“Disgruntled Solaris users are pushing Sun Microsystems Inc. to decide on the fate of the operating environment on Intel Corp. processors. Sun officials in Palo Alto, Calif., have been going back and forth with the Solaris Intel user base since January, when the company said Version 9 for the x86 architecture was being “deferred” in favor of projects that were more profitable. Now the process seems stuck, and users are getting restless, according to sources familiar with the negotiations between the user community and Anil Gadre, Sun’s vice president of Solaris software.” Read the report at ExtremeTech.
Sun Feels Heat Over x86 Solaris
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli
It’s simple. Start charging for x86 Solaris. If users want it so bad, they’ll pay. What did you expect? Nothing is free. Even GPL open source software. You pay for it in bandwidth, although not directly to the developers.
Perhaps there should just be a “XP home” style edition for end users and leave the charges to the server version instead; that way, more of the Linux/BSD crowd who appreciate free software can get their candy and eat it too. I have solaris 8 and although I have never really had a zippity do wah time with it, just being able to try it for free is something that is a real gem to many IT professionals.
Since Sun is a harcore OS shop, does anybody know why they have never bothered with the user-joe Desktop market? If they are willing to do an Office Suite, why not a full OS for mom and dad?
Obviously, the desktop is a very lucrative market, as Microsoft knows, and a company with Sun’s brand and influence might be successful. Considering how much Scott dislikes Mr Gates, its a bit surprising that sun doesn’t want to play in the desktop market. It can’t be for lack of expertise in OS development, no?
first, i agree, they should charge for the OS. Solaris 9 is server/workstation. There could be no “home” edition. That’s not what its for. If you want a *nix toy, get Linux.
second, sun knows server os, not desktop os. they’re just now switching their default window manager to something user friendly. they may know the lover leverl os development part well, but, their ui team could use some help. java swing is another example. it works, sort of, but is still lacking in many ways, but, is improving.
anyway, that’s just my opinion.
> second, sun knows server os,
> not desktop os. they’re just
> now switching their default
> window manager to something
> user friendly.
Which suggests that being a “server OS” and being “user friendly” does not have to go together.
Of course, this is the way Unix diehards think. Unfourtunately, most people, including most Server Admins, would always prefer a user-friendly tool. That’s why very many web designers prefer Frontpage or Dreamweaver to old-fashioned HTML coding.
Do you notice that Windows Servers are slowly but steadily creeping up on Unix Systems?? Save for Linux, Windows has already pushed Unix out of low-end machines. In the near future when Windows is mature and reliable enough to, say, process Credit Card transactions, its user friendliness will make it more attractive than Unix. Unix would seem like the granda amidst beautiful children.
The more a server platform looks like something the GM has seen, the more it will be used.
So if Sun doesn’t know how to do a good UI, I am afriad they have very litte time to catch up.
That’s why very many web designers prefer Frontpage or Dreamweaver to old-fashioned HTML coding.
The above comment highlights the difference between a commitment to excellence and something less. Stuff like Frontpage might be convenient for the person who formats the content, but the bloated and often buggy code that it produces is anything but “friendly” to the user! A person who takes pride in his work is willing to do the work and produce the best. In case you haven’t noticed, that’s a Good Thing.
And as an online shopper, I consider the Windows-based credit card processing systems that give up my credit card number and other personal information to be quite un friendly!
The problem isn’t the OS, or some undefined buzzword like “user-friendly”. It’s the lazy bums in the service industry who think that the customer owes them a living.
> It’s the lazy bums in the service
> industry who think that the
> customer owes them a living.
Unfourtunately, the “lazy bums” are the target audience for Frontpage, Dreamweaver, Solaris, Win2000 Server, etc. They are the consumers of these technical products that Sun and Microsoft hawk.
See, doing a good job is a nice thing, but a good product doesn’t always or often win. For a business, meeting your customer’s need and getting his dollars so you can continue to stay in business is much more important than being technically impeccable.
So, if most of your customers are “lazy bums”, you must make a product that makes life easy for lazy bums. Unless you are a hobbyst, of course.
> Stuff like Frontpage might
> be convenient for the person
> who formats the content, but
> the bloated and often buggy code
> that it produces is anything
> but “friendly” to the user
Actually, I’d say they work amazingly well for a lot of the things they do. They aren’t good for everything obviously, but they are getting better all the time anyways. In those cases where their perfomance is unsatisfactory, you can always supplement with something else or dive into the code to fix things.
