Libranet Debian Linux is back in the ring, this time as a heavyweight desktop contender.
Debian on Steroids III: Libranet 3.0
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Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
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that was an impressive review.
an in-depth breakdown of the libranet system, and even hints to get stuff working !
more of that type of review are needed on this site.
i might get a spare machine to try it on
“i might get a spare machine to try it on”
But first you need (quite) some spare cash
No offence meant, I want to buy it myself.
don’t you have to pay for access to this os?
I don’t get this Distro. They dont give you no cutting edge packages, and the packages that it does have come from debian. It’s really no different that just plain old Debian except for the Admin tool. I ask you is that worth 80 dollars
For guys like you and me who are reading this website, the 80 dollars probably doesn’t buy us much as we can configure most things for ourselves. For Joe Everyman, all the extra admin tools that Libranet has added can make the difference of a successful or unsuccessful Linux experience. These are the people they are trying to market to.
I understand that, don’t get me wrong I have used and tried the free version of Libranet and it worked. How ever if im gonna lay out 80 dollars for a GNU/Linux distro I want cutting edge oput of the box. Something like Xandros.
i personally think its a ripp off..your better off getting ubuntu or some other FREE debian distro
“For guys like you and me who are reading this website, the 80 dollars probably doesn’t buy us much as we can configure most things for ourselves. For Joe Everyman, all the extra admin tools that Libranet has added can make the difference of a successful or unsuccessful Linux experience. These are the people they are trying to market to.”
Actually when they started (1999) Debian was really hard to install and configure, even for advanced users, who welcomed an easy and fast install plus the tools.
This days Sarge is really easy to install and configure if you have a minimum of linux experience.
So indeed, Libranet makes more sense for new users (or for old Libranet customers)
But they have to compete with Linspire, Xandros, Ubuntu, Mepis, Kanotix…
libranet has become a bit pricey but i have always been impressed with the “quality” of it, no it isnt bleeding edge but everything always seems to work, and admintool and xadmintool is absolutely fantastic! first time i recompiled my kernel succesfully was by using that tool. It is a well thought out and implemented distro…and is a complete system even if I install on a 300mhz with 64mb of ram all the way up to my 2.0ghz machine! One OS for all the machines you use, even a server! I really do not know how to explain very well but always seems to work well, all loose ends tied up and some great tools to help with the more “techy” stuff and the cool thing is you can still do it old school and those tools arent going to change everything behind your back while your head is turned! And I hate to say it but I am pretty sure libranet would not be tooo upset if you split the cost with someone. I like to think they would probably have someone split it than to not sell a copy! At least I hope so because that is how I was able to afford it in my college days and they have alifelong customer now that as soon as I have the money that is one company/distro that I am happy to give my money to, along with the mothership debian!
nuff said
Quote: “i personally think its a ripp off..your better off getting ubuntu or some other FREE debian distro
”
Speel – stop trolling. I’ve already explained to you on the Libranet forums about the definition of ‘free’ under the GNU GPL. I really suggest you go read the GPL again and stop your trolling. It’s ‘free’ as in ‘speech’, not ‘free’ as in ‘beer’ – please get it right.
Libranet has every right to charge for Libranet and you have no rights to expect their hard work for free. For sure, go try Ubuntu/Kubuntu et al. I don’t think the Libranet community really cares 2c about your comments to be honest, and as others have posted here, many are happy to pay for Libranet because it makes getting Linux (and Debian for that) up and running nice ‘n’ easy, not a chore.
Ubuntu is good in this respect (of ease of setting up) but very limited on a default install. Then there is the question of package compatibility with Debian proper, something which you won’t have a problem with when using Libranet.
For those bitching about Libranet 3 not including the ‘latest’ packages, this is to ensure maximum compatibility with Debian ‘sarge’ when it’s released and not have broken systems. For those that think Sid packages are the bees knees, I suggest you install apt-listbugs and watch what sort of bugs Sid packages have. You’d be very surprised, and imho you’d have to be a fool to include some of the Sid packages in a distro, especially if you want it to be stable and secure.
