“For years now, Linux has been a black sheep standing in the shadow of Apple and Microsoft. Despite having a fervent and enthusiastic following, the operating system hasn’t been able to grab a sizable share of the computing market and has instead been content to subsist on the customers that come away dissatisfied with the mainstream competition. But that may be about to change. With the release of Microsoft Windows 8 on the horizon, some are saying Linux may have a great opportunity to steal a significant share of the market away from Microsoft, allowing it to finally take the helm as a major operating system service provider.” This has to stop, and the only reason I’m linking to this nonsense is to make this very clear: Linux will not magically conquer the desktop or even make any significant gains because of Windows 8. People who don’t like Windows 8 (Vista) will continue to use Windows 7 (Windows XP). This is getting so tiring. And does it even matter? Linux is winning big time in the mobile space, server space, and countless other spaces. The desktop is and always has been irrelevant to Linux.
Deja vu: Windows 8 is an opportunity for Linux
169 Comments
2012-08-29 1:15 am
Derp, why would I use such a similar name if I wanted to pretend to be someone else?
Learn to take a joke or at least come up with a witty reply. You could learn something from some of your fellow Windows users.
I no longer go by .NET jerkface because I no longer feel like giving MS a free endorsement.
It was nt_jerkface, not .net_jerkface.
I’ve even linked to my blog in some posts with this account, go look in my history if you don’t believe me.
I have better things to do, like picking my nose or watching “Night of the Ghouls”.
2012-08-29 4:03 am
It was nt_jerkface, not .net_jerkface.
Thanks I know my nick and what it stood for.
The nick was originally .net jerkface. You can verify that through Google instead of continuing to make weird assumptions.
2012-08-29 6:06 am
BSODs only really happen for hardware failure now, not really the fault of the OS.
I have rarely had to hack the registry (maybe for program specific settings) and I haven’t booted into safe mode in almost a decade.
Oh well, lets still pretend the latest version of Windows is XP.
2012-08-29 7:32 am
Then there are the subpixel font issues, game resolution changing problems, clipping, video stuttering, and dependence on xorg.conf.
subpixel font issues? video stuttering? depencence on xorg.conf? when did you run Linux last?
I’m not much of a gamer so I don’t know if there’s any outstanding problems with resolution changes but the games I have from the humble bundles run fine in fullscreen.
2012-08-30 7:19 pm
2012-08-28 11:34 pm
Because staring at an incomprehensible BSOD or having to manually fix the issue with a safe boot and registry hacking is much superior….
Hey, at least the Windows 8 BSOD has a sad face 
2012-08-29 2:33 am
These posts shouldn’t even exist until X has a decent fallback mode or is replaced by wayland.
Leaving grandma in the command line because of a driver crash or broken update in 2012 is completely unacceptable.
Cue the excuses.
KMS has fixed this. Now all open source drivers (Intel, Radeon, Nouveau) and all DRI drivers (in-kernel drivers) use KMS by default.
What this means is that when the kernel boots and the driver is loaded, your monitor and video is configured on the fly (automatically) for you, so you get a native resolution automatically, and X/Wayland uses this by default, so the user never have to do anything, all this happens automatically, and the user never sees a command line or anything like that.
What the user actually sees is that the kernel flickers for a second and then a sleek splash screen with the native resolution, and then X/Wayland “just works”.
There’s nothing to configure. Things “just work” these days.
Troll harder next time.
Edited 2012-08-29 02:50 UTC
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2012-08-29 6:41 am
DryhteWhat? Things on PC ‘just work’? Time for an Apple lawsuit then… there must be a software patent somewhere about things ‘just working’.
2012-08-28 9:03 pm
some are saying Linux may have a great opportunity to steal a significant share of the market away from Microsoft
Only if OEMs pre-install Linux on machines and stores stock them on the shelves.
It also remains to be seen how typical home computer buyers will react to Windows 8. Seems that the majority of technical-oriented users don’t care for the new interface, but that’s not an indicator of future sales.
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2012-08-28 9:07 pm
orestesExactly. If a distro, probably Ubuntu, got significant OEM backing it might gain some ground. Until then this talk of stealing market share from MS is just silly. If anything people who don’t like 8 will just elect to remain with 7.
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2012-08-29 1:40 am
bassbeastYou really should, as its the first upgrade since Win2K to XP X64 where I can point to plenty of specific, concrete, useful improvements and say “That is worth upgrading for”, which BTW I can’t say about Win 8 because other than the boot “hack” (Look up Win 8 hybrid boot to see why its a hack) there really isn’t much to like and metro is a big pile of suck on any large screen.
But comparing XP to 7 you have MUCH better memory management. With XP you can have 4Gb of RAM and still it’ll hit the paging file rather than use the RAM, whereas 7 will take that RAM and load your most used programs in a cache, this means that even on my little netbook everything launches instantly thanks to RAM caching. You can actually go 64bit now without the driver hunts like I had to do with XP X64 and with RAM so cheap its a really nice boost to your speed to have that extra RAM.
Jumplists and breadcrumbs mean its incredibly simple to get back to where you were the day before, just right click on the Explorer icon to get your folders back from yesterday and right click on your browser to get your websites back, and with breadcrumbs you can instantly hop from any point you are at in the file system to root in a single click, or jump anywhere in between. I could easily list a half dozen more but those alone make it well worth the $80 upgrade price to HP IMHO, although I don’t recommend pro unless you need AD support as you can get most of the same features with third party freeware and save the extra dough.
As for Linux…sigh. See my other post and read the links I provided. There are some serious issues with the fundamental way Linux is designed that is gonna have to be changed to make it ready for the masses, but like any large org trying to get everyone to change the way they do things is gonna be difficult and take years, if it ever changes. Linux was supposed to gain when Vista bombed, instead people went to XP, and in the case of 8 people will just stay with 7. In the end Linux is too much work for too little reward, especially when you can pick up a Win 7 family pack for $120, because at $30 a license all it takes is one PITA issue to make it more costly of my time than Windows costs my wallet.
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Bobthearch
I agree with all of that; I just happen to be a procrastinator when deciding to upgrade something that works perfectly well as-is. On one hand it’s a behavior that leaves me a little behind the tech times. On the other hand it saves me a lot of money.
And quite frankly computers don’t need upgrading as often as they did a few years ago. Not only have the hardware requirements for software and the internet stagnated, computers seem to last longer. My primary computer is six years old this month (Core 2 Duo) and still runs like new.
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2012-09-02 5:30 am
zimaits the first upgrade since Win2K to XP X64 where I can point to plenty of specific, concrete, useful improvements and say “That is worth upgrading for”
[…]
You can actually go 64bit now without the driver hunts like I had to do with XP X64
But the only thing making 2k->XP64 worth it (if you considered XP32 not worth it) was 3-4 GiB of RAM or more – hardly “plenty of […] improvements” & a fairly rare scenario back then. Oh yeah, and it brought those driver pitfalls…
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2012-08-28 9:20 pm
shmerlThe real way to deal with it is to give MS serious legal beating for anticompetitive bundling. But so far they masterfully evaded such kind of outcome by escaping the equation. I.e. if refund is possible for the Windows tax – they aren’t violating the law. And refund is delegated to OEMs who make it a nightmare to get. In the end MS comes out “clean” and Windows is still de facto bundled to computers all around.
So some successful cases against OEMs (like this one:
http://www.techworld.com.au/article/414500/lenovo_ordered_pay_1920_… )
can decrease their eagerness to play MS’s game and will benefit Linux over all.
Edited 2012-08-28 21:38 UTC
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2012-08-29 12:24 am
tomcatThe real way to deal with it is to give MS serious legal beating for anticompetitive bundling. But so far they masterfully evaded such kind of outcome by escaping the equation. I.e. if refund is possible for the Windows tax – they aren’t violating the law. And refund is delegated to OEMs who make it a nightmare to get. In the end MS comes out “clean” and Windows is still de facto bundled to computers all around.
So some successful cases against OEMs (like this one:
http://www.techworld.com.au/article/414500/lenovo_ordered_pay_1920_… )
can decrease their eagerness to play MS’s game and will benefit Linux over all.
Oh, please, give it a rest. OEMs have given up on selling Linux on the desktop. Nobody bought it. There is no “Windows tax” for 99.9999% of users. Only the fragment that want to install Linux.
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shmerl
Windows tax refers here to the mere fact of lack of choice of OSes during computer purchase. OEMs didn’t give up on agreements with MS which cause them not to sell blank computers or computers with other operating systems. And such kind of practice can’t be “given a rest” until it’s gone for good.
Edited 2012-08-29 02:38 UTC
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lucas_maximus
Nobody cares enough, except for the likes of your who think there is some great social injustice going because some people got more important things to worry about.
This is what I read on another forum:
There is and has been a lack of real impetus for anyone outside of those groups to BOTHER using Linux.
It’s really not that difficult or that user-unfriendly, and frankly I wouldn’t be surprised to see more widespread adoption if there arose an actual reason to use it.
For all people’s disagreements about DEs and such, I think the biggest barrier to using it is simply that there are other OSes that come with your computer and are perfectly fine.
I think it sums it up nicely, and this is what you don’t ever seem to get.
If you really want linux there are companies that cater to your needs, but instead you try to get a major company to sell something they have little to no interest in supporting … also Linux would most likely be nightmare for phone support staff.
Edited 2012-08-29 06:15 UTC
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shmerl
When “major company” serves as MS lackey for upholding their market monopoly I call it social injustice indeed and it’s hard to say who is guilty more – MS or some “major company” which is ready to oblige them.
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lucas_maximus
OMG, a key on a keyboard is social injustice? Are you serious?
You are quite clearly deluded if that is the case.
Never mind responding to my other points.
You know you could actually buy hardware from supporting companies that want to cater for your niche. Which is always constantly ignored.
I wonder if you would ask the same of Apple to sell Windows and Ubuntu with their Macs … because that has a “Macintosh key”.
Edited 2012-08-29 07:26 UTC
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shmerl
You already several times commented that even violating antitrust laws is acceptable if “no one cares”. So no point to talk about injustice really, since you think that when “no one cares” it’s not a problem.
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lucas_maximus
Anti Trust was years ago, it isn’t the 90s anymore.
You keep on bringing up different arguments to widen the goalposts.
At the end of the day, most people are happy with default operating system provided.
There are vendors that sell systems which do not have Windows and you are quite happy to buy from them, instead of bothering Dell, HP, Lenovo and others.