Hey, how many people you know use mod_perl? I don’t know anybody who does, and I work in a hosting Outfit!
On the other hand, the number of people using ASP is innumerable and growing. Are you surprised IIS is gaining ground on Apache?
Do the reality check.
AFAIK, it’s official Sun position – there is only one Solaris. No Desktop, No Home Edition etc.
Other remarks for linux_baby :
Sun is not oriented for mom&pop shops and home users.
Microsoft made its money on business users not on home users. Unix vendors tried to get to desktop business people with X terminals and failed.
Sun is hardware company first of all.
“””Which suggests that being a “server OS” and being “user friendly” does not have to go together.”””
User friendly doesn’t necessarily mean a GUI either.
Latex/Tex is very user friendly (takes about an hour to be proficient at it) but it also lacks a warm fuzzy interface.
“””Of course, this is the way Unix diehards think.”””
Is it? That’s a rather unfounded assumption. Most people I know see it as nice that certain sets of the API/directory tree/commands are the same no matter what platform/vendor you are on.
“””Unfourtunately, most people, including most Server Admins, would always prefer a user-friendly tool. That’s why very many web designers prefer Frontpage or Dreamweaver to old-fashioned HTML coding.”””
Most major outfits, I know would rather develop a CSS or other formatting method and just edit the content.
“””Do you notice that Windows Servers are slowly but steadily creeping up on Unix Systems?? Save for Linux, Windows has already pushed Unix out of low-end machines.”””
Most UNIX vendors don’t sell systems on the low-end because the real money is in service contracts.
“””In the near future when Windows is mature and reliable enough to, say, process Credit Card transactions, its user friendliness will make it more attractive than Unix. Unix would seem like the granda amidst beautiful children…So if Sun doesn’t know how to do a good UI, I am afriad they have very litte time to catch up.”””
Have you used Solaris lately? It’s easy enough to set up, and it’s package/system manager are pretty nice as well.
Or on AIX: SMIT is a very nice tool which helps take the mystique out of Administration.
Since Sun is a harcore OS shop, does anybody know why they have never bothered with the user-joe Desktop market? If they are willing to do an Office Suite, why not a full OS for mom and dad?
Obviously, the desktop is a very lucrative market, as Microsoft knows, and a company with Sun’s brand and influence might be successful. Considering how much Scott dislikes Mr Gates, its a bit surprising that sun doesn’t want to play in the desktop market. It can’t be for lack of expertise in OS development, no?
—
Nope, that isn’t the case. Just look at the amount of money Microsoft needs to invest into Windows to keep it affloat vs. the amount the receive back in profits from the product. They make very, very little money off Windows. This is due to the fact that Microsoft tries to make Windows for everyone thus pushing up the number of lines of code, thus, complexity increases, thus, more costs are imposed onto Microsoft. The big money spinner is Microsoft Office and the surrounding products.
Now, with Solaris 9 + Ximian Gnome 2.0, that would be a good combination. SUN could then buy out Corel for $400million, port all the software over, and beleive me, Bryce would be a great addition for those wanting to do high end 3d work on a SUN Blade 2000 Workstation. Sell Solaris 9 + Ximian Gnome for a nominated amount, say, $US70, then sell the Corel range at a fair price and/or bundle it with products, say, a Desktop pack made up of a SUN Blade 100 + Solaris 9 + Ximian Gnome + Wordperfect Suite + Corel Draw + Corel Photopaint.
Actually, I’d say they work amazingly well for a lot of the things they do. They aren’t good for everything obviously, but they are getting better all the time anyways. In those cases where their perfomance is unsatisfactory, you can always supplement with something else or dive into the code to fix things.
Hey, how many people you know use mod_perl? I don’t know anybody who does, and I work in a hosting Outfit!
On the other hand, the number of people using ASP is innumerable and growing. Are you surprised IIS is gaining ground on Apache?
Do the reality check.
—
based on what? You can run ASP on *nix. Obviously you’ve never heard of Chill!soft ASP for UNIX. Maybe YOU should do a reality check.
As for IIS, the morons who choose to use IIS are the same type of people that ran Enron into the ground, you know, the Kenith Lays of the world who went out and authorised each employee to get a dual processor workstations with $US2000 TFT screens. Completely unnecessary, yet, still bought.
