Counterfeiters aren’t Microsoft’s only opponents in its effort to combat piracy: Some of its customers are against it, too. The company is forging ahead with a program, Windows Genuine Advantage, tied to its free software downloads and updates, that checks whether the Windows installation on a PC is pirated. But some people, including some who say they own a legitimately acquired copy of Windows, have challenged the need for such validation.
I wonder if they would have that problem if they went open-source?
Of course, I dont see why Microsoft would, theres to much money in Operating Systems…
“Windows Genuine Dis-Advantage”
People still have to buy it, so why complain?
more that its money in selling the tools that allow others to build solutions.
right now microsoft have a complete tools package from os on up, windows on server and desktop, exchange and active directory for the network, ms office for the interface.
and for more specialized solutions there is visual basic or c++, and now .net…
but they all tie together…
basicly what they did was that they out-novelled novell all those years ago, and have mantained control to this day.
when netscape tryed to pull a fast one with web-apps, they managed to kill that of with IE and activex on top of the existing stack.
in many ways, netscape was ahead of its time. the webapp needed a more speedy connection to the net so that graphics and similar could be loaded on the fly.
this is what we see today with google and ajax.
now if google can turn their google mail into a cooperation system to rival that of exchange, and provide it all over a encrypted connection, things will be truely interesting.
microsoft, i think, have spotted this and thats why they are rolling out “live”. problem is that its about to go into the same trap that .net did. to many services and other stuff is getting the live label.
People who buy Microsoft Windows forfeit their priviledge (there is no right) to complain concerning that software. They bought it, they deserve what they get.
“I have licenses for all my PCs,” wrote CNET News.com reader “kamwmail-cnet1.” But citing a lack of trust in Microsoft, this reader installed the 905474.exe tool. “Install this hack. Boot your PC. You’re in business, private business,” the reader added.
Am I the only one who appreciates the irony of somebody who doesn’t trust Microsoft … so he/she turns around and runs an untrusted executable? ;-o
LOL and they wonder why Trojens and viruses spread so quickly on windows…
Jim
On the other hand – trusting code from Microsoft is no better. And trusting code from Microsoft _is_ the primary key to trojans and viruses. Those, who don’t trust Microsoft tend to be free from trojans and viruses, and malware in general.
Malware from Microsoft or malware from crackers ruins your privacy equally bad. But in this case I’d probably ever more faith in the untrusted software (seen from OS-pov) rather than trust untrusted software (seen from USER-pov).
So you’re advocating that Windows hotfixes are not to be trusted? Yeah, there’s a way to avoid malware — let’s run unpatched Windows installations.
You are a complete tool.
No I’m not advocating such a thing.
I’m advocating not blindly trusting Microsoft. The WGA is malware (besides being tantamount a direct violation of Grundloven), and does in no way raise the security of your system. Actually it does the opposite.
Please quote me correctly, rather than using this old troll-technique.
I merely advocate common sense. See what it is before you install it. This is true for all software.
trusting code from Microsoft _is_ the primary key to trojans and viruses
I call bull. The primary key to trojans and viruses is the stupidity and naivety of the unexperienced and uneducated Windows user (and the persistence of educated Windows users in doing stupid things). I currently don’t use Windows anymore myself, but my family uses it and I’ve helped “clean up” other people’s computers. I’ve never used a virus scanner, and none of my family uses one. Still, none of those computers ever got infected.
I’m sure that a very important reason that people get infected is by installing malware themselves for doing illegal things. For example, they heard about Kazaa for downloading lots of movies and programs. So they just install that including all the malware. You tell them that’s the reason their computer is acting weird. Well, you can tell them that thousands of times and they’ll keep using it again. Another example, they want to download albums from a web site and the site asks permission to install a malicious activex for access to the downloads. You tell them they should not do this, because it’s malicious. Well, you can tell them thousands of times, but they don’t care, they wanna download those things and they’ll click ‘ok’ on anything that’s needed to get access to the downloads.
Hmm.. I’m actually fairly sure that you can get people to install malware on an OSX computer in the same way. One would only need to put something like “Warning, you need to install this little piece of software to get access to the downloads. This software is needed for optimal transfer of the files. You will be asked for a password.”
That being said, I don’t like the Windows Genuine Advantage tool at all. I already didn’t like the needed “activation” from WindowsXP. However, I think there will be more and more of those online checks in the future for all kinds of software. From the point of view of the software developers, I understand it’s a good way to combat piracy, but it’s just too easy for them to abuse this mechanism in any way they like and send your personal information back to their servers. The fact that they can remotely and ‘at will’ deactivate software on your computer is also undesirable. My concern is what happens when there’s a bug in their tool and the software people depend on for their job is uncorrectly disabled? But that’s what they want… total control over what you do with your computer. It’s actually scary to think about it. Sometimes, I wonder whether the next generation will grow up with DRM, with strict online checks, with encrypted hardware, with laws restricting what you do with the hardware and software you bought, and accept all those things as normal.
Well, I know at least one non-geek who actually learned not to visit pr0n-sites and that kind of stuff, after his younger brother screwed the pc up.
He called me for help because his pc was so slow after his brother had loaned it for some months, and oh boy, did I get a surprise?
I’ve never seen so many vira and malware installed in one computer before. Nor have I seen it afterwards.
We discovered around 1200 vira and approx. 800 entries related to spyware, adware and cruel old malware. Since that day he learned to use firewall and antivirus, and even updating it on daily basis.
It _is_ possible to educate users, but of course it can be difficult.
That said: If you don’t trust code from Microsoft, you won’t be running Windows and therefore won’t suffer from trojans and malware.