Vote with your wallet instead of getting your knickers in a twist about something you can never change.
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lucas_maximus
Sorry what utter rubbish.
At the end of the day you cannot defend your point of view to simple scrutiny therefore I am the person who is “ignorant” and “blind” … please!
You cannot defend you statements to simple scrutiny it is simple as that. You cannot defend them because you are talking nonsense and are unwilling to admit you are wrong because simply your response is emotional and not logical.
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2012-08-28 10:35 pm
tylerdurdenDELL sold Ubuntu machines for a while, so did HP (I think), there are some Linux-only vendors too.
Here is the thing; except for a few large institutional orders, nobody cared. There simply are not killer Linux apps for the desktop.
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2012-08-28 11:41 pm
Lennie
I think HP still sells Linux to businesses ( they would sell them anything they ask for probably ?)
I hear Dell still do, if you look really hard.
Also Dell is working on a Laptop for developers:
http://bartongeorge.net/tag/project-sputnik/
Based on the http://www.dell.com/us/p/xps-13-l321x/pd?~ck=mn&~ck=mn
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Lennie
There simply are not killer Linux apps for the desktop.
I don’t think it will happen, but it could still happen that the browser could be the killer app (think things like ChromeOS). More and more apps on mobile devices are already build with HTML5. As there is no other cross-platform toolkit for these devices.
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2012-08-29 12:23 am
leech*cough* Qt *cough* Well, at least it could have been, had Nokia not completely dropped the ball and went with Windows Phone, then got screwed by Microsoft even more for announcing a bit late in the game that WP7 devices won’t be upgradable to WP8.
Qt had so much awesome potential, especially since there are projects for both iOS support and Android support as well as Symbian and MeeGo/Maemo.
Sad days…
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2012-08-28 11:25 pm
smashItIf a distro, probably Ubuntu, got significant OEM backing it might gain some ground.
vista didn’t help linux
netbooks with linux preinstalled didn’t help linux
do you realy believe metro will do the trick?
i don’t….
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tomcat
If a distro, probably Ubuntu, got significant OEM backing it might gain some ground.
vista didn’t help linux
netbooks with linux preinstalled didn’t help linux
do you realy believe metro will do the trick?
i don’t….
The only thing that will help Linux is Android. And server deployment. Linux on the desktop is deader than … well … dead.
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shmerl
Yep. Windows tax is the strongest blocker for Linux adoption, and the hardest to break, since MS evades antitrust regulations by delegating this issue to OEMs and pretending that they aren’t involved.
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ze_jerkface
Dell installed Ubuntu on netbooks and laptops and then Ubuntu borked them with updates.
But let’s keep blaming OEMs even though they have made tons of money from pre-installing Linux on servers.
I blame HP.
2012-08-28 9:15 pm
I don’t think Linux will gain huge increase in market share because of Windows 8 faults. But some increase is definitely possible. Do you want to call it significant or not? That depends. It may be isn’t significant in market share percentage numbers, but on the other hand any mind share gain is significant. To compete with Windows Linux needs more exposure, and this is a good opportunity.
Edited 2012-08-28 21:16 UTC
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Bobthearch
The reason why people will potentially avoid Windows 8 is because it’s not like their ‘old’ Windows. Linux will be even more different and scary to those people.
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shmerl
For some – may be. For others – they simply might not like the new design, and have nothing against trying other alternatives, out of which Linux is the easiest (or cheapest) to try. So some amount of new Linux users is a very possible outcome from changes in Windows 8. I already heard from several people who use Windows 7 and dislike changes in Windows 8 that they are going to try Linux as an alternative.
Edited 2012-08-28 21:33 UTC
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tylerdurden
Most people use computers to get work done (or to have fun), not because they feel strongly about a specific GUI paradigm. In fact most of those computer users don’t even know what the term “GUI” stands for.
To think someone is going to get so worked out by having to press the windows key in order to access the start screen, as to say “Screw this! I’m installing linux” is borderline delusional. Really.
Plus I am sure 3rd parties will have a “start” button utilities for the desktop mode in no time.
What linux needs in order to get any significant foothold in the desktop space is an exclusive “killer app.” But I doubt that happen soon (if ever), since most of its community is concentrated in copying other platforms’ apps.
Edited 2012-08-28 22:54 UTC
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shmerl
I think you strongly underestimate the issue of ergonomics in the user interface. Interfaces which inhibit workflow, rather than helping it out can really strongly frustrate users (and for valid reasons). Since personal preferences can differ it can be to a degree subjective.
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tomcat
I think you strongly underestimate the issue of ergonomics in the user interface. Interfaces which inhibit workflow, rather than helping it out can really strongly frustrate users (and for valid reasons). Since personal preferences can differ it can be to a degree subjective.
No, he had it right. It’s borderline delusional thinking.
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bassbeast
Yes and for those people there is Classic Shell and Stardock’s Start8, both free, both can be found by typing “how to kill metro” into Google, and both take less than 3 minutes to give Win 8 a stanard Win 7 style UI.
So tell me friend, which do YOU think will be harder for a user? Typing a single sentence into Google, followed by running a single program, or learning an entirely new OS, with new ways of finding and installing programs, new names for everything you use (and some things will have no equivalent so you’ll have to deal with the mess that is Wine) and completely relearning how to get from point A to B?
The other guy nailed it, totally delusional.
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shmerl
It’s delusional to think that “one fits all” idea will work for “all”. Someone will always be upset. Balancing flexibility and functionality can satisfy enough users. Being too rigid or forcing stuff because “we know better how you are supposed to work” will upset enough users as well. Learn some design and ergonomics concepts if you wish.
Edited 2012-08-29 02:43 UTC
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ze_jerkface
It will upset users but no one will be forced from Windows 7.
Hell XP is still available on piratebay. It’s just Vista all over again where the vast majority will stick with what they have and Mac will gain a few points.
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2012-08-28 10:05 pm
Drumhellar For most users, the main difference is the start screen vs start menu, which is actually pretty minor.
2012-08-28 9:22 pm
This has to stop, and the only reason I’m linking to this nonsense is to make this very clear: Linux will not magically conquer the desktop or even make any significant gains because of Windows 8.
So why post it at all? Why not just ignore the nonsense from irrelevant sites like gogadgit?
I haven’t heard ANYONE seriously state that Windows 8 will magically increase Linux desktop share. In fact, this gogadgit article is so cluless it’s not even funny. Among other things it seems to be confused about servers and desktops. For example:
Developers, other web services increasingly working with Linux
This would only be a new development if you have lived under a rock in the desert for the last 10 years. The webservice and hosting market is dominated by Linux and have been for a long time.
That not only demonstrates a growing respect of the operating system, but it will make the transition to Linux easier for current Microsoft users
I REALLY don’t see how this could possible be the case.
2012-08-28 9:32 pm
I disagree with Thom: I think that a larger marketshare of Linux on the desktop WOULD be nice. Let’s just dream for a moment…and wake up in a world where Linux, OSX and Windows have marketshares of 30%, plus some percentages for Haiku, BSD, OS/2, Minix and Plan-9? What would that world look like?
– it would be less vulnerable to malware because it is more diverse
– there would be more focus on open standards so we can communicate, leading to less vendor-dependecy
– we would see more competition, more innovation and lower costs
IS it going to happen? I don’t think so, unfortunately. Two reasons:
1. most consumers and corporate clients are used to Windows and don’t care enough about computers to make a switch to another OS.
2. Microsoft and Apple are very strong, have money and political and legal contacts.
Despite all this headwind, I do think that Ubuntu will grow, as the most ‘handholding’ Linux on the market. Which is a good thing 🙂
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2012-08-28 9:41 pm
Thom HolwerdaI disagree with Thom: I think that a larger marketshare of Linux on the desktop WOULD be nice.
I don’t think you understood the blurb here. I didn’t say I would not want it to happen – I’m saying it simply won’t happen (in light of Windows 8, at least).
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Lennie
Would preinstalled on 5% of the World’s PCs be a good start ? Have a look at what I mentioned here:
http://www.osnews.com/permalink?532846
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shmerl
Linux adoption is surely generally underrated:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_adoption#Measuring_desktop_adopt…
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lucas_maximus
There is no accurate way of measuring it and we all know it is low, or you wouldn’t be fighting tooth and nail about the vendors.
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shmerl
It’s lower than it can be without imposed barriers. However the reason to oppose injustice is not in numbers, but in the injustice itself. You obviously have hard time comprehending it.
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lucas_maximus
What nonsense are you talking about?
A computer is a tool. Windows machines are sold as advertised, an x86 computer with Windows pre-installed. The system is sold as advertised.
There is no injustice, no unfairness. Those who want an alternative usually buy a Macintosh.
As If you wanted a machine with Desktop Linux pre-installed there are options available.
I dunno where this injustice you speak of is coming from.
Like it or not a market is dictated by supply and demand.
As I keep on telling you, vote with you wallet. If you want it preinstalled or with no OS on a system, then give your money to a company which sells their hardware
with those options. There is nothing preventing you or anyone else from doing this.
What you are doing is whining and nothing else.
Edited 2012-08-29 10:42 UTC
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shmerl
What nonsense are you talking about?
I’ll just repeat once again for you – you won’t understand. For you any ethical problems are “nonsense”.
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lucas_maximus
I didn’t say that.
I am saying you make things which aren’t ethical issues, ethical. Therefore because you started with the wrong premise it is nonsense.
Is that clear enough for you?
The fact is you want to make it sound like an ethical issue to drum up support when it really is just someone selling a computer with an operating system on it.
Edited 2012-08-29 17:58 UTC
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2012-08-29 5:12 pm
sbenitezbAll distros should agree on an “activation” method to send data to a common server (with little information) to have a reliable measure of how many desktops are Linux based.
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bassbeast
Oh Lord, when I see puppies like this that don’t know their history….sigh. C’mon over here son, pull up a chair and let grandpa give you a little history lesson..
<p>Ya see once upon a time it was JUST like that, you had DOS and Windows, GEM and DR-DOS, you had Commodore and Atari and Apple and probably a half a dozen more (Tandy) that I’m forgetting…know what it was like? It SUCKED, that’s what it was like! Nothing worked with anything! Printers, modems, software, it was all a big giant mess with nothing working unless you bought it straight from the OEM who gouged because they knew they were the only ones you could count on to get working stuff.</p>
So ya see kid, it wasn’t some deep dark conspiracy that led to Windows taking over, it was cloners cranking out cheap PC compatibles that let everyone go “Hallelujah my fricking printer works! My modem works on my office AND my home machine! Oh joy of joys, what a beautiful day!” and THAT is how we got where we are today child.