It is time companies realise it is their duty to run the company on the smell of an oily rag, that is, reduce costs, both labour and capital, and increase returns to shareholders via dividends.
> based on what? You can run
> ASP on *nix. Obviously you’ve
> never heard of Chill!soft
> ASP for UNIX
And how many people you know use Chill!soft or a similar variant? How many hosting companies you know, or can check, offer ASP on Unix as an option to their customers? To my knowledge, not many. Obviously, there isn’t any huge advantage there. Its like running Microsoft Office on Wine. If you are going to run an ASP shop, it makes sense to choose Windows-hosting, which is precisely what most people do.
Unfourtunately, the “lazy bums” are the target audience for Frontpage, Dreamweaver, Solaris, Win2000 Server, etc. They are the consumers of these technical products that Sun and Microsoft hawk.
First of all, the “target audience” buzzwords might be of use to television executives, but we’re discussing computer software.
If you’re trying to say that those four very different products are all for the exact same demographic, then I can say with good cause that you simply don’t know what you’re talking about. The job types that work in deploying network operating systems are radically different from the job types that build web pages. And more to the point, the kinds of professionals who deploy Solaris are quite different from the people who typically choose Windows. You’re trying to lump Solaris together with unrelated things, which is a logical blunder. I’m not buying it.
See, doing a good job is a nice thing, but a good product doesn’t always or often win.
That philosophy might work for you so long as you confine yourself to selling useless geegaws to slack-jawed couch potatoes with money to burn. But you might not be so receptive to having an urgent 911 call interrupted while Windows reboots, or to receiving a lethal dose of medicine just because somebody threw an extra digit into the code! Clearly there is a need for excellence.
Hey, how many people you know use mod_perl? I don’t know anybody who does … On the other hand, the number of people using ASP is innumerable [sic] and growing.
This is an excellent example of a straw man argument. The real story is found when I examine why you aren’t brave enough to compare ASP to PHP!
Bottom line: Sun does not have to produce products for dummies.
(1) “Focus shifts” that leave the user base high and dry.
> The job types that work in
> deploying network operating
> systems are radically different
> from the job types that
> build web pages.
That’s besides the point really. The point I was making is that people -doctors, system admins, web designers, politicians, Linus – generally like tools that make their job easier. I personally find Unix easier to work with, but very many people don’t.
> And more to the point, the kinds
> of professionals who deploy
> Solaris are quite different
> from the people who typically
> choose Windows.
They are not, because most of those people, unless they are old, lazy or unteacheable, still do a lot of work on Windows machines as well.
The fact is: Windows, as presently constituted, would probably be a bad choice for heavy computing jobs where Solaris would typically shine. Microsoft is an ambitious and resourceful company, so they will probably close that perfomance gap sooner or later.
What happens then? If you had a system that was as solid as solaris, but a lot more easier to manage, what do you think people will choose? The easier one, which is why Unix Companies like Sun should take UI design seriously if they don’t microsoft to kick them off the datacenter.
BTW, unix admins tend to be arrogant, pompous, expensive and unapprochable. The business types would certainly love to kick their butt!!
> I examine why you aren’t
> brave enough to compare
> ASP to PHP!
I’m not really comparing anything. I am certainly not saying that ASP is my personal choice. If you are saying that PHP is great, I would agree, but very many people still use ASP. People do use PHP but let’s face it, php isn’t half-as-popular as ASP.
Look at Apache. Its been around for years, but it still doesn’t have a nice GUI interface. IIS is new: you can write scripts to automate everything like you would with Apache, and you can still use a great GUI kit if you want.
if Sun don’t want to continue Solaris for IA,
why they have to do so ….
in http://wwws.sun.com/software/star/staroffice/6.0/get/download.html page it has download link for “Solaris[tm] Intel”
generally speaking, i’ve no much idea on this.
just saw this website and got a curious.
(also, this post is my personal opinion. not related to my work place)
OK, it’s obvious that you don’t know what you’re talking about. Clearly you never have seen a UN*X shop, much less worked in one. Your notions about the business world are laughable, and authoritative sources like Netcraft debunk your claims about IIS/ASP dominance.
I don’t know who you’re trying to fool, kid. It sure ain’t working on me!
I’ll leave you with this to ponder: At the ripe old age of 20, Linus Torvalds was so lazy that he wrote an operating system from scratch, so he could access the computers at the university he attended. Linus went to that length rather than deal with Windows. So much for “old, lazy or unteacheable”! And Comanche.
