This month’s Wired magazine has a terriffic story about a team of students from a high school in an economically depressed part of Phoenix, who took part in an underwater-robot building competition against students from the top universities in the country — and won. All of the students are undocumented Mexican immigrants who don’t qualify for most financial aid or even in-state tuition, and therefore can’t afford to attend college, in the US, Mexico, or anywhere. When I read the article I determined to try to do something to help give these kids their chance, and I was delighted to discover that their faculty advisor has set up a scholarship fund for them, and I’m about to donate some money to help. I’d like to encourage OSNews readers to read the story, and if they feel the same way, to donate.
“undocumented”
That about says it!
Um… I took out several loans to pay for my college… Why can’t they?
Hello! undocumented Mexican immigrants = criminals! they either need to apply for green cards legally or be deported post haste.
Hello! undocumented Mexican immigrants = criminals! they either need to apply for green cards legally or be deported post haste.
These kids are hardworking geniuses. They’re the kind of immigrant every nation should welcome. If they are in the country illegally they should be deported (we gotta respect the law) but then should immediately be issued student visas and brought back into the country the same day. I see potential here that shouldn’t be wasted.
Yes, because loans are so accessible to undocumented mexican immigrants.
Your taxes subsidize students who get in-state tuition and pell grants, which is one of the reasons why these guys don’t qualify. I’m not saying that their parents were right to bing them across the border illegally, but here they are, and they have the chance to become productive, tax-paying members of society instead of existing in a black market economy and providing little benefit.
And you could qualify for a student loan only because of special government-backed exception to the regular rules that state that you need to be employed and have a good credit history to borrow money. These guys don’t qualify for student loans either, though the restrictions placed on them by this scholarship fund are going to be pretty stringent.
I am a white male that grew up in a poor family, I didn’t see any of you jumping at the chance to pay for my school for me.
Get documented and get help via the normal channels. Get legal.
I wonder how many people have done great things but didn’t get a story written about them because they haven’t broken the law and don’t wind up with donations pouring in?
Were you exceptionally bright kid that made the news? I doubt it..
did you build an underwater robot in HS that beat engineering students from top universities?
no?
well, that is why you get nothing.
I am an American citizen putting all of my time and effort into being with my wife who is a candian citizen. We are trying to finish up with Canadian Immgration for me, so that we can be together, so I have no compassion for people who don’t abide by the law. If I have to, then they have to! Plain and simple!!! They should either apply for a green card or get out of the US!!!!
Your taxes subsidize students who get in-state tuition and pell grants, which is one of the reasons why these guys don’t qualify.
It the privilege of being a citizen of any country to participate in government funded programs. These things are not free!
I’m not saying that their parents were right to bing them across the border illegally, but here they are, and they have the chance to become productive, tax-paying members of society instead of existing in a black market economy and providing little benefit.
Um they should not be here in the first place! Robot smart or not. Again if they want to follow the rules when in comes to immigrating to this country so be it they are no different then the thousands of others.
I was thinking the same thing, with the student visa thing. One of the great tragedies of the US’ post 9/11 paranoia is that the best and the brightest students from other lands are finding it much harder to come study in American universities. Allowing foreign students to come study here has been an immesurable boon to US industry and academia. Sure, we shouldn’t necessarily encourage or reward flouting immigration law, but the country always has and always will have an incentive to encourage the great minds of the world to study and even stay here.
But even taking national interest out of the picture, I’d just like to see these kids have the chance to benefit society to the full extent, even if it were by giving them the means to attend one of the excellent Mexican or other Latin American universities.
Sheeyit. If they’re so smart they’ll find a way to succeed. Who ever heard of a smart guy that was poor except by choice?
…I thought it was inspirational – maybe someone will make a movie about it someday (or at least a documentary.)
Good luck to them getting into college, and shame about all the bitter naysayers here who refuse to recognise talent and potential, and who oblivious to the huge part immigrants – legal and illegal – play in the U.S. economy.
But I guess they’d rather immigrants work at Taco Bell and Nabraskan slaughterhouses so they don’t have to.
Wow…
That’s pretty arrogant; I’m kind of surprised to read comments like this on such a community/OSS/future-oriented website.
Most citizens’ families (sans the few Native Americans) immigrated to America at some point of their family history.
They were fortunate to be “allowed into the country” so easily by comparison (and despite any hardships during their commute). Going by the books, these mexican teens would likely be on a waiting list for 15-20 years before their number was called for review. Mexicans who submitted applications in the mid 1980s are just being reviewed right now.
I’m a firm believer of following the rule of law, but there is a clear need for change. You can hardly expect a person to put their life on hold for two decades…especially a critical period like 18-40 where education and careers emerge. The whole immigration process needs to be moderinized and revamped, IMHO. It’s not these kid’s fault they’re in the situation they’re in; they shouldn’t be punished for it.
On a side note, i find it interesting how this country rewards academia. So many research articles have been published that highlight statistical deficiencies in our population’s mathematic aptitude… You would think a promising demonstration like these guys put forth might be rewarded in America. Evidently not.