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bassbeast
But y’all missed the point which was it was a tower of Babel! Things that are so simple you don’t even think about them, like taking a file from home, printing it at school or vice versa? Practically impossible!
Like it or hate it MSFT and the cloners did at least bring us some basic standards that now benefit us all. Before you couldn’t even buy things like memory without it being a total crapshoot (anybody remember Compaq RAM?) and NOTHING that wasn’t made by the same manufacturer, and sometimes not even then, talked to each other. Apple couldn’t read an IBM floppy, Commodore couldn’t read Apple, nobody could read ANYTHING because nothing was compatible with anybody else’s stuff!
And it is THIS reason why having a half a dozen OSes would be bad, because everyone would have their own formats jockeying for dominance and we’d be right back to where we were then, with no idea what is gonna work and what isn’t, or what is gonna talk to what.
Of course it looks like in the future Linux may end up shut out, I’m already seeing ExFAT flash sticks and Apple is pushing H.26x which is a patent trolls wet dream, but at least we can exchange files with each other and a web page is a web page. Or did everybody forget that back then you couldn’t even count on that, because both Netscape and MSFT supported different proprietary tags, so even web pages were different or even broken if you didn’t run the “right” browser!
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2012-08-31 9:39 am
Yoko_TBut y’all missed the point which was it was a tower of Babel! Things that are so simple you don’t even think about them, like taking a file from home, printing it at school or vice versa? Practically impossible!
Like it or hate it MSFT and the cloners did at least bring us some basic standards that now benefit us all. Before you couldn’t even buy things like memory without it being a total crapshoot (anybody remember Compaq RAM?) and NOTHING that wasn’t made by the same manufacturer, and sometimes not even then, talked to each other. Apple couldn’t read an IBM floppy, Commodore couldn’t read Apple, nobody could read ANYTHING because nothing was compatible with anybody else’s stuff!
And it is THIS reason why having a half a dozen OSes would be bad, because everyone would have their own formats jockeying for dominance and we’d be right back to where we were then, with no idea what is gonna work and what isn’t, or what is gonna talk to what.
Of course it looks like in the future Linux may end up shut out, I’m already seeing ExFAT flash sticks and Apple is pushing H.26x which is a patent trolls wet dream, but at least we can exchange files with each other and a web page is a web page. Or did everybody forget that back then you couldn’t even count on that, because both Netscape and MSFT supported different proprietary tags, so even web pages were different or even broken if you didn’t run the “right” browser!
Dude, those 64GB and 128GB USB Flash drives are *NOT* ExFAT formatted flash sticks.
They’re Fat32. I know. I have a PNY 64GB and a 128GB from another maker. Neither was formatted as ExFAT.
2012-08-28 9:36 pm
… is not relevant. So long as there are sufficient developers to create a desktop that suits my needs, I couldn’t care less what the other 99% of the planet are using. If they are happy with Windows or OSX, it does not prevent me from being happy with gnu/linux + Xfce.
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2012-08-28 11:03 pm
ephracisI bet.
More users and especially mainstream users will kill Linux for current users.
The development will move the focus. Enthusiasts and hardcore users will be ditched for the average consumer. Your interests will be set aside. New technologies will evolve for locking up your application ecosystem. Innovation will move to law interpretation and jury convincing. Popularity is a bitch.
😉
(The above smiley is an indicator meant to stop Poe’s Law.)
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2012-08-29 3:10 am
fossilMore users and especially mainstream users will kill Linux for current users.
The development will move the focus. Enthusiasts and hardcore users will be ditched for the average consumer. Your interests will be set aside.
Somehow, I doubt that will happed with Slackware, Gentoo, or the BSDs. YMMV 😉
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2012-08-28 9:38 pm
For the general public, Linux desktop distro’s are getting better. However to the novice, Linux distro’s still have a steep learning curve that resembles a small mountain when compared to that of the start button.
I’d rather see Linux distro’s concentrate on catering to those who appreciate it’s creative solutions in doing things differently (and patience for it’s driver issues due to lack of OEM support).
As for it being the next big thing. Android is doing fairly well in mobile. Just a shame, most of those who use it don’t realise it’s Linux based.
Edited 2012-08-28 21:46 UTC
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2012-08-28 9:51 pm
amadensorThe learning curve from zero (first time touching a computer) is not that much different. When the schools start teaching concepts, rather than “push the button right there, and good luck if they ever move it” it will even out at least somewhat.
Mac being significant in the marketplace is good, because now people realize than things can be done with more than one UI. Maybe that can spread.
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2012-08-28 10:03 pm
Yehppael… now people realize than things can be done with more than one UI.
That! That is exactly it. Apple is showing people a different UI, but so does Windows 8.
Linux share won’t increase by much, but it WILL increase. What it needs right now is a little popularity boost to remind people, there are other options as well.
There is ONE thing that everyone seems to keep on forgetting. We’re talking about market share, but the market size right now is considerably larger than it was 5-6 years ago.
Honestly though, I really don’t care. I’d rather have a solid Fedora or Slackware than a popular Ubuntu.
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ze_jerkface
Are there going to be classes on:
1. How to fix broken updates
2. How to install from a ppa just to get the latest version of a browser or word processor
3. How to see if a sound card is working by using the command line (this is actually what Ubuntu expects users to do)
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2012-08-29 1:52 pm
r_a_tripAre there going to be classes on:
1. How to fix broken updates
2. How to install from a ppa just to get the latest version of a browser or word processor
3. How to see if a sound card is working by using the command line (this is actually what Ubuntu expects users to do)
There is practically no need for classes. If a power user willingly makes the switch, s/he will find out how to do all that stuff on their own. That is why we call them power users.
When it is the casual user who is being switched, there is no need to. People who are afraid of mucking things up, don’t go on an updating rampage. They leave the updating to their trusted resident geek. So there will not be any clammoring for PPA’s, or teeth gnashing over updates or mucking with sound cards. This is left to their friendly Linux geek.
But let’s keep trotting out the arguments about the mythical average user. It is a delightful creature. It has all the wants and needs of a power user, yet strangely lacks any computing prowess whatsoever.
P.S. pavucontrol is a nice graphical tool to manage your sound in- and output.
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CodeAndSyntax
learning curve from zero (first time touching a computer), agreed isn’t that much different.
I was thinking more from those who might migrate away from Win 7 to Linux if they’re that dissatisfied with Win 8, which I’d doubt will happen as the tablet market is adding an extra dynamic and Win 8 has been created specifically to cater for it.
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Lennie
Actually, just now I was watching this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2LGmY796wQ#t=18m30s
Where Mark Shuttleworth claims this:
“If you know Windows and you confronted with a new desktop, Windows is the easiest. Ubuntu is the second easiest and then Mac OS.”
“And if you know Mac OS, it is easier to switch to Ubuntu than to Windows”
“Next year 5% of the world’s PCs will ship Ubuntu preinstalled”
Edited 2012-08-29 00:26 UTC
2012-08-28 9:54 pm
Linux will not magically conquer the desktop or even make any significant gains because of Windows 8.
Does that mean this is the year of the Haiku desktop?
All joking aside, these articles always manage to ignore Apple’s stuff, which already has a significant mindshare, even among Windows users. Macs are also competitively priced if you pick one up towards the beginning of their product cycle, which many of their systems are at.
As for me, Windows 8 RTM just hit my school’s MSDN account, so I’ll be upgrading tonight.
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2012-08-28 10:03 pm
nej_simonMacs are nice (if you disregard that they are made by a patent troll
but they are still only competing in the premium segment. You can get a capable laptop with windows for not very much these days but a Mac will always cost a lot of money. More than a lot of people are willing to pay. -
WorknMan
[qAll joking aside, these articles always manage to ignore Apple’s stuff, which already has a significant mindshare, even among Windows users. Macs are also competitively priced if you pick one up towards the beginning of their product cycle, which many of their systems are at. [/q]
Yeah, I think anybody who doesn’t want to upgrade to Windows 8 and doesn’t want to stick with Windows 7 will probably be looking at Macs, especially if they have iOS devices.
As for Linux, I think Steam for Linux will do more for desktop Linux adoption than Windows 8 ever will.
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Drumhellar
Steam might, but Quake 3 didn’t, nor did the other major games released for Linux via retail in the same time frame, and during that time frame there were several.
Granted, Linux is much, much more polished now, but even then Linux has to do something significant and obvious to set itself apart.
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Lennie
Was just typing this comment:
http://www.osnews.com/permalink?532846
If you watch the video I think Mark show they do tries to set themselves apart.
Edited 2012-08-29 00:32 UTC
2012-08-28 9:55 pm
There are still some serious issues with Linux on consumer PCs. For example there are no good way to distribute a driver along with some hardware. On Windows and OSX you would just install the bundled driver, but you can’t do that on Linux since it lacks a stable kernel ABI. So if your new device is not supported out of the box on your Linux system you’ll have to compile your own module that may or may not compile against your kernel, try to get a newer kernel build to work and hope that there are no regressions or simply wait for the next release of your distribution. Of course, if the hardware is really new and the company behind it isn’t very open source-friendly it might take longer than that before a driver is available in a stable kernel.
Linux is a great OS for geeks but as long as issues like this exist it will not be able to compete with windows for consumer PCs.
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shmerl
Windows drivers might not work with later versions of Windows the same way. I see no benefit in Windows drivers over any other platform. If the driver is closed, it all boils down to whether the hardware manufacturer is going to release driver updates for recent versions of some OSes, no matter Windows or Linux and etc. Otherwise – try your luck with some Windows XP drivers on Windows 7 or other way around.
Edited 2012-08-28 22:01 UTC
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nej_simon
That’s a different issue. Windows might have problems with older hardware if the company behind the it hasn’t bothered releasing an updated driver and the driver wasn’t included in the new windows release. But Linux on the other hand has problems with new hardware. What matters most? New versions of windows are mostly backward compatible with old versions anyway. The only time I tried a XP driver on Windows 7 (for an old sound card) it actually installed without issues (athough it forced me to use a 32 bit version of windows 7).