I find your discussion quite interesting, ín order to understand:
>>Clearly you never have seen a UN*X shop, much less worked in one.
what exactly is a UN*X shop?
FLorian lutz
Florian, UN*X is a short way to refer to all systems that operate in the general UNIX paradigm. That includes the various UNIX flavors, Linux, FreeBSD etc.
In the context of my statement, for example there are plenty of Solaris shops that don’t have a single Windows computer in the whole house — that’s not uncommon in that paradigm. Obviously linux_baby hasn’t seen a UN*X shop, or he/she would realize just how ridiculous his/her statements are! If I were to venture an educated guess, I would say that linux_baby is an entry-level salesperson whose ignorance has raised the ire of at least a couple of knowledgeable customers.
Yeah, but if you look at sunsolve.sun.com, under recomended patches, and scroll down, you see Solaris 9 for intel, with sun Console Management edition-
Personally, I use both, I really love it on the Sparc, but if I am developing something that has the potential to touch network sockets, it is nice to have a farm of x86 boxes sitting around, waiting to get their @ss handed to them by my sometimes horrid code
” Do you notice that Windows Servers are slowly but steadily creeping up on Unix Systems?? Save for Linux, Windows has already pushed Unix out of low-end machines. In the near future when Windows is mature and reliable enough to, say, process Credit Card transactions, its user friendliness will make it more attractive than Unix. Unix would seem like the granda amidst beautiful children. ”
Well, for all intents and purposes– LINUX IS a UNIX. Close enough, anyway. As for Windows someday being more reliable/mature/friendly than UNIX– They keep saying that will happen with every release. I’ll believe it when I see it. Fact is, I would not step in a plane auto-piloted with W2000. Not now; probaably not ever.
Sensible people use LINUX or Mac OS X. Proprietary, closed-source, legacy, non-UNIX systems, like Windows, are a relics of the past, like DOS and COBOL. They are not the future.
Of course, this is the way Unix diehards think. Unfourtunately, most people, including most Server Admins, would always prefer a user-friendly tool. That’s why very many web designers prefer Frontpage or Dreamweaver to old-fashioned HTML coding.
ouch, the good old myth that a GUI is friendlier and faster than a CLI.
Well, it’s not. It might be easier to get over the initial learning curve but usually tends to get in the way. Most unix tools, which may look very confusing and illogical in the beginning, look like they do for a reason.
I worked for for a web design company for a while as a programmer, none of the designer would even touch Frontpage, Dreamweaver yes, some did.
Pretty much all sysadmins I know, both Unix and Windows, end up using the CLI more and more when they have the option to do so over a GUI interface.
Sensible people use LINUX or Mac OS X. Proprietary, closed-source, legacy, non-UNIX systems, like Windows, are a relics of the past, like DOS and COBOL. They are not the future.
But what about Proprietary, closed-source, legacy, UNIX systems then??? 😉
The tool you use should depend on what you want and what you’re happy to work with with. a win2k box isn’t too bad a server, as long as you’re not expecting five nines. Place were I work got several windows (NT and 2K) and quite a few linux servers, plus OpenBSD on the firewall. All works together like a charm. doubt we upgrade past win2k though
Hey Speed, why are you mad and going ad-hominem? Relax guy, this is just a discussion about OSes, not about Jerusalem.
> Clearly you never have seen
> a UN*X shop, much less worked
> in one. there are plenty of Solaris
> shops that don’t have a single
> Windows computer in the
> whole house
You are damn right, I have never seen or worked in a Unix Shop in that sense. My own experience has been limited to cross-platform environments. We once had an employee who had spent his entire life in your Unix shop. He had worked for both IBM and AT&T, and must have known a whole lot of important things. But other than Solaris, he knew next to nothing. No Linux, not much BSD, no windows. He wouldn’t even try either, prefering instead to spend his day cursing on what he should be learning. Just like a horse, ever going the same route. Got the boot after one week, of course.
Another one was a FreeBSD freak. He had no clue about windows, and claimed to hate Linux with a passion. His mission was to migrate everything to FreeBSD, even the co-located machines whose OS had been chosen by the clients. Got the boot too.
So, the conclusion? Being a Unix-only geek might have been cool in 1980, or if you are 50 years old. But it isn’t realistic in 2002. If you are going to be in the workforce for 15 or more years, it certainly pays to be more open-minded about Platforms.
