, you see.
Who proved that MS’s Java is crippled, who proved that it is done knowingly, who proved that no other such Java from other companies are not crippled when subject to the same questions. Another idiot.
In essence, there are idiots out there, be careful.
Hmm.. Interesting concept SUN is pulling… Basically, they are marketing an inferior product that isn’t doing so hot anymore, and in order to save it from disappearing they try to legally force companies to license it? Makes no sense. Not in a capitalist society.
Java will decline on servers anyway. C# is a vastly superior language that will soon be available for most platforms.
Perhaps Java will retain its popularity on embeded systems such as PDAs and cell phones, but its days on servers and workstations are numbered.
I am wondering if Sun executives are being pushed to make this sort of claim because of the squeeze on the server and OS revenue streams. Are they desperate to expand the Java revenues?
Is the corollary to this that MS will take Sun to court to deploy .Net on Sun’s servers? Taking this further, does this set a precedent for MS to require IBM, Oracle, BEA, and the like to carry .Net in their application servers where until now Java has dominated?
Who lost the battle .NET or Java ?
Who dictates the rules the winner or the loser ?
Since when the loser can _demand_ anything from the winner ?
We are living in a free world with free enteprise.
This implies that the losers lose and the winners win.
And , NO, the winners don’t owe ANYTHING to the losers.
I am not a big fan of Microsoft, but if they won the battle I take my hat off to them.
Let the strongest survive. I don’t want our courts helping the losers.
>> Big disappointed with Java. Ditto with C#. Can’t companies >> come up with anything better than these?
Yes. Ruby and Python.
We all should thank Mr. Serge, who pointed out how stupid we all are, that we don’t think at all and that his opinion is the only valid. Thanks Serge. I felt like such a fool but after reading your rant I am truly enlightent. Your opinion is the only intelligent. Other’s only show how stupid people are.
Cheers,
Andreas
“I do think MS Should include Sun Java and I think that it will only enhance the usr experience. ”
Explain please.
As a seasoned Java developer I can tell you that Java is not suited for desktop use, except in cases such as the games that Pogo creates, and even then it’s not great.
Java was relegated to the server room long ago due to it’s slowness on the desktop with the 1.2 & 1.3 versions. That sealed Java’s fate as a server based language.
I don’t know if the industry could survive if .NET had to be included in everything and Java was not.
Two totally different things, .NET and Java.
Java was invented BY Sun Microsystems, and they are the original developer. .NET is just like MS-Java, or ActiveX, or C#. Simply a way to take industry standard and try to market a way to change the standards, which would give the standards organizations no power whatsoever- and force everyone left who did not use MS products to HAVE to use them. ActiveX was the only of the three aforementioned that appears to be totally msft- and they never developed it to the level of safety, security, and robustness that Java was developed to.
They honestly expect the government to support them? Sounds like the CIA backing Pinochet.
That my friend, is a complete proof of your idiocy. I am not going to comment on how stupid your conclusion is, but I think you should work more, read more. I don’t think you can even be a programmer with this type of reasoning.
You’re an idiot if you think calling other people idiots constitutes some kind of argument.
Hello,
You overestimate the role of Sun and Java in the Microsoft starategy! Of course, Microsoft would like to minimalize the role of the Java but it is not the most important question for now in Microsoft. Much more important are billions of dollars Microsoft spends on testing and debugging their applications written in C++ – not Java.
A little history:
When they choosed C++ at the end of 80s they thougth they got a silver bullet: a wonderfull language for everything, that will help them in creating their monster super applications.
But very soon they realised that althou it was a good language for relatively small applications (few thousend lines), it was almost impossible to find bugs in programs that have millions of lines of code (Exel, Outlook, Word,…etc). Their first attitude was then to solve it with MFC but it only complicated the problem (if you know Windows API, you guess what I mean).
So they decided to search for a new language and make a big revolution in Windows programming, but in the meantime they decided to hire more and more testers for testing. But thousands of testers cost millions of dollars every month!
