Remember Framework, the company building a repairable, modular laptop? The first reviews are in, and it seems they’re quite positive – people are wondering why none of the other big OEMs are capable of making a thin, light, and sturdy laptop with this amount of upgradeability and repairability. Linus from Linus Tech Tips made a long, detailed video about the laptop as well, and was so impressed he bought one right away.
I have to say – this laptop has me very, very intrigued. It hits all the right buttons, with the only major uncertainty being just how long a relatively small company like this can stay afloat, to ensure a steady stream of future upgrades. It seems anyone can make new modules and new parts for this laptop, though, so hopefully a community of makers springs up around it as well.
In any event, I’m hoping to get my hands on a review unit, because we really need to know how well Linux runs on this machine.
By making this product a smashing success, maybe ?
Enough small companies that actually went under _because_ their product was a smashing success. If there’s a high demand and they can’t keep up, people will walk away.
At this price though, not sure they’ll go really far. While I do understand that quality requires a reasonable investment for a better longevity, but $3000+ for a maxed out options is still rather expansive for a 13″ laptop. Sorry guys.
If I were to invest into a modular laptop, that would be that kind :
https://www.designswan.com/archives/bento-book-a-modular-laptop-computer-by-rene-woo-ram-lee-for-fujitsu.html
https://tablet-news.com/fujitsu-lifebook-2013-concept-incorporates-a-tablet-for-a-keyboard-phone-and-digital-camera/ (almost 10 years old concept)
Otoh, it’s worth looking at more modest specs, and in that case the price isn’t _that_ hefty (though still quite above the average laptop).
Just like the Fairphone, expensive, average performance, but dude, so reparable/upgradable…
Not saying the Framework laptop worth nothing, but for that price, I’d like a 15.6″ version with mat 4k screen and more module slots, like 3 or 4 each side. And AMD processor (despite the lack of Thunderbolt).
If the case you’re making is that “the price isn’t _that_ hefty”, you’re already on the losing side.
I think the idea of a modular laptop is better on paper than it is in practice. There’s tons of laptops already available where docks are available, ram & storage are upgrade-able, and components like battery, keyboard, camera, etc. are replaceable. This Framework offering makes it a lot more convenient for the average user, does have a few cool aspects to it imo, but doesn’t and can’t address one of the main desires of people wanting a modular laptop based on the limited number of people I’ve talked to about this subject – an upgrade-able cpu. And, there are certainly some drawbacks beyond that.
I’d say this laptop has a decent `nerd score` but it will live or die by the numbers and it’s very hard to justify the `premium` pricing and risk once you remove your feelings from the equation, This is a niche product with niche pricing so the question is will there be enough niche customers to keep the company in business.
jalnl,
As you mentioned they might not be wanting too many sales at this moment. It will come with a customer service nightmare.
Scaling up a company is never easy. But having a reliable product that can be sold at a profit is very valuable. Look at Tesla motors vs … (hmm…) all others(?). They had a good but very expensive Roadster, then a $100k model S, before they became mainstream. If they had “investor money” to burn and sold a $30k model day 1, I don’t think we would see them around for long.
friedchicken,
“an upgrade-able cpu” – the problem being that nowadays the CPU is so integrated with the chipset, that you’d have to replace half the motherboard. Not impossible, but very costly, I’d think.
@jalnl
Or use a SoM (CPU on daughter board) which is common for ARM chips :
https://shop-visionsystems.de/en/system-on-modules/6834-som-am335x.html
https://www.compulab.com/products/computer-on-modules/
https://www.eurocomposant.fr/systemes-embarques/cartes-meres-et-system-on-module/system-on-module-som-x86.html
Kochise,
I agree. It’s the sort of laptop I’d like to have, but such high prices make it a difficult buy, at least for me. I often look to the used market to be able to afford higher end stuff.
It’s not the same model, but I bought a used fujitsu lifebook off ebay for cheap and I was really disappointed to learn that it’s secure boot locked. The reviews said “supports linux”, which leads someone like me to assume it’s unlocked, but in fact it would only run linux distros that are signed under microsoft’s key. I could not boot the mainline kernel, grrr. This is the first x86 hardware I own that’s secure boot locked. It makes me wonder if locking is going to get more prevalent for x86 machines. I think it’s very dangerous precedent for FOSS operating systems to be stuck running under microsoft keys.