EOF
EDITED: Your last paragraph is pretty scary, I admit. The day the government tells me what I can and cannot do with my pc is the day I conclude it has declared war on me. However, there is nothing in Denmark that seems to indicate that direction. Actually, active steps are being taken to stop DRM from spreading
Edited 2006-06-21 10:05
Offtopic, but I have to ask: WTF is “vira”?
The plural of the English word virus is viruses. And if you’re seeking for the Latin word, when the singular ends in -us, the plural ends in -i(i).
Sorry about that one. Used the danish-latinized plural form.
We have two plural forms in Denmark (and three with the latin form). Virus(s)er, Vira, or Virii.
I should’ve used virii instead of vira, but hey – I’m not english-speaking.
Anyway, WTF is up with asking such a stupid question, Trollstoi? You already knew what it meant, so why ask when you know the answer? – unless you want to make fun of persons who do not have english as native language.
Because you are posting in English and not in Danish. How am I supposed to guess that you are Danish and you are mixing these two languages in your post, when you could be from some other country where the word “vira” has some other different meaning (as it indeed has)?
I’m specifically complaining about this because it’s becoming more and more common to see funky plurals for the word virus as well as other tech related words. Nothing personal against you, but it bothers me.
I do have a profile
I’m specifically complaining about this because it’s becoming more and more common to see funky plurals for the word virus as well as other tech related words. Nothing personal against you, but it bothers me.
I can relate to that, and I don’t mind apologizing for goofing up Danish and English, so I hope apology is accepted
I wonder what else ‘vira’ could mean. Oh, what ever.
“The fact that they can remotely and ‘at will’ deactivate software on your computer is also undesirable.”
Link and facts please? The WGA only controls whether you can get securtiy patches or updated programs. As far as I know they can not deactivate software on your computer. I would be happy to be educated if I have missed this, so by all means post a link.
That comment was meant in general about the authentication mechanism for protecting software, not about the WGA tool in specific. However, I remember reading something about someone being locked out of Windows because of his Windows copy being misidentified as non-genuine.
I believe the site I read it, was the following:
http://www.cio.com/blog_view.html?CID=22114
It says “…now my PC locks up whenever I get a message telling me my software isn’t genuine…”. I interpreted that as the WGA tool doing this on purpose, but from your comment it’s probably more like a bug in the WGA tool making his computer crash.
>Am I the only one who appreciates the irony of somebody >who doesn’t trust Microsoft … so he/she turns around >and runs an untrusted executable? ;-o
I think I trust a Russian hacker more than a mega-corporation that has been proven record of operating above the law.
I don’t have nothing against closed sourced, specialy when i think that if i’m going to program something, i think i should deserve the credit for what i builded, whenever is good or bad and if i decide to sell it or not.
I don’t think that open source has anything to do in this case. Would you like to work in a company to a cheap boss, that when you write million dollar code, the only thing you get in chrismas is a 3 kg of red meat?
I certainly would like to get paid for the code that i wrote, after all we cannot live without food, and to buy food we require money.
I bet that if Microsoft put all their products source code available on their website, they would go bankrupcy in about one year. After all they can’t live from charity.
Edited 2006-06-20 23:17
In one year? Microsoft? Are all their savings in the form of stocks, or what?
(Seriously, I don’t know.)
Edit: I mean, even SCO has stuck around longer than that since taking up litigation…
Edited 2006-06-20 23:37
This has nothing to do with piracy. Sure, it’s impossible to “pirate” FOSS, but it’s still entirely possible to break the very same law “piracy” breaks: Copyright law.
The question of making good money from writing FOSS is outside this thread. Not to mention, the argument you’ve made here is essentially: “Would you wanna get paid less than you could make?” No I wouldn’t, no one would. It’d be better phrased as, “shouldn’t you get paid better than you would if you did this.”
We’d all like to get paid like doctors for salary jobs that let us choose our own 40 hours a week and let us pick our own things to work on, but out here in reality we don’t get to pick the value of our work. So let’s not use our desires as a form of philosophical argument about wages. What you should be saying is that the work truly is worth more than you would get, something I imagine RedHat and Novell programmers would disagree with as I’m sure they get marginally competitive wages.
And actually, the best programmers aren’t driven entirely by money. One of the most coveted jobs, Microsoft, is not the highest paying. Their works are driven by interesting work, flexible work policies (including doing their own ordering), and the nice little things like an open fridge filled with soda by the company.
I’d rather get a mediocre wage and a cool project, being FOSS would be a bonus but certainly no requirement. And I’d much rather have an employer that treats me well rather than one that pays me well.
Well, how about this….
Microsoft could have a closed-source version of Windows, that can sell, and an open-source version that has no support or warranty, kind of like Sun has open-source and Trusted Solaris….
They could at least make the Sh*t less expensive, I mean, dang $300 for XP Pro? (I know about the OEM version for $140…), but many people do not know that…
Its not about the money, its about sharing knowledge…
and Microsoft hasnt given a thing to this world but, buggy, bloated, busted software…
How much is Linus Torvalds worth?
No really, how much?
I agree about the price, i already said that.
But tell me, did Linus Torvalds created a Linux distribution? Remember that “Only about 2% of the current Linux kernel is written by Torvalds himself.” (quote from Wikipedia)
A Linux Distribuition is much more than the Linux Kernel, is a billion of free programs programmed by a billion of programmers in their free time
And remember Linus Torvalds has a job, is getting a decent salary for his work at Open Source Development Labs (for what i know) so that’s probably what he worths
“A Linux Distribuition is much more than the Linux Kernel, is a billion of free programs programmed by a billion of programmers in their free time
”
Isnt it a beautiful thing?
I think if Microsoft used a different Kernel, like something BSD based, they could still make plenty of money….and earn some well earned respect among the open-source crowd…
until then, they will get none….
