On December 8, 2015, Microsoft released Windows 10 and Windows 10 Mobile updates on a global scale testing the Windows as a Service (WaaS) model. Besides the syncing of cumulative OS updates between desktop and phone, the event revealed that carriers seem to be sidelined. Here is why that is and what changed between Windows Phone 8.1 and Windows 10 Mobile.
Essentially, Microsoft seems to have “blackboxed” the radio stack, so that it can push updates without affecting it. Very, very nice.
Google will never sort out the update story for those that aren’t willing to lose access to SD cards or shell out the money for a premium Nexus device.
Now Microsoft cannot afford not updating the 8.1 devices when Windows Phone 10 becomes ready, otherwise they might just let it go.
Telemetry, NSA, here we go without carriers’ and users’ approval
I wonder why it is bad when Microsoft does it, but it is just fine when (Apple, Google, Facebook, Amazon,…) do it.
Probably because they didn’t have Scroogle campaing, so they are not looking like hypocrites.
And also, when you disable telemetry or service customization based on your data on Apple or Google device, it stays disabled.
Are you sure?
Have you read the code of all the apps running on your smartphone, including the server part services?
So can you point out code in AOSP that sends out your data?
You know, you are claiming that Google steals your data. What about providing proof of that? At least network dumps or firewall logs?
Because these firewall logs are pretty easy with Windows 10, even when privacy settings up to the max. Nothing similar happens with Android or OSX.
I never bothered to read the AOSP code, besides the majority of devices aren’t pure AOSP.
It has everything I do that depends on Google Services:
– GMail access
– All the apps that were bought via the store
– My location every time I use the maps
– The games I play and who are my ongame buddies
– To whom I speak with via Hangouts
Do you want a log of them as well?
– GMail access
If you store your mail on their servers, that’s obvious. However, you can store your email on other servers, including yours. Nobody forces you to use Gmail-as-service – you can use the Gmail app to access your IMAP mail, or use entirely different app to access your mail. Sony and Samsung have nice mail apps too.
It’s quite difficult to store mail without the provider having access to it – there are several companies trying to solve this problem, like Lavabit and Darkmail, but there’s nothing production-quality available yet.
– All the apps that were bought via the store
Surprisingly, when you purchase something, the vendor has to keep records of the fact. Same as Wallmart or Target, for example. (Sidenote: do you use credit or debet card, or loyalty card? Then the stores have much more info about you, than Google can even dream of). Google has to send you invoice, after all.
– My location every time I use the maps
Depends on the settings. You don’t have to use fused location provider (that one needs data from Google services – what wifi APs you see, etc. Mozilla has similar project). You can use purely device GPS, however, as it’s much slower to get location fix than the fused provider, it is not the default one.
If you object about Google knowing which map tiles you download – get another mapping app. Here Maps are quite nice.
– The games I play and who are my ongame buddies
Depends on the games. It’s up to the game developers to include Google Play Games into their games (or not). Some users demanded that as a feature.
– To whom I speak with via Hangouts
Again, it’s the same as complaining, that the phone company knows who you called. How do you expect them to provide the service?
If you are unhappy with Hangouts, use something else, Signal for example. But Signal has also central servers in order to find the parties that want to communicate.
Summary: none of the “issues” you complain about are issues in the operating system. They all are related to applications, that rely on the server side portion to do their job. You don’t have to use them. There are alternatives, that do not use server side services, and as a result, they miss some feature related to that.
What about ChromeOS then?
I think you are wrong. It is easy to setup an email server in-house, and you are the one in control and make it secure as possible.
So you can show us the logs of your Android device then? Because i look forward to seeing it. You can’t claim “its FOSS so it doesn’t spy” because they have stopped contributing to the AOSP not to mention Google has been stripping out more and more vital APIs and locking them behind the proprietary Google Playwall, citation..
http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/10/googles-iron-grip-on-android…
^ THIS!
Why people can’t understand / admit this?!
Mainly because when apps don’t behave like they should, or are sending data without permission, SOMEONE in the community finds out about it and DOES read the damn code!
Edited 2015-12-11 16:55 UTC
Although it may sometimes be confirmed that way, the discovery of monitoring is never accomplished by reading the code. It is done by monitoring the output from the device to see what it is and where it is going.
Hi,
The funny part is, open source means anyone can download the code and add their malicious/monitoring to it before installing it and/or selling the device. There’s no guarantee the source you see is the source that was actually used (and even if you compile it yourself, there’s been some clever “malicious compiler” experiments in the past). 🙂
Examining the output is an effective way to avoid these problems (assuming the tool you use to examine the output hasn’t been diddled with too).
– Brendan
It’s really no different for phones. The phone hardware has typically been so diverse that all the manufacturers get source to build even the proprietary operating systems (QNX, Windows, etc) for those devices.
Big difference is that in Open Source you can (a) track it if it became part of the open source code base, or (b) blame the middleman and avoid it by going to a different vendor.
Yes, I’m sure. I’ve disabled location services for quite a long time. On my NexusOne it make a huge difference in battery life, and apps would complain if they needed it, or (as with cameras) just skip that information if not available.