One of the major reasons why I bought a Thinkpad is it is user repairable and upgradeable and this is documented. I also have a copy of Lenovo’s service software so I can swap in a new motherboard and duplicate the serial number. Normally you have to get a Leovo service centre to do this.
I was hoping Tom would pick up on this news and I do agree with Kochise that by shipping a successful product they can succeed.
I don’t personally think it has to be that expensive. I also think this should pretty much be the standard way things are done. Last but not least I’m irritated by the likes of Intel obsoleting CPU sockets just so they can sell more stuff and keep prices high. Fast forward ten years and imagine you can drop in a new CPU with a similar or better TDP (and MXM interface GPU)? Imagine the bios is supported so secure boot and TPM support can be upgraded? Unlike today you wouldn’t have Microsoft or Intel prematurely sending your laptop to the scrapyard.
It’s not so much whether they will be a success. It’s the rest of the industry don’t want them to be a success. They will continue to ignore them as much as they can until absolutely forced to by regulators or customers throwing bricks through their office windows. Then again China might go hangaboutaminute and start throwing out clones at half the price. Doubtless that will be something somebody will want to lobby for a ban because it upsets the apple cart. Or Europe? Do we actually still make anything or has Silicon Valley destroyed it all with “competition”?
Oh for a return to the days of customers and citizens not consumers and voters.
Locked secure boot will indeed become more common as Windows 11 starts to roll out. Pretty much what has been feared from the ‘secure’ boot feature since it popped up many years ago. There seems to be only a small list of Linux distributions that support a signed kernel. This is why the Atari VCS was basically hacked into from the start, so that other distributions could run on it.
@Alfman
AFAIK all laptops are sold with an unlocked bootloader. However the IT departments of corporation often use a BIOS password for security purposes. You usually have to replace the motherboard to solve the problem.
Brisvegas,
No, I have admin access to the BIOS.
Windows certification on ARM prohibits manufacturers from allowing the owners to have control over secure boot, I believe this was the case from day 1.
x86 was different, however microsoft discontinued its former windows 8 certification requirement requiring x86 secure boot to be under owner control. The requirement was added to appease the public amid all the pushback, but with windows 10 they reneged and manufacturers can restrict secure boot. Honestly I was hoping I’d never come across it in the wild 🙁
@Alfman
How regulators have not landed on the industry like a ton of bricks I do not know. Microsoft and Intel have a lot to answer for what with products broken by opportunistic shortcuts and shady business practice.
Another reason why I bought a Thinkpad is I can switch stuff on and off in the BIOS. I goofed a bit as the one I have didn’t have secure boot and Lenovo refused to update the BIOS even when it was in support. But this is all by the by. The fact the industry can msucle secure boot and TMP when it suits the industry not to mention the dependency on Microsoft to issue certificates is a huge DO NOT DO, What in God’s name has happened to people? Back in the day they wouldn’t have got away with stuff like this.
I’m curious what is driving this “management right to manage”. Where is this doctrine of arbitrary decision making and dependency coming from? I’m just old enough to remember the days when stuff by default was repairable and repaired and when organic farming was largely the default. Now things are swinging back in the other direction while some people and organisations resist this. Hopefully fast=track MBA’s and marketers will get a sharp pull on the lead too.
@Holly B
“How regulators have not landed on the industry like a ton of bricks I do not know. Microsoft and Intel have a lot to answer for what with products broken by opportunistic shortcuts and shady business practice.”
Most politicians and judged are technically illiterate. They simply can’t understand the issues involved.
Australia has now made STEM degrees much cheaper than humanities and law degrees. The government is trying to create more technically literate graduates. It will take a few decades to flow through the system. Former Australian Prime Minister (1996-2007) John Howard admitted he didn’t even know how to send an email.
@Brisvegas
In addition to politicians and judges being technically illiterate, there’s also plenty of financial motivation to stay that way. It’s not an accident, oversight or ignorance that explains the lack of action, it’s a consequence of the world we’ve created for ourselves.
Intel made a slotted SoC x86 card for laptops.. Nobody wanted it.