Edited 2006-06-21 03:04
You have a rather amusing idea of non-profit organizations.
If Microsoft wants to cut down on piracy.Simple, make the software cheaper and stop gouging our eyes out.
LOL
Windows XP is extremely cheap. MS offers the tools (VS Ex) FREE for home usage.
What gouging? O_o
I beg to differ. Some of the biggest pirates I’ve known were students, they’re not rich enough to afford 250$ CAD for a copy of Windows XP home, and in some places stores like WalMart take advantage of being local monopolies and jack the prices up, I remember seeing a Windows ME going for almost $300 on the dot at one WalMart in a small town in Newfoundland and by then the product was so far gone that no other stores carried it any more. Microsoft might have some freebies available, but as someone whose been trying out the express editions of J#.net and C++.net since they were released, I can tell you that those products have only recently become reliable enough for school CS projects. MS Office isn’t cheap either, and students need at least a current version of Windows and Office in order to do their homework at home in every school I’ve been in, because Microsoft cuts special deals for the schools and leaves the students forced to upgrade for compatibility while having no budget to do so.
Well… Microsoft does have a very good program to give students access to all professional Windows tools for a very cheap price. That’s the Microsoft Academic Alliance program. I’m not sure, but it’s possible that your university/school needs to have an agreement with Microsoft before you can make use of this. If I remember right (I may be mistaken), it was about 50$ for a one year subscription, which gives you the right to download all Microsoft’s developer tools and OSes during that one year period. For access to the Microsoft Office tools, I believe you needed another subscription which was also about 50$.
Anyways, I’m not a Microsoft user and I’m not advocating the use of Microsoft products, but if you need these things for school, maybe that’s something to look at. I think that’s a fair price and if I’m not mistaken, you’re allowed to keep using the downloaded software after that one year for personal and educational use (you can’t use it for commercial/professional reasons).
It’s in Microsoft’s best interest to make students addicted to their software, so that’s the reason they have good deals for the schools.
Universities have discounts for students on hardware and especially software from whichever company (MS or Apple) got to them first, and I’m sure Colleges do too; however, no k-12 school that I’ve seen in this country yet participates in a program to get students software from any company at a discounted rate. I haven’t even yet managed to get someone from a school to prove that I’m one of their students when that was all that was needed on their part for student discounts.
Believe it or not, even k-12 schools are forcing students to keep their software current, there’s no other way to do homework as less and less teachers will accept hand written assignments. When they have no choice (a particular student or students can’t even afford a computer for example) they just deduct marks for spelling mistakes which a spell checker could take care of, and they deduct marks for neatness because the student(s) could have fought to the death for one of the too few computers in the library. I my current school to make things worse, the computers in the library are half busted, out of the four that are actually in the library itself, only two get as far as booting. Sometimes the librarians will let students use the computers in the lab attached to the library, although one needs to be in good standing with the attending librarian and needs to be trustworthy because there’s no supervision.
So you can see that I’ve witnessed cases where Microsoft took a loss in revenue when dealing with a school, knowing full well that unhappy students and parents would soon be sucking their bank accounts dry so they could update their software. It’s safe enough to be behind one version, sometimes two, but the schools usually jump up in six to eight year increments. Of course the kids and parents who get fed up with this start sharing someone’s custom burned warez CD, but my simpathy isn’t with Microsoft.
You have to be the first person I’ve ever met who says that Microsoft will give people software for at little as 50$ if they’re a student, so how about providing a link? I’d like to see how legit that is, and whether it requires school participation (which usually doesn’t happen before post-secondary, thus making the deal worthless to anyone in k-12).
“You have to be the first person I’ve ever met who says that Microsoft will give people software for at little as 50$ if they’re a student, so how about providing a link? I’d like to see how legit that is, and whether it requires school participation (which usually doesn’t happen before post-secondary, thus making the deal worthless to anyone in k-12).”
Actually, they have given discounts to students for a long time. All that is needed is to prove you are a student or a teacher with a school ID card. Not hard to do if you are legitimate. An example is the MS Office 2003 Student and Teacher Edition. Cost is $149 USD and is the same as MS Office 2003 Standard. Not quite $50, but a considerabel discount. Check CompUSA for it, as they carry it on the shelves in all the stores actually. Have a school ID? You can buy it today. No school participation required.
I still have my copy of MS Visual Studio 97 Professional Education Edition purchased for $200 at the time.
*Edit added “No school participation required”
Edited 2006-06-21 18:49
Ah, so that’s the catch. It’s not really 50 dollars for all the software or even 50 dollars a piece, rather it’s a much smaller discount on the original prices which even then are too steep for many students (especially those in k-12).
I’ve used my school ID once to get a legit copy of MS Office I needed for school, my parents had to pay and they were unhappy about that, but when they also found out that my sister’s version of Windows needed to be upgraded to use it and that her computer almost needed to be replaced to be able to handle it they were completely pissed. After all, MS Office alone had to be the most expensive individual item needed for school by a long shot, even with the student discount it was still more expensive than the graphic calculator I needed for Calculus, and that brings me back to my original point: MS gives schools software with steep discounts, and then gets to sell it to the students who with only a meagre discount to help them. The very fact that there is a dependence which can affect your grades and in turn your entire life after school makes it no better than drug peddling in my opinion, the only difference is that one is against the law and the other’s perfectly legal and endorsed by the government. Schools just can’t stop marking based on neatness and spelling, that would lead to a nation full of incompetent writers.
And yet in Microsoft’s defence, computers with the right software make getting school work done much easier and faster. The problem isn’t that Microsoft is selling a solution to a problem, but the fact that their student prices are still to high for something that needs to be upgraded several times throughout a person’s education. All the other fees clean us out without Microsoft being responsible for another set up upgrades that at the very least tops a hundred and fifty dollars a piece for each software title. The schools could change this by using something that’s properly backwards compatible, like StarOffice which also works perfectly with OpenOffice.org, or by doing something like the OLPC project where each student gets a computer with only adequate hardware and software, thus meaning it’s not a toy and it’s not something most people would steal.