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shmerl
Well, “mostly” is not any worse than mostly on Linux. In essence – incompatibilities can happen and will happen, unless manufacturers release drivers in a timely fashion. And new hardware is more likely to have drivers updated even for Linux, rather than expecting some vendor to keep updating drivers for older hardware for a new kernel (good example – GPUs).
So I don’t see how Windows is any better here. The only argument one can make if there are hardware manufacturers who release Windows only drivers. But that always can be an issue. So if you target Linux, just choose those vendors who release drivers for Linux for their new hardware and support them for new kernels long enough.
Edited 2012-08-28 23:56 UTC
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lucas_maximus
Windows is miles better.
Firstly within the life time of Windows 7, a binary driver that was written in 2009 will work in 2020. Even some Windows 2000 drivers work with Windows XP.
Also While Linux may have more supported hardware devices, a lot of the support is incomplete.
A lot of people say, they should release the driver as Open Source. This is simply no possible especially with the nvidia driver because the nvidia driver replaces huge parts of X and other things such as DRI so that you can get decent 3D performance. The AMD/ATi open source drivers are miles behind in hardware support and performance, and everyone says they have been “getting there for years”.
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shmerl
a binary driver that was written in 2009 will work in 2020
Just because Windows is so innovative that it gets updated once in 10 years? Yeah, that’s called “miles better”.
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ze_jerkface
You can improve an operating system while maintaining backwards compatibility. The (original) PS3 could play PS2 games and having that compatibility didn’t slow it down.
Linus and Greg KH full of shit when it comes to the unstable abi. They want everyone to believe that continually breaking stuff is needed to make Linux better. Windows and OS/X have progressed without randomly breaking drivers, Linux could too but the guy at the top hates binary drivers on an emotional level.
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lucas_maximus
Nope, it just the ABI doesn’t break within the same OS version.
Win 7 driver in 2009 will work with Win 7 fully patched in 2020.
Windows XP driver from 2001 will work with Windows XP fully patched now.
Edited 2012-08-29 11:07 UTC
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Valhalla
Firstly within the life time of Windows 7, a binary driver that was written in 2009 will work in 2020.
Because the driver infrastructure won’t recieve any major changes during Windows 7’s lifetime, that will be reserved for Windows ‘X’ which will be released somewhere between now and 2020, which will require new drivers for everything.
And as the Windows drivers are proprietary binaries which only the hardware vendors can modify and recompile against the new driver infrastructure they will selectively support it with drivers for the latest and greatest, rendering lots of perfectly working hardware useless should you upgrade to the new Windows ‘X’.
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lucas_maximus
Actually that isn’t true, if you notice Microsoft have a lot of their own drivers for older hardware.
For example a Rage 128 card which is no longer supported by ATi the drivers exist as part of the Windows Vista and Windows 7 install. I doubt you can even get the driver from the AMD website now.
Very very old hardware maynot be supported, but I doubt it’s still supported in Linux either.
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ze_jerkface
Compare to Linux where:
Manufacturers create barebones/poor performing drivers just to show a modicum of support and leave out features like ink level monitoring or don’t update them to the latest standards.
Drivers don’t get created at all due to spite/small market or are released a year after the Windows driver.
Contrary to popular belief a driver in the tree is not guaranteed to be maintained forever. Drivers in the tree can be accidentally broken or intentionally deprecated. There is a shortage of driver developers in the open source world so your device can be left borked for good.
I’ve seen the results of Linus’ do it my way or get fucked attitude. No thanks, I’ll stick with Windows where manufacturers are treated with respect and can choose to create open source or binary drivers and expect them to work for the life of the OS.
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Valhalla
Manufacturers create barebones/poor performing drivers just to show a modicum of support and leave out features like ink level monitoring or don’t update them to the latest standards.
Actually I don’t know if there is some ink monitoring capacity in the driver for my brother dcp-j125 printer but really I couldn’t care less, there’s a display on the printer which warns (with sound) when one of the ink patrons are running short. I wouldn’t run some constant monitoring crap in the tray even if it is available.
So it seems that by barebones you mean drivers which doesn’t come with a shitload of crap programs placing themselves in autorun like on Windows then yes, I’m f***ing glad I have barebone drivers.
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ze_jerkface
… but you can’t do that on Linux since it lacks a stable kernel ABI.
Linux is a great OS for geeks but as long as issues like this exist it will not be able to compete with windows for consumer PCs.
This debate has been raging for over a decade.
The “screw what manufacturers want” side has clearly won, Linux has had a whopping 0% increase on the desktop from 10 years ago and everyone still complains about video drivers.
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Valhalla
The “screw what manufacturers want” side has clearly won, Linux has had a whopping 0% increase on the desktop from 10 years ago and everyone still complains about video drivers.
Hah, what bullshit, Linux has gained very little on the desktop but that has nothing to do with lack of proprietary video drivers.
It HAS proprietary video drivers, NVidia keeps their Linux drivers up to spec with the Windows drivers, not because they want to cater to Linux desktop user needs but because Linux is HUGE in 3D/SFX and absolutely dominant in HPC and these are the markets discrete GPU vendors on Linux are catering for.
Discrete graphics from NVidia is pretty much the only holdout there is anymore, and discrete graphics is obviously being obsoleted on the desktop favour of gpgpu solutions like the offerings from Intel and AMD (fully open source offerings) for anyone but hardcore gamers and professionals in 3D/CAD.
So yes, ‘screw proprietary drivers’ side is definately winning.
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ze_jerkface
Hah, what bullshit, Linux has gained very little on the desktop but that has nothing to do with lack of proprietary video drivers.
I’m not talking about just video drivers.
The userspace api came out in 2007 which was way too late.
It’s hard to say which factor sunk Linux on the desktop the most but the middle finger to hardware manufacturers didn’t help. Linux needed to be amicable to third parties of all types when there was more demand for an alternative. As for winning I don’t see how locked down Android devices with drivers useless to other devices is a win. Linux easily could have taken more share if it wasn’t the stubborn open source nerd’s OS. But that’s what Linus wanted and he didn’t care if Windows kept the desktop market.
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Valhalla
I’m not talking about just video drivers.
What drivers are you talking about then, specifically?
It’s hard to say which factor sunk Linux on the desktop the most but the middle finger to hardware manufacturers didn’t help.
Again what is this problem with hardware compability you are claiming exists?
As for winning I don’t see how locked down Android devices with drivers useless to other devices is a win.
What does the extremely limited amount of drivers in Android have to do with Linux open source driver availability at large (which is fantastic)?
But that’s what Linus wanted and he didn’t care if Windows kept the desktop market.
Drivers are not holding Linux back, it could have every driver in existance and there still wouldn’t be any real incentive for the average computer user to leave Windows on the desktop.
Not even Apple which has done massive advertising and product placement (apple logo visible in every laptop in every tv show), shiny design, being hip, has been able to make a real dent in Microsoft’s desktop dominance. And they certainly have no driver problems either given that they only support their own very meagre hardware spectrum.
2012-08-28 10:10 pm
‘Linux’ is actually more of a threat because of Win8 because of Win8’s aim: a unified interface between mobile and desktop platforms.
The thing is, Windows 8 is making ARM potentially viable moving forward in the Desktop and *Book market sectors… which means it could open a door for Android based systems to compete in this space, and the general public is far more familiar with Android than it is with Windows 8. Microsoft’s only real advantage becomes the legacy applications it’s trying so hard to hide behind a curtain.
Android also has support from LOTS of developers, and big names in the desktop gaming industry like Valve and Activision/Blizzard are threatening (my bet is it’s an empty threat at this point, but regardless) to defect to supporting Linux based systems moving forward.
And what has really held Linux back in the home desktop sector? Ok, lots of things – a lack of broad standardization, dependency hell, unified application management generally stinks, and solving any real problem means a lot of googling and tinkering in the console – which, by the way – is just as dangerous for average joe as asking him to tinker around in the registry… but the #1 reason is because it hasn’t seen major support from games developers. I mean, after all, average Joe put up with way worse for Windows 95 pretty much just so they could use the programs they wanted and play the games they wanted.
If linux gets a real level of support from the gaming industry *at the expense of Windows* – IE There’s a copy for, say, Ubuntu and Windows 7, but not Windows 8, and future versions of DirectX go largely unsupported because they’re Win8 exclusive? That means Wine gets to stop chasing a moving target, and 90%+ compatibility with all windows software becomes achievable.
2012-08-28 10:30 pm
Some people are really deluding themselves into thinking the main reason people used windows was the “Start” button. In the big scheme of things moving to a completely different software platform (e.g. from Windows 7 and earlier to Linux) requires orders of magnitude more effort than moving from Aero to Metro (or whatever it is called).
Besides Linux on the desktop is already a fragmented mess, with its own set of ridiculous and arbitrary shifts in GUI on what seems a random basis. Redhat understood this, and they are actually doing great. It is a great platform for development though, and I actually see the diversity of Linux as an asset from my own personal computing needs. Thing is, most people don’t use their computer to develop or deploy infrastructure…
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Valhalla
Some people are really deluding themselves into thinking the main reason people used windows was the “Start” button.
I certainly agree in that I don’t think ‘Metro’ will in any way affect Linux uptake. Windows come installed on basically every machine out there and it is a good choice for most computer users out there as it is simple enough to use.
Besides Linux on the desktop is already a fragmented mess,
Here I disagree (although you later descibe it as an asset aswell), it’s certainly fragmented but that doesn’t make it a mess. It means it has great flexibility and that there is no one-size-fits-all-wether-you-like-it-or-not approach as with Windows and OSX.
For the vast amount of people I think there’s an obvious preference for a ready-made solution and that means things like Windows and OSX will continue to appeal to the masses (although it can backfire as seen with the Metro controversy), Ubuntu is the most popular Linux distribution and it tries to mimic this approach, to some success.
So no, I don’t see Linux ever going big on the desktop, but then again I don’t see why it has to. It has a strong ecosystem consisting of lots of developers/tinkerers, it doesn’t need to go mainstream on the desktop.
I like Linux for the flexibility it has which allows me to tailor my system to perfectly accomodate my needs and preferences, making me work alot faster and with more ease than I’ve ever done using a generic desktop solution.
I like that the system is extremely fast and low on resource usage as that allows me to do more with the applications that I run.
As a developer I love how as a programmer I’m extremely well catered for.
I like how the rest of the Linux users I encounter in the ‘community’ are has an overall high technical knowledge from which I constantly learn and improve.
And I like the speed with which it is being developed and I find it incredible that it doesn’t cost me a red penny to enjoy all these improvements.