> If I were to venture an educated
> guess, I would say that
> linux_baby is an entry-level
> salesperson whose ignorance has
> raised the ire of at least a
> couple of knowledgeable customers.
Eew!!
What are you, though? I’m frankly curious.
<sarcasm>Oh I see now, linux_baby’s brand of OS xenophobia is sooooooooo much more superior to that of two people who he/she hates!</sarcasm>
So, the conclusion? Being a Unix-only geek might have been cool in 1980, or if you are 50 years old. But it isn’t realistic in 2002.
on the contrary, You can get disgustingly well-paid jobs doing unix and unix only if you want to (and you don’t even have to look especially hard). Of course that doesn’t validate the zealot-thinking of the 2 examples you gave, but that is more of a personality problem they might have.
You should know the Unix market is very well alive and kicking – with the lower end being taken over by linux and windows.
Funny thing, In Uni I met these Unix gurus/teachers who not even seen windows. Was running fvwm95 and they thought, ‘ah, that’s a quite nice window manager’. When I told them it was fvwm95 and it copied the looks of win95, they looked and aid: ‘Aaah, so that’s how it looks like, not bad’. MS and Windows family was just not at all on their radar screens.
“But what about Proprietary, closed-source, legacy, UNIX systems then??? 😉 ”
1) do they offer a clear advantage.
2) do you trust the vendor to keep them current (unlike what, say, Be Inc. did with BeOS)?
just saw this article on eetimes: http://eetimes.com/sys/news/OEG20020610S0067
Anticipating a sweeping shift by chip designers from Sun Solaris workstations to Intel-based Linux systems, Cadence Design Systems Inc. has announced plans to port all of its chip-design tools to 32-bit versions of Linux by early 2003. The company said will also port some of its physical verification tools to 64-bit versions of Linux by June 2003.
Sun Microsystems Inc. dismissed predictions of a dramatic shift by chip designers toward Linux, though the company is now briefing users on plans to roll out its first general- purpose Linux server.
More than three-quarters of Cadence’s IC design tools are now sold to users of the Solaris operating system on Sun workstations. But the company anticipates that 15 percent to 20 percent of its IC tools sales will be for Intel-based Linux systems in the next 12 months, growing to 30 percent to 60 percent by 2005, said Craig Silver, vice president of marketing for IC solutions at Cadence.
The reason that ASP is gaining popularity is that it is easy to do so more lazy people are using it. If you want real power, then I would suggest running Apache and Tomcat as a server and using JSPs instead. Or script using Python, PHP, or any number of superior technologies.
ASP and ASP.NET are to web development what edlin was to word processors.
Sorry, I’ve just got to comment on this one as well.
“Of course, this is the way Unix diehards think. Unfourtunately, most people, including most Server Admins, would always prefer a user-friendly tool. That’s why very many web designers prefer Frontpage or Dreamweaver to old-fashioned HTML coding. ”
I would much rather be stuck in a Unix command line versus a Windows server any day. Why? I can write much more powerful scripts and automate a good portion of my work under Unix. Windows’ ability doesn’t even come close. It borderlines pathetic.
If you had said that most MCSE Admins would prefer a user-friendly tool I would have agreed with you. They don’t know anything else (many of them don’t anyway).
> I would much rather be stuck
> in a Unix command line versus
> a Windows server any day. Why?
> I can write much more powerful
> scripts and automate a good portion
> of my work under Unix.
You are right on the money, and I agree 100%.
> Windows’ ability doesn’t
> even come close. It
> borderlines pathetic.
Not really, not anymore. You could say Unix is still far ahead here, but in my experience, Windows Scripting is no longer close to pathetic. If anything, it is improving tremendously. MS is marching towards headless servers, no doubt about that. A lot of admin work on Windows servers can now be script-automated, although the tools aren’t always as easy to find, or as obvious, as on Unix.
If Windows 2000 and XP are anything to go by, Microsoft has been working real hard to make windows much better than itself. Please don’t scoff. Since MS is serious about ruling the bankend -whatever that ends up being, we could end up in a situation where Windows acquires most of the nice features you would normally find on a Unix System.
> If you had said that most MCSE Admins
> would prefer a user-friendly tool
> I would have agreed with you. They
> don’t know anything else (many of
> them don’t anyway).