I’m really getting sick and tired of the new breed of Linux users who want it all for nothing. A quality product takes time and money to produce, think about that. Windows uses most of the BSD networking stack, do I hear people bitching about Windows XP not being free (as in cost)? Nope. So please don’t use that argument with GNU/Linux products.
If you really don’t grok the GPL then email RMS and i’m sure he’ll explain it to you. If you don’t know who RMS is then stop using Linux and go back to Windows.
People happily pay ripoff prices for Windows XP, which has a crap installer, not even totally GUI! Stripped to 640*480, automatically defaults to administrator on first log on and prompts for the password (great security eh?), takes over an hour to install, with several reboots needed for bugger all software installed on your prospective system. Oh, and add that Windows XP takes over 20 minutes to format (full format, not quick format) a 30gb drive, which Libranet 3 (and Linux in general) does in less than a minute. And people pay for Windows XP without bitching! This is what amazes me. Many of those bitching about the price of Libranet are more than likely running dual boot systems with Windows, and I put money on it that the majority of those are using pirated copies of Windows (hence the ‘free’ attitude). As much as I dislike Windows i’ll happily condemn software piracy.
Dave
Ubuntu is good in this respect (of ease of setting up) but very limited on a default install. Then there is the question of package compatibility with Debian proper, something which you won’t have a problem with when using Libranet.
Correct me if i’m wrong but i get the idea that debian has more problems with Ubuntu packages than the other way around.
For KDE 3.3.2 users some housekeeping is necessary at this point. First, a few edits must be made in /etc/fstab. Your USB memory stick can be mounted by adding this line:
/dev/sda1 /usbstick auto defaults,noauto,user,noatime 0 0
That’s not something good for the image of a propietary box,with all respect.
does any one have the apt source list for libranet…heheh why download when you can just add the repos. For a installer and adimenu(or what ever it called :-p) 80 bucks is kinda steep for a price for a os …all though thats still better then windows price. But when will lbn4 come out since it took years for lbn3 to come out … what kind of future is there for that company with there release cycle. i really dont care but it just a matter of prefrences i aint trolling since i use freebsd. But when a company like that is charging something that high and only offer two things then i see a problem. But i hope them the best of luck. No hard feelings.
Ps
and i dont understand people saying ubuntu is the best. since it likes to completely kill computer’s and its slower then a turtle
Ps
and i dont understand people saying ubuntu is the best. since it likes to completely kill computer’s and its slower then a turtle
Well depends on your hardware specs doesn’t it?
I can’t say Ubuntu runs slow on AMD64 3700+ 1024 MB pc3200 and sata raid0.Without the intend to troll or attract otherwise some nasty creatures i still feel the need to say that none of the latest,greatest fbsd releases ran on my nforce motherboard based system.In the meantime there’re plenty of x86_64 linuxes who seem to have no problem booting a k8 system.
Quote: “what kind of future is there for that company with there release cycle.”
Debian isn’t actually hot either.
Quote: ” i aint trolling since i use freebsd”
Just cos you’re not using Linux doesn’t mean you can’t be trolling…although I understand what you meant 😉
$80 is quite reasonable for software. It’s not just adminmenu + installer, there’s a lot of hard work that’s gone into both. Then there’s package selection. Making sure it all works. Making your own distro isn’t easy, and it’s very time consuming. If you don’t believe me try LFS and writing your own custom installer in GTK. Then add the cost in hours for supporting it. Unix support is like $80/hour. If you run into problems, Jon & Tal will do everything *possible* to get your system working. If that takes X amount of hours, so be it.