I kept it enabled on my Moto X (2014, 2nd Gen) and now on my Moto G (2015, 3rd Gen) and the battery life is not hit any where near as hard (I honestly don’t notice it); I mainly use it for Google Fit tracking.
So yes, the OS can disable it and it actually remains disabled.
EDIT: And yes, I can be sure on the Moto X and G that it’s disabled when I disable it as apps do complain about the services not being available if they need it – whether Google Fit, Google Maps, or any thing using GPS or location services.
Edited 2015-12-11 23:07 UTC
Except you CAN’T be sure (at least in the ‘once and for all’ sense).
Who is stopping the OS developer from, say, enabling some kind of telemetry in their next update? You will have to measure outgoing telemetry from your device every time…
And this brings up the key point: as long as you receive some sort of software update, you can’t be sure things stay like you want unless you personally check for it, every time. And you can’t avoid updates because of security, either… (Once upon a time Windows didn’t have the Update service, and people complained because of missing security patches; now it has it, and people complain because of privacy breach => overall trend = complain forever!)
Long story short: if you want real privacy, don’t trust ANY of the major vendors and their products, because they’re more or less the same in this respect. Oh, and good luck dealing with the modern technology world, then! 😉
P.S. Plus, why you talked geolocation when the main object of discussion was that so-called telemetry? Does not seem fully supporting of your rationale.
On Android all location services are enabled/disabled with the same settings. While Windows reports telemetry (application usage), Android doesn’t – or it as least not known to outside of the AppStores tracking what you install; you get the option of reporting stuff when things fail, but it’s your option to do so. So the only comparable thing in Android is the location services, which is geolocation type-stuff.
Don’t forget to read the code for any compiler and/or libraries that may have been used in place of the published versions a la Dennis Ritchie’s subverted Unix binaries with back doors in them.
Of course you will have to find them — and then get access to them — first. If you have good contacts this may still be impossible, so forensic comparison of binaries and examination of decompilations may provide some hints. But you still won’t be
, just looking at some outputs from various procedures.
Because Windows is 90% of computers out there, hence the impact is broader.
And because I don’t own overpriced Apple stuff, use my gmail account as little as possible, have no Facebook account, rarely use Amazon (reliable) services, …
But I’m still ‘forced’ to use Windows because that’s mostly what my job requires me to. Until Desktop Linux finally rise someday
Only if you ignore smartphones.
How do you disable data collection on those?
How? By installing Linux or BSD. You can no longer trust ANY of the megacorporations.
You mean like Jolla, FF OS and Tizen?
Good luck.
Guys, the topic here is Windows 10 Mobile. The thing that runs on phones. Talking about installing FreeBSD/Linux or Microsoft having 90% market share makes no sense here.
In Windows 10 Mobile there is a section in settings called Privacy. It currently has 17 subsections ranging from Location, Call History, Radios, Advertising ID, Contacts and “Speech, inking & typing”. Per subsection you can turn it on or off and when it is on you can enable/disable it on a per app basis. Every app lists the permissions it will request in the store and you have to confirm those permissions the first time an app requests them.
So even when I turn location services on, the build in maps and camera app still ask for permission to use location
This is something Microsoft (and to a lesser degree, Apple) gets right, and Google gets totally wrong. Speaking strictly of mobile OSes, Microsoft offers the most granular control over privacy settings, which (to me at least) makes the privacy nightmare that is Windows 10 on the desktop all the more frustrating. I sincerely hope Microsoft patches desktop Windows security and privacy so that it behaves more like mobile Windows, but I’m not holding my breath.
Edited 2015-12-13 12:31 UTC
This part basically works the same on Windows 10 and Windows 10 Mobile. Even the default “Privacy Express” option during the setup that does offer a Customize option but only for those that are really looking for it.
Of course on Windows 10 this only works for store apps, not for “normal” programs. And on Windows 10 there has been quite some uproar about things being send to the cloud even if you “turned off everything” but I never saw any conclusive evidence that anything bad/unwanted was actually still being send to Microsoft.
I do wish Microsoft would be more open about everything they do on Windows 10 but I also realize that it is mostly people like you and me that actually bother to have a look at these settings. My parents just agree to everything unless I point out some issues (like connecting to unsafe Wifi’s by default)
Here ya go, the only traffic analysis I’ve found of Windows 10 and the results? Yeah I’m treating Win 10 like plague blankets until somebody shows me they can truly disable the spying..
http://www.disclose.tv/news/a_terrifying_traffic_analysis_of_window…
TL:DR? It looks like they left on the keylogger, and every time you use your cam or mike it sends data to different addresses.
“Spybot Anti-Beacon is a standalone tool which was designed to block and stop the various tracking (telemetry) issues present in Windows 10. It has since been modified to block similar tracking functionality in Windows 7, Windows 8 and Windows 8.1 operating systems.
Anti-Beacon is small, simple to use, and is provided free of charge. It was created to address the privacy concerns of users of Windows 10 who do not wish to have information about their PC usage sent to Microsoft. Simply clicking “Immunize†on the main screen of Anti-Beacon will immediately disable any known tracking features included by Microsoft in the operating system.”
https://www.safer-networking.org/spybot-anti-beacon/
I had to buy a Windows 10 laptop recently for work and the first thing I installed on it was this.