Do you notice how huge the MCSE population now is? To beat the competition in the long run, Unix systems must also acquire whatever it is MCSEs love about Windows. With MS getting a good portion of the Server Market, MCSE professionals are here to stay anyway. It can’t hurt to bring some of that sizeable MCSE crowd into the Unix Fold. Unless Unix want’s to join Novell Netware.
BakaSmack, I hear what you’re saying. But I think the person who you’re trying to enlighten is more interested in sophomoric posturing than a real discussion. The kid doesn’t have a clue about what UNIX is, how it’s used or who uses it, and is more interested in telling us all about that ignorance than anything else. You’d have a better time teaching a pig to sing.
BTW I got my MCSE some 5 years ago. But it doesn’t define my life! Most MCSEs who I meet have managed to pass the tests, but haven’t learned a thing about the principles behind them. I give full credit to my hands-on experience with UNIX systems for making me a skilled NT administrator, MCSE or no.
Windows scripting pales in comparison, period.
Do you notice how huge the MCSE population now is?
Does it occur to you that the reason the MCSE population is growing is that an increasingly large number of companies are marketing MCSE programs to people? How many ads do you hear every day promising “big opportunities” or “financial rewards” for getting your MCSE? A hundred? They steal people’s money (you can take the tests for a few hundred, but the schools charge up to $20,000.00) They crank the students through and those students are no more prepared to be sys admins than my butt. Well, rather less qualified I would think.
Note, I’m not putting down people who are duped into these programs, but rather the owners of the schools who are taking advantage of people.
I know that there are people who get certifications who are highly skilled and qualified (speed sounds like such a person). I’m just saying that they are a small minority. MCSEs are nothing more than a pipe dream to a large percentage of people who get them.
Unless Unix want’s to join Novell Netware.
Speed was right, you don’t know what you’re saying. The reason that Novell has failed is not because the product is bad (it’s actually much more stable than Windows and Groupwise is much better than Outlook and is not suseptable to all the Outlook viruses) or many people have MCSEs, it is purely because 90% of their upper management are drooling retards whose mental abilities rival that of a lump of cheese. The marketing department being more skilled at shaping toenails than selling a product also doesn’t help.
Linux and BSD are not suseptable to these weaknesses (mostly because MBA parasites haven’t found a way to leech off of them yet) so I don’t think we need to fear a MS takeover anytime soon.
Just for the record, Novell still makes quite a bit of money off Netware every quarter.
Man, I think I’ve insulted every group of people in the IT industry with this post. My apologies. I’m going to bed.
Thanks, man! It’s so refreshing to see a post that isn’t contrary.
Back when I was studying for my MCSE, I took exactly one course, and realized that that money would have been better spent on hardware for a test environment to study with. While I took the class, a lot of people were talking about a website called braindump.com or something like that. Apparently the idea was that people who just took a test would tell others how to cheat at them. I thought that was bad!
Well, results speak for themselves. The only test that I had to do over was the one that I took the class for — I missed it by 1 point. When I studied on my own, I passed it and every one after it with high marks. Not only that, but my practice really paid off later on. I knew stuff that other people were guessing about. So there’s no substitute for learning.
As for Netware, my thought was that while it’s a great file & print server, it simply can’t compare to UNIX. It’s like the difference between a butter knife and a Swiss Army knife, but moreso. And while you can cut butter with a Swiss Army knife, it’s not Victorinox’s goal to capture the butter knife market. Same with UNIX and Netware. UNIX systems typically provide advanced application services. Often you’ll see Netware doing file & print, and UNIX hosting client/server apps all in the same shop, each with an individual purpose.
I agree with you 100% about Windows’ inroads into the file & print market. I’ve seen it first-hand, more times than I care to remember. Time and time again the clueless managers justify the cost of Windows with the assurance that “because Windows runs itself” that they can make it up by getting rid of several FTEs. And time and time again the same clueless managers hire consultants at 4x the price of a FTE to do the work that wasn’t planned for!
A good example of how poor Windows scripting is in comparison to UNIX comes when you try to copy, move or delete a user profile. This is a task that’s common in large environments, especially where TSE or Citrix is used. It can become quite cumbersome when you have hundreds or thousands of users! I’m not talking about simply doing a file copy — that will not work with profiles. What I’m talking about is automating what you do when you right-click on “My Computer”, go to the “User Profiles” tab and perform actions there. Just try to find any part of the Windows API that addresses this!