> Hello! undocumented Mexican immigrants = criminals!
> they either need to apply for green cards legally
> or be deported post haste.
Right, after all this is what separates humans from animals – we set up borders and drive away those who cross them. Wait, animals do that too. Never mind then.
Although our law doesn’t allow to discriminate against blacks anymore, thanks God it still allows to discriminate against non-residents. After all when constitution says “all men are created equal” surely it doesn’t actually mean ALL?
I’d like to pose a question to those who have expressed some rather callous anti-immigrant sentiment. If these had been kids from a Juarez, Mexico, high school who had won the same competition, and were in the same situation, and wanted to attend college, would you feel differently? Would you feel that they had no right to accept a private scholarship to attend a US (or Mexican) university.
Frankly, the fact that these kids are illegal immigrants is mostly irrelevant. It’s like original sin. They did receive the opportunity to be discovered, and to participate in this contest, which they wouldn’t have had otherwise, but now that they have been identified for their capabilities, they should be shoved back down because of a crime that their parents committed?
I also believe that open borders are in the US national interest, but the truth is that the economy needs a certain number of immigrants to do the work that natural-born citizens won’t do. There’s a trick balancing act, that we’re not doing very well, but spouting off anti-immigrant platitudes isn’t going to help any more than the anti-Irish, anti-Italian, anti-Polish sentiments that were widespread in past eras did. Let’s focus on finding real solutions, rather than encouraging illegal immigration with one hand and decrying it with the other, which is the current US policy.
There have been stories on Yahoo.com and Cnn.com. The US is now going to require VESA for anyone coming into the US from Mexico or Canada. Not a drivers license a Vesa. Even if you are an American Citizen. If you are going to go to Canada or Mexico you will soon have to have a Vesa to do it.
Gosh, two Mikes in a row with the same sentiments. Great names think alike…
So let me see if I get this right… they’re undocumented Mexican nationals residing in Arizona and are leeching off of my federal tax dollars and the state tax dollars of Arizona residents to get a free education. And now we’re supposed to feel sorry for them and get them scholarships? To where, US schools that they can’t attend without a visa anyway? Contrary to popular belief, Mexico *does* have technical education facilities. In fact, I work with quite a few Mexican nationals in Mexico who work for my boss’s company full time and go to school part time. They get Bachelor’s degrees in 4 years and the large majority of their education is free. Personally, I commend them for the technical abilities, but rather than give them scholarship monies, we should deport their asses back to Mexico. Being the land of the free and brave *should* have its boundaries… pun intended.
Andrew Davis http://palm.nccomp.com
I don’t mean for living either. If you go to Mexico for the day or the week and are an American. You will soon have to have a Vesa to get back in. Who wants to take bets that before long all Americans will be required to carry “papers” on them at all times.
“Who wants to take bets that before long all Americans will be required to carry “papers” on them at all times.”
Not gonna happen.
.
I think some of you guys are probably way off on the tax issue. It’s my understanding that, as a whole, undocumented immigrants pay at least their fair share of taxes. They are able to take part in some benefit from taxes, such as subsidized public transportation. schools for their children, help from charities that receive state grants, but there are many tax-funded benefits that they do not get: social security, medicare, scholarhips and grants, business loans, etc. And though many of them work for cash, they are at an income level that would more likely qualify them for Earned income tax credits (that they don’t get) rather than as income tax payers. But they pay sales taxes, pay local government fees, and in may cases pay payroll tax, including social security, that they aren’t qualified to receive the benefit of.
So you can argue that they’re stealing job opportunity from the lowest quartile of native population, which is certainly somewhat true, but the tax issue is a red herring.
Here are some results from Florida, a state with a big illegal immigrant “problem:”
http://www.ailf.org/ipc/policy_reports_2002_pay.asp
No, I wouldn’t mind if they did this in Mexico. Its the fact that their getting special treatment while also being unconvicted felons that bothers me (yes, illegally entering the US is a felony). If these guys were students in Mexico, obeying Mexican laws and entered into a competition that brought them temporarily into the US, then went back to Mexico, that would be fine with me. Get ’em some scholarship money and if they can get a visa, they can go to school in the US (or any other non-third world country for that matter). And if they can’t get a visa, they use their money to go to school in Mexico. I have no issue with their technical skills or their desire to go to school, nor anyone’s desire to help them. But the fact is, thus far, they owe their technical abilities to the US provided education they received at the expense of all our federal tax dollars and Arizona residents’ state tax dollars. This is money they’ve used illegally, so technically their felonous illegal immigrants AND thieves. If they were such good people, they’d take their scholarship monies and pay back the US and Arizona for the monies they’ve leeched from us for their illegal education. At this point, let ’em be smart, but let ’em do so back in Mexico.
I have to say that its great that there are so many protectors of america here, trying to make sure that it remains pure and unsoiled. I am happy that there are others who have realized that we are more human and more deserving than those born too far south of our borders. After all, I would rather see these criminals (after all undocumented==criminal) rot as opposed to see them turn into so called productive members of society while I pay for it with my pure american money.