Try getting support from Ubuntu – you have to pay for it (i’m not counting the forums). Try getting support for Windows ($49 a hit), or Apple ($49 a hit). Try getting support from Suse outside of the initial 60 or 90 days (depending on what version of software you use) for nothing. I remember Suse 8.0 pro – I had issues getting the sound on my laptop to work, emailed Suse, waited 4 days to be rudely told “sorry sir, sound isn’t included in basic support, if you want support for that you’ll have to pay extra $$$ for it”. All of that adds up.
So, suddenly, that $80 is looking rather nice eh? People seem to want their cake and eat it as well, or as Darth McBride put it so succinctly: “there’s no such thing as a free lunch”.
Quote: “Correct me if i’m wrong but i get the idea that debian has more problems with Ubuntu packages than the other way around. ”
Umm no. Ubuntu takes Debian Sid packages, modifies them, then uploads them to Debian again with incorrect package headers. That’s not Debian’s problem, that’s Ubuntu developers sloppiness. If Ubuntu was serious about helping Debian they’d be using Sarge packages and bug fixing them. But since I believe Ubuntu has ulterior motives, it wouldn’t make sense for them to “help” Debian. Time will prove me right I suspect.
Dave
For those of you asking why buy Libranet, you would know if you tried it. Although I haven’t tried the latest version, Libranet 2.x was the ONLY Linux distro that I could get all connected hardware working on. Additionally, it was the ONLY Linux distro that I successfully (and confidently) recompiled kernels on. Libranet is the BEST long-term experience I have had on Linux. The disadvantage with Libranet is that it generally lags the competitors in being up-to-date. This can be a problem when trying to get 3rd party software (i.e. not included on the CDs) that requires newer components than are available for Libranet.
Xandros… it couldn’t detect the ethernet card on my Thinkpad (that’s too basic to ignore). I have never been impressed with Suse’s seeming inability to successfully install to ANY machine that I have tried. Red Hat costs as much as Windows. Mepis/ Ubuntu/ Knoppix and other distros on a CD are impressive in that they generally include the latest and greatest Linux features. Their advantage disappears, however, when you install them to a hard drive. Now you are back to the same old hassle of updating your system.
Unless you enjoy wasting your time troubleshooting what your operating system should have done right in the first place (and you just HAVE to use Linux), Libranet is a good choice. If you want to confidently tweak your kernel, knowing that your system will still boot if you screw up, Libranet is the ONLY choice. Is $80 too much to spend for a distro? I think it might be if you’ve already spent $80 on the previous distro, but not if you have never paid for Libranet before. Libranet also has a much more liberal license, which I believe allows you to install on all your home machines and one work computer.
It’s sad to see that it took Libranet 3 so long to come out. I sure hope Libranet doesn’t fade into oblivian (taking with it the most excellent AdminMenu). I think the best idea would be if Libranet licensed the AdminMenu to other cutting edge distros. Leave the packaging to those distros and the Libranet crew can focus on what makes their distro so unique.
Try getting support from Ubuntu – you have to pay for it (i’m not counting the forums)
Some distro’s only have paid support,their forums simply are not good,to small,most likely both.The support that comes with most of the propietary (desktop)boxes is install support no more no less.Do all the propietary versions have support in you native language at local telephone charges?
For most of the users the forums are very valuable.Not only for searching for potential solutions to ones problems but allso for sharing experiences and pointing to potential pitfalls.
$80 is quite reasonable for software. It’s not just adminmenu + installer, there’s a lot of hard work that’s gone into both. Then there’s package selection. Making sure it all works.
With all respect,i know libranet is a good distro.But the admin menu isn’t enough to rectify the $80 no matter how long it took them to assemble.Nor is the install procedure,it isn’t their trademark(easy install) either,from the review:For KDE 3.3.2 users some housekeeping is necessary at this point. First, a few edits must be made in /etc/fstab. Your USB memory stick can be mounted by adding this line:
/dev/sda1 /usbstick auto defaults,noauto,user,noatime 0 0
That’s not the self proclaimed convenience of easy install.Remember you have to pay $80 for this distro version.Why didn’t they make it work out of the box?
Good for the end-user,unfortunately for those companies,the competetion is quite killing to say the least.