Which one ? Some high-end laptops uses desktop CPUs though…
I really like the look of this, I would go as far as saying if I was currently in the market for a new laptop I would probably get one. Excellent bit of kit.
The internal setup is very nice but the “Expansion Cards” gimmick left a sour taste. Those are just usb dongles, DONGLES!
What do you want, ISA cards ? It’s USB 3.2 with Thunderbolt. You can plug a full dock on each of them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pc31L3zJiaU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GosNZmg3e8s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlMGDRbnC0k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rv3ipNBFxDo
I do have a USB-C dock that do almost everything and this turned my laptop into a full desktop PC. So to speak :
https://www.amazon.com/OKX-Display-Adapter-Charging-Transfer/dp/B08DHKMQ1D/
Maybe try this one instead :
https://www.amazon.com/BeanShells-MOTOROLA-Cover-Leather-Wallet/dp/B01LY75BVZ/
At least they aren’t dangling dongles 😛 I’d order one if I were in the market for a laptop… AND they had one with a 10 key. Sorry, I require one 😛
There’s really not a better way to do that without making it proprietary, which goes against the very idea of the device. By making it USB-C, they open up the possibility for hackers and tinkerers to make their own modules easily. Consider the alternative, they could have not gone with a modular system at all and this would have been just another laptop, or they could have come up with a fancy system involving some esoteric connector other than USB-C, making it difficult to homebrew, and you’d probably still want to call it a “dongle”.
All expansion ports are USB4, which means USB, DisplayPort, PCIe passthrough, and TB4 are supported.
TB4 isn’t official since they’re still waiting on certification, but it should be coming soon.
They do provide 4 straight through USB C with the laptop. Mechanically being just USB dongles in a fancy case means they are able to be used without the laptop as.
When you have done laptop repairs the Expansion Cards the way they are on the framework do make sense. I have seen a lot of broken USB ports on laptops caused by people being in a hurry and attempting to put their laptop in their bag with mouse or dock or usb storage still plugged in. Yes the worst case that happens with that impacted USB Plug is a crack straight across the motherboard this normally your sold metal USB flash drives are the cause of this. The slot of the Expansion Card stops you from having leveraging on main board so you will break the socket and possible the board in the removable Expansion Card instead of the main board and the port on the main board. Do note if you look close at the pictures the case is intentionally thickened around the Expansion port mounts.
The expansion cards in the framework laptop is really a solution to a common way laptops get broken. Please note the expansion cards in the framework reminds me of the old PCMCIA (PC Card). Yes PCMCIA also had strong mounting around it. Yes it was very rare for a PCMCIA port to broken. Its also been insanely rare for hot swap hard- drive or cdrom drive ports in laptops to be damaged as well. All these things have rails so users have to put them in straight and block force leverage against the main board. Yes the way the slot rails are designed on the expansion cards on the framework is the same you see on laptop hotswap parts for the past 30 years(well and truly tested design here) but it does come with a space consume inside the laptop.
Interesting point the one built in port that is not protected by rails is the 3.5 audio port on the framework. But the 3.5 plug itself is designed to break in case of heavy impact without damaging the port. Remember USB has no rules about how much force a inserted USB can do. USB standard does not define that the plug has to break so it valid to make a USB plug that is basically unbreakable so the weakest part is the socket and the board it connected to this is perfectly to USB specifications. Lot of ways framework laptop is the first laptop I have seen where the ports are design allowing for what the specifications say inserted device could do. The framework laptop expand cards in lots of way that how all laptops should do it. Maybe more laptop makers will a lot of people laughed at the first PCMCIA port and then it came quite common for a while because it made sense and was a port that people working in the field were not breaking.
I’m torn… I am in the market for a new laptop in the coming year or two, and this one fits the bill. I configured my “ideal” version from the DIY edition to save money and avoid needing to pay for a Windows license, and with an i7, 16GB of RAM and a fast 1TB NVMe it came out to $1400. Alright, but theoretically for just $100 more I could *theoretically* (if it was in stock) get an ASUS ROG Flow X13 with the same storage and memory but better (Ryzen) processor, discrete graphics, a touchscreen, better battery life and a Windows license to boot. So as some have mentioned, it is a bit like the Fairphone in that, for the money, you are to some extent trading performance for the sake of supporting a certain philosophy – although in general this is a sexier device and the performance gap isn’t as extreme as with Fairphone.