I’ve actually made a recomendation on the last anonymous student survey that the school board consider something like the OLPC project for students. Schools that do have money to burn are loaning out iBooks and IBM and Toshiba laptops which will only end up being used for games before ultimately being destroyed or stolen anyway. Schools that don’t have money to burn are leaving students with very old computers, half of which don’t work, and schools in the middle have reasonable computers, but not enough of them. Something like the OLPC project done for students would mean that kids spend anywhere between 150$ to 300$ on a computer they get to keep that will do everything they need without distractions like games, and should be built to last several years while also having the ability to upgrade the software at a minimal cost. It beats making parents buy their kids 500+$ a computer and then anywhere between 150$ and 300$ every two years including the first for software, plus another 100+$ for a graphing calculators. It also doesn’t cut MS out, but they should be expected to sell software for the machines cheaply which isn’t unreasonable considering that the software would be tied to the computers and would only have the functionality needed by students. Maybe I’m just being ideal, but I believe this is the way to go, the only other legal alternative I can see is making a switch to software that adheres to true open standards and doesn’t just pay lipservice to the idea in order to get customers.
hey, I just read your post. I have to say that I did not use that program as a student, but I was teaching assistant at the university at the computer science department and I know we were using that program. The university paid for this kind of subscription for the teaching assistants. It’s 100% legit. I do believe that the school needs to have an agreement with Microsoft before students can get to use this service.
The web site is the following:
http://www.ma3d.com
The program for software development applications is MSDNAA, but from the website I see here, it seems to only be available in Belgium and the Netherlands. (I’m from Belgium)
The program for MS Office is OOPS! and costs 25 euro/year for Microsoft Office Professional 2003. I guess the prices have changed somewhat.
Hmm.. I don’t know whether this is actually available in the US, I quote from the webpage “Microsoft and Signpost developed OOPS! in order to give students in Belgium and Luxembourg a permanent access to Microsoft’s most popular software, in a legal, affordable, rapid and easy way, via the MA3D site. In other words : legal and quality software respecting low student budgets.”
K-12 schools is for children from 6-12? In here, these programs seem to be available for all ranges of education, even adult education it seems.
As a remark on what you said. I know that here in Belgium, teachers also push children to use the computer, or the children have to search things on the internet for example. I personally don’t think that’s a good thing, unless you can give everyone of the students access to a computer and the used software.
300$ is extremely cheap? O_o
Try with 10-15 $ – now, that would be extremely cheap (I mean I can get great games at that price – a tad old but so is XP).
Edited 2006-06-21 01:46
I downloaded the ?free? ISO of VS C++ Express. It had me install and uninstall SO much extra *required* software, or incompatible software, I don’t even know whats going on in my computer anymore. Yeah… free. They dangle a carrot, and MS gets fill up your computer with whatever they want. I have a legitimate copy of WinXP, but I decided not to even install the program. I never had much trust to begin with, but now I don’t have any.
“Windows XP is extremely cheap. MS offers the tools (VS Ex) FREE for home usage.”
Actually the VS Ex Editions can be used for commercial use too
Windows is cheap…?
Are you talking about quality or price man, because the price is a complete rip-off…
You can get FreeBSD for a real good price….
http://linuxcentral.com/catalog/index.php3?prod_code=D000-263&id=C1…
I wonder is Microsoft would be willing to sell Windows for that much?
you can even download FreeBSD for free….
or any other version of *nix….
Who are the trolls that modded the parent down?
If that was true then Linux should have 100% marketshare, there migth be something else, dont you think.
I notice Microsoft’s whole product activation system seems to get stronger and stronger as more people move to Linux. Not every PC needs a copy of Windows, and don’t they just hate that.
Now that I have any computers that don’t have Windows on them, these checks have convinced me not to put it on any more. I refuse to glue $200 or $300 to a specific set of hardware forever. If I could be assured that a copy of XP I buy today can be moved to an upgraded system later, as is my right, I’d have no problem buying a copy when I needed one, but with this amount of extortion, I flat out refuse to play along.
I notice Microsoft’s whole product activation system seems to get stronger and stronger as more people move to Linux.
I don’t think they’re related. Very few people use Linux on the desktop. It’s just not a credible threat. More likely, MSFT just wants to wring every drop of revenue that it can from people that casually pirate software. Not the hardcore pirates.
———-I notice Microsoft’s whole product activation system seems to get stronger and stronger as more people move to Linux.
I don’t think they’re related. Very few people use Linux on the desktop. It’s just not a credible threat.———
I agree with you, they aren’t related. MS just so happens to be increasing anti-piracy at the same time that linux desktop is also(very very slowly) increasing.
However, anyone who thinks that this won’t lead to more alt_os desktops(linux) is on the naive side.
Very few, whats that?, a few million or are you the one of thoughs who still thinks Linux is a backroom project?
%share dont even count the people who dual boot or have Linux as there desktop, if it does that makes it level with Apple users.
Linux isn’t a backroom project. But its primary usefulness for most users is as a server, not a desktop. I think that ascribing a few million to Linux desktop market share is probably too generous.
I agree with that.
———I refuse to glue $200 or $300 to a specific set of hardware forever.————
At 2-3 hundred, that piece of software is an investment. (as anything with that large of a pricetag should be)If I can’t maximize my investment, I’m certainly not going to invest.
As the largest software company around, this simple fact being lost upon MS is striking IMHO.
I refuse to glue $200 or $300 to a specific set of hardware forever.