Thanks for providing the link to disclose.tv. Unfortunately disclose doesn’t actually disclose their source. They just mention “some czech guy” and “aeronet.cz” without providing an actual link or verifying the claims that are made there. That site even mentions that that source is questionable.
I tried to verify some of the claims there but stopped after the first two because they were both nonsense. The first:
“All text typed on the keyboard is stored in temporary files, and sent (once per 30 mins) to…..”
I already found it strange that they mentioned where those files were send to in great detail but they didn’t mention the filenames. I tested by typing some very weird words and couldn’t find them back in any file on my disk.
The second:
“When a webcam is first enabled, ~35mb of data gets immediately transmitted to….”
I enabled the webcam on a clean install in a local program and saw no data being transmitted over the internet.
So my conclusion is simple: Pure bullocks.
Next time I probably will not even have such a detailed look on a site that claims on the very same page:
“Apocalypse begins: Upgrade to Windows 10 is now mandatory for all Windows 7-8 users”
“Exclusive! Grey Alien EBEN Captured On Camera!”
“Mermaid Alien Captured Camera 2014 HD”
Here is a reliable source that does raise some questions that still haven’t been answered anywhere as far as I know: http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/08/even-when-tol…
Edited 2015-12-13 23:24 UTC
What? Are you seriously implying that folders potentially containing such logs, if they existed, would be indexed by the OS?
This is about as conclusive as any claim from an unknown guy from the internetz.
Nobody was talking about “indexing by the OS”. I use Total Commander to search all files on the disk and even searched in alternative data streams.
The original claim was that these files were stored on disk without any mentioning of them being hidden in any way. Now you are trying to imply that Microsoft would be coding their OS in such a way that they would hide files from the filesystem? The burden of proof has moved from me to you sir winter skies
Oh please, Sir, your reply is borderline sophistic.
I just assumed you were searching for files containing specific text with the search tool built in the OS rather than with a third party tool. Ok?
Due to a bad track record with searching for my own files that way, it looked very unlikely that anyone might find the above mentioned “keylogs” that way.
Is it clearer now?
Really as far from the tinfoil hattish craziness you seem to suggest here as possible.
My bad. I should have behaved more like a researcher and published my method together with my result. I mistakenly assumed it would be obvious that anyone researching these kind of issues would use the right tools to do so.
What are you talking about “without the users approval”?
You can simply choose to disable updates….done
Windows 10 Mobile seems to have by far the best update capability.
* Weakest point = Upgrade from the past: If you are a normal user and are on 8.1 you will have to wait until 10 is available for you. This is similar to Android, but with a Nexus-like promise that all Nokia/Microsoft devices will get that update as soon as possible (and that is 95% of the market, not a few percent like in Android)
* Strong point = Update from the current: If you already have 10 you will “forever” get updates if you choose to accept them (similar to iOS)
* Strongest point = You can choose to get bleeding edge updates without hacking or rooting your phone. Just install the Windows Insider app and choose fast ring. This is like a Beta-Channel so only for enthousiast (like me)
* If bleeding edge is too much for you but you like new stuff there is a similar slow ring that only gets reliable beta’s after they have been tried and tested for a while
* There is an official device recovery tool that will put the latest official release back on your phone even if it would have been entirely bricked software-wise.
I am already running the latest (non-beta) Windows 10 Mobile release on my 1520 and it has given me a better OS, better integrated apps, and also unlocked several hardware features like 4K and slowmotion recording, MiraCast (WiDi) support and Hey Cortana.
MiraCast + BlueTooth mouse and keyboard actually give me a nice (poormans) Continuum like experience that works with all apps (just not 2nd screen)
I really hope that Microsofts Universal App Platform catches on. Not only because I personally like Windows 10 Mobile, but also because just having a whole lot of Android and a bit of iOS isn’t enough of an ecosystem
You do realize that Microsoft is making headlines for pushing Windows 10 downloads out on users whether they want it or not, don’t you?
Yeah, they stopped for a little while but they’ve resumed to doing so to Win7 and Win8 users. With WinPhone, I wouldn’t be surprised if they pushed it out as an update to the existing phones to try to improve what little marketshare they have.
Every Android users complaining on manufacturers selling new phone instead of updating the OS… Isn’t is a good news that Microsoft pushing out Windows 10 Mobile for quite all current WindowsPhones ?
I doubt MS is pushing Windows 10 as an upgrade for most of its WP users. Given the % of bricked phones that would ensue, it would be a PR nightmare and the last coffin in a coffin which is already half way into the cemetery as it is.
“last nail” –coffee had not kicked in yet.
Difference would be that on Android you have to accept the upgrades; and if they do to WP what they’ve been doing to Win7/8 to push Win10, it won’t be a request to the user to at least start the download (user’s still, at least for the time, have to confirm to install, but in the mean time they’re using up several gigs of diskspace without consent.)
And, FYI, most of Android is now updatable without the carrier involvement either – you just need to have the Google Play Store installed and be doing updates – no different than having to use the Microsoft Windows Store for updates on WP.
Can you stop spreading FUD?