At that time guys from Microsoft looked at the work of prof. Niklaus Wirth (Algol, Pascal, Modula, Oberon) – who felt into oblivion in USA now – and his main idea: a good programming language is a base for everything. If you have bad language with a lot of bells and wistles that does not support you in your work and does not help you in finding your mistakes you will never succeed. That’s why all his languages are famous in that, they are simple, strong and control programmer very tidely (However, not all programmers like languages where they cannot extract a root from a pointer, but on the long run it helps ;-).
Microsoft realised that Oberon could be a good solution but not for know: It was too far ahead and differed too much from the present day paradigm. Besides, there are millions of programmers skilled on C-like languages so what is needed is something that is strong as Wirthian’ languages and similar to C. So Microsoft hired guys from Wirth’s camp (Clemens Szyperski, Anders Hejlsberg, and others) to create a new platform more stable and easier for creating and debugging new giant apps.
And .NET with C# was born. And by the way it will distroy Java. Sun has right 🙁
Marek
I think Sun is just being dumb with this. It IS *M$’s* OS, they can ship whatever they want with it… I’m not a great fan of M$, but I don’t like what I see happening… Sun barely agreed to let BeUnited port Java to BeOS, yet they are trying to slam it down M$’s throat. I mean, if you produced a piece of software, would you want some guy forcing you to ship Gator with it because it is a “standard.” [OK bad example
]
The court injunction says *bundle*. In other words, no y/n questions, no InstallerVISE stuff.
OK,
Microsoft starts shipping Sun Java but can the OS user *choose* to uninstall Sun JRE and …
run the Microsoft´s VM/JRE on their windows installations (don’t know the ruling in detail) ??
If so that’s fine. I’ll continue to run Microsoft’s JRE on my Windows.
(This is if I ever upgrade my win 2000 to another windows version with Sun’s Java, which I don’t want to! – win 2000 is more solid and fast for now)
I think Sun is just being dumb with this. It IS *M$’s* OS, they can ship whatever they want with it… I’m not a great fan of M$, but I don’t like what I see happening… Sun barely agreed to let BeUnited port Java to BeOS, yet they are trying to slam it down M$’s throat.
How bout you get acquainted with the story first. They arent just shoving it down MS’s throat because they can. They are doing it because MS has been shipping a broken/incompatible JVM and was still calling it Java. Its not shoving down their throat, its saying “hey, you’ve been giving us a bad name wrongfully, we want to correct this while there’s still time.”
I think microsoft should just drop java support completely. No JVM is a good JVM right? If you want it make it an install option. Otherwise leave it out. If Sun wants everyone to use their JVM they do it the Flash/Shockwave way – have pages link back to them.
1. Microsoft stealing code
From time to time there comes the allegation that Microsoft stole code. Microsoft has such vast money and power, they simply don’t need to steel. They can afford to either buy or redo anything they want. And if there are some scraps of BSD code in Windows, its OK, that’s the spirit of the BSD license – it was meant to be used.
2. Microsoft stealing good ideas
That is natural. And if no patents are violated, I consider it good practice.
From Windows version to version we see many apps, that were third party programs before, show up in the Windows base stem. This happened with Internet Explorer, Outlook, Media Player, Disk compression and possibly some other stuff I fail to remember now.
3. C# (or Java) is a cool programming language
The language C# is certainly nothing revolutionary.
Using C# or Java is probably not much different.
Compared to C++ both languages are dumbed down/cut down versions. With one important shift in focus:
C++ is generally used as a compiled language, while Java and C# are used as VM interpreted languages (combined with JIT techniques).
Interpretation has its price but allows for some interesting techniques like reflection and easy loading of classes into a running system (easier than using DLLs).
But like I said, all these languages are not inovative.
Have a look at Erlang (http://www.erlang.org) to see a really cool language, with more expressive power (it is a functional language) and usable for cutting concurrent distributed code.