If you buy the full retail version, the $200 and $300 versions, then you can move it to different computers… its just the OEM ($90 and $120) one you aren’t allowed to.
However, if you want to move a full retail version between computers, you must call Microsoft, say to their speech recognition software a 50+ digit number, wait a couple minutes while they tell you that its already been activated. Then Microsoft picks up the phone makes you read their 50+ digit number over and again. They then demand to know why you’re installing Windows on a new computer and decide at their own discresion if your going to be able to install it. If your lucky, they’ll read you back another 50+ digit number. Remember, this is all on the phone, so expensive charges can incur for people using cell phones, which is many people’s (especially students) only phone. On average, it seems to take about 30 minutes from my experience to get Windows activated. Most cell phone providers seem to charge about 35 cents/minute if you go over (and this is an unexpected, longer call which is exactly waht you need to bring you over your minutes) so it costs $10.50 to install Windows on more then one computer for most people, plus a ton of annoyances and wasted time.
Recently at one of the offices where I work, they had a multiuser volume license key that was mistakenly marked as stolen, so everyone was forced to see multiple dialogs which you have to wait for the time to pass by, wasting valuable time where they could instead be making money. It took Microsoft over a week to sort out the issue, which involved me having to change the key on every computer, and we’re not sure we’re going to be able to get a refund for all of the time we spent on the phone with Microsoft support. I showed the owner Ubuntu again (last time he wasn’t interested because everyone already used Windows and he already paid for it so it so no reason to spend the time to switch), and this time, he’s ready to make the switch.
My parents just got a new computer and this thing was installed with our first updates, however it failed to install probably due to a bad download or something, but now it won’t allow us to get any updates. I removed it from the system32 directory, from the downloads folder for Windows Updates, and from the Downloaded Program Files and it still happens. My manufacturer said we need to reinstall Windows…
It just creates more hassle for us paying customers.
Thankfully I will never have Windows on my computer (/me is a Mac guy)
so, from one lock-in to another?
Yes i completly agree, their software should be much more cheaper than it is, giving out €400 for a OS is just too much since most of the work was already done and we shouldn’t pay for code that was already paid when buying windows XP or even even windows 95 :S
But if i saw that the source code on the website, why would i buy it ?? I would simply download and compile it, and money would be saved
Their savings don’t last much, remember that MS invests a lot of money in other countries and have offices in almost every countries in the world and to keep them up and running takes large sums of money. I doubt they would be able to keep them running if ppl sudently stop buying their products cause simply they would be available in the form of source code. Ppl would simply download an already compiled version from the net or even download the source and compile it themselves.
The open source community survives mostly because those who suport it, have a job that suports their life expences and allows them to give away their code for free.
I would do the same if i had a good job that could suport my family and pay my bills and allowed me to produce free code during in my free time. But if i had to sell my programs, i would still sell them for a fair and decent price, nothing crazy like MS currently does.
Edited 2006-06-20 23:53
Ugh, I hate seeing that statement. But let Microsoft continue down this path and that’s what’s gonna happen.
There’s plenty of people out there who are S*E*R*I*O*U*S about their privacy, and as one poster here mentioned, they’ll even execute unknown binaries in order to gain it.
These are future linux prospects.
EDIT:(i’d say mac too, but with Apple’s DRM path and lack of true ownership, this one is more unlikely)
Edited 2006-06-20 23:58
i actually switched to ubuntu a year ago, after hearing how locked down vista will be. I don’t want a computer where i cant be in control of things. i dont want to have to buy a new monitor to view things. i don’t want a future where protected content exists, people have a hard enough time with computers without putting up with bull like protected media.
I have a licensed Windows XP but I am against this whole product activation and WGA thing. Why do I have to validate my copy of Windows? I agree that Microsoft needs to combat piracy in order to *survive* but I also don’t want someone to dictate what I want to do with my legally purchased software. I am a programmer who loves to collect old pieces of software and I want my collection to still “work” several years from now. Imagine this scenario:
The year is 2010. In this future, Microsoft has gone bankrupt and is no longer in business. I buy an old computer and decides to install my prehistoric copy of Windows XP SP2. After I installed the software, the computer asks me: “You need to activate your copy of Windows. Activate Windows now?”. Damn! What now?
While someone might argue that the above scenario is too absurd, no one can argue that my concerns are actually valid. The only reason that’s keeping me from ditching Windows 100% (I am also using Linux in dual boot and virtual machine config) is that I use it for my job (as programmer).
Me, upgrade to Vista? I’m having second thoughts. Maybe, maybe not. It’s no longer as exciting as the first time I held Windows 95 in my arms. Linux is the way to go. I love Windows but I hate Microsoft.
Never knew why people were so up in arms for this.
In kurtlinux‘s case, it’s evident.
I don’t like the not being able to use tranfert the license to another computer. But I respect MS’ right to fight piracy and freeloaders. If I put myself in MS’ place, I would do the same.
And if I were a pharmaceutical company, I wouldn’t want freeloaders getting cheap meds from Canada.
Greed, shady tactics, and indifference to the lowly consumer may be perfectly understandable, but that doesn’t make them right.
People who pay are not freeloaders , also its not the parmaceutical company complaining ( Buy there prodduct from vendor A or vendor B is the same for them , as long as you buy there products ) but the US clerks and US pharmacians who cant compete in a global market.
Getting cheap meds and windows piracy. Your comparison doesn’t make any sense at all.
The OSS trolls are losing it tonight. O_o
Oh, so Microsoft’s corporate priorities should be put above the rights of its customers? Interesting.
Once again, you’re carefully avoiding the main issue here: why do kurtlinux and millions of non-pirates have to prove to Microsoft that they are legal owners of the software? Doesn’t it contradict the presumption of innocence prinicple? Why does Microsoft have the right to presume by default that its customer is a pirate when it comes to WGA and product activation?