Microsoft has never pushed Windows 10 to anyone. I agree that they are pushing (too) hard for people to upgrade but nobody ever woke up and had their computer silently updated from 7/8.1 to 10.
It also makes no sense that Microsoft would increase it’s market share by updating everyone to Windows Mobile 10. That would just keep the marketshare of Windows Phone/Mobile the same.
Windows 10 Mobile will not be force on any current user, they will still have to accept the update when it comes just like on iOS. But just like on iOS almost everyone will accept it. (but if they don’t like it they can still revert back with some effort)
Microsoft has been pushing updates from Windows Phone 8 to 8.1 and that hasn’t resulted in a whole bunch of bricked phone and PR-nightmares. They already officially announced that all (Nokia/Microsoft) phones will get the update to Windows Mobile 10 with the only exception being phones that don’t have enough storage to perform the update (4 GB phones). Even those phones can probably get the update (clean installed) by using a future version of the Device Recovery Tool.
And the comparison with Android updating via the Play store is just wrong. Updating Android via the Play store is just like installing Service Pack 2 and a new .NET Framework and browser on Windows XP. Sure, you are protected a bit better and you can run some more programs and websites but you are still running the ancient OS with all its limitations
Edited 2015-12-12 22:15 UTC
Microsoft HAS been downloading 6GBs of Windows 10 installation files to computers without user permission. While I haven’t had that happen personally, I was hit by the “Get Windows 10” spam advertising.
Fortunately, this Windows XP computer appears immune from such crap.
Do you just like bashing on Microsoft, because nothing of what you say has any relevance to the topic here which is Windows 10 Mobile being able to update itself without having to go through carrier approval.
I fully agree that Microsoft is too aggressive in pushing Windows 10, but mentioning a download and a popup that you can get a free upgrade is just trolling
So in an of itself, yes the numbers would be the same. However, it would unify the base which they would then try to use to show developers that Win10 Phone is growing in order to try to get more apps. Stupid managers that don’t look beyond the press releases would get behind it. So it’s relevant from one point.
We share the opinion that Microsoft is pushing the Windows 10 Update too hard to Windows 7/8.1 users. As far as I know Microsoft has only pushed the bits to Windows 10 to users harddisk in 1 of 2 situations:
1) They opted in to receive the “Get Windows 10 when it is ready”. I have no problem with that other than the very pushy notifier.
2) They enabled “Optional Downloads” and “Download files in the background so they are ready for installation”. I disagree with Windows 10 qualifying as an optional download but theoretically Microsoft is in the clear here
I asked you to stop spreading FUD because you said this:
I already responded to that, but the main issue is that you say that updating Windows Phone is no different to Android and goes through the store. That is not true even if I take your “most of Android” into account. Updating (built-in) apps goes through the store. Updating the OS doesn’t go through the store and is different between Windows and Android, especially if you consider the topic of this news item.
Here is the thing:
People who run Windows 7/8/8.1 don’t expect an update to 10.
People who run Windows Phone 8/8.1 do expect an update to Windows Mobile 10.
There is no real reasoning behind this other than “that is how it has always been in the past with Microsoft and Desktop and Mobile OS-ses”
So if Microsoft will put numbers together to say that (making up numbers here) 50 million people are running WM10 and 150 million are running W10 so there is a 200 million customer market for your Universal Ap…well, that would be fair right? Just like adding the numbers for Android on Phone and Tablet together, or for iOS.
That still doesn’t mean that Microsoft is going to suddenly quietly update everyone on WP8 to 10 (which basically everyone would welcome) or that they will suddenly quietly update everyone from 7/8/8.1 to 10 on the Desktop (which most people would still probably welcome but I would find unacceptable)
Well, that fallacious.
Windows Mobile never got updates.
And Windows Phone has been notorious for NOT updating between major versions. Got WP7? You did NOT get an update to WP8; you *might* have gotten the updates to WP7.5. Got WP8? You *might* have gotten an update to WP8.1, but you won’t likely get the update to WP10. That’s just Windows Phone history.
Please spot the historical trend:
1 Ancient times: Windows Mobile (the old one) comes from a time where device OS-Updates didn’t happen.
2. History: You are right about the update from 7 to 8. No phone got updated from 7 to 8 because it wasn’t technically possible. Basically every phone got updated from 7 to 7.5 to 7.8 though.
3. Recent history: Basically every single phone got updated from 8 through 3 GDR’s to 8.1 through 2 GDR’s. Most of these updates were accompanied by device/carrier specific firmware and even those reached basically everybody. If you want to test that, just have a look here and try to find any phone/country/carrier that isn’t on Denim: http://www.microsoft.com/en/mobile/support/software-update/lumia-so… (there is probably a similar list for non-European countries)
4. Current/future: Microsoft has officialy announced that all (Nokia) Windows Phones will receive the update to Windows 10 Mobile as long as they have enough storage (>4 GB, total, not free) to perform that update. The 4 GB devices can probably be updated through other ways (Device Recovery Tool) but that isn’t official. In the meantime devices that already had Windows 10 just got their first official update (the topic of this entire post)
And that is just the mama and papa situation. Enthousiast could install the Developer Preview / Insider app and get updates ahead of the official schedule, just by installing an app, no rooting/hacking involved and directly from Microsoft.