4. .NET is an answer to Java (including J2EE)
.NET is definitly Microsofts answer to Java both the familiar J2SE and J2EE. It is all about creating big apps from components which are able to be distributed on one or more servers, be the app strongly coupled or loosly by some web services.
It might feature some newer ideas, but is mostly an answer to Suns J2EE framework.
Regards,
Marc
Come on! .NET wasn’t developed over night. Sun has known about Cool (the project name for C#) for years.
Dear Jesus,
Please let ‘Cool’ not have stood for something obnoxious like C Object Oriented Language.
Marc
“The language C# is certainly nothing revolutionary.
Using C# or Java is probably not much different.
Compared to C++ both languages are dumbed down/cut down versions. With one important shift in focus:”
C# compiles much closer to native code than Java does. Therefore, it performs much better.
But C# also has some other major advantages over Java, such as the fact that it allows the programmer more flexibility with operator overloading and such (something Java doesn’t allow).
As far as being cut down versions of C++, that’s not true. And the important shift in focus is speed of development saved by not having to worry about details like memory management, which both C# and Java handle automatically. Misuse of pointers is probably the biggest source of programming errors and one of the biggest frustrations of C and C++ programming. Having to manually manage memory increases development by an order of magnitude. Automatic memory management is one of the biggest benefits of C# over C++.
And before anyone points out the costs of automatic memory management, let me say I just don’t think that is an issue anymore. When processors were running at 33Mhz, it might have been. But today, it simply isn’t much of a performance hit for the runtime to keep track of object references and such.
Because of the rapid speed of development and ease of use of C#, I think it will ultimately obsolete C++ for most application development except where optimization is very critical, or for very low level programming.
“Sun argued that the inclusion of Java with Windows is a time-sensitive issue and that further delays could be harmful to the company and its technology”
Ok, stupidity have name and a face and it is hereby known as Sun. I certainly don’t agree with some of MS buisness practices both in the present and in the past but it is buiness as usual and that’s how it presently works in the sandbox (very unfortunately and should be changed ASAP IMHO).
Ok, Sun creates Java and it has all these cool features and some very intricate benefits for Sun if their plan works out. Then they let every1 implement the Java “platform” on their system because that’s is crucial for their plan to succede (if every1 starts to write programs in Java and Java is cross-platform, people (companies) will buy the system that is best at running Java). Now as MS sees how useful Java really is (and they did) they implement it on their system and is fully compatible with Suns implementation i.e. a program written according to Suns Java standards will run just fine on MS Java machine as well. Now they also see some holes that could be fixed by adding features to their Java but IN NO WAY makes “standard” Java apps unable to run on MS JVM thus the cross platform idea still works if you adhere to the standard (which is not a proper standard as it still hasen’t passed a standardisation organisation).
BUT Sun saw the extension as a threat and in some ways they were correct but they took the road most travelled in trying to put out the possible growing fire created by MS extensions. They filed a lawsuit (common corp pratice as you have to put those expensive legal departments to good and proper use). Sun won and MS was not allowed to develop their JVM any further unless MS followed Suns Java specification to the last dot. Well MS got pissed (as would I have been if I were in MS position) and stopped developing their JVM any further and started sketching on something new and “better” that would please those developing for MS OSes.
Now Sun sees that the new kid is in town and he apparently have all the “right” toys and some of the other kids start to play with the new kid instead. So now Sun says, to the parents that sometimes put limits to what games the kids can play, “unless the new kid buys and plays with the tools we’ve got as well we will be all alone because none of the other kids will want to play with us”.
Lesson to be learned; being nice and ask the new kid if it is ok to play with his/her toys and only be a crybaby and run to the parents when nothing else works usually pays of in the long run.
I other words, if Sun can’t provide a good enough platform to develop software for that developers prefers it over others alternatived then Java should be put out of it’s misery. By this I believe and know that Java is good and able to fend for itself and Sun is, IMHO, by this action doing more harm that good to the “Java cause”
“Because of the rapid speed of development and ease of use of C#, I think it will ultimately obsolete C++ for most application development except where optimization is very critical, or for very low level programming.”