… I paid under $50 to upgrade. I was expecting to pay $65. I suspect the figures given are Canadian Dollars.
Ubuntu is good in this respect (of ease of setting up) but very limited on a default install. Then there is the question of package compatibility with Debian proper, something which you won’t have a problem with when using Libranet.
I for one am not so sure about that…
http://archive.libranet.com/archive/libranet/dists/hemlock/main/bin…
Ubuntu takes Debian Sid packages, modifies them, then uploads them to Debian again with incorrect package headers. That’s not Debian’s problem, that’s Ubuntu developers sloppiness. If Ubuntu was serious about helping Debian they’d be using Sarge packages and bug fixing them. But since I believe Ubuntu has ulterior motives, it wouldn’t make sense for them to “help” Debian. Time will prove me right I suspect.
Now you’re generalizing a step too far, I think. There have been problems in package compatibility between Ubuntu and Debian proper but these problems have been acknowledged and they will be solved in time, I believe. Debian has its own part in causing these problems because the delay in Sarge’s release has made development in testing and unstable to lag behind other major distros and it’s been impossible for Ubuntu to build the kind of up-to-date distro they want by starting from Debian’s testing branch. Now that Sarge is finally becoming released, the development in unstable and testing can continue at full speed and I hope that this results in Ubuntu and Debian supporting each other more intimately in the future.
Faster development in Debian testing will be also for Libranet’s benefit. Debian is starting to support security updates also for the testing branch and this makes Debian testing an attractive starting point for all Debian-based distros, hopefully also for Ubuntu in the future. Ubuntu has a clear plan to bring a very polished Gnome desktop to Debian and Libranet users will get to enjoy the results of this work, too. Now, what Libranet needs to do is to make clear what is its own area of expertise and why it’s worth paying the extra cash to purchase Libranet.
That was a good review. I was a little dissapointed to here that USB drives don’t appear on the desktop in Libranet though. Now that gnome 2.8 and KDE 3.4 do that by default I expect it.
I hope to try out Libranet soon to make a mutated Sid, the admin menu looks great!
kde 3.3.2 doesn’t “see” hal/udev, unlike the included Gnome 2.8. Some of the beta testers asked to include kde 3.4, but it was deemed that it was still too “new”, and truth be told, the developers are right.
Quote: “Debian has its own part in causing these problems because the delay in Sarge’s release has made development in testing and unstable to lag behind other major distros and it’s been impossible for Ubuntu to build the kind of up-to-date distro they want by starting from Debian’s testing branch. ”
That’s bullshit. Ubuntu didn’t have to use Sid packages, no one pointed a gun at the developers head(s) and made them. They chose to use Sid packages to show up Debian and make the differences between Debian and Ubuntu even more glaring, it’s a publicity stunt that worked very well for Ubuntu. This old dog has been around too long to be suckered in by the likes of Ubuntu. I smell a big rat (and since I own six adoring and lovely girl ratties I think I know what a rat smells like!!!).
Quote: “Do all the propietary versions have support in you native language at local telephone charges? ”
Apple and Microsoft do. Suse doesn’t. Redhat does. And? Your point is? Support is support, whether it’s via email or phone I don’t really give a shit, as long as I receive quality support (or what I perceive as quality support) and a timely resolution. A 3 day wait for a reply from Suse that tells me that basic support doesn’t support sound is bullshit service. I certainly won’t ever be using or recommending Suse again in my lifetime. Redhat however was a pleasure to deal with support wise.
Dave
support is support, whether it’s via email or phone I don’t really give a shit, as long as I receive quality support (or what I perceive as quality support) and a timely resolution.
My point was and still is:The size of the community is very important so are the forums.I would rather search the forums than spend to much money listening to some music coming from whatever device through the support telephone because they can’t handle the que.But if i have to it would be (playing the average user at home,still talking about the target audienc3e of libranet,to stay a bit on topic.)nice if i didn’t have to call some small appartment phone in the states from holland to get support.