>The reason that Novell has failed
>is not because the product is bad
>(it’s actually much more stable
>than Windows and Groupwise
Sure it was, but isn’t that a philosophical point? Having the better technology is no guarantee that you will survive or beat inferior competition. The management at Novell might have been drools by your judgement, but Novell did have 75 percent of the Market when MS started out in the Server business. Do they still have that? No.
And no sir, it isn’t all about marketing either. Believe it or not, very many people liked NT more than Netware. I happened to have taught Netware 3 and 4 versus NT 4.0, and only the occasional student prefered Netware to NT! Why?
No doubt, NT sucked in more ways than one, but with NT, Microsoft for once demonstrated that ordinary people can actually graduate into server admins! We all crave for respect and job security, so it is understandable that the kernel-compiling types should hate that sort of thing. Unfourtunately, most people are ordinary folks, not hardcore geeks. Microsoft knows that, and uses it to full advantage, loud-mouthed Unix geeks notwithstanding.
I agree with your point about schools and MCSEs. BTW, even a Solaris or Redhat Certification does not guarantee much either.
I agree with you. It is the uneducated that make Windows popular.
And no sir, it isn’t all about marketing either.
I disagree. It is all about marketing, image and PR.
Believe it or not, very many people liked NT more than Netware.
The only thing people liked about NT was the GUI. It doesn’t have better scalability, stability, performance, etc. It’s just prettier and easier to use. For people who were sys admins before the advent of NT, this fact was obvious within moments of installing it.
One place I worked for just as NT 4 came out replaced all their Netware servers with NT 4 servers. Within a month they switched back. NT 4 just couldn’t handle the load.
I happened to have taught Netware 3 and 4 versus NT 4.0, and only the occasional student prefered Netware to NT! Why?
That’s because NT is easier for a novice to figure out. NT, like a sycophant, is there gladhanding new users with a false sense of progression. They can do something and visibly see a message box saying it was done, so they feel they are “learning”.
I would rather have a knowledgeable sys admin though, regardless of which NOS I’m running, than someone who can “figure things out” because there’s a cute GUI available.
Please note that I’m not saying the GUI is bad, I’m just saying it is the key to NT’s popularity.
Novell did have 75 percent of the Market when MS started out in the Server business. Do they still have that? No.
What, pray tell does “Server” (the proper noun) mean? /me rolls eyes
Stuff like theat makes me cringe, because it’s a clear sign of how clueless the writer is. When a person fails to define terms, all conclusions are meaningless.
Netware was (and for the most part still is) strictly file and print. Back when LANs started popping up, that was the state of the art. By the mid-90s that sector was nearing saturation. And new technologies like client/server applications were emerging, creating entirely new markets.
Back then NT held promise as an inexpensive alternative to UNIX as a client/server platform. But it really, really sucked at file & print. (IMHO it still does.) The smart money bought NT for stuff like midsize databases and RAS, while the idiots bought NT to be “file & print for dummies”.
And no sir, it isn’t all about marketing either. Believe it or not, very many people liked NT more than Netware. I happened to have taught Netware 3 and 4 versus NT 4.0, and only the occasional student prefered Netware to NT! Why?
Why? Maybe that’s what they were taught! /me rolls eyes some more
Since the class was about one versus the other, you must have taken sides. And based on the ignorant things that you have said thus far, I would advise your students to demand their money back. Had you done a fair representation of both sides, and let them make up their own minds, the numbers wouldn’t be so biased.
No doubt, NT sucked in more ways than one, but with NT, Microsoft for once demonstrated that ordinary people can actually graduate into server admins!
Graduate, yes. But being able to do the job comes from knowledge and experience, not a GUI desktop. Hence the term “paper MCSE”.
We all crave for respect and job security, so it is understandable that the kernel-compiling types should hate that sort of thing.
Speak for yourself.
What you said a total non sequitur. You’re implying something that you can’t prove. The truth is that you can’t have everything that you want. The only way to respect is to earn it.
Unfourtunately, most people are ordinary folks, not hardcore geeks. Microsoft knows that, and uses it to full advantage, loud-mouthed Unix geeks notwithstanding.
There you go, name-calling again. Looks like jealousy to me!
You can call names, and I can compile kernels. Does that make me better than you? Well…yes! The fact that you don’t like it is your problem. Maybe if you had worked more and whined less, you could have run with the big boys.