Personally I really doubt it.
“Ok, stupidity have name and a face and it is hereby known as Sun. ”
Oh no, they’re not stupid. They just want to milk MS a little. What amount is mentioned in a claim, one billion ? Not bad for a company with the stock trading at $3 and a change : http://www.reuters.com/financeQuoteLookup.jhtml?ticker=SUNW.O
And the important shift in focus is speed of development saved by not having to worry about details like memory management, which both C# and Java handle automatically. Misuse of pointers is probably the biggest source of programming errors and one of the biggest frustrations of C and C++ programming. Having to manually manage memory increases development by an order of magnitude. Automatic memory management is one of the biggest benefits of C# over C++.
GC certainly avoids a certain class of errors. But it gives you new headaches. The programmers tend to load off all responsibility to the GC system. So you end up with Java apps that grab memory like hogs.
To be honest I really don’t know what is better, this kind of laissez-faire style regarding memory usage or the other extreme of developers armed with tools like Purify to root out memory bugs.
Regards,
Marc
“So you end up with Java apps that grab memory like hogs.
To be honest I really don’t know what is better, this kind of laissez-faire style regarding memory usage or the other extreme of developers armed with tools like Purify to root out memory bugs.”
Well, I think C# does a pretty good job of garbage collection. And as far as grabbing memory, I think that is better than the alternative which is memory leaks and memory that never gets returned to the system because the programmer forgot to destroy his object reference. That can never happen in Java or C# (barring a bug in the VM itself).
Sander Stoks: Does anyone remember Stacker? MS developed DoubleSpace but lost a court case because Stacker code was found in DoubleSpace.
Notice they (Microsoft) lost in the court case. And the very act of licensing Stacker probably also kept that company alive. Now, as a very very very big corporation, it is tad impossible to control everyone. Code stealing is one area of that. Other companies like IBM, Computer Associates, etc. all face similar problems.
Anonymous: They shipped an incompatible Java with their OS thus hurting Sun and thus helping their .NET project.
Now, tell me where Java is incompatible with Microsoft’s VM? JNI? Stands for Java Native Interface. Accroading to Sun (http://java.sun.com/products/jdk/1.2/docs/guide/jni/) it “embedding the JavaTM virtual machine into native applications.” In other words, WORA lost anyway.
RMI – Remote Method Invocation is used simply in the same way as IIOP via CORBA. Now, Microsoft made two things better than both JNI and RMI. You could still be WORA if you aren’t using Microsoft’s extensions.
Anonymous: I still think that MS’ monopolies help them in pushing .NET and makes things easier for them.
Which monopolies may I ask? Microsoft still haven’t announce when they are integrating .NET Framework with its desktop/workstation version of Windows. .NET is however integrated into the next generation of Windows server and PDA versions – in both cases, hardly a monopoly.
Anonymous: No, because the people will be the same and do it again.
Huh? You didn’t debunk my statement rather made a ambiguous statement in return.
Bryan: I installed HP JetAdmin Web the other day to manage my print server.
It uses a lot of Win32 and also accesses your printer via Windows. If they used pure Java, it wouldn’t be possible.
Bryan: just because joe sixpack dosen’t want to download a REAL jvm.
Joe Sixpack would download anything if you convince him to do so. Look at how Flash picked up….. was it initially bundled with Windows?
And to think that downloading Flash today takes a longer time than a JRE.
DrP: That issue was about their CONTRACT!
Exactly. Who was short-sighted enough to free Microsoft from their contract obligations in their court case settlement?
Serge: Did you ever read the contract?
That, my friend, would be impossible.
Serge: Does the contract say MS should include java, should develop for Java.[…]
Perhaps you should read the court transcripts instead.
Simba: Java will decline on servers anyway. C# is a vastly superior language that will soon be available for most platforms.
Not anytime soon my friend. Mono may be for Linux, but it isn’t developed chiefly for servers. While there is still nothing for other platforms (AIX, Solaris, Irix, etc). Java being replaced by C#? Not in this decade for sure.