Chill out, dude!
From the numerous comments you posted here and the Libranet forums, I know you are a strong supporter of Libranet. That’s certainly your choice.
However, I respectfully disagree with you about your comment on Ubuntu. The folks at Ubuntu have made a commendable effort to bring a more up-to-date desktop based on Debian to the masses. Their releases so far have worked quite well on my hardware. So I give them credit for doing a good job. I ran a number of distros. Ubuntu is just one of them. As well as Debian Sarge.
Ubuntu isn’t a perfect distro for everyone. And I challenge anyone who can find a perfect distro for everybody. There’s simply isn’t and never will. Close but no cigar. All the popular distros out there has one thing in common: they are good enough for a day-to-day work/play for lots of people.
As for Ubuntu being incompatible with Debian. Well, they clearly give the explanation on their site when they first release the distro. They do release their patches/update/whatever upstream. And it’s up to the Debian folks to accept or reject that. They never claim to be 100% Debian compatible.
One more note on Ubuntu: they didn’t get popular because of all the alleged hypes. They get popular because their distro releases seem to work well for a very large population. As for their incompatibility with Debian, it will become less of an issue eventually.
“I smell a big rat”
Me too. Usually I am rarely wrong in my predictions: time will tell.
That’s bullshit. Ubuntu didn’t have to use Sid packages, no one pointed a gun at the developers head(s) and made them. They chose to use Sid packages to show up Debian and make the differences between Debian and Ubuntu even more glaring, it’s a publicity stunt that worked very well for Ubuntu. This old dog has been around too long to be suckered in by the likes of Ubuntu. I smell a big rat (and since I own six adoring and lovely girl ratties I think I know what a rat smells like!!!).
wow. all that happened is an ubuntu maintainer didnt change the maintainer field when he put it back into sid. as was mentioned on the mailing list:
Ubuntu dev changes maintainer field: They are taking credit for my work!
Ubuntu dev doesnt change maintainer field: They arnt taking responsability for their own bugs!
The problem with a few of the debian developers is that ubuntu is now debian for the desktop, and debian used to be debian for the desktop. Debian needs to move a bit faster then a snail if they dont want that to happen. As has been pointed out, while ubuntu has been a pain for debian devs, its been a godsend to the debian based distro devs, as we are finally getting new packages. Even your beloved libranet uses ubuntus stuff.
the whole thing has been blown out of proportion by sites like this, there is friction, but not too terribly much, and alot less then you would think all things considered.
Where’s everybody getting $80 from? The price, as listed on their website is $89.95, which is a whole lot closer to $90 than it is to $80. The upgrade is $64.95 (same as the full price for 2.8). Those prices are in US dollars.
“The problem with a few of the debian developers is that ubuntu is now debian for the desktop, and debian used to be debian for the desktop.”
To those who choose Ubuntu. But to those who choose Sarge, Libranet, Kanotix, Knoppix, Mepis, Kurumin and dozens of other distros, Debian is still the norm.
“Debian needs to move a bit faster then a snail if they dont want that to happen.”
This has been discussed a zillion times. People don’t use stable for their desktops. Personally I have never done it.
At the moment I am using Kanotix with testing as my default release. As soon as my ISP upgrades my connection I’ll buy Libranet.
Ubuntu sure does seem to be becoming the new gentoo around here, in that every time another distro is mentioned, someone will pop in with a comment about how people should use ubuntu instead / a gushing and irrelevant personal anecdote about how wonderfully it works for them.
As we know, gentooisrice.com. How long until the ubuntu version?
Why do they use packages from Ubuntu?
You’re PAYING for a distro which uses things from a FREE distro.
It’s your money..
To those who choose Ubuntu. But to those who choose Sarge, Libranet, Kanotix, Knoppix, Mepis, Kurumin and dozens of other distros, Debian is still the norm.