Sarcasm aside, I find the overall sentiment of these posts disgusting. Read your history books and realize that this is a country of immigrants.
I think its funny how these criminal that come here to study robotics and ruin our society are held to a different standard than those that came from England, Spain, The Netherlands etc.. seeking a better life, after all they probably didn’t have documents either, just better weapons.
Who ever heard of a smart guy that was poor except by choice?
Ever really talk to a cab driver? Some of the ones I’ve talked to were professionals (engineers, that sort of thing) in their home country. They immigrated to the US, but couldn’t get a job in the US because they didn’t have an American or European degree. They couldn’t get an American degree, because it costs money to attend school, and recent immigrants usually have a hard time getting loans and don’t qualify for many grants.
Bullshit! Undocumented don’t pay taxes cause they’re undocumented and largely paid under the table. For that matter, the majority of them take their hard earned money and send it back to their families in Mexico to give them a better life. If every US citizen took all his extra money and sent it out to another country, the US would go bankrupt. They get paid under the table, pay no taxes, shack up 10 people in a 2 bedroom apartment, then try to get education and health services for free. They leech off of state and federal tax dollars, then when they do get money, they send it home instead of re-investing it back into the economy. Its bullshit!
Excuse me do you live in the US? specifically near the Mexican border? No? then kindly shutup becasue you have no idea what you are talking about. We know how Europe treats its immigrants.
@Adam
Frankly, the fact that these kids are illegal immigrants is mostly irrelevant. It’s like original sin. They did receive the opportunity to be discovered, and to participate in this contest, which they wouldn’t have had otherwise, but now that they have been identified for their capabilities, they should be shoved back down because of a crime that their parents committed?
The problem in my mind has been the de-criminalzation of illegal immigration over the years. It is against the law(read; CRIME) to enter this country without proper authorization. The immigration issue is not irrelevant you just happen to be blinded by their acheivements, which i admit are very impressive. Let me ask you a question should Terry Nichols(Oklahoma city bomber) be forgiven his transgressions if for example he came up with the cure for cancer? Hell no!
If these had been kids from a Juarez, Mexico, high school who had won the same competition, and were in the same situation, and wanted to attend college, would you feel differently? Would you feel that they had no right to accept a private scholarship to attend a US (or Mexican) university.
Apples and oranges questions but here it goes..chances are they would follow the proper procedures to obtain a student visa or whatever legal means to enter this country.
I am against all illegal immigration Mexico, Canada, Japan, England or what have you.
If a bunch of crooks busted out of jail and did it in a creative or “intelligent” way that made people think they were smart, should we forget they are crooks?
The huge influx of mexicans is trashing Arizona. I don’t know about other places.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0407/p01s02-ussc.html
sure they work jobs we don’t want to; they also come over to have their children here, traffic drugs here, etc. a real BOOST to our economy…
>> These kids are hardworking geniuses.
So you get to break the law if you are smart?
>> I’m not saying that their parents were right to bing them across the border illegally, but here they are,
they are **well within** the statute of limitations for deportation.
sorry, but smart, dumb, black, white…justice is supposed to be blind. they are here in violation of the law.
We have laws. You don’t have to be a genius to follow them. Only a criminal to break them.
would you find people who want these kids to take a hike because they have not crossed the t’s and dotted the eyes. Actually, our country (Canada) is much the same, and it’s pathetic. Only a few short years ago millions of Immagrants streamed into the “new world” to make a bteer life from nothing but hard work and tears. So quickly we forget the efforts of our own ancestor’s. My great,great grandparents fled to America to escape the persicution happening in Germany and Russia, around the 1860’s. By the time my grandfather was 15 he and his 17 year old brother left America to come to Canada to farm along the Canadian Railway line. Land was GIVEN to them, so long as they agreed to work it. They were treated for the first twenty years or so in much the same way some of the readers treat these kids, with great animosity. They stayed anyways, payed thier taxes, and now some 500 to 1000 of us direct descendants of these two brave “kids” are all paying taxes. Since niether of them could read or right, they couldn’t even sign papers, let alone build robots. All I’m saying is, given half a chance , your country could REALLY benifit from these guys. Hey , if you don’t want them, send them our way, as we are suffering from a severe brain drain up here(seems the almighty dollar is causing our university students to run south at record speed). I believe most of the underdeveloped countries in the world have alot to offer the West, and if they can stand the cold, they are welcome here.
David Adams, you just opened a Pandora’s box here on OSNews…
Good thing that you did this.
Too bad so many white Americans are too shallow and too egocentric to concern themselves for problems that don’t affect their white suburbs and SUVs.
David, you need to move to a place where people really care about eachother– like the Netherlands, Canada, or the Scandinavian countries or something.
How can you call anyone an illegal immigrant? Our government doesn’t even have a legitimate claim to it’s own land! It got it by killing and subjugating people. And “purchasing” it from other nations that got it by… killing and subjugating people.