I have been known to do this tbh… I did buy two(!) comparatively overpriced BlackBerry Android phones just because of the keyboards. Although in that case I was getting immediate gratification from that feature, as opposed to somewhere down the line (when I need to upgrade or repair)…
All in all I think I’ll wait it out a bit, despite my really wanting this company to succeed. Maybe in a year they’ll have a Ryzen option, and supposedly next year’s Ryzen chips will finally offer integrated Navi2 graphics and USB4 (aka Thunderbolt).
OK scratch the comment about better battery life, the ROG Flow only manages around 5-6 hours in reviews, while the Framework is around 8-9 from what I’ve read. Both not that great, but the Framework is significantly better in that regard (which makes sense considering it’s not driving a touchscreen or discrete graphics).
I’ve done this dance before. I’ve purchased cases, smartphones, motherboards, and even some laptops that promised upgradability down the line, only to be stuck with a device with no upgrade path and a bunch of ewaste on my hands. I love the idea, I’m seriously doubtful they’ll be around by the time I want to upgrade, their device today is on older gen intel cpus. The kind of engineering they are doing costs money they must have good backing, but how long before they need a new investment to keep them going? I should note I’m notorious for being wrong in my predictions ( see iphone vs Palm webos), and I really hope I’m wrong but will not be buying today.
The way I see it which sidesteps being right or wrong is just knowing what you want. I’m fine with my Thinkpad in almost every way. Now if the BIOS was updated past the manufacturers whimsical service period, it had an MX graphic slot, and someone sold a more modern CPU which would fit the socket I’d be mostly happy. Taking a closer look there ay be a case for socket hole designs which an accomdate new standards simply by plugging in a new ssocket. A exposed bus which interfaces with a dock can be pretty nifty too. Like, one earlier model Thinkpad dock could accoodate a full size graphics card. If the issues of socket standardisation, internal and external interfacing, and perhaps size and/or position can be worked through my guess is a useful standard could be desgned.
The reason why this isn’t happening is Intel especially discovered they could make extra money off chipsets. Laptop manufacturers have their wheezes too. Obsessions with thinnest and lightest etcetera creates a new custom design every time not compatible with anything but itself and that’s before we get into soldered or glued components.
The question then is give this concept how can the idea be polished and double checked and turned into an idea which ould be implemented? If nothing else it’s a position which can iform and ifluence discussion. Tech people typically don’t do management or marketing or political lobbying very well but thi could be a basis for this. Someone might even make it! Heck, steal the idea!
Agreed. If the solution works for you today, by all means get it and support them. Just don’t buy it for three years from now thinking it will be able to be upgraded.
Bill Shooter of Bul,
It’s the double edged sword of capitalism. On the one hand it rewards efficiency, and on the other it encourages waste. I don’t really know of a great solution. As consumers we “vote with our wallets”, but we’re up against a large imbalance of power and a lot of poor choices with inadequate competition. Furthermore voting with one’s wallet happens in the present, whereas the consequences happen in the future, and this further impedes our ability to make our money spent in the present count. By the time we need upgrades, our money is already spent. There’s no retroactively deciding to withhold the money if the update & upgrade path is a failure. So even if our intention is to upgrade a device down the line, the ability to do so is up to the manufacturers who’s interests are usually misaligned with ours. I think we’re largely dependent on legislators to curb the worst offenders, but with so much corruption in government I don’t really know if there’s much hope there either. We’ll see if right to repair produces any meaningful results in the coming years…
If we are unwilling or unable to solve this in the present, we are creating unsustainable ewaste for future generations. The problem is too many people in the present are thinking “not my problem”.
@Alfman
This is very much the problem of the moment! The media reports the EU is taking a strong stand but the UK over a number of decades (and more so post Brexit with a hard right government in power) has chosen who its friends are. My sense is there has been an uptick in the “loudest voices” most like careerists or young enough not to remember anything better, cocky enough to not see the bigger picture, and cocky enough to think it won’t happen to them.
Let Framework come up with a Ryzen version and a sturdier screen on the next round, and I’m in. Necessarily, that will mean that they’re healthy enough to invest in.