Chris Parker: Yes. Ruby and Python.
Interesting to note that neither scripting language is made by any company.
obelix: .NET is just like MS-Java, or ActiveX, or C#.
.NET Framework itself is a lot more than “MS-Java”. And ActiveX?
obelix: Simply a way to take industry standard and try to market a way to change the standards, which would give the standards organizations no power whatsoever- and force everyone left who did not use MS products to HAVE to use them.
To point out that Java isn’t part of ANY standards body. JCP was created after C# was accepted by the EMCA, and JCP itself is a lame attempt to making Java more industry-orientated.
obelix: ActiveX was the only of the three aforementioned that appears to be totally msft- and they never developed it to the level of safety, security, and robustness that Java was developed to
And to think that Sun would use ActiveX for its JRE…. Please, don’t confuse ActiveX and .NET.
Marek: Their first attitude was then to solve it with MFC but it only complicated the problem (if you know Windows API, you guess what I mean).
IMHO, MFC wasn’t made to solve that problem rather to make C programmers more comfortable with C++.
chicobaud: Microsoft starts shipping Sun Java but can the OS user *choose* to uninstall Sun JRE and …
run the Microsoft´s VM/JRE on their windows installations
I never ever said something on the contrary. In fact, one of my points was this on another thread, IIRC. However, the message you are replying to, I was saying that Microsoft would not include the installation procedure but rather have to install it automatically.
Richard Fillion: “hey, you’ve been giving us a bad name wrongfully, we want to correct this while there’s still time.”
That bad name won them a lot of awards… Besides, I don’t see how Sun JVM 1.4.1 would actually *help* the situation :-P.
Marc van Woerkom: This happened with Internet Explorer, Outlook, Media Player, Disk compression and possibly some other stuff I fail to remember now.
This includes Windows/Explorer itself (remember Norton Desktop?)
“Mono may be for Linux, but it isn’t developed chiefly for servers. While there is still nothing for other platforms (AIX, Solaris, Irix, etc). Java being replaced by C#? Not in this decade for sure.”
But since mono is an OSS project being developed for Linux, what is to stop it from being ported to Solaris, AIX, and Irix? I would not be surprised if IBM ported it to AIX themselves because AIX will be adopting GNOME. SUN will be adopting GNOME as well. I doubt SUN will port mono to Solaris because mono competes with J2EE, but it won’t be long before the OSS community ports it to Solaris.
That, my friend, would be impossible.
Why is that, you can’t read???
Perhaps you should read the court transcripts instead.
I did.
Troll on
Simba: I would not be surprised if IBM ported it to AIX themselves because AIX will be adopting GNOME.
Any link to show that IBM would be supporting GNOME? Cause if they are, only one can wonder why they are part of the KDE League… Besides, the technical difference between AIX and Linux, plus the fact that IBM has a lot of vested investment in Java, I don’t think this would happen anytime soon.
Simba: but it won’t be long before the OSS community ports it to Solaris.
That is a lot easier to shallow. However, Mono itself is largely client-focused. While there are contributors contributing components that would only be useful for servers, you can’t deny that the direction Mono is taking isn’t to the servers, rather the desktop.
But of course, with investment from parties like Intel, it is entirely possible Mono would be available for server use. But I doubt it would cause a huge exodus from Java to Mono within a short period of time.
Serge: Why is that, you can’t read???
The entire transcript of the contract isn’t available for the public.
Serge: I did.
Just to ask, which court case was that?
Serge: Troll on
Look, I’m not on Microsoft’s side nor on Sun’s side. I’m mostly on the prior, and that’s because in this case, and in every antitrust case, I believe they are in the right. But Sun wouldn’t be so close to winning if the contract stipulates conditions you and you alone claim.
To rajan r, rockwell:
I’m not trolling. I work in an office full of Windows machines every day. Every PC has Windows 2000, except one.