>> I was thinking the same thing, with the student visa thing. One of the great tragedies of the US’ post 9/11 paranoia is that the best and the brightest students from other lands are finding it much harder to come study in American universities.
yes, but those students are required to obtain educational visas to come to our colleges, that is a completely different issue.
good god i hope you people stay out of politics, talk about ARBITRARY judgements….
There must be something wrong with MIT if they loose from a bunch of highshool kids.Or all MIT students have more money than brains.Either way it’s remarkable.
These kids probably have more brains than is good for them 🙂
So rednecks at ease,they aren’t made for your dull 9 to 5 jobs.Kids with such a talent should be protected and stimulated.America should be glad to have such bright citizens.
>> Going by the books, these mexican teens would likely be on a waiting list for 15-20 years before their number was called for review.
YES and that list is so long because we are saturated with people who will not stand in line like the law requires.
i would think this would be common sense to a high school graduate…are you one?
the line of legal immigrants would get shorter if the INS could spend more time processing it instead of trying to track illegals.
“”did you build an underwater robot in HS that beat engineering students from top universities?
no?
well, that is why you get nothing.””
Well, no robots here, BUT I am & have been working, in high school, on NASA funded research in the Aeroscience field… and I’m not getting any help with my college tuition… where is my fund?(me, the legal resident of America.)
I think some of you guys are probably way off on the tax issue. It’s my understanding that, as a whole, undocumented immigrants pay at least their fair share of taxes.
Um let me ask you a few questions…Can you work in this country without a SSN?
Answer: No
Do illegal immigrants have SSN’s?
Answer: No
Socail security taxes,federal and state income taxes come out of your paycheck based on your having a SSN. So that leaves what State and federal sales taxes? that an illegal Alien could be paying assuming he is working in this country illegally..buying gas etc. Lets see i pay it all Federal,state,Social Security income and sales tax compaired ot an illegal immigrant who pays sales tax only. Tell me again how is that their fair share?
>> It’s my understanding that, as a whole, undocumented immigrants pay at least their fair share of taxes.
your understanding is INCORRECT
do they pay vehicle licensing fees? NOPE, they aren’t licensed
do they pay income taxes? NOPE they are paid in cash because banks basically won’t give them accounts (some are starting) because they are illegal without SSNs
do they pay FICA, SS, etc, NOPE – see above
GET A CLUE PEOPLE
“David, you need to move to a place where people really care about eachother– like the Netherlands, Canada, or the Scandinavian countries or something.”
Yeah, those people in the Netherlands are so caring about each other.
http://slate.msn.com/id/2109523/
That’s what’s messed in this country, we are supposed to be so much better off than the rest of the world, yet the rest of the (poorer) world actually has the right to a Free Education, as well as Free Health Care (look at Australia for a good model), yet here we are FORCED to pay for EVERYTHING, or we can get Loans and spend the rest of our lives paying that crap off.
As for these Mexican kids, that is awsome! Everyone up here seems so predudiced against anyone from a “third world” country, as if they have no intellect or reason, so here these guys come to show them up!
P.S. I’m a honkey.
Actually illegal aliens with no SSN’s still have Social Security taxes deducted from their pay and placed into the general account, because their employers can’t easily hide it. It’s like paying taxes on druge money or something… damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Except that the Feds LOVE employers who hire illegals and pay SS, because those illegals can never qualify for benefits from it. So yes, they are paying their fair share: they are paying into SS and will never see a dime of it. Wait… that sounds rather like my position.
Universities should select more on skill,talent and motivation than daddies check-book.
This is the problem with illegal immigration. The world wants to come into the United States. The US can not ever support that. Thus natural limits have been set to decide who can come here and who can’t. People who come here are basically flipping the middle finger at everyone who wants to come here and everyone who is here (Citizens, immigrants, whatever.) They deserve nothing but a nice boot in the butt and an express ride back home.
This is the other problem I have with illegal immigration. As a tax payer, I basically put a lot of companies on public wellfare. Because rather than they paying their employees proper wages, they hire illegal immigrants, pay them crap, and my tax dollars (rather than company money) goes into paying all the support costs for the illegals.
And here is another problem with illegal immigration, they drive the quality of education and health care down. Have you been to a hospital for an emergency recently. If you haven’t, let me tell you this, a) because emergency support is free, illegal immigrants all go there making it impossible for the hospital to actually help real emergencies and b) because hospitals are forced to help illegals and there is no way for hospitals to recover money used on illegals, a lot of hospitals also fold over, making hospitals even more crowded.
As you can see, there is no justification for illegal immigration. It just messes everyone up and the only people who win are the companies that hire illegal immigrants. The illegal immigrants get screwed, residents get screwed. I understand everyone wants to come into the United States, but everyone also wants to be a billionaire.
“Everyone up here seems so predudiced against anyone from a “third world” country, as if they have no intellect or reason, so here these guys come to show them up!”
Hmmm… From what I’ve read people are upset because they are breaking the law, not because of where they are from.