Fighting piracy ( or any kind of evil ) does not give anyone the right to step on freedom.
This situation is not as absurd as you might think. I’m also a hoarder of old OS’s. They can be quite handy as they almost never get viruses! They’re just too old.
I would say the only problem with your scenario would be finding hardware that it would actually install on! You’d have to find one of those ancient single-layer “DVD” drives. 🙂
Microsoft going bankrupt in the near future is probably not that plausible, but there are other changes in the world that may reduce the availability of Microsoft activation keys.
I’m thinking of political turbulence or war. Who would have thought that Britain and Argentina would end up in a war over the Falklands with only a few weeks notice. There is nothing that says American borders always will be open to everybody or to Microsoft activation codes.
For now, this is of course not a problem to US citizens, but in the rest of the world this is a problem. This is probably one of the reason Linux and OpenOffice have gained poularity among governments in Europe and Asia.
It could become be a problem in the US. Imagine that they get legislation that prohibits terrorists from owning software. Perhaps that would stop one or two attacks, but what happens if the definition of terrorist slides to contain people who don’t wote for the government party.
Now, you say this will never happen, and it probably wont, but rember that owning a typewriterer required you to have a special license in old Soviet Russia. Democracy for ever can’t be taken for granted.
If you include too much control systems in your infrastructure, these control systems will almost always be used by governments to maintain power and control over their citizens regardless what was the original purpose of that control system. DRM and activation keys are such tools for control.
Even if none of the bad things happens, and Microsoft stays in business forever, there is nothing to prevent them from at some point in time answering: Sorry Sir, we do not support that anymore. May I suggest you upgrade to… When you call them to get a key or a software update.
So, there is a lot more to worry abaout than MS going out of business.
Edited 2006-06-21 05:52
Why do I have to validate my Windows?
Because your operating system suffers from low self esteem?
what can I say…I agree with most that fighting piracy is one thing. Making it difficult for legitimate user to use the software is bad for all parties involved especially MS themselves. I just wish MS keeps on doing it and gets even more serious about it so people can get fed up even quicker.
Yes I have a legal and legitimate copy of XP and no I do not activate it by the normal means!
I already put in the codes, how many more hoops do I need to jump through.
MS keep doing what you are doing, it is working GREAT! In fact I think you should expand the program. rfid tags for the owners to wear, retinal scan maybe, anal probe or something… I ALMOST feel sorry for MS and their users.
Never knew why people were so up in arms for this. In kurtlinux’s case, it’s evident.
Uh…I’m a Linux user, and actually I support this piece of nagware. The reason is simple: the more people are forced to pay for Windows, the more will want to switch to an alternate OS.
A nice line of thought, but unsupported by recent figures.
Windows has been nagging with product activation more and more and now it has finally been smuggled onto most people’s computers as a “security update”. Microsoft should have lost most of its users for that one, I don’t see how it’s any different than sneaking spyware on a computer, yet for some reason because the WGA tool is from Microsoft most people will simply take it and pretend it’s a good thing for everyone. If any other vendor had snuck a tool for spying or usurping control of the computer there would be an uproar just like with the sony rootkits (although I know the MS stuff isn’t a “rootkit” by definition, the intent is still the same).
Has Microsoft lost a significant number of users for this? No, in fact a negligible percentage of the Windows install base might have migrated over to Mac and Linux systems, but we’re talking about a virtually nonexistant figure compared to the number of sheeple still faithfully following a company which has demonstrated time and time again that it loves the money, not the customer.
As for myself, I have two computers to my name that have legit copies of Windows XP installed, and I’m pretty sure I’ve successfully blocked the WGA “security” update on both. One of the computers is now spending about 90% of its uptime running Kubuntu, and the other one is still waiting to have Linux installed, possibly replacing Windows altogether if I’m satisfied with that particular machines hardware support. That doesn’t mean I’ve switched to Linux because of Microsoft sneaking WGA in as a security update though, in truth I’ve been using Linux and distrusting Microsoft for years.
You said, you already distrusted MS for years, and now this WGA thingie (probably together with the really usable state of todays Linux desktops) is probably pushing you towards Linux so much that you seriously consider making the final step.
I guess most people actually do have a limit of how much pressure they will put up with. This limit is different for each person.
So maybe we see 1% of Windows users migrate now, because of this WGA program. If MS increases the pressure, maybe another 5% switch over. Even more pressure maybe makes another 15% leave. As most things in nature there is a level of pressure which will cause half of the people to leave (gaussian bell-curve). And the scale is nonlinear. One amount of pressure will make 1% leave, twice as much will make 5% leave, thrice as much will make 15% leave.
And there is another mechanism. If something has a market share of 15% to 20% it is going mainstream. Especially if the price tag is much less than what the competition can offer. I would say, MS has the possibility to loose some money to pirates, and keep its monopoly for another decade, or they could fight for their license money and loose their monopoly earlier. It is all just a matter of time and behaviour.
Uh…I’m a Linux user, and actually I support this piece of nagware. The reason is simple: the more people are forced to pay for Windows, the more will want to switch to an alternate OS.
Why? The more people that switch to Linux, the more it will be targeted by worms, viruses and other attacks. This will surely just make your choice of OS seem less attractive than it currently does.
I choose my OS because it suits my needs, and I don’t give a flying whatsit about whether other people like to use it or not. But if put on the spot, I would say the less people that use my preferred OS, the better.
You guys are right, not everyone needs Windows. So as of my next install (as soon as I trash this XP install) I’m installing PC Linux OS, cause It’s my favorite Linux.
One problem, I really like playing Command & Conquer Generals. Any help on that one?