How did you come to that conclusion? Of course, any debian or debian based distro is “debian for the desktop” for you, in which case ubuntu would be part of that list. But thats not even what I meant. Ubuntu is amoung the most popular desktop distros atm, and the most popular debian based desktop distro by a significant margin. The only way what you said could have any relevence to what I said is if you really think that sarge is a more popular desktop distro then debian.
This has been discussed a zillion times. People don’t use stable for their desktops. Personally I have never done it.
At the moment I am using Kanotix with testing as my default release. As soon as my ISP upgrades my connection I’ll buy Libranet.
Your right, noone uses stable. Thats because stable has a release cycle that approaches microsoft. Sarge is slightly better, but it takes forever for new packages to show up. All the debian based desktop distros are basically sarge plus updated packages to try and get it up to the competition. Sid is the only tree that moves at the speed of virtually everyone else, but every time i have tried it i have found it far too buggy for daily use.
What I said doesnt just apply to ubuntu, you would see the same kind of friction if any of the other debian desktop distros ever reached the popularity of ubuntu. Its normal, and actually alot smoother then it could be.
gentoo was the latest in a looooooooooooooong line of “distro of the week”s. mandrake was the one right before it. ubuntu is the one after it.
the reason you get the whole bickering thing is because there are so many distros based off of sarge that all more or less fill the same space in the linux world. biggest differences between libranet and ubuntu are that
1) libranet costs money
2) ubuntu is free(as in beer)
3) libranet rolls their own admin tools, which are more complete then ubuntu
4) ubuntu uses the gnome-system-tools, which will hopefully become the norm for gnome based distros. standards are a good thing.
5) libranet is more sarge compatible, and is more along the lines of the debian “everything and the kitchen sink” philosophy
6) ubuntu has more up to date packages, security updates, has a minimalistic “heres the defaults, add what you want” outlook, and is gnome centric.
as you can see, most of that is a matter of preference, and the other differences are pretty small. so thats why you get the “mine is bigger” pissing contests going on. same deal with xandros/lindowsdashspire. or fedora/mandrake/suse (although not as much as it once was, rpm distros arnt hip anymore). slack/arch would be another one.
doesnt only exist for distros. thats the exact same reason every discussion on gnome or kde turns into a flamefest, or windows/macos/linux. or tabs/spaces. or vi/emacs. or c#/java/c++. or python/anything. best thing you can do is look for the people who say that the other is totally worthless, and ignore them.(if it were useless, noone would use it, which makes the person making the claim a zealot)
5) libranet is more sarge compatible, and is more along the lines of the debian “everything and the kitchen sink” philosophy
6) ubuntu has more up to date packages, security updates, has a minimalistic “heres the defaults, add what you want” outlook, and is gnome centric.
I’m sorry to disagree but “everything and the kitchen sink” is not the correct description here. Debian & Libranet let you choose what apps you want and this may result either a very lightweight or a bloated system — depending on what YOU choose to install. Ubuntu is not that flexible. Ubuntu’s approach is heaven-sent for newbies who don’t know yet what they want but it can be annoying for more experienced users.
Another thing, Debian testing has now its own security team.
http://secure-testing.alioth.debian.org/
Also, as I pointed out in my earlier post, the development in Debian testing and unstable will speed up considerably after Sarge has been released. The next Debian testing, Etch, may very soon be more up-to-date than Ubuntu’s latest official release.
yea i dont understand the whole kitchen sink thingy??? I think that is the one thing I didnt like about ubuntu, there was no package selection, no selection of window managers/desktop environments? I might be wrong tho since it has been a while! But that is the cool thing about libranet is from a minimal couple hundred meg install to a whopper install, from a 300mhz to a 2ghz machine, it can do it all……..