>> That’s what’s messed in this country, we are supposed to be so much better off than the rest of the world, yet the rest of the (poorer) world actually has the right to a Free Education
education is not “free” in any nation on this planet.
people pay for school with taxes
PUBLIC education does not mean FREE education
in fact quite the opposite, it is a social contract to pool resources and apply societal standards to education.
oh my god you people don’t vote do you?
Also, illegal workers are making little enough that they would owe no income taxes even if they filed. And they pay sales tax at the register (pump, etc.) just like the rest of us. So they are likely paying for MORE than their fair share.
Let’s not reward law breaking with free money—or anything. What does that say? What laws can I break and be rewarded for?
If I steal, should I be given free food?
If I break into FBI computers, should they give me a job?
I don’t qualify for any financial assistance with college. Maybe I should leave the country, give up my citizenship, and then sneak back across the border. Then I can finish my BS in less than 8 years.
People who come here should be People who come here illegally
… to get those words out of the statue of Liberty. You know…let the poor, …
Okay, all of you people who seem so caught up in obeying the law: It’s touching that you have such an adherence to the current law. How many of you pay use taxes to your state on all the items you buy online from other states? How many of you signal with every lane change and obey the speed limit? Do you have any mp3s on your computer that you didn’t pay for? Let’s not even get started on whether you do everything that you were taught in church as a child.
We obey two kinds of laws: the ones that we have deeply internalized (murder), and the ones that we have determined that the likelihood of being caught and the penalties for are high enough to prevent it. Most other laws are treated more cavalierly, by just about everyone. There’s nothing sacred about most of them, and many people will flout laws that they feel are unjust as a form of protest. In the American South it used to be illegal for some people to drink at certain water fountains. Most people now consider the people who violated those laws to be real heroes.
So let’s continue to discuss the moral aspects of illegal immigration, because it’s a truly thorny issue with many vaild points of view. But saying “it’s illegal” does not close the book by any stretch of the imagination. Be honest with yourself.
Well, I hope you are ready to spend 70% of your salary in miscellaneous taxes/income… Free education/health care isn’t exactly free.
“it is a social contract…”
I’m a legal citizen, but deny that I am party to any social contract. Taxation for education is theft, no matter what size of majority is in favor of it. I don’t have any more responsibility to send your kid to school than I do to buy you a new sports car every year.
did I mention that I am in fact white, but i grew up in a trashy trailor park, right alongside all of the “unfortunate” mexicans who everyone seams to love, while ignoring the poor citizens… it isnt that theyre poor, and unfortunate that makes you want to help them, its some twisted sense of guilt you have because their people have been mis-treated in the past…
>> Okay, all of you people who seem so caught up in obeying the law: It’s touching that you have such an adherence to the current law. How many of you pay use taxes to your state on all the items you buy online from other states? How many of you signal with every lane change and obey the speed limit?
non-sequiter…straw man…all you need is a false appeal to authority to complete the major logical fallacies
>> I’m a legal citizen, but deny that I am party to any social contract.
until you get to opt out of funding public schools, I can assure you that you are
not to say this is impossible…thats the entire point of educational vouchers.
>> We obey two kinds of laws: the ones that we have deeply internalized (murder), and the ones that we have determined that the likelihood of being caught
no, that is your rationalization. do not confuse it with legal canon, common law, tort law, judge judy or the people’s court.
i recommend you back off this topic, you are going from thin ice to thinner ice with each post
“non-sequiter…straw man…all you need is a false appeal to authority to complete the major logical fallacies”
non-sequiter: He’s not saying that hypocrisy means that no one needs to obey the law, he’s just saying your hypocrites, and that you are arguing as if you were not. I.e., you are giving reasons that you do not, yourselves, base your own actions upon.
straw man: Where… I don’t see one of those. All of the things he listed are illegal. Heck, in WA it’s a misdemeanor to exceed the speed limit by 1mph.
just curious…
how many of you actually earned ur us citizenship (or did any work towards getting it)?
and how many of u just had the dumb f*cking luck of being born on US soil like myself?
be greateful for what u have cuz you probably didn’t earn your opportunities and chances. so why keep others from the chance of earning theirs?
the law?! hahaha… i guess.
if they’re felons and thieves, let them pay back the debt.
and why not let them enjoy the payback?
“until you get to opt out of funding public schools, I can assure you that you are”
No, I’m a victim of organized crime.
>> Also, illegal workers are making little enough that they would owe no income taxes even if they filed
ugh. no, because if they were legal there would be far far far fewer of them and the aggregate decrease in expenditures (education, medical), would FAR offset the tax credits we would be mailing them
David, you need to move to a place where people really care about eachother– like the Netherlands, Canada, or the Scandinavian countries or something.
Canada, I wholeheartedly agree!!!
I’d say first you should look in the Netherlands what Verdonk is doing and then,only then,give lessons to American people. Immigrants (legal ones) in Netherlands are no different,or worse,treated than in US of A. Stop giving lessons. At least US have immigration programs,same for Canada, Australia, New Zealand. The only country in Europe where integration succeded somehow is France. The rest, well , that’s another story.
