Big news from the Amiga world this weekend. That stubborn bunch are holding AmiWest 2011 this weekend, and it’s been one heck of an eventful little, uh, event. Not only will the AmigaOne X1000 start shipping by year’s end, Hyperion also announced something many in the Amiga world have been waiting for for a long time: an Amiga laptop. Update: Steven Solie, AmigaOS’ team lead, also held a presentation about the past, present, and future of AmigaOS. The team is working on some pretty interesting stuff – protected address space, multicore support, USB3, new printing subsystem, and much more.
X1000
It’s been a long and sock-filled journey, but the exciting and unique AmigaOne X1000 is nearing completion. AmiKit, one of the main distributors of Amiga computers and related materials, is already taking pre-orders, with the computers expecting to ship around Christmas. Thanks to its use of the rare P.A. Semi PowerPC processor, the X1000 is the only computer to ship with an Apple processor that isn’t a Mac or iOS device.
The full list of specifications:
- Dual-core 1.8GHz PowerISA v2.04+ CPU.
- “Xena” 500MHz XMOS XS1-L1 128 SDS.
- ATI Radeon R700 graphics card.
- 2GB RAM.
- 500GB Hard drive.
- 22x DVD combo drive.
- Customised case, keyboard and mouse.
- 7.1 channel HD audio.
- Ports and connectors:
- 4x DDR2 RAM slots.
- 10x USB 2.0.
- 1x Gigabit Ethernet.
- 2x PCIe x16 slots (1×16 or 2×8).
- 2x PCIe x1 slots.
- 1x Xorro slot.
- 2x PCI legacy slots.
- 2x RS232.
- 4x SATA 2 connectors.
- 1x IDE connector.
- JTAG connector.
- 1x Compact Flash.
Before we get to the price, bear in mind that this computer was not designed to be competitive on price or even features. Basically, the X1000 was designed to be the best and fastest Amiga computer possible, with little regarded for keeping costs down. This machine is not for average, every-day users – this is for the Amiga connoisseur. And being a connoisseur comes at a price. A hefty price.
“The ‘First Contact’ system includes the official AmigaOne X1000 ‘Boing Ball’ case in either black or white and includes the Nemo rev 2.1 motherboard complete with 1GB of DDR2 RAM, a Radeon HD4650 graphics card, 500GB HDD, DVR R/W optical drive, Audio & Ethernet cards. Prices start from £1699 (excluding AmigaOS4 license, shipping, handling and sales tax),” the AmigaKit press release states, “Optional extras include the ‘Boing Ball’ keyboard & mouse, Ram, HDD & Optical drive upgrade options plus Debian Squeeze pre-installed in a dual booting configuration with AmigaOS4.”
That’s quite the price right there, especially since this listed price doesn’t include the AmigaOS4 license just yet. Then again, as said, you can’t expect a system with such exotic hardware to be cheap, and I doubt those that have expressed interest in this machine will care too much about the price tag – much in the same way that Bethesda could ask €150 for Skyrim and I’d still buy it without a shred of doubt.
Amiga netbook
Good news, then, that something else lies on the horizon, something Amiga fans have been asking and hoping for for a long time now. Yes, At AmiWest, Hyperion, the company that develops AmigaOS, has announced a PowerPC netbook which is already running AmigaOS4. Sticker shock won’t be an issue here – the netbook will cost between $300 and $500 (which includes AmigaOS4), which would make this the perfect entry-level Amiga machine. If they manage to hit the $300 price point, I’m pretty sure they’d be able to push quite a few of these (relative to the more expensive X1000 and various sam440-based Amigas).
So, what can we expect from this machine? Well, it’s ‘sourced in a special configuration from an OEM’. Current prototypes have an integrated graphics chip, 512 MB of RAM, a few gigabytes of storage, the usual array of USB/audio/ethernet ports, and a wireless chip. AmigaOS4 is already running on it, but in an early state. It is expected to be released somewhere in mid-2012.
This is very exciting news. If you has asked me only a few years ago if any alternative operating system with special hardware requirements could survive, you’d get a clear and duh-like ‘no’ – and yet, here we are, with the X1000 right around the corner, the AmigaOne 500 by Acube, and now an Amiga netbook on the horizon.
Exciting times indeed. I’m happy there are real Amigans working on real Amigas, instead of people just slapping a logo on an Atom box and charging €1200 for the privilege to run Ubuntu on an outdated machine. Can you imagine people doing the latter? My, that would be just silly!
Excellent article, excellent news, we couldn’t ask for more this year at AmiWest.
New Amiga Desktop
New Amiga Laptop
New Amiga Website (http://www.amigaos.net)
And yet more news to come this evening.
I am 100% behind the NetBook Amiga, when can I buy one?
If you wanna join the NetBook debate head over to:
http://amigaworld.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=6117
With Timberwolf and NetBook Amiga this will rock!
http://www.amigabounty.net/attachments/project/44/t3.png
Edited 2011-10-23 17:12 UTC
The website looks awesome. Got even me, who had absolutely no intention of touching any expensive Amiga hardware, excited.
The tenacity of the remaining Amiga community doesn’t cease to amaze me, especially they have apparently finally managed to deliver something noticeable.
Or you could had got it like ~10 years ago with MorphOS, when it was slightly more relevant.
indeed i’d really like to have a multiOS capability like AmigaOS+Linux (maybe CRUX PPC).
Yet it comes with old cheap hardware? .. maybe i missed the expensive parts on that list..
yeah, the hardware part seems to cost well under $500
You guys have no idea about hadware design, do you?