Don’t you love hard facts instead of soft opinions that turn out to be incorrect?
And yet my gaming desktop is still running Windows 7 Home Premium, and doesn’t nag me to install Windows 10 at all, nor has it downloaded the installer behind my back. It certainly hasn’t performed a sneak attack installation when I looked away for a few minutes.
I swear, I could make millions from teaching a simple Udemy class called “I’m a moron, show me how to configure updates on my PeeCee pls”.
True, but it is taking up several gigabytes of your disk that you could be using for more games…
For some, that might not be an issue; but others – especially those with lower spec systems or older systems.
My point was not that they were forcing Win10 upgrades yet (though that will likely occur in the future) but that they’re forcing the download of files.
You missed this part, even though you quoted it:
“…nor has it downloaded the installer behind my back.“
I’d suggest you check again.
Microsoft started doing just that on Windows 7 and later systems; people complained so they stopped; they recently started doing so again.
Or perhaps you have all of the auto-update functionality disabled so you only do manual updates…
Re-read my first post in this thread, where I talk about properly configuring updates. 😉
Doesn’t seem to matter as it is now being reported that Microsoft is actively changing those settings and soon to re-classify the Win10 upgrade so that Windows Users will either be pestered to death by notices until they upgrade or sneakingly get updated by a reclassification.
See http://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonkelly/2015/12/16/microsoft-window…
Absolutely horrible move by microsoft. I actually have a hard time believing that would be true because it would violate their own article about controlling the Windows 10 Update: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3080351
Still, you could configure Windows Update in such a way that you wouldn’t get downloads and notifications but that would not be something that I can recommend for regular users.
Unfortunately I have to agree with the Forbes article that this would push basically all users to Windows 10. Now I would normally argue that Windows 10 is better than 7/8/8.1 but pushing this hard is absurd. Microsoft, you need to respect peoples choice and not OS-Rape them!
(Now on the other hand, if Microsoft can finally start OFFERING Windows 10 Mobile to all the Windows Phones like they promised they would that would be greatly appreciated)
you mean 95% of a “market” where the market is actually under 3% of the smartphone market.
Of course that is what I mean.
Android has > 80% marketshare, Windows Phone has < 5% marketshare
But Nokia/Microsoft has sold far more phones than Google has sold Nexus phones. That makes Microsofts promise of updating all Nokia phones from 8 to 10 far more relevant than Googles Nexus promise.
It is hard to find actual numbers about Nexus sales, but the Nexus 4 had about 370.000 in 3 months and was considered a popular device. So let’s estimate “a few million” in 2014. Nokia/Microsoft had about 35 million in 2014 so 10 to 20 times as many. Again, these are rough numbers but the best that I could quickly find.
And that Nexus 4, that won’t get the update to Android 6! While similar old phones like my 1020 will get it (and is actually already running it through the Insider program. No hacking/rooting/sideloading/beta involved).
With 7% of WP now running WM10, there might actually be more people running the latest version of Windows Mobile compared to the latest version of Android (which would only last until the day Samsung release their OTA updates for just their latest model)
Now if you are saying that Microsoft should bring out their software for the other “97%” of the total market…that is just nonsense of course, but not as much nonsense as you might think: http://www.windowscentral.com/windows-10-mobile-rom-now-available-x…
<giant sarcasm>World domination, here WM10 comes</giant sarcasm>
Funny that you consider Nexus a “premium” phone, when often they sell for hundreds of dollars less than the “flagship” phones from LG, Samsung and Sony.
Not any more. The latest Nexus 6 devices are on par with iPhone devices for price – typically $600-$700 a unit.
Now that was true in the NexusOne days; but that changed around Nexus 5 I think.
Eh, no. The cheapest iPhone of the latest generation ($665) is still quite a bit more expensive than the Nexus 6p with twice the storage ($590). If you want the more comparable 6S Plus, you need to pay even more ($779), and that’s still only 16 GB. Prices lifted from the cheapest option on Amazon.
And the Nexus 5X is still cheaper than the Galaxy S6, which has seen heavy price cuts since launch.
That’s still not “hundreds” of dollars in difference in price, and iPhone has models in those same price ranges. THAT was my point – they’re in the same price ranges, not the vast difference that it use to be.
When the NexusOne launched I spent about $529 – including the Car Dock and something else; the phone itself was closer to $400. At the time, the iPhone was in the $650-$750 range for just the phone. THAT is no longer the case.
I’d hardly call the Nexus 5X premium. At best, it’s on the upper end of mid-range. I scored one on Black Friday for $300.
Meh. Microsoft mismanaged this platform to hell. This would’ve been interesting two or three years ago.
It needs to be killed. Aside from developer tools, the platform has very little redeeming qualities left. Everything interesting has been either dropped or picked up by a competitor.
dev tools are all it “needs”. Make it easy for devs to get their apps on to the platform and the main thing its “trailing” on is solved (lack of apps).
The whole mobile market has basically stagnated, Windows phone needs to now capitalize on that. Hardware has become generic to the point a £200 phone is as good as a £500 phone for the majority and all the platforms have converged on a shared feature set.