So my manager, whose PC runs XP, has asked 2 or 3 times why her PC spontaneously reboots while running our Swing app. It doesn’t happen with non-Java apps, so probably the JVM (1.4.1) taxes out the system more than most programs.
This doesn’t happen on the Win2K boxes, so when I say XP is a downgrade, I’m serious. Your mileage may vary of course…
“Now, tell me where Java is incompatible with Microsoft’s VM? JNI? Stands for Java Native Interface. Accroading to Sun (http://ja va.sun.com/products/jdk/1.2/docs/guide/jni/) it “embedding the JavaTM virtual machine into native applications.” In other words, WORA lost anyway.”
Rajan, everytime you higher the level of your own stupidity with your answers. Read it again. You do not need to loose WORA if you do not link your Java code to OS Dependent code with JNI. Do you know anything about coding? I just wonder.
“RMI – Remote Method Invocation is used simply in the same way as IIOP via CORBA. Now, Microsoft made two things better than both JNI and RMI. You could still be WORA if you aren’t using Microsoft’s extensions.”
Stop spreading your idiocy. Last week, you were speaking or lying without even knowing what is RMI. Now, if I write a Java program using RMI, it will work on Mac, Linux, FreeBSD, etc, but not on Windows with MS VM. Why? Because MS did not implement RMI. This is why you loose WORA. Stop lying dear.
“Joe Sixpack would download anything if you convince him to do so. Look at how Flash picked up….. was it initially bundled with Windows?
And to think that downloading Flash today takes a longer time than a JRE.”
How does Joe Sixpack would know that the computer he has comes preinstalled with the stupid crippled ancient buggy piece of shit called MS VM?
“To point out that Java isn’t part of ANY standards body. JCP was created after C# was accepted by the EMCA, and JCP itself is a lame attempt to making Java more industry-orientated.”
WILL YOU STOP LYING RAJAN? JCP WAS THERE FROM THE FIRST DAY OF JAVA. THIS IS THE THIRD TIME YOU ARE LYING AND I AM TRYING TO CORRECT YOU. In all the cases, JCP is there Rajan R. Lame attempt? Do you know how many companies are there in JCP? Do you know how many JCP bullets are there now? Go and read some before opening your mouth and spreading lies and delusions.
The entire transcript of the contract isn’t available for the public.
Here, http://java.sun.com/announcement/
Just to ask, which court case was that?
I read the contract above, and the government anti-trust court scripts which are available on Microsoft’s web site.
Look, I’m not on Microsoft’s side nor on Sun’s side. I’m mostly on the prior, and that’s because in this case, and in every antitrust case, I believe they are in the right. But Sun wouldn’t be so close to winning if the contract stipulates conditions you and you alone claim
Look, I don’t care which side you are with. I don’t have any particular problem with people who side with Sun, or Microsoft, whatever, who cares and why should I care. My trolling on was referring to your “weird” posts regarding my posts which has nothing to do with you. For some reason you want to take what I say to others on you.
Since when should any private company be obligated to include a competing product? As i remember it, the reason WinXP didn’t ship with a Sun JRE is because of earlier legal issues wherein Sun blocked MS from licensing an up to date version of Java. As such, Microsoft decided not to ship a crippled and out of date runtime environment with the OS. Can’t imagine why…
In the end, if Windows is lacking something that people want – assuming people want Java – then either the users will request it, or they’ll stop using Windows.
Or, it could be that the only people who want Java in Windows are users who can install it themselves, and Sun.
JCP was there at 1995. It become formal process at 1998. JCP version 2.0 released at 2000. JCP versio 2.5 released at October 2002. Here is the proof:
http://www.fawcette.com/javapro/2003_02/magazine/departments/public…
I hope you would stop lying now.
Cheers. : )
Since when should any private company be obligated to include a competing product?
Since Microsoft was deemed an illegal monopoly. Since Microsoft owns Windows and can use Windows as a club to kill Sun’s Java product, it is only fair to include Java.