These are things 99% of the computer populace could care less about, so things like this will never ‘sell’ Linux to the masses. But again that’s fine.
Windows can have the desktop masses, and I’m certain it will, Metro or no Metro.
This is why I find it quite hilarious seeing how guys like ze_jerkface and lucas maximus always having this zelous need to attack Linux, what are they afraid of?
Microsoft will always be there to provide you with Windows, increasingly locked-in perhaps but still you will have your fix and Microsoft will get your money.
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PieterGen
I like how the rest of the Linux users I encounter in the ‘community’ are has an overall high technical knowledge from which I constantly learn and improve. And I like the speed with which it is being developed
Agree. Compare just for fun the Archlinux Wiki to Microsoft’s and Apple’s websites. The Archlinux Wiki gives you in-depth, super detailed technical information, plus an active forum. Microsoft and Apple give you shiny websites and hollow phrases like “it just works” or “it makes life easier”.
2012-08-28 10:45 pm
If I had to pick an OS to put my brazilian reais (R$) on, I would give Android a chance in the desktop.
Intel is pushing the X86 version, it has a solid base, can work with mouse (better than Win8 on my experience) and is nice and have tons of apps already (sure, must have to be ported to X86 first).
And hey, guess what? It DOES run Linux on the bottom level!
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2012-08-29 11:55 pm
ricegfMicrosoft owns the desktop with Windows, and is desperately trying to gain a little traction in mobile – with little success thus far.
Google shares the mobile space with Apple – twice their phone share and half their tablet share – and is starting to ship in laptops (and TVs and cameras and cars and…)
So, yes – while Gnu/Linux will probably not take off on the desktop due to Windows 8, Android / Linux just might.
And how ironic would it be if Microsoft achieved their dream of a unified OS for all devices…through patent taxes on Android? 😀
2012-08-28 11:12 pm
…I actually 100% agree with Thom on this one…
I love Linux, don’t get me wrong (I love the OS X desktop better BTW, but that’s another story) and I prefer Ubuntu to Win 7 more than you can imagine, but I am not part of the mainstream, I’m part of this community and as such, the way I use computer tends to be different.
I don’t need or use Office, but I can see why the general public doesn’t go near OpenOffice (sorry).
I don’t use Photoshop, but I can see why the general public doesn’t go near Gimp either.
and so on…
Having said that, Linux shouldn’t be trying to copy MS or Apple (and in a LOT of areas, they don’t), but they should be building their own uniquie “non Office” suite and pushing that (maybe they do and I missed it). !Office 🙂 See iWorks for the Apple as an example. It’s not the most successful and isn’t about to dethrone Office any time soon, but it’s a great alt. to Office on the Mac.
2012-08-28 11:14 pm
For years the community has striven for Linux to become the desktop of choice. Everything was alright until Canonical guys and the GNOME Community made really sure that no one uses it, with the births of abortions like Unity and GNOME Shell.
2012-08-28 11:32 pm
First – this scheme did not worked when Vista arrived.
And the second thought – those guys at GNOME and at Canonical made a lot of effort to make GNOME3, Ubuntu and Windows 8 indistinguishable from each other.
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Yoko_T
First – this scheme did not worked when Vista arrived.
And the second thought – those guys at GNOME and at Canonical made a lot of effort to make GNOME3, Ubuntu and Windows 8 indistinguishable from each other.
Yep. Crap is as Crap does.
2012-08-28 11:50 pm
Of Flop Operating systems. Remember Windows 98 (Original),Windows ME,and recently, Vista? Linux has not overtaken Windows desktop space then, nor will do so in the near future, at least as long as Gnome3, or Unity are your default desktops.
2012-08-29 12:10 am
This is so rediculous it’s not even funny anymore.
To use GNU/Linux – like any OS other than the one you’re actually using – you need to change your mindset first. Otherwise people tend to have stupid and unrealistic expectations, like “<redneck mode on>I want my Photoshop to run on this darn thing! <redneck mode off>”.
So … opportunity? not really. Some may convert and some may only switch. Does it matter? not really. Do FLOSS world need people seeking Photoshop under – say – Linux? not really.
As a sidenote I should mention I’m really tired hearing about this “alternative to” thing over and over again. Linux is not an alternative to Windows. And guess what: Windows IS NOT AN ALTERNATIVE to Linux. Not even an inch. In fact, I feel like dancing with my leg broken when I use Windows. There are no reasonable base system tools, no reasonable system management, etc, etc. I don’t care if Windows users switch to FLOSS. I do care for people who convert to other FLOSS just because they care for their own freedom, openness of the IT world and world as a whole. Why should I care about choices of people who are willing to give their own freedom away for the sake of some stupid, temporary comfort or mythical – but not realistic – ease of use, which comes down to “dumb this s#@$ down in hope they can figure it out”.
Ugh, sorry for being so irritating [possibly], but someone has to say it.
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Lennie
Actually, more than a year ago I installed the then current version of Photoshop (CS5) on WINE and it works just fine.
Here is an image of someone running it that was posted on the web:
http://striderlance.com/repository/images/photoshopcs5.png
2012-08-29 12:17 am
The Windows PC benefits from enormous economies of scale in production, marketing and sales. Talk of the Microsoft Tax is lunatic.
Damn near everything in FOSS is ported to Windows or begins as a native Windows app. There has never been a compelling reason to migrate.
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2012-08-29 12:25 am
And once again, it begins, is this going to be a tri-annual festival of over optimism and no real change? Opportunity for Linux, puleaze…
Edited 2012-08-29 00:26 UTC
2012-08-29 12:33 am
Do we have to have these perennial discussions about how impending OS releases will impact the future of Linux?!? Desktop Linux is dead. Well, not precisely dead, but mostly dead (in the Princess Bride sense). There are people that use it on the desktop, I actually like Linux, it has VALUE, but that’s a different calculation than saying it will have anything more than fractional adoption by real human beings. Want real growth? Focus on killer apps that only Linux delivers. Focus on Android tablet distribution. That’s where the real growth is. Anything else is just not going to happen.
2012-08-29 12:50 am
Opportunity can happen when vendors will bundle a Linux distribution in the same manner as a Microsoft Windows. When those vendors will step up above Microsoft threatening to raise the Windows Tax by providing consumers the choice of their favourite systems, then yes, that will be a Linux distribution opportunity as long vendors provide equal or better parities (I look at you Asus, Acer to name a few).
2012-08-29 1:43 am
Did Windows ME or Vista result in Linux adoption? It did not.
Why would anyone who already owns a computer change it to Linux? We have solid evidence that people are willing to run old Microsoft operating systems like Windows XP for more than 10 years.
Windows 7 is popular and it’s going to be supported for quite a long time. Applications and games will target it. There will be no reason at all for users who already have Windows 7 to use Linux.
2012-08-29 1:58 am
While I agree with the general assessment that this version of Windows isn’t going to help Linux adoption (just as Vista and XP didn’t help) I have to call BS on this statement: “The desktop is and always has been irrelevant to Linux.”
Linux originally got its start on the desktop and it is hardly irrelevant, at least not to the millions of people who use it. Dell and Valve are certainly putting their money on desktop Linux.
2012-08-29 3:10 am
Windows 8 an opportunity for Linux?
That’s fighting the last war. In present times, Linux is beating Windows in the markets that are growing and matter, like smartphones.
Windows has lost out on tablets, too.
Microsoft understands this and is running scared. They’ve crapped up the Windows UI in a desperate attempt to stay relevant, they’ve dropped upgrade fees to only $40, and they betrayed their OEMs by unveiling their own tablet.
Microsoft was not a good steward of the desktop/laptop. Not sorry to see ya go, guys.
2012-08-29 3:41 am
Yeah, this is getting old. Another year, yet another shitty new Windows release, same old “year of Linux on the desktop” shit. The reality is, Linux is in an even worse position to “take over” Windows than it was in the Vista days. Why? GNOME 3. It’s every bit of a turd as Metro (sorry, Microsoft–it’s still Metro to me), and most of the major Linux distros are switching to it (the ones that haven’t already). Those ones that use Cinnamon… well, it’s a good idea in theory, but I can’t be the only one who tried it and was seriously disappointed. It’s just woefully incomplete. Hopefully this changes soon, but last time I checked it just wasn’t worth using.
2006 was the year of Linux on *my* desktop, and it’s going to remain that way.
2011 was the year of Linux in my pocket (Android cell phone), and that won’t be changing any time soon either.
There will be no “year of Linux on the desktop.” Use it on your own machines, hell, even recommend it to other people if you want and don’t mind inevitably having to help solve computer problems and hear complaints because “it’s not just like Windows”–the claim that there’s going to be some kind of magic, mystical year that Linux is just going to explode in is extremely annoying. Really, that would be a bad thing–because it would undoubtedly mark “the year of malware on the Linux desktop.” Maybe not nearly to the same extent as Microsoft’s horribly-designed insecure family of operating systems, but it would inevitably start to become a larger problem.
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ze_jerkface
as Microsoft’s horribly-designed insecure family of operating systems, but it would inevitably start to become a larger problem.
This is getting old too.
Yes Microsoft at one point did not prioritize security.
But when it comes to web servers you are more likely to be hacked running Linux thanks to php exploits. Windows has malware problems but if you took away the clueless users the rate would drop.
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2012-08-29 5:20 am
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UltraZelda64
This is getting old too.
Yes it is, but so is going out and seeing nearly brand-new machines running the “latest and greatest” versions of Windows completely owned with malware of all kinds. So much for the forced PITA that was UAC, eh?
So yes, the “Windows is insecure” comments are getting old (I mean, come on–it’s going to be going on fucking 2013), but it’s still as true as it always has been, all the way up to Windows 7–and no doubt Windows 8 once Microsoft releases it into the wild.
I am still frequently reminded of this problem when I see other people’s systems, whether I like it or not… and it would be nice if that wasn’t the case. But it still is.
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lucas_maximus
Sorry but the only easy way for a Modern Windows machine to get infected is to run an executable from an untrusted source as Administrator.
Believe it or not this would work perfectly fine on Linux and MacOSX.
Windows is not insecure, hasn’t been since Windows XP SP2.
UAC is not different than the sudo command.