Windows phone is unique in that it can now bring the whole platform along for the ride and get rid of the platform fragmentation that plagues Android and (to a lesser extent) iOS
Stagnated ? Perhaps because the technology is hugely mature and already far too overkill for just a portable phone. Please remember today smartphones outperform flagship computers just 4 or 5 years old.
Yes, like you say. Its mature and now all platforms work in basically the same way with the same features. To me, thats also stagnation.
But… if it fills 100% of our usage, what would you more just for the sake of having more and not stagnating ?
No no no, they really don’t. Maybe if you reverse it to “todays flagship smartphones outperform 4 or 5 year old ell cheapo crap pc’s, but no smartphone comes close to a top of the line computer from 5 years ago.
The only reason Windows Phones are not nearly as fragmented as Android is that there are almost none out there other than what few Microsoft makes, and even those won’t be out there for long.
Microsoft has screwed and burned the pooch so many times in the Windows Phone line that it’s time to scatter the ashes to the wind and leave the market altogether.
I partly agree. Some things that made 8 unique have been gradually dropped, mostly because they didn’t fit Microsofts cross-platform idea. Fortunately they are starting to recreate some things (home group).
There are still many things that make Windows Mobile unique though. The homescreen is probably the first that will always come to mind. Offline Maps is a very important one for me personally. But probably the most important is the fact that Windows 10 Mobile is just another build of Windows 10 and Universal Apps very nicely adjust to the device it runs on.
In general I would say that the things I miss about Windows 10 Mobile are also not present in iOS/Android (Gestures, landscape mode, localized digital assistant). On the OS-side and build-in apps Windows 10 Mobile seems to have good performance and batterylife, a good keyboard, notification center, mailclient, maps, camera, etc.
Let me reverse it: Is there anything unique about iOS/Android that Windows 10 Mobile is missing?
Now Android has Here Maps with the offline features as well.
Can you sideload applications ?
Is there good gaming emulators like Retroarch and PPSSPP ?
Plex ?
File explorer handling Samba shares allowing you to playback any video in any container and codec ?
I was talking about the OS and you are talking about apps that you need to add. But let’s see:
Windows 10 Mobile doesn’t have Here Maps anymore, it just has Maps build in, which contains all the functionality of all the old Here applications in one and has them as an OS feature. So when I have an appointment with a location in it I can just click that location in the build in calendar and get directions. All build in and all offline. Same for finding my car back where I parked it by last (bluetooth) location.
Sideloading apps is possible by default. There is a special feature for companies to “provision” a phone with apps that are not in the store.
I don’t use any emulators myself, but a quick search turned up VBA8 (gameboy advance), Nesbox emulator, GBC emulator, Snes8x, C64, etc.
I also don’t use Plex, but it is there in the store just like VLC (which I do use). Plex doesn’t support chromecast but there are several other apps that do from both youtube or your own onedrive
There is a file explorer build into the OS that gives access to the built-in storage and the SD-Card. I have used it to move around a few old podcasts (also build-in) but have no other need for it.
I found Yuki Explorer in the store that mentions support for SMB/CIFS and a whole bunch more
So basically it seems that Windows 10 Mobile has more of what you mentioned already build into the OS and if it isn’t in the OS you can add it by installing some apps.
Good to know that apps are indeed available.
I did not really understand the point about sideloading. Could I, the end user, sideload an app ?
I am interested about windows phone for the continuum feature.
Yes, sorry for being unclear about sideloading. Here is how it works:
You go to settings, update & security, for developers. There you find these 3 options:
1) Windows Store apps: Only install apps from the Windows Store.
2) Sideload apps: Install apps from other sources that you trust, such as your workplace.
3) Developer mode: Install any signed app and use avanced development features
1 is of course the default, but when you select 2 you get this warning “Installing and running apps from outside the Windows Store could expose your device and personal data to security risks or harm your device. Turn on app sideloading? Yes/No”
Sideloading is normally only used by developers, but the mode I mentioned earlier is for business that provide managed phones to their employees and want to put several apps on it (provision), some of which might be custom made company apps that are never put in the store
Slightly related, there are also several modes on the phone that only allow you to use a couple of the installed apps: Kids Corner is for …kids, and Apps Corner is for giving your phone to somebody else for a bit without giving them access to all the apps
I haven’t used Continuum personally and hear it is quite limited at the moment: Universal Apps on the new 950/950XL only. But with Miracast and a Bluetooth mouse and keyboard you can almost reach the same result and that works on my 1520 and several other older phones as well
To answer your last question: Mindshare, momentum, entrenchment.
All things equal Windows 10 Mobile would be pretty good, but things are not equal, and in my opinion it doesn’t come nearly close to making up for that in standout features.
Trust me, I believed and still want to believe, but I don’t really think there’s a way forward for Microsoft here. I argued until I was blue in the face on the merits of their mobile efforts, but after a while you get tired of blunder after blunder.
If you look at their, what, 4 platform resets since WP7, you start to wonder if the inmates are running the asylum.
Windows 10 on the PC is fantastic. Maybe a rising tide can lift all boats, but I honestly am all out of hope for Windows 10 Mobile.