BTW,I’m Canadian by adoption and living for the moment in The Netherlands for a better paycheck ( about 4 years ) so I know what I am talking. And well, I strongly do not reccomend colored people to even consider living in Scandinavian countries.Also,been there working and again I know what I am talking about. Get used with it everybody, that’s the world we all living in.
Although I understand people wanting things to stay legal and arguing that they are other ways to reach ones goals, the sheer stupidity of calling these kids criminals and such is sickening. I am even surprised this aspect of things would even come up.
“no, that is your rationalization”
News flash man, people are MORALLY AUTONOMOUS. That means that for better or worse, we all have to judge right and wrong for ourselves. Where the law falls outside my interpretation of right and wrong, it just becomes a bunch of people who really want me to act a certain way. At which point the question becomes, “what are you gonna do to me if I do it anyway?”
>> But I guess they’d rather immigrants work at Taco Bell and Nabraskan slaughterhouses so they don’t have to.
another fallacy
working in these types of jobs never used to be so bad before when, for example, workers had protections.
but you don’t have to protect an illegal because they have no status and they know it, they don’t complain.
this is why profits in big agri and food industries have gone through the roof – labor costs are run down to the ground. exec pay in these industries has gone through the ceiling…more of each dollar now goes to execs than line workers. this is why big agri is begging GWB to keep border patrols lax, and they are showing their appreciation with political donations.
this is labor economics 101.
once again, you are telling me that breaking the law is fine for smart kids?
I would rather see them making robots than firing guns.
do you know why the statue of lady justice has her wearing a blindfold??
Yes, it’s a part of hear no evil,see no evil and speak no evil.
never thought about this…for even a second between dancedancerevolution and desperate housewives????
What? Giving opportunity to promising kids is breaking the law?Than i would break it with pleasure when still more people are judged upon their money and influence instead of their intellectual capabilities.
take a civics class with the rest of the posters here.
Nah boring stuff.Rather make robots.By the way you know the saying:An engineer who goes back 100 years in time and chances are he can teach his collegue back than a few things.A psychologist who travels back in time can only argue with his colleque.
No, I don’t live in the U.S. – I live in the U.K., another country with a relatively high rate of illegal immigration. But I’m not too blind too acknowledge that immigration plays a huge part in the US & UK economies (and, as David Adams has pointed out, the policians know this, and know the economy would be seriously harmed if illegal immigration were curbed (hence Bush’s proposal for an amnesty last year.)
Secondly, you’re deluding yourself if you think illegal immigration can ever be totally curbed, short of conscipting a vast army of border patrollers. Practical solutions in politics acknowledge what is possible, that grey areas exist, and try to make the best of real or perceived problems. This should include embracing and nurturing talent, whether it comes from a rich, poor, black, white, asian or hispanic kids, including those whose parents dragged them across the border years ago.
Also, I’m not oblivious to the fact that dense concentrations of immigrant populations can cause problems (RE: your comment about “near the Mexican border”), but I don’t see why that should make people object more to those that not only *don’t* cause problems, but who promise to make a real contribution.
(And I honestly don’t see what your supposed analogy to Terry Nichols has to do with anything.)
I don’t see how what I said was a fallacy. I totally agree with you. Where’s the contradiction?
>> News flash man, people are MORALLY AUTONOMOUS. That means that for better or worse, we all have to judge right and wrong for ourselves.
do you live alone on a desert island?
so you are telling me that if you decide murder and theft are “correct” than society shall observe your decision??
News flash man! you may feel morally autonomous but i can assure you that you are bound by the law and the power that enforces it (meaning large men drag you away to a small room for many decades if you decide to push your own model in a disagreeable fashion).
your approach works on marlon brando’s tahitian atol, not in the USA.
>> and, as David Adams has pointed out, the policians know this, and know the economy would be seriously harmed if illegal immigration were curbed (hence Bush’s proposal for an amnesty last year.
you know nothing of US politics.
big agri (chicken farms, slaughterhouses, etc) and the retail and food services industries have been lining GWBs pockets and everyone else at the federal level to keep their flow of cheap abusable labor open. this has helped these industries lower wages and ERASE worker protections. do you know these people are routinely maimed on these jobs (slaughterhouses) and have no recourse? they used to when people could take the employer to court. NOT ANYMORE! who are you helping anyway???
did you know the state of texas sued the feds for not dilligently patrolling the border with mexico in texas? gee i guess not everyone is on your scoresheet.
Being against illegal immigration is in no way racist or looking down on people from third world countries. I have no problems with people that come here through legal means. The people that come here illegally however are messing up the system that is in place. These kids need to apply for a visa or student visa or get out of the US.
Think more with your head instead of your heart.
Many top schools guarantee that all admitted students will receive sufficient financial aid. A few, such as Princeton, provide grants so that you don’t have to take any loans in the process. Why don’t these students apply to one of them?
Complaints against illegal immigrants I’d take seriously if everyone had to earn the right to become a citizen and couldn’t jsut be born to it. Why shouldn’t other get what you got freely? This reeks of that whole “Divine Manifest Destiny” crap.