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UltraZelda64
I’m no fan of “sudo” either. But at least it makes you THINK for a second about what you’re doing, since it requires you to at least type *something*. Unfortunately it’s the user’s own password (how very difficult to guess…). A separate password–the root password–would be a better safeguard. I prefer logging in as root myself when needed, and that’s what I do; I’m not a fan of the method Ubuntu popularized, even if sudo does supposedly grant you fewer rights than root.
By comparison, what was Windows typically do?
“Do you want to allow this program to do this? Yes/No, OK/Cancel, whatever”
Microsoft has already trained its users/customers to “just click OK or Yes” if you want to do something without errors, and magically it works with no trouble. Extending this bad train of thought to granting administrative privileges is defeating the whole damn purpose of separating administrator from limited users, and just plain dumb on Microsoft’s part. This bad and potentially disastrous behavior is deeply ingrained deep in Microsoft’s users’ skulls, and that behavior is exactly what Microsoft is relying on to escalate a Windows user to administrative privileges. Making it annoying just to force application developers into coding user separation is just that: an annoyance that, because of the way it’s implemented, doesn’t solve a damn thing. Just a worthless annoyance that might catch a somewhat more more experienced user, but those are the people who are likely to have minimal trouble anyway.
And don’t even waste your time mentioning that “it’s only that way for users designated as administrators–limited users have to type in a password.” Last I checked, the first account is an administrator by default (and has to be, because Microsoft disables the “real” Administrator account by default), and NO ONE I have ever seen runs as a limited user–let alone knows what an “administrator” even is.
UAC is a joke.
But enough about that… this discussion is getting way off topic. I don’t really give a rat’s ass in the end because I am not a Windows user, but I do still get annoyed seeing the latest Windows operating systems royally infected even six years after I jumped ship, after Microsoft continually claims “the most secure version of Windows ever” with every release they put out to date. It’d be nice if Microsoft would provide a *real* fix, but I won’t hold my breath on it. And without locking every other OS but their own out. [*cough* hardware-forced “Secure Boot” and the supposed “Trusted Computing” nonsense *cough*]
Edited 2012-08-29 08:47 UTC
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ze_jerkface
Just a worthless annoyance that might catch a somewhat more more experienced user, but those are the people who are likely to have minimal trouble anyway.
Uh no it is not a worthless annoyance when it stops a drive-by attack. When someone is just visiting kittens.ru looking for photos and UAC pops up they are unlikely to hit OK.
but I do still get annoyed seeing the latest Windows operating systems royally infected even six years after I jumped ship
You seem to be one of those people who think that the Linux kernel provides superior protection by not being NT. That was a baseless belief in 2005 but with Android it has been completely shattered:
http://www.bgr.com/2012/08/17/android-malware-q2-2012-study/
Since Wp7 has less malware than Android it becomes hard to believe that malware is the direct result of Microsoft being unable to create a secure system.
The dancing pigs problem isn’t the fault of Windows and wouldn’t be solved by requiring a password. Switching everyone to Linux wouldn’t solve it either.
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UltraZelda64
Uh no it is not a worthless annoyance when it stops a drive-by attack. When someone is just visiting kittens.ru looking for photos and UAC pops up they are unlikely to hit OK.
Clearly it’s not stopping these drive-by attacks too well, otherwise I would have nothing to be bitching about.
You seem to be one of those people who think that the Linux kernel provides superior protection by not being NT.
I don’t recall making such a claim. In fact, aside from using the term “Linux” in a generic sense meaning “Linux distribution,” I don’t even know what the hell you’re talking about; sudo is certainly not a feature of the kernel. Sure, I mentioned that I run Linux (again, as in an OS with the Linux kernel) now and that I no longer run Windows, but my opinion is more like this: Linux is not special in any major way compared to most other common operating systems, server or desktop. UNIX, BSD, Linux, whatever–they all tend to be quite adequate as far as I can see.
Hell, even Mac OS X is decent to an extent, although Apple’s quest to simplify things for their users at the expense is finally starting to bite them in the ass (sounds a lot like a certain monopolistic U.S. technology company, doesn’t it?). I am not specifically saying that Linux itself is better than Windows. I am saying that Windows’ security just sucks compared to pretty much everything else out there. Go ahead and debate that if you want–you seem like you’ll pull some kind of shit out of your ass to defend Microsoft. That much can be inferred from your previous posts.
The idiots trying to get to porn and see bunnies hopping doesn’t help anything at all, but at the same time Windows makes it disturbingly easy to get screwed–and the patches Microsoft is putting out just don’t help.
The dancing pigs problem isn’t the fault of Windows and wouldn’t be solved by requiring a password. Switching everyone to Linux wouldn’t solve it either.
I would argue that switching everyone to Linux would be a bad idea anyway (didn’t I already say that in this topic?). A mono culture is never a good thing. Although, if everyone used Linux in general (as in, an operating system based on the Linux kernel) but everyone used different distributions instead of everyone using Ubuntu or Mint, I would imagine the situation to still be better than what Windows faces today. A nice even combination of Linux, BSD, UNIX, Mac OS X, Windows, etc. would be optimal–where by “Linux” I mean a nice, healthy selection of at least a half-dozen or a dozen distros with relatively even shares of users.
Of course, this is all hypothetical. It doesn’t make up for the fact that Microsoft has made countless braindead-stupid design decisions in the past, with UAC being just one of the more recent ones in how it was implemented. A good idea, yeah–but useless the way it was set up. That’s UAC.
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ze_jerkface
I am saying that Windows’ security just sucks compared to pretty much everything else out there.
Says the guy who would thinks UAC is worthless. What exactly sucks compared to everything else? Be specific. I work with both Linux and Windows so please enlighten me.
Windows makes it disturbingly easy to get screwed–and the patches Microsoft is putting out just don’t help.
WTF are you talking about? So it would make no difference if people turned off updates? That is actually one of the biggest problems.
I would argue that switching everyone to Linux would be a bad idea anyway (didn’t I already say that in this topic?). A mono culture is never a good thing.
But wouldn’t 100k randomly generated binary incompatible versions of Windows have a better result? So again Windows itself isn’t the problem. That’s like saying Windows has security problems that can be improved by shutting off the internet twice a week. It’s not a systemic problem, reduced exploits through binary incompatibility is a security strategy that is separate from Windows.
People who run Windows 98 today don’t have to deal with malware.
Android has far more malware than Windows 98. Conclusion: Windows 98 has superior security. We should switch all smartphones to Windows 98 to solve the Android malware problem.
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UltraZelda64
Windows makes it disturbingly easy to get screwed–and the patches Microsoft is putting out just don’t help.
“WTF are you talking about? So it would make no difference if people turned off updates? That is actually one of the biggest problems.”
Bleh. I give up arguing with you, this is the same kind of nonsense counter-argument I was expecting from you. I point out that Microsoft comes up with cheap little band-aids as “features” to “patch” a problem (and poorly at that), and you try to spin it around to make it seem that I am talking about all security updates (or even security updates at all). Hint: I was NOT talking about Windows Update or security updates/patches in general. I was talking about the many worthless kludges that Microsoft keeps tacking on with little to no benefit and passing them off as breathtaking security “features.” You know… *that* kind of patch. I thought for sure I made that clear with my wording, but really, I’m getting the idea that you’re just trying to twist what I say around just for an argument, and I’ve argued my point more than enough.
If this was some god damn security update I was talking about, I would also be complaining about one of the more recent Windows XP service packs. But I’m not talking about security updates–I am talking about a questionable “security feature” that made its way into Vista. Get it? If so, good. If not, someone else can waste their time–I’m done.
Nice cheap shot with the Win98 comparison. How that’s relevant to modern operating systems, I don’t know–although I get your point, but don’t agree with your conclusion. It really sounds like you’re trying everything you can to defend your beloved Windows and slam Android. What did Android ever do to you, steal your Windows Phone? Kill Steve Jobs? Rape your dog?
Edited 2012-08-29 10:54 UTC
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ze_jerkface
Nice cheap shot with the Win98 comparison. How that’s relevant to modern operating systems, I don’t know–although I get your point, but don’t agree with your conclusion.
It’s a joke and shows the faulty logic in measuring an operating system’s security by its malware rate. I don’t actually want to move Android users to Windows 98. Oh and I own an Android tablet.
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UltraZelda64
Except, I am more concerned about Windows’ weak DESIGN in general, and I thought I made that clear by now. And yes, I have mentioned in my other posts about how it would actually be *bad* for Linux if just one distribution owned 98% of the OS space. So I obviously know this. Your joke still came off as a cheap shot though. Obviously no one gives a damn about Windows 98–it’s old, it’s outdated, and it sucks. Not even malicious people care, because there’s no money to be made out of an OS that no one uses any more.
Still, the Windows of today of a rough (key word there) evolution of the Windows of over a decade ago–just with a different kernel, the complete removal of MS-DOS, and the complete removal of other antiquated technology as well as many major upgrades to main functionality. Everything’s basically been rewritten, and what hasn’t been yet probably will be eventually. It still has Win32, which is what most of this shit is written for anyway. It still tries to fully obey Win32 to allow full backwards compatibility at the expense of security, which means that even though the kernel may have security features light-years ahead of Win9x and more comparable to UNIX (superior even in some cases), the OS as a whole is still subject to the same questionable security practices that Windows was always bitten in the ass by.
And this is the point I am getting at: despite all the dumb little patches that just poorly hide the booboos of the past and even the much more modern and secure core/foundation (kernel), they still exist and that’s pretty much why Windows is still owned in the same ways it always has been in the past. It’s just a massive improvement to basically the same old Windows, with the underlying OS having undergone a complete overhaul long ago and with every new release more systems are being completely redone. But it’s still running a rickety, poorly-secured layer.
And I don’t see Metro fixing that… especially for desktop users, and Secure Boot/Trusted Computing is causing more harm than anything for users of any operating system besides Microsoft’s.
Bleh… why am I still going on?
Edited 2012-08-29 21:55 UTC
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2012-08-29 6:36 pm
AnyoneEBAlthough sudo asks for the user’s password by default, there’s a configuration option to make it ask for the root password instead: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Sudo#Root_password
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ze_jerkface
I am still frequently reminded of this problem when I see other people’s systems, whether I like it or not… and it would be nice if that wasn’t the case. But it still is.
Why are you certain that the problem is the system and not the people? Where I work we don’t have a problem with malware even though there are thousands of Windows desktops connected to the internet. It just doesn’t happen.