I’m sorry to disagree but “everything and the kitchen sink” is not the correct description here. Debian & Libranet let you choose what apps you want and this may result either a very lightweight or a bloated system — depending on what YOU choose to install. Ubuntu is not that flexible. Ubuntu’s approach is heaven-sent for newbies who don’t know yet what they want but it can be annoying for more experienced users.
theres a difference between “bloated” and “everything and the kitchen sink”. the big thing with a focused distro is you have to like the focus. you could make the exact same argument for distros, and say that anything other then LFS is for newbies. sure, non LFS systems are a hell of alot less flexible, but at the same time require a fraction of the amount of time to set up and get everything working. same deal with ubuntu vs debian, if you like the package selection, the biggest difference is debian takes alot longer to get the same thing. sure, out of the box ubuntu doesnt have xfce. that doesnt even remotely effect me, as i am not an xfce user. if i were, then i would want something more flexible, and i sure as hell wouldnt go for one that is totally centered around gnome.
a focused distro appeals to a certain class of user, but not to others. a more flexible distro appeals to everyone equally. for me, while debian is appealing, ubuntu is more appealing for all the same reasons. just because i CAN do everything myself doesnt mean something i can just start working with isnt attractive, it means i can get to real work (or play) sooner.
there you go. if you have a bunch of boxes that require vastly different configurations, or are a newbie and havnt settled on a list of favorite linux software yet, then a more flexible distro is more your thing. on the flipside, if you will choose exactly the same options every time you install it, and most of those options are what(more or less) a focused distro does automatically, then a focused distro is more your thing. i really dont care if my distro runs on a 300mhz machine if im installing it on my 1.5 ghz box. that kind of advantage is worthless to me, just like the certification and support of rhel is worthless to me, or how click-n-run is worthless to me. thats not to say those things arnt worthless, it just means that they are features i dont need or care about, and they will not influence my descision of what distro i use on my home computer. if i were on a windows network, then something where samba works out of the box would be a plus, and where samba is broken a deal breaker. since im not on a windows network, i couldnt care less.
i CAN do everything myself doesnt mean something i can just start working with isnt attractive, it means i can get to real work (or play) sooner.
Co0uldn’t have said it better myself.Personally, i don’t see the use of configuring and making sure the most elementary things work.CD/DVD could be detected out of the box,detection for most bttv,sound,graphics cards and preferrably printers and scaners too,so you can start with the “real” buisiness as soon as possible.
“What I said doesnt just apply to ubuntu, you would see the same kind of friction if any of the other debian desktop distros ever reached the popularity of ubuntu. Its normal, and actually alot smoother then it could be.”
I don’t believe that for a moment. Knoppix was more popular than Debian, but it was (is) fully Debian compatible. Same with Mepis. What causes the friction is that Ubuntu is a fork of Debian or, if you don’t like the word “fork”, it is incompatible with Debian.
I’m like the biggest Ubuntu fan, but I know that it is not for everyone. Hell, I’ll admit that Kubuntu is pretty pathetic when compared to other KDE distros (if only because KDEs admin tools aren’t as mature as Gnomes because every damn popular KDE distro makes their own). I’ll admit that it does not do some things that Libranet does well.
I like Libranet. Its a great Debian and its cool how you can turn it into Sid (I wouldn’t dare do that with Ubuntu).
RE: David Pastern
I can tell you’re a BIG Libranet fan. Thats cool. You make good points when discussing Libranet, but your Ubuntu opinions are WAY off!
”
That’s bullshit. Ubuntu didn’t have to use Sid packages, no one pointed a gun at the developers head(s) and made them. They chose to use Sid packages to show up Debian and make the differences between Debian and Ubuntu even more glaring, it’s a publicity stunt that worked very well for Ubuntu. This old dog has been around too long to be suckered in by the likes of Ubuntu. I smell a big rat (and since I own six adoring and lovely girl ratties I think I know what a rat smells like!!!).”
You are correct. Ubuntu wanted to use Sid because IT HAS THE NEWEST STUFF. Ubuntu is meant to be a bleeding edge distro, it never tried to be compatible with Sarge (that why it has its own Repo unlike many Debian based distros). It wants to be its own thing. It just wants to help Debian with patches- which it does- and it works out things for Debian (both Libranet and Etch use xorg in a manor Ubuntu worked out).