There has been 1 platform reset since Windows Phone 7 and that was Windows Phone 8. After that there have been many updates that have been free and available to all phones (unless the carrier blocked it but then you could get it through the insider programs).
My previous 1020 went from 8 to 8.1 and now 10
My families 3 1520’s went from 8 to 8.1 to 10.
None of those updates were platform resets. They were gradual updates that added functionality and even unlocked some hardware features
There were four. Windows Phone 7 Silverlight apps on .NET CF 3.7, Windows Phone 8 with Silverlight+WinPRT underpinnings running on CoreCLR, Windows Phone 8.1 with proper Windows.UI.Xaml, and now Windows 10 UWP which is another target altogether.
The jump from 7 -> 8 apps was less Involved. Except 8 apps didn’t run on WP7, library support moved to WP8 and maintaining two was annoying. XNA died around this time. So you went the native code route. Except how interop was done changed again in 8.1. Then again in 10. Not fun.
The good news is that all of that is behind them now. The dev tools and platform are fantastic and in sync across multiple device form factors. A true universal app runtime. I just don’t know if it’s enough at this point, though I wouldn’t mind being wrong here.
Edited 2015-12-13 03:21 UTC
Thanks for that information. I have developed software for Windows Phone 8, 8.1 and 10 but never felt like the platform was reset even as a developer. I simply felt my development tools constantly got updated, just like I constantly get new JavaScript frameworks to work with that often aren’t very compatible.
From a user perspective there has been 1 reset: 7-> 8 where the entire underlying platform changed and upgrading wasn’t possible. My current W10M runs on my phones that started with 8 and still runs some of my favorite apps from that period that haven’t been updated at all, that is why I never felt it was a reset of the platform, just regular updating
Having access to insider builds without flashing roms from 3rd party websites? Yes please
No delays from carrier networks on having those updates in place? Yes please
Liquid cooling to keep the phone running nice and smooth (similar to a PC)? Yes please..
Problem is that the usage of a computer has broaden so greatly since the mobile revolution that the remaining PC users that would like to have this phone is still not as high as Microsoft hopes.
I know two year old kids that used an iPhone and chances are they will never get to see a PC in person by the time they grow up.
I have an iPhone5 and I am switching to WP. I just bought a Lumia 640 and I love it. I wasn’t that excited about Windows 10 but the recent upgrade to IOS9.1 made my phone slow and sucky. And I really don’t like to new Apple design direction. Also I wanted an iPod with 128GB. Do you know how much that will cost? US$300+. Lumia has a microSD slot. Do you know how much 128GB microSD costs? US$50.
Yes there is a paucity of apps for WP. Do you know how many apps I use on a daily basis? Not many. I really like have Microsoft Office on my phone. I love the screen on this little beast. HD movies from Netflix are really nice. Much nicer than iPhone. Here are some pluses of Lumia:
Great screen, movies are beautiful
Expandable memory with microSD cards
Really, really long battery life
Tactile vibrating feedback
Can record calls
Runs real Microsoft Office
By the way, Microsoft is shutting down its phone and Windows phone OS divisions!
Pure nonsense. They just released three new phones (550, 950, 950XL), a new OS that already got the first update (the reason for this actual article) and every day several of the build-in apps are being updated.
The Surface team also just got the order to start working on a Surface phone that should be available this time next year.
People that spread pure lies like you should simply be banned
(I do have a hard time believing that the screen of the 640XL is better than that of the latest iPhone 6s Plus, but it might surely be comparable to the smaller and low resolution screens that Apple uses in the non-Plus iPhones)
Edited 2015-12-12 23:04 UTC
Astroturfers don’t like competition, apparently.
I am pretty sure you accused me of being an astroturfer before which makes no sense at all. I am just trying to provide facts and experience to discussions here on OsNews, even just posting under my regular name.
Please point to something that I lied about before you insult me again. If you don’t like helpful people like me on this site that is too bad for you
LMAO, you went from advocating to ban people, whose opinion you don’t like, to play the victim in 2 seconds flat.
Thank you for your “helpful” contribution… to the microsoft’s PR effort, I guess.
According to you this is an opinion? “By the way, Microsoft is shutting down its phone and Windows phone OS divisions!”
That is not an opinion, that is a straight out lie. I have no problem with suggesting that people that tell straight out lies should get banned.
And then you accused me of astroturfing…again. I am not playing any victim, but I do point out things that are simply wrong. So let me state this 100% clearly, again: I don’t receive anything for anything that I post here or anywhere else online. The only salary that I receive is from my boss for my 9-5 day job.
My helpful contribution here has nothing to do with PR. I give both positive and negative comments on plenty of products and even do so in this thread (screen quality of the 640XL, usefulness of Continuum, pushing Windows 10 too much). When people are uninformed I like to inform them to the best of my knowledge and sometimes a bit beyond that so I learn a bit myself.
Thanks, you totally showed me how you’re not “astroturfing” by telling me about your “astroturfing.” LOL.
I joke when I use that term, astroturf, because this is obviously a two-bit site, and I pretty much doubt any corporation is wasting any money trying to influence a couple of dozen people who read this site regularly.