I sometimes work with wordpress on Linux servers and you have to be continually vigilant as it and its plug-ins are often targets of attack. But since I’m not using Windows shouldn’t I be safer? The opposite is actually true since most exploits are going after a lamp combination. We only use Linux servers because so many plug-ins aren’t supported in Windows.
Security is far more complex than ‘just use Linux’.
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UltraZelda64
Windows (and Microsoft) encourages dumb users and clicking random shit. It’s in their whole design. Encourage those two things in the design of your OS, and you’re just asking for trouble. I don’t recall ever saying that the users have nothing to do with it–they do–but the design of Windows sure as hell doesn’t help.
Congrats, you work in a place where people have more common sense than average when using computers, and your company probably has each system further locked down much more than a typical computer would be straight from the OEM.
As for a LAMP setup being subject to attack–NOOO, REALLY?!? Who would’ve guessed a *server* of all things would be vulnerable to attack. I’m astounded.
[Note: Make sure your sarcasm detector is working for that last bit.]
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ze_jerkface
Windows (and Microsoft) encourages dumb users and clicking random shit. It’s in their whole design.
What part of system is forcing people to click on freelohanporn.exe?
and your company probably has each system further locked down much more than a typical computer would be straight from the OEM.
That is entirely it, most users have to request to have anything installed. If everyone ran Linux and wanted as much access to third party software the same problem would exist.
As for a LAMP setup being subject to attack–NOOO, REALLY?!? Who would’ve guessed a *server* of all things would be vulnerable to attack. I’m astounded.
[Note: Make sure your sarcasm detector is working for that last bit.]
You’d be surprised, Linux fans for the most part have decided that Linux is always the better choice for security and that Windows has an evil ghost in the machine.
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UltraZelda64
[q]Windows (and Microsoft) encourages dumb users and clicking random shit. It’s in their whole design.
What part of system is forcing people to click on freelohanporn.exe?
Once again, you’re taking what I said out of context to prove me wrong on something I didn’t even say. THIS is why I give up: you are a waste of time arguing with. I never said a word about FORCING anything. Forcing and encouraging are NOT the same thing. You’re putting words in my mouth that I didn’t even say.
Edited 2012-08-29 21:21 UTC
2012-08-29 7:48 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=syD4Z_1K09A
Linux doesn’t have a hope in hell
Doesn’t look like even ubuntu is what normal windows users want.
Edited 2012-08-29 07:49 UTC
2012-08-29 8:21 am
Windows Vista did help Linux (and Mac) enormously. Of course, Microsoft won’t lose its position overnight just because of one weak release. But who knows how far things would go downwards if not Windows 7. Selling ageing Windows XP at zero profit wouldn’t work all that well in the long term.
Even if just a hickup, Vista made quite an impact.
– It started NetBooks – before Vista no major OEM would have even considered releasing a PC without Windows. Microsoft *had* to respond to it by lowering prices of Windows XP even though they wanted to do the opposite (to promote Vista).
– It pushed several percent of Windows users to alternative systems (yes, mostly Mac).
– It created a window of opportunity for mobile systems (iOS, Android). Even though they do not compete directly with Windows, this simply wouldn’t happen in 2000 when Windows and IE were blocking anything else on interoperability grounds.
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Coxy
I don’t think vista helped any other os much… I don’t know anyone who would swap their OS just because they didn’t like VISTA. That’s the kind of thing people who visit OS News would do, but not something normal people do.
Apple may have more users, but it is because of the desirability of their products, not the OS, or that bad OSs developed by MS. Normal people don’t know what an OS is. It’s a just a computer, and if it has to clarified, it’s an apple or windows computer.
Normal people have never heard of Ubuntu… no matter how popular linux geeks think it has become.
Edited 2012-08-29 10:42 UTC
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ndrw
I know several people who bought a Mac or a Netbook, and plenty of people who stayed with XP or bought an iPhone or an Android phone in that couple of years.
Luckily for Microsoft they didn’t lose that much of the market share (at the cost of extending life of XP and earning nothing on it). But that’s only thanks to their initial position on the market and their quick response with Windows 7. If Windows 7 was a failure too, they would have a serious trouble.
Still, for two years you could hear nothing but complaints about Vista and praises of Mac, Netbooks, iOS, Android. Things would look very different today if Vista was a success.
2012-08-29 9:38 am
It’s probably the best opportunity Linux is going to get, yet I don’t think they get it. It’s like they’re squandering their time and not even paying attention.
Hellooo McFly? Anybody there listening? Get off your butts and let’s start this engine!. Xubuntu is a fantastic way to start.
2012-08-29 2:09 pm
The problem isn’t that Linux is a joke. The problem is that Linux is a volunteer effort. It will never be able to support desktop hardware as well as Windows, particularly complicated graphics stuff.
Granted it would probably help if some of the developers got off their ideological high horse, and implemented a stable driver API… But even then, I don’t think things would work in Linux’s favor.
I use Linux nonetheless – because it works better for what I do. That doesn’t change that it’s a much more primitive OS than Windows in a lot of ways.
(OTOH, it does have its specialties. What’s the Windows equivalent of a GrSecurity kernel and a hardened toolchain?)
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PieterGen
I had to partition a Windows 7 laptop the other day. This turned out to be much harder than it is on Linux: there are no tools like cfdsik or parted for Windows (or are there?), and Windows supports only a few file systems are supported by Windows (fat,nfts, but not reiser, xfs, ext(x), btrfs and so on. In therms of file systems Windows is more primitive than Linux.
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Gullible Jones
Don’t let the crappy partitioning tools fool you; NTFS is much more feature-complete than most Linux filesystems. You can’t do volume snapshots on ext4 for instance.
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Gullible Jones
True, but LVM is not what I’d consider simple to administer, and incurs significant overhead in my experience – significant as in noticeable on a desktop.
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2012-08-30 6:57 am
Mr. DeePartitioning in Windows is nowhere near difficult, you can use disk part through command line or disk management which is easier.
Click Start, right click Computer
Click Manage
Expand Disk Management
Select the system partition
Click Shrink
Follow the onscreen wizard and enter the amount you want to shrink.
Also, there are free easy to tools with more flexible options such as Easeus.
2012-08-29 3:36 pm
What’s killing Linux is X.org and PulseAudio breaking upgrades and breaking compatibility with apps. There is the DARK DARK secret of Ubuntu: Canonical (and other distros) are dependent on X.org and PulseAudio, but don’t have any kind of control what the X.org or PulseAudio neckbeards are doing (and what compatibility they are breaking).
I prefer the Microsoft and Apple way, aka “maintain back compat for Windows XP in 7, otherwise you are fired”. Same for device compatibility. Microsoft and Apple are not breaking device compatibility unless there is some major change going on. Linux kernel breaks compatibility with devices (I don’t care if my devices are “open” or not) for fun every 6 months.
Edited 2012-08-29 15:37 UTC
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Soulbender
What’s killing Linux is X.org and PulseAudio breaking upgrades and breaking compatibility with apps.
What are these magical problems people have with X and PulseAudio breaking upgrades and apps? Seriously, I’m curious. I haven’t had upgrade or compatibility problems with either of those for ages, if ever, and I run Ubuntu on anything from a 7 year old laptop to a current workstation.
There is the DARK DARK secret of Ubuntu: Canonical (and other distros) are dependent on X.org
Wow, thanks for that Captain Obvious. Imagine that you need a graphics subsystem for a GUI. These are truly dark times.
but don’t have any kind of control what the X.org or PulseAudio neckbeards are doing
Are OSS neckbeards worse than MS/Apple code monkeys?
Linux kernel breaks compatibility with devices (I don’t care if my devices are “open” or not) for fun every 6 months.
Making things up doesn’t make them true.
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ze_jerkface
Really now
Kernel upgrade breaks wireless
https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=139241
Gee whiz why do people keep having the same complaints about Linux? Could it be that they actually exist and not part of a conspiracy?
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Soulbender
Sorry, where did I say there are no problems at all, ever?
I was specifically referring to X and PulseAudio.
Gee whiz why do people keep having the same complaints about Linux?
I dunno, why do people keep complaining about Windows? Maybe because it also has real problems and bugs?
News flash: Windows, OSX and Linux (and BSD’s etc) are all stable OS’s with complex code that sometimes breaks.
2012-08-29 4:14 pm
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
Just because I thought windows 1.x sucked and I think windows 8 sucks doesn’t mean a lot of stupid people will like it.
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ze_jerkface
I’ve seen a lot of posts (though many were removed) on the Windows 8 blog from shop owners who tried Windows 8 on their customers only to have an overwhelmingly negative response.
2012-08-31 2:09 am
I red very alike article at the time when Windows 7 was about to come out. Windows 8 looks disastrous, but does that really matter?
Linux in desktop market will succeed if microsoft will start selling it. For now I can only see one path for linux to desktop marked, which is in a form of android on capable mobile devices that seamlessly can be transformed into desktop. Anything else would be a miracle.
These posts shouldn’t even exist until X has a decent fallback mode or is replaced by wayland.
Leaving grandma in the command line because of a driver crash or broken update in 2012 is completely unacceptable.
Cue the excuses.
Uhm.. similar nickname to nt_jerkface. Did you get banned recently or something? Or are you just trolling in the name thereof?
I haven’t ever been kicked back to command line due to a driver crash, after using Xfree/xorg daily for 13 years.
While I have to admit I haven’t seen many X crashes of late the last round of distros I loaded (6 months ago to be fair) had serious driver update issues. Sound going to crap (Pulseaudio still stinks) and wireless is like a bad joke. For everyone who thinks this is “trolling” I urge you to read the two links I’m gonna give you, one from one of the devs of RH that says the Linux desktop is “suckage” and lists many fundamental structural problems with the design, and the second is a list (with links) to around 200 major problems with Linux..
https://plus.google.com/109922199462633401279/posts/HgdeFDfRzNe
http://linuxfonts.narod.ru/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.the.desktop.c…
As a small shop owner that builds and sells PCs believe me I WANT Linux to get better, problem is politics and religious dogma have frankly crippled it and it isn’t likely to get better in the near future. Too many critical subsystems from the kernel on up are constantly getting futzed with with ZERO thought to QA or QC or backwards compatibility, no hardware ABI means that you are at the mercy of the devs who may or may not have the time, manpower, or even access to the hardware that is screwed up to accurately diagnose and fix serious driver issues, and you can’t just hand grandma a system which will have the wireless and sound crap out if she ever updates the thing.