Fact is without cheap mexican labour many americans would have the all goods and SOL that they have: remember captilism works by exploiting the poorest.
>> Secondly, you’re deluding yourself if you think illegal immigration can ever be totally curbed, short of conscipting a vast army of border patrollers.
no one is claiming it will be shut off
we’d just like it to get down from the estimated 10,000 or so PER DAY.
yes i said 10,000 PER DAY
the states are taking matters into their own hands thankfully, and are cracking down on what illegals can do once inside, because god knows the Federal govt has absolutely NO INTENTION of even thinking of addressing the issue, because then the food service industry would not donate big $$$ to the republican national cmmtte
>> Complaints against illegal immigrants I’d take seriously if everyone had to earn the right to become a citizen and couldn’t jsut be born to it.
you’re right, they should enlist my 11 month old son in to the army and make him do some pushups first
your proposal makes no sense, are you saying newborns would have no citizenship in any country?
so instead of a few million illegal immigrants, we would have a few billion…everyone would be illegal until they could perform some rite of passage?
Hah hah. Dude, moral autonomy is an internal issue, not an external one. Might doesn’t make right. Just because something is illegal does not mean it is wrong, and just because something is legal does not mean it is right.
You want to equate “morally wrong” with “illegal”, because what is legal is very clear-cut and you can win any moral argument in which you find yourself on the side of the law. But all you can do if people disagree with you is attack their body. You don’t *become* right just because you succeed in throwing them in prison.
My point is that, with regard to morality, we are all on the atol you mention. There is no getting off it. Physically we are in downtown LA. But morally we are always on the atol.
I think you’ve gotten the wrong end of the stick here. The issues you’re referring to about the horrific conditions in slaughterhouses I acknowledge completely, and I totally agree with how completely the Republicans are in the pocket of agribusiness, but that’s a labor and human rights issue rather than an immigration one per se. Sure it concerns immigration, but it should be dealt with by regulation of agribusiness, not by trying to stamp out illegal immigration.
Their robot sounds quite cool.
>> Hah hah. Dude, moral autonomy is an internal issue, not an external one. Might doesn’t make right.
no, but Might does make Might. when the police drag you away and the judge puts you in the cell you will have the comfort of knowing you followed your bliss.
I see from where you are coming but there still is a problem: it’s not about equality, it’s about a felony. Lax your rules for those kids and even more immigrants will try to enter illegally. These immigrants will use this story for justifying their action (“Hey, I’m also a genius!”).
They should get back in Mexico and help their country. After all, they could find a use for their brains. Talented people shouldn’t aggregate exclusively in the US…
As for how they managed to beat MIT students… Well, I must say that I didn’t read the article but I guess they had more time to spare. They don’t have calculus or physics homeworks/exams. As an aspiring engineer, these things drain my spare time. I am not trying to belittle what they have done but I guess they took a more pragmatical way to do their robots that what we are used to…
Landed immigrant status perhaps or something similar. In ancient Greece you didn’t have to be a citizen to live in a city. Citizens got additional rights, but you didn’t need them to live in the city.
As for rite of passage how about a certificate of completing history, civics, politics, and economics courses so that citizens have reached a certain age and proven they the ability to use their most important right (i.e. voting) in an educated manner.
ow many of you actually earned ur us citizenship (or did any work towards getting it)?
and how many of u just had the dumb f*cking luck of being born on US soil like myself?
Earned? never said anyone has to earn the right tolive here just follow established law. I personally have served in the US armed forces does that count?
Law exists for a reason. Being smart doesn’t give you a right to skip just laws. We can’t just have everyone living here, here would quickly grow less attractive
.
>> Sure it concerns immigration, but it should be dealt with by regulation of agribusiness, not by trying to stamp out illegal immigration.
there *is* regulation of agribusiness. employees can complain when safety issues are being violated. they can use the court system and labor baords to address these issues.
BUT they can’t and won’t do that when they are illegals, even if many of these systems will actually let illegals file complaints!
being illegal means having no leverage, that you can’t get around. and no leverage means no wages and protections. i see you point in abstract, but frankly the best way to address this issue (among MANY others) is to curb illegal immigration
also this is the best way to get wages up for the recently immigrated – you can’t get a raise when someone outside will do the same job for even less than what you currently make, once again labor economics 101 – we are NOT HELPING these people! we are HURTING them.
i am an “undocumented” border patrol officer
I hear this over and over and it’s true that having a low paying worker base as part of our economy is valuable but having this flood of illegal immigration is doing more harm than good. The biggest stressors are:
1. Schools
2. Hospitals
3. Governments who keep handing out social benefits that were supposed to be reserved for legal citezens.
I favor immigration but not this mess. It’s hurts everyone and certainly exposes a huge hole in our security.
Furthermore the mexican population often gets payed under the table and send it home as opposed putting it back in our economy (no wonder why Mexico does nothing to help).
I really feel for the difficult lives that people in Mexico and other such countries have but that doesn’t make this right.