As i remember it, the reason WinXP didn’t ship with a Sun JRE is because of earlier legal issues wherein Sun blocked MS from licensing an up to date version of Java. As such, Microsoft decided not to ship a crippled and out of date runtime environment with the OS. Can’t imagine why…
That isn’t why they stopped shipping it. If that were the case, they could (and should) have stopped shipping it in 1999. However, they kept it around until *gasp* they had a Java clone to sell. Once their program was in place, they stopped shipping Java.
In the end, if Windows is lacking something that people want – assuming people want Java – then either the users will request it, or they’ll stop using Windows.
That is completely untrue. For the last 10 years people have been shaking their heads at Microsoft’s business practices and the quality of their products, but has demand for Windows declined? No. There are already plenty of reasons not to use Windows, but people still do. People are sheep and will continue to support stupid products and ideas until they die (the existance of outspoken vegetarians and environmentalists is proof of this).
Don’t count your idea as the general public opinion. Few people care about the untrue stories and claims about Microsoft. People do know that, some few people cry a lot, shout a lot, but at the end nobody cares about them. Sun is a good example, and will be an excellent example after the final decision is made in the court.
For the last 10-20 years we have been hearing all sorts of speculations about Microsoft, including the claim that Microsoft will use IE to take over the internet. That didn’t happen, but still people like you came up with new claims.
Regarding the monopoly issue, the federal judge already made its decision regarding the remedy. 2 states objected to that, and we’ll see the result, which is considered to be strong by the experts. Now, the federal court rejects the bundling, and you here say that they should bundle it with their OS, because Microsoft is monopoly. You respect the court ruling if you like it, but disrespect it if you disagree.
However, they kept it around until *gasp* they had a Java clone to sell. Once their program was in place, they stopped shipping Java.
Look you have to be an absolute idiot to tell that. Here is why? Sun sues Microsoft not to distribute Java, and you tell that it is Microsoft which stops distributing it. I wish you good luck in your life.
Another issue is that, Microsoft-bashers were always accusing Microsoft for bundling products with their OS. But now you guys defend Sun for forcing a bundling. What kind of a logic is that? You don’t even understand that, Sun is not working for you, Sun is working for itself. If Microsoft has to bundle Java, it also has to bundle Perl, Php, Apache. That’s why I sometimes call people like you idiot, because I have no way of understanding your logic. It is totally based on your hate, nothing more than that. I don’t think that you know anything about the technology, including Java.
“Any link to show that IBM would be supporting GNOME? Cause if they are, only one can wonder why they are part of the KDE League..”
I’ll look for a link, but I’m pretty sure that HP, SUN, and IBM are all replacing CDE with GNOME.
KDE has several problems that prevent it from being adopted widely on the corporate desktop. Some of them are technical (KDE’s lack of CORBA supprot for example), and others are not (licensing issues with Qt).
The last I checked, most AIX users are with servers and mainframe and do not use CDE. But anyway, the big reason why many companies don’t use KDE over GNOME is not because of the CORBA support (Bonobo is pretty much adulterated CORBA) or licensing issues, but is Trolltech. No company the size of Sun, IBM and HP would like to take orders from a tiny puny company.
Besides, KDE drop CORBA because it was too slow and it wasn’t needed. They were only using it for small purposes, purposes better off with custom software like KParts.
>>>>Since when should any private company be obligated to include a competing product?
<<<<Since Microsoft was deemed an illegal monopoly. Since Microsoft owns Windows and can use Windows as a club to kill Sun’s Java product, it is only fair to include Java.
You missed the point entirely. This isn’t a issue about good vs. evil (java vs .net). The issue is that IBM and BEA fought hard to control a combined 60% of the java market, whereas SUN controls a tiny 6% of the market. What SUN is doing is trying to muscle into the market (where IBM and BEA earned their market shares fairly) why using the courts.
It would be better for the judge to hand down the “must carry” injunction to require Microsoft to carry say ANY java 1.3 COMPATIBLE vm. Of course that way IBM or BEA will most likely to be the supplier of the java vm to microsoft — but that’s good because they are the indisputed leaders of the market.