Ingo Molnar’s complaints (the RH kernel dev) all revolve around software distribution and he proposes features he wants in a future software distribution technology. I’m guessing this is a prelude to something coming out of Red Hat which they hope will be picked up as a standard method of software distribution across all distros.
how has ‘politics and religious dogma’ crippled Linux, really?
An abi change doesn’t mean there’s any changes to the actual functionality of the hardware drivers. I’d like to see any statistics on how many driver bug fixes are related to abi changes, I seriously doubt that is an issue.
And the devs do take responsibilty for keeping in-tree drivers up running against changes in the ABI, also there are lots of testers out there with a wide range of hardware reporting problems during the development cycles.
It’s proprietary drivers which obviously needs to be maintained by third-party outside of the kernel, thankfully there are only very few of those these days as Linux supports an astounding amount of hardware right out of the box.
Dude its simple math, and if anybody takes even 5 seconds to think about it you’ll see the whole idea simply doesn’t work.
Let me lay it out, at your average distro you have MAYBE 50 guys truly qualified to do low level driver work, and I’m giving them a BIG benefit of the doubt with that number. Frankly I’d be amazed if you had even 10 guys at anyplace not the size of Red hat. Now how many drivers do you have? I’d say 100,000 would be a fair number, with new hardware coming out every day, but again lets give them extra leeway and say 10,000.
So you have 50 guys, dealing with everything from the kernel on up being constantly futzed with, and you have 10,000 drivers and a release every 6 months to a year…see the problem? If you had them pumped up on magic marching powder and working 24/7/365 they’d never even be able to keep up with what is on their plate, much less deal with the myriad of new hardware!
But this is why a hardware ABI is good and “letting the devs handle it” is bad, the math simply doesn’t work. I can take an RTM WinXP from 12 years ago, install the drivers, and then upgrade to current and tada! the drivers STILL WORK. I have an XP from 2004 in the shop, its had every single patch placed on since 2004, we’re talking thousands of fixes and patches and the drivers? STILL WORK.
That is why I tell everyone that thinks Linux is ready to step up and take the Pepsi challenge. We’ll take any distro (no LTS because we’ve already seen with Ubuntu LTS means “We won’t fix” as rarely does anything get backported) that was released in 2009, the same year as Windows 7, place it and Win 7 RTM on identical machines. We’ll then upgrade both to current and see what happens.
But I can already tell you what happens, because I’ve done so with about a half a dozen distros now, everything from current darlings Ubuntu to more offbeat suggestions like PCLOS and Fedora, and the results are always the same…a broken system. Sound is toast, wireless gone, the system will be a mess. meanwhile the Win 7 system? Keeps right on humming along.
When you can give me a Linux version that gets 10 years, or even 7 years worth of updates without having to “google for fixes” then we’ll talk, until then like it or not its a mess and not ready for John Q Public.
First of all, the developers are not testing all the drivers/hardware, others are testing the hardware they have and report problems upstream.
Secondly you don’t seem to understand what an ABI is, it’s an interface, a change to that interface means that in the majority of cases all it takes is a tweak to the driver source code, you sound as if the driver functionality needs to be rewritten.
And third, just because the ABI isn’t stable doesn’t mean it changes all the time and force kernel devs to make those small changes in drivers. And just so that you understand what we are talking about here, it’s in-kernel interfaces, not the userspace->kernel interface, which is very stable.
Finally, the stability of a driver does not lie in the ABI, you can make changes to the ABI with every minor revision with a perfectly stable driver as a result.
And unlike Windows and OSX, Linux needs to run on a wide range of cpu architectures, many for which hardware device vendors have little to no interest in providing proprietary drivers, however due to the amazing in-tree driver support of Linux these cpu architectures enjoys great hardware support.
Proprietary drivers is a moronic concept, it creates an artificial barrier preventing you from using the hardware you’ve purchased in the environment of your choice and instead you are beholden to the good will of the hardware vendor to ‘allow’ you to use the hardware where they see fit.
Therefore it’s so great to see not only that the holdouts are practically extinct (NVidia), and that discrete GPU’s are being obsoleted from the end user desktop and replaced by gpgpu’s with fully open source drivers which means there’s suddenly every possibility of a future where you can get full use of your graphics hardware no matter if you use Linux, BSD’s, Haiku, insert favourite alternative OS here
And for those who still use discrete GPU’s there are alternatives like Nouveau which has made incredible progress in a very short amount of time through nothing but painstaking reverse engineering and skill.
I’ve actually done that “Pepsi challange” since 2009 with fedora, things just get better. Or are you saying that you need to upgrade to new “versions” of Fedora while windows 7 is still windows 7? Or are you saying that Fedora 11 is no longer supported and therefore loses? I think it passes as I have upgraded it and nothing has broken. Hardware that didn’t work well at first got better. Software that didn’t work well at first got better.
If you want a desktop version that doesn’t need a “Version” upgrade and with minimal fuss, then I’d direct you to Red hat enterprise Desktop or CENTOS. Those are pretty rock solid and get a decent amount of backports.
RHEL is $400 a year, Windows a one time cost of $80-$140 depending on version, no comparison. And Cent is a leecher mod done by a couple of guys that could disappear tomorrow, as we saw a couple years back with them just falling away for months without even email, again no comparison.
Again I’ll be happy to step up and take the challenge, and don’t blame me that Linux HAS to be upgraded, as Windows supports for 10 years and Linux could too if they chose, instead the devs say “its free” so they upgrade. Well my time is NOT free and those upgrades make messes. We’ll take 2 bog standard COTS laptops, any OEM, slap whatever Linux and Win 7 RTM with NO driver packs, we’ll see what works OOTB and if either needs drivers we’ll install, then we’ll patch/upgrade to current.
As I’ve said I’ve done this and seen with my own two eyes, drivers BREAK badly. Wireless and sound are the worse, but video will often be flaky, changed settings will be reset or sometime end up borked completely, its a mess.
RHEL desktop ( we are talking about desktops, right?) is as little as $50 a year.
https://www.redhat.com/apps/store/desktop/
If you can’t afford redhat and don’t trust cent to be around… there is scientific linux. Also free, developed and supported by Nuclear physicists.
What do you mean by “drivers break badly”? Are you talking about binary blob drivers? Or out of kernel drivers? If so, then yes they do break by the abi changes. If you are talking about open source drivers that are included in the kernel, then I can honestly say I’ve never seen that happen. I’ve never seen an open source driver included in the driver break because of an update.
In the context here, of desktop Linux, one can certainly point to the KDE/Gnome split – and ponder what could have been if the resources, energy, focus were more united.
‘politics and religious dogma’ sums up the background of this split fairly accurately.
Yet they seem to be more or less the rule in what are probably the most prominent, by far, end-user-oriented Linux devices – Android phones…
I’d rather be kicked back to a command line than to a blue screen where there is no chance to recover.
All crash recovery stinks. Linux’s is no worse than Windows, so it is instead a matter of how often you need to use it.
At least when it comes to graphics driver crashes on Windows 7 (they still occur) all that happens is that my screen flickers, switches to Aero Basic, flickers, and then everything is back to normal. No bluescreen.
So the best fallback is to just switch to another driver, try to restart the crashed driver, and keep everything running including applications and open documents.
However, if that is not possible I sure agree with you. I want a command line more than a bluescreen and a restart. Preferably mixed with some autosaving stuff (like OS X) to make sure my open documents can be recovered.
I haven’t had a graphics driver related BSOD since Vista came around. The other day, I had a driver restart while playing Prototype 2 – screen flickered for a few seconds, and then I could alt-tab back into the game and continue playing.
I think I’ve seen three BSODs the last couple of years. One was a buggy 3rd-party VPN driver, another was an unstable PSU, and the last was when my X25-E (OS drive) died.
Because staring at an incomprehensible BSOD or having to manually fix the issue with a safe boot and registry hacking is much superior….
BSOD? Have you guys used Windows recently?
Even back when that happened every case I had was fixed with a reboot. Linux isn’t as failsafe as Windows and if X was so great then there wouldn’t be a plan to replace it.
Then there are the subpixel font issues, game resolution changing problems, clipping, video stuttering, and dependence on xorg.conf.
But I’m sure you guys have an anecdote about playing games with grandma on 3 monitors in multiple resolutions while watching a Flash video and all done without touching xorg.conf.
Yes. BSOD’s happen although not really as frequent as some would want to believe.
Good for you and congratulations on using anecdotal evidence. I could say the same for Linux, it hasn’t thrown me back to the CLi in years, and it would mean just as much.
Have you used Linux recently?
If Windows was so great there wouldn’t be a need for a new version with a new UI.
No. I haven’t had to touch xorg.conf in a very long time though.
Btw, you’re not really fooling anyone with the”ze_” prefix.
I think this post sums up the fun that people still have with X:
http://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?f=205&t=101336
Derp, why would I use such a similar name if I wanted to pretend to be someone else?
I no longer go by .NET jerkface because I no longer feel like giving MS a free endorsement.
I’ve even linked to my blog in some posts with this account, go look in my history if you don’t believe me.
Yeah, that particular setup the guy is trying to get is so very common. Hell most motherboards won’t even support two video cards, let alone 3 of them!
By the way (and I would reply to his post, but apparently I don’t have a Linux Mint account, but I’ll create one just to respond to this guy, because I know the answer), the issue is with nVidia’s driver not working with TwinView and any number of monitors that isn’t even. So if he wanted 4 monitors it would work, but not with 3. Ran into this same issue on my work PC (though I have two video cards, and three monitors).
If he used the open source driver, it should work just fine.
Perhaps not the best example but the real problem is that the solution to a seemingly simple problem requires too many steps and command line use for the average user.
Here is a better one:
http://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=71894
Still too much command line dependence. Sound has the same problem. Linux needs a GUI hardware manager, no one should have to edit xorg.conf.
Linux on the desktop just ain’t ready from Grammy. Neither is Windows 8 and I would much rather leave Grammy with an Android tablet if it makes you feel any better.
You mean like https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BulletProofX and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DisplayConfigGTK which were added to Ubuntu years ago? (I don’t remember which release precisely, but those pages are dated 2008.)
Linux forums deal with text files and CLI solutions because they are easier to communicate. There is a pure GUI way to execute the solution recommended in the thread you linked… but it would have been harder to explain than “paste exactly this text into a terminal/config file”. The fact that there is often no easy way to change a setting on the command line in Windows makes it significantly harder to discuss problems and fixes via a forum.