It should work with Wine as of the 0.9.x-series.
Or use a F/LOSS-clone
People complain about Windows, Microsoft and the lack of privacy, and yet, these very same people choose to run Windows, even though there is a viable alternative – MacOS X, already out there.
Oh well, they can keep their $299 computers, with the $400 AOL rebate – its the old story, with every good thing, there is a bad thing; cheap computer, crap quality and privacy intrusion. Higher priced computer, Mac, better quality and a company that respects privacy.
Yes, and people will continue to buy cheap, low-quality products, because they are consumers…
instead of informed-people-who-buy-things-that-they-NEED, and Microsoft will collect the profits…
and yes, Apple does respect privacy….
you have even more choice with an open-source OS…
Yes, and people will continue to buy cheap, low-quality products, because they are consumers…
instead of informed-people-who-buy-things-that-they-NEED, and Microsoft will collect the profits…
Well, for me, I don’t care if they choose to run Windows, I just don’t want to hear them complain about the choice they made; they made their bed, now they’ll just have to sleep it in.
For me, before I made the ‘big switch’ to Apple, I looked at all the possibilities, all the vendors that were out there, compared prices, features, quality, reviews. There is nothing stopping Joe and Jane Average from doing the same with a computer, – heck you seem them put more effort into buying a car, you would think that for a machine that’ll set them back NZ$1000, they just might want to spend a little time ‘comparing the models’ as they do with, like I said, cars, tvs etc.
and yes, Apple does respect privacy….
you have even more choice with an open-source OS…
True, but realistically, the only real option for the end user is Apple, but atleast with Apple, they aren’t anti-opensource; want to run opensource software on their OSS, go right ahead, want to provide an opensource alternative to a Mac application, no worries. Atleast in the Apple world, third parties aren’t ruthless crushed or badmouthed; and in some cases, such as Camino and Firefox, they’re helped and encouraged.
“True, but realistically, the only real option for the end user is Apple”
True, the reason for this is people are NOT being educated about the open-source options, I have heard good things about Ubuntu, PC-BSD, DesktopBSD, but you’ll never hear about these options in the media, because its not about sales (for people writing open-source software), its about almost development, and building connections, thats just my opnion of course..
Dell, HP, along with Microsoft, do not want the consumer to use anything other than Windows…
and I think there should be a stronger effort on the open-source end to build an OS for people from a Windows point and click envrionment, so the transition isnt so rough for those who are not programmers, and network admins….
Yeah, when people who refuse to use ahything other than Windows complain, they only did it to themselves…
They should read the manual, knwo what I mean? Mac OS X by the way is an excellent choice for an OS….
Personally, if there were to be a ‘viable alternative’ on the x86 platform (excluding MacOS X as the hardware and software and bundled exclusively together), PC-BSD, IMHO has the best chances – stable drive API, well documented kernel and user land, a single distribution base on which the whole system is built around.
With Linux, there is hype, and to a certain degree, fanboyism, which one could say, holds PC-BSD back. What PC-BSD requires is more evangelism and more promotion to ATI and Nvidia about the merits of providing drivers for PC-BSD, given how ‘complete’ things are in PC-BSD.
I’m with FreeBSD since R4.9 in servers and workstations, so I don’t care about MS… I moved to *NIX because of things like this…
Has Microsoft lost a significant number of users for this? No
Oh, I agree that it won’t be significant. I wasn’t trying to argue it would, however every little bit helps.
You don’t OWN that copy of XP you bought, just the RIGHT to USE it per the EULA. Meaning MS can do whatever they want to protect THEIR software investment. While I agree that calling home everyday to legitamize your already legit copy of XP is extreme, there is nothing that can be done, MS isn’t going to just turn around and stop checking.
Actually I _do_ own the copy. I do however not own the copyrights, but the copy _is_ mine to do with as _I_ please. I can even resell the copy, though of course I cannot create copies of the copy. I didn’t buy that right, but I did buy the copy, and I do own the copy. I just down own the copyright (Ophavsret).
No, you don’t own the copy, you own a limited license to *use* a copy, provided you comply with everything in the licence. If you don’t use it how microsoft want’s you to use it, legally you have to STOP using *their* software. Merely having a licence to use, vs owning something is quite a bit different. You should *actually* read the licence that you paid for..
And also, you can’t do with it as you please. You may not transfer certain copies of windows to another computer. You may not reverse engineer it. You may not copy it. And also, microsoft can update or change your licence whenever they want.
This may be true in USA, but not in Denmark.
Legally I can do whatever I want in my own home with the software. I am not allowed to distribute the software, but apart from that they cannot limit me.
The Microsoft EULA is mostly void in Denmark.
I believe modding PlayStations are illegal in USA. Well, it’s perfectly legal in Denmark – just remember that the warranty is void when you do it. The same goes for software – you can do whatever you want (except for making copies and distributing those) – but if you make OS X work on non-Mac Intels, then don’t expect support.
I do not own the _rights_ to the software – but I do own the copy.
I agree that one should read the licenses. And my rights cannot be removed according to Danish law. And according to Danish law I _do_ own the copy. I don’t own the copyright, but I sure as hell own the f–king copy.
Apple EULA is equally void. And if you use some kind of copyprotection in your product (let’s say a DVD movie), you are obligated to help me circumvent it, in case I need to make a backup copy or use the disk in another system.
WGA is optional
that is all
WGA is not optional if you want to continue to receive updates
This is one of the main reasons I have Linux (Kanotix) on my desktop and laptop…my wife’s computer is next. I do not understand why I must continue to deal with MS when I purchased the software. I understand EULA and the fact that I am just being allowed to use it, but let me do with it as I please and I am fine. I tried to upgrade my computer and immediately had to call MS. I then removed the hardware, didn’t like it, had to call again. Why? Why do they need this information? Why do they care? At what point do they stop reactivating for me? To heck with it….for me Linux, while more difficult to set up at times, make perfect sense.