ABOUT THIS SPECIFICALLY:
I’m impressed they were able to do this but I can’t help but I feel very conflicted in donating anything (thus won’t). I hope that something could be done through a legal course.
Another thing. Immigration laws, like many other laws, have massive grey areas. I’m not suggesting allowing a massive hands-off free-for-all “let’s all head to the U.S” excursion for those south of the border. I’m just suggesting that pragmatic solutions are the order of the day rather than black-and-white edicts. That’s all.
>> Landed immigrant status perhaps or something similar. In ancient Greece you didn’t have to be a citizen to live in a city. Citizens got additional rights, but you didn’t need them to live in the city.
where are newborns immigrants from??? this makes zero sense.
oh by the way ancient greece had slaves and they routinely waged war on each other over minor disagreements. also there were no social services of any kind that you can envision. you might want to pick a better model.
as to not needing to be a citizen to live in a city…we also have visitors status. it lasts for 90 days and you are granted one any time you get off a plane here by default.
>> Another thing. Immigration laws, like many other laws, have massive grey areas.
yes, the US lets you jump the line if you are a nurse or programmer or were whipped/beaten/abused repeatedly by your former leader.
but all of these people have one thing in common – they lined up at 4am at the INS office to get a piece of paper. some didn’t get it. most did.
i don’t know why these people cannot get in the same line. the service is free.
Earned? never said anyone has to earn the right tolive here just follow established law. I personally have served in the US armed forces does that count?
Never said it HAD to be earned (OBVIOUSLY it does not). what’s your point? oh, u wanted to point out u were in the military…
yes, serving in the military does count (if that doesn’t what the hell does?!). so, my post was not directed at you. what r u replying to me for?
I read the article and these kids seem to be all below 18. That means they didn’t break the immigration law yet and they can do something to legally adjust their status before they turn 18 years old. I think getting a student visa would be hard though because it requires non-immigration intent which they clearly cannot prove. A better way for them would be to complete their undergrad degrees in Mexico and then come to US to do Master or PhD.
“it is a social contract…”
I’m a legal citizen, but deny that I am party to any social contract. Taxation for education is theft, no matter what size of majority is in favor of it. I don’t have any more responsibility to send your kid to school than I do to buy you a new sports car every year.
Nonsense. You, too, benefit from the education other people’s kids receive. And unless you have kids of your own, you should actually pay more taxes to make up for your social freeloading.
Don’t want to be part of a social contract? Move to a remote island with absolutely no connection to other human beings whatsoever.
You guys are angry at the wrong people. Immigrants for the most part are just like you and I, more like I. You should be angry at business owners who hire, exploit, undocumented workers. Being angry at person who is working, harder than most US citizens, to make a buck to get themselves through life is really not cool. Could it be that you guys are white men first, and working men second? Fight for workers rights, not for deportation of undocumented workers. If companies had to pay equal for undocumented workers as they do for documented workers, the job would go to the best man not the cheapest labor.
You guys are equating border crossing, to feed your family, to someone who kills thousands of people. This is just another one of those things where people want to come across as victims, conservatives are good at this.
this is the stupidest quickly growing thread ever on osnews. Can’t we just disable commenting on this altogether? Let people make up their own minds.
Hey you US citizens, residents or “white people”, how you like name you yourself.
Where do you came from, not you, your parents, and the parents of your parents, and so on?
All you in reallity are inmigrants, the diference to new inmigration is that your ancestors was cruel to conquer and now are cruel in a so called home.
The new conquest can’t be on the same way it was. Now, the people that work on the hard and unwantend work is filling the US.
Don’t cry for it. All things you have are posible thanks to the underground work of too many people. If they really hurt the country ¿Why they find jobs?
You don’t want to work From 7:00 to 18:00 planting potatoes.
US is a inmigrants country. That diversity is the reason to do the US grow.
What about pilgrims, inmigrants arriving to america.
What about of cow boys, inmigrants going far to the west.
What about the tea conflict, inmigrants fighting with other inmigrants for a new territory.
Was they illegals?
Did they stolen somebodyelse properties?
Did they take opportunities corresponding to somebody else?
Did they take the resources owned by a previous resident?
The answer is yes, just like now.
It’s the same thing, in a different way.
Also, Your skin color in a fair world don’t matter for anything, when you will learn it?
This boys deserves an oportunity, in our poors countries somethimes (if not always) the talent is wasted.
I think that somebody here gets hurt and jealousy, because some supposed inferior people can accomplish a great job.
Don’t really care what somebody in US think about this. Lately everybody in US will see that outside there are an inmense world.
Go ahead boys.
The person who wrote the law about illegal immigration probably read the book written by Machiavelli. Sometime back when immigration was open to everybody, all you need is a desire to own a piece of land and an expedition party to travel with. Now, immigration is a complicated system with a huge machinery running the show.
The government should repeal this law and just do what they are supposed to be doing. Help the immigrants get on their feet, give them jobs so they can pay taxes. Give them a land to farm on and they will hire more people which will pay more taxes.