The reality is sadder; just another fool going out of their way, investing their time and energy pro bono, to help preserve the image (and mindshare) of a mega corporation that could give two shits about them.
Actually I showed you I am not astroturfing by telling me about my NON-astroturfing. No idea why that gets you to “LOL”, why you use astroturfer as a joke, or why your are calling me a fool.
I am not doing this to preserve the image and mindshare of a megacorporation. I am doing this to help other people here that don’t know well about this platform.
OSNews is a site that I like quite a lot, where I get a lot of useful information from the articles AND from the comments. I don’t just take, I give back as well. I do that here for technology related topics, but also on some other forums related to other hobbies of mine. Why you think the purpose of all of that is too influence people…still sounds like you are stuck in the astroturfing way of thinking. I just like smart (well informed) people
That is meaningless when what is given back is basically worthless; pro-Microsoft PR and damage control talking points. One can get a better experience by simply going straight to the source:
https://www.microsoft.com/OEM/en/salesmarketing/Pages/index.aspx
I laugh, simply because the alternative would be to cry. Individuals going out of their way, wasting their precious time on this earth, to shill for a mega-corporation that, as I pointed earlier, does not give two craps about them, to me at least that seems like a a rather sad and depressing aspect of the current condition of things. Cheers.
Edited 2015-12-16 19:43 UTC
Here is some more ‘help’:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonkelly/2015/12/16/why-microsoft-sa…
http://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonkelly/2015/12/16/microsoft-window…
These are both by the same author and somewhat duplicative; the link at the end of the second article brings up the one I posted first.
They are written very clearly and offer easy to follow suggestions for those who may not be as tech savvy as OS News readers including how to, at least temporarily, avoid an upgrade for those able and willing to change their “core Windows Update settings” in order to dodge it.
Those are some great links. I really hope Microsoft will receive a lot of backlash for this so they learn to respect users choice again. They were already pushing way to hard on the upgrades but this is ridiculous. I even believe the two different screens (1 without the now/tonight option and the other with only the now option) are part of an A/B test. They seem to be basically test how much they can get away with and that is horrible behavior.
Thanks for pointing me to that writer, I added him to my “GeekNews” bookmarks.
Actually avgalen wants to ban people who are obviously trolling the forum via misinformation and outright lies. You just twisted avgalen‘s words to make a nonsense argument, which is a classic troll tactic, and the very thing avgalen is calling out (lying to prove a point). Another classic troll move is calling someone a shill or accusing them of astroturfing, which I’ve noticed you’re quick to do whenever someone disagrees with your opinion.
Why am I not surprised?
The peanut gallery doth projecting a wee bit too much, methinks.
So it’s ad hominem attacks all around eh? Yet another troll tactic. You need to up your game, my friend.
… but enough about yourself.
Looks at Tylers avatar,
sees “I has a shovel”,
hopes Tyler will someday learn about the law of holes (Here, let me google that for you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_holes)
Until that time I am simply going to walk away from that pit you have put yourself in
And fundamentalists don’t like facts being reported in a different way, apparently.
Only, in case you decide to blow yourself up, just make sure to alert us all in advance. >-D
For anyone that wants to veryify which are the facts and which are the nonsense: https://news.microsoft.com/2015/07/08/satya-nadella-email-to-employe…. That is the message from 5 months ago that basically got executed to the letter since.
Erm… How can I explain myself…
_My post was not directed to you_. Actually I was / am agreeing with you on the same points you discussed. Have you perhaps skipped one line in my quotes?
And in any case, mine was just _hyperbolic provoking_ (noticed the non-serious smiley at the end?). Since some other users seem only capable of yelling / slinging mud at their discussion peers, sometimes the only way to shut them up (temporarily) is to play at their level. 🙁
Going down to someones level is actually not needed at all. Shouting back at somebody who shouts at you actually creates a shouting match, not a useful discussion or even anything worth listening for outsiders.
Also: misquoting, smiley-abuse, calling somebody a fundamentalist, thinking that somebody else is missing lines in your posts while you are the one doing that …It might be worth it to assess your level a bit.
(although I have also seen some pretty high level response from you in this topic and others)
They are around CAD$100 – CAD$200 here, honestly, I hate my country when it comes to buying stuff!
This would happen with all Android phones!
Are these updates being pushed only when the phone is on wifi,or at the very least is that an option? If not, who is going to cover the costs associated with overages of data if it is caused by one of these updates?
Of course this will never result in costs on your cellular network:
Choose how updates are installed:
* Automatic (recommended). Keep everything running smoothly. We’ll restart your device automatically when you’r not using it. Updates won’t download over a metered connection (where charges may apply).
* Notify to schedule restart. You’ll be asked to schedule a restart to finish installing updates. Updates won’t download over a metered connection (where charges may apply).
There is actually a setting “Data usage” where you can prevent any mobile data usage, or specify a data usage limit (monthly, one time, unlimited) so you can set it to 1 GB per month at home or 500 MB one time on vacation. You can also see the Usage details for Cellular and WiFi so you know which apps use the most data
Even in regular Windows 10 this is the case and you can even set a Wifi-connection as a metered connection (if you have very small datacaps)
Edited 2015-12-14 15:34 UTC