“Actually I _do_ own the copy.”
Sure, that’s what the actual law says (in most countries) but it’s not what big business want you to think it says. “You dont own it, you lease it”, “You dont own that CD, you license the right to listen to it” etc etc blah blah.
It’s all bullsh1t of course but it has worked out pretty nicely for them so far.
Well, it’s working less and less well for them.
I wonder if these “piracy protection schemes” (especially rootkits and solutions like that) are legal at all according to Danish law. Sony’s rootkit was basically a violation of the terror laws. It was basically electronical terror (everything can be defined as terror with the new laws).
I don’t usually question why MS does things. But I frequently – and this time also – question the way they do it. For instance, regarding this WGA thingie… hell, I can’t even count how many times I’ve heard from genuine windows-using people that they were told that they are pirates. I smiled at them, until the day when I also experiened it. I use about as much windows as linux, and when I wanted to do my monthly update (I usually don’t update more frequently than that) it just told me I can’t since my copy can’t be validated anymore. Man, I was pissed. If I’d use a pirated copy and I couldn’t manage to get rid of the validation, then I’d say ok, I have to bear this since I didn’t pay. But when it’s about a genuine copy, then just f*ck off my face and get lost ! And don’t tell me they can’t do it, since they [MS] are always spoken of as if they had the most clever people on this planet, and also don’t tell me about bug-free software, I’m fed up with the topic till my ears.
I don’t care if they bug “pirates” [let’s not get into who and why uses non-legit copies despite having genuine disks], but if they also nag the “good guys”, then they can just rot in peace.
Let’s not forget: msft was not exactly forthcoming about this little venture. I believe the news of WGA was exposed outside of msft.
The WGA is labeled as a “critical security patch” which is grossly misleading. For that matter, the very name “Windows Genuine Advantage” is grossly misleading.
I am sick to death of msft’s sneakiness. Msft has been caught in similar scams dozens of times. A few quick examples: 1) Secretly arranging funding for the scox-scam. 2) Faked video-taped testimony given to the US DOJ. 3) Letters from dead people in yet another rigged astro-turf campaign. 4) Outright theft of stacker code. 5) Several supposedly independant TCO and performance “studies” which turned out to be msft funded.
And I could go on. My point is: what else is “big brother” msft doing that has not been exposed? You know what they say: “just because you’re paranoid, doesn’t mean they’re not out to get you.”
The WGA is labeled as a “critical security patch” which is grossly misleading. For that matter, the very name “Windows Genuine Advantage” is grossly misleading.
I fully agree… also consider the name for Microsoft’s DRM scheme: PlaysForSure…. Kinda ironic when the only point of that DRM scheme is to make sure that it won’t play when they don’t want it to play.
It’s very misleading. They include restrictions and at the same time try to ‘sell’ these restrictions to the customer as enhancements to make the customer experience better.
It’s like putting a big chain around someone’s neck to keep them locked and then making him/her believe it’s actually jewellery and that they give it because it makes him/her look more beautiful.
Weeeeeelllll…..
It’s like putting a big chain around someone’s neck to keep them locked and then making him/her believe it’s actually jewellery and that they give it because it makes him/her look more beautiful.
I think that came out wrong
Who says it doesn’t make the girl more beautiful?
Don’t underestimate individual taste
——————————
I fully agree… also consider the name for Microsoft’s DRM scheme: PlaysForSure…. Kinda ironic when the only point of that DRM scheme is to make sure that it won’t play when they don’t want it to play.
It’s very misleading. They include restrictions and at the same time try to ‘sell’ these restrictions to the customer as enhancements to make the customer experience better.
That’s right! I’d like to know a bulletproof way to open the eyes of people, so they see what’s going on. One thing is to limit fair use, another thing is to say it makes things better. PlaysForSure? Technology, meant to prevent you from playing.
Windows Genuine Advantage? Well… that one is correct. MS gets all the advantages. And they do own Windows.
it seems pirates can always find a way around protection – meanwhile, those of us with legit copies have to put up with annoyances. especially with windows, there are so many annoyances already…MS should be looking to make things as simple/clean/friendly to use as possible – and definately should not tie security updates to their anti-piracy campaign.
No, Windows is not a virus. Here’s what viruses do:
They replicate quickly – okay, Windows does that.
Viruses use up valuable system resources, slowing down the system as they do so – okay, Windows does that.
Viruses will, from time to time, trash your hard disk – okay, Windows does that too.
Viruses are usually carried, unknown to the user, along with valuable programs and systems. Sigh… Windows does that, too.
Viruses will occasionally make the user suspect their system is too slow (see 2) and the user will buy new hardware. Yup, that’s with Windows, too.
Until now it seems Windows is a virus but there are fundamental differences:Viruses are well supported by their authors, are running on most systems, their program code is fast, compact and efficient and they tend to become more sophisticated as they mature.
So Windows is not a virus.
It’s a bug.
We have a site license for a lot of MS products where I work, and to keep things simple, we just build one machine, save a drive image, and image other machines (quick deployment and quick turn around for maintenance). The stupid validation tool says that our license is not geniune – go figure 🙂
yearning to be free.
…when they become more of an impediment to legitimate users than they are to pirates.
Scenario: user upgrades his motherboard, CPU, etc, transfers his drive to the new hardware, and Windows decides it needs to be re-activated. If he’s unlucky and online activation fails (as it seems to about ten percent of the time, even for legit copies), he then has the choice of wading through telephone activation or downloading a WPA crack. All other things being equal, I know which option I find preferrable.