Ubuntu isn’t out to screw Debian or something. Its just wanting to make a cutting edge distro based on Debian, something MANY OTHER DISTROs DO and something DEBIAN ALLOWS!!!!!
sorry to shout but I hate that sort of ignorance….
Sorry you are mad because you believe that Sarge or Libranet or whetever should got more of the spotlight than Ubuntu, but there are good reasons for that….
yeah, im sorry, i wasnt clear. what i meant was any distro that rolls a substancial amount of changes back into the trunk. due to the utter crappyness of the old installer, theres a ton of debian based distros where thats one of the only things they change. cant think of any that do as many changes as ubuntu. and if ubuntu was a fork, this would be a non issue. but its a branch, and rolling all those changes back into the trunk is where the friction is comming from.
It wants to be its own thing. It just wants to help Debian with patches- which it does- and it works out things for Debian (both Libranet and Etch use xorg in a manor Ubuntu worked out).
a bit off here. every six months, there is a new ubuntu system based off of a sarge snapshot. that means that they are getting six months worth of testing, packaging, and bug fixing. thats a hell of alot. from there, they add in new versions of projects, and package/test/bug fix those to make ubuntu. those changes are sent back to debian which benefits both debian and ubuntu, ubuntu being forced to maintain anything that doesnt get into debian, and debian getting updated tested packages.
debian definately benefits from ubuntu, but ubuntu benefits a hell of alot more from debian.
a bit off here. every six months, there is a new ubuntu system based off of a sarge snapshot. that means that they are getting six months worth of testing, packaging, and bug fixing. thats a hell of alot. from there, they add in new versions of projects, and package/test/bug fix those to make ubuntu. those changes are sent back to debian which benefits both debian and ubuntu, ubuntu being forced to maintain anything that doesnt get into debian, and debian getting updated tested packages.
debian definately benefits from ubuntu, but ubuntu benefits a hell of alot more from debian.
I assume you meant Sid. And you are right, Sid helps Ubuntu currentyl more than Ubuntu helps Sid. The entire base of Ubuntu is Sid, the packages are Sid packages. Sid is the reason Ubuntu exists.
So Ubuntu trys to give some back. Enough to pay for use of Sid? It does, more than enough because that use is free.
Seems to get a lot more press than other Debian derivatives…
“Seems to get a lot more press than other Debian derivatives…”
LOL!
I have seen somebody using this signature:
“Kanotix 2005-02, the best kept secret”
I believe that is correct. Kanotix users enjoy an absolute *great* distro, free as in beer and as in free speech, without any noise, hype or similar. They don’t go to other distro’s forums or threads preaching how great Kanotix is.
Truly good stuff doesn’t need advertising.
Truly good stuff doesn’t need advertising.
Sorry to disagree with you on that point. Nobody knows it’s a good stuff unless somebody tries it, likes it, then talks about it. Then the next curious one tries it, likes it, and talks about it. Word of mouth is a form of advertising.
“Word of mouth is a form of advertising.”
I agree. But I wouldn’t call what is happening with Ubuntu “word of mouth”
I’d rather call it “brainwashing”
Quote: “Word of mouth is a form of advertising.”
Absolutely. It’s one of the best forms of advertising. How many people flick past adverts in the paper and magazine without even reading them? How many channal hop on their TV set when you get ads between shows? The vast majority (from my experience) avoid advertising. Word of mouth is different, you’re getting it usually from a friend you trust. You’re more inclined to pay attention to what they say.
Dave
Without knoppix there wouldn’t be an kanotix,without debian there wouldn’t be Ubuntu amongst others.So what?
Steroids, the debian progect members needs to take steroids so they can complete and release sarge.
Libranet had problems
if i remeber correctly libranet was developed mostly for internal use and then decided to unleash it on the world…
misc. ramblings…