No other machine like this exists. The entire motherboard is custom-built and custom-designed; you shouldn’t just look at the component cost, but also the cost of design and development. This motherboard was built *from scratch*.
Remarkable how something so elemental requires explaining these days. iPhone generation humbug.
with all due respect, Thom, I don’t think you can possibly lecture me on hardware design.
> No other machine like this exists.
by that reasoning every new device should cost 2 grand?
> This motherboard was built *from scratch*.
I don’t think you have any idea what you’re talking about. The motherboard seems to use stock components and standard manufacturing process. Here’s the picture:
http://www.solie.ca/files/dscn0014.jpg
Can you point which components here are “custom” or otherwise justify the price?
> but also the cost of design and development
that’s what I’ve said — hardware cost is a small part here, most of the price is to compensate for development effort. now whether you think it’s fair is a separate thing. I think they could use better parts if they were targeting high-end market.
Where else can I buy a motherboard that supports a dual core PA-Semi Power PC chip and a XMOS ?
Please, let me know, that I may go and purchase it.
what are you going to do with it? you can’t buy PASemi CPU unless you’re a pre-existing customer. and if you were you could design the board yourself.
Well, that is another question entirely. I’m not sure what I would do with a Unicorn either. Or A billion pounds of Iron. Or my coffee tomorrow morning. But I really would like all of the above.
Now its my turn to ask a completely question that deflects from the current conversation in a way to cover up a previous line of discussion that veers around one I’d rather not continue.
Do you have any experience programming FGPA’s? Is there a good dev kit you’d recommend?
Xilinx Virtex-6 ML605.
Your ignorance of basic economics is showing. There are two cost components to mass-produced products: a fixed cost for design, validation, tooling, etc. and a per-unit cost based on the cost of the components and the time needed to assemble them. (Yes, engineers need to eat too.) The more units you sell, the more you can amortize that fixed cost.
The per-unit cost of the components also decreases as volume increases due to transactional costs, assurance of demand to the supplier, etc. It’s wouldn’t be at all surprising if the cost of the non-CPU components for a short run (under 10000 quantity) of these motherboards is 5x what it would cost a major manufacturer in high volume.
As far as the custom components in that picture, I see a very large red one… not to mention the PA Semi CPU which was not produced in high quantities.
Edited 2011-10-24 00:57 UTC
It’s more like your inability to read more than 5 words into the comment. I’m commenting on the parts cost, which is what you called “per-unit cost”. Given that the parts are not very new nor earth-shuttering this can be used as a rough estimate of “what you’re getting” (design and development costs are much harder to compare across different companies and products).
As for per-unit cost decreasing with volume, this is certainly true, but much less so with circuitry than with silicon (that is, smaller batch size will give you competitive prices), which is why most devices are built with custom boards from mass produced chips. So just having “big red thing” is not enough to make it expensive to produce, if you’re thinking at least 1000s units. And both PA6T and XCore are cheap. To quote http://a-eon.com/news.html: “The PA6T-1682M is a high performance, low cost, cool running dual-core”. XCore is generally available (e.g. http://search.digikey.com/us/en/products/XS1-L01A-TQ128-C5/880-1019…).
So, as I’ve already said, the price is to cover years of development with a small projected number of sold units. Which doesn’t seem like a good value to me, but whatever makes you guys happy. I presume yourself and Thom have already pre-ordered?
http://acp.atari.org/
http://acp.atari.org/images/FireBee1nr5.jpg
Thom, out of curiosity as a communications/journalism major; What experience with Hardware design do you have, exactly?
Enough to know that, for instance, the Xmos chip is connected to the cpu directly – not through a bus – and that this had to be designed specifically for this motherboard, and that this obviously is going to have a direct effect on the cost.
You?
Actually the XMOS chip is partially connected to the CPU’s local bus, so technically it uses a “bus.” In any case, when it comes to board layout level, “bus” does not mean what you think it means. Point-to-point switching fabrics, still have to use physical buses of signals/traces at the physical level (even if they only involve 2 devices).
Thus my point that large amounts of people writing about technology, nowadays, tend to have little technical knowledge themselves. Or a very superficial understanding of the subject matter at best. So I find it hilarious when you lecture others on the realities of an industry with which you have no direct involvement.
Cheers.
PS. Actually I’m a computer architect, working for a rather large fabless outfit. Not that it matters, since arguments to authority are fallacies. Esp. on the internet.
The expensive part is where the hardware is manufactured in really small volumes because it’s a niche product. Not a terribly big deal, as the current and potential market for AmigaOS compatible hardware isn’t particularly price sensitive these days – people who want something cheap have either left or gone for AROS or MorphOS.
MorphOS also had this problem for most of its existence; certainly in times when it was almost making some noise. Meanwhile, AROS wasn’t usable (even now it barely is)
This phenomena, targeting niche & expensive routes of hardware, seemingly almost as if on some kind of principle, isn’t just “not a terribly big deal, as…” – it’s what hammered the nail in the coffin of Amiga, over the last ~1.5 decade.
A major reason for the following enjoyed by Amiga, in some places, is because it was a damn good deal.
I’m watching Trevor’s talk right now about the development of the X1000… This is really good stuff.
http://www.amiwest.net/broadcast/index.html
Strangely I was forwarded to some strange domainhoster. Had to use a different browser.
Anyways stream is at
http://stream.ziaspace.com:8000/;stream.nsv
I heard something about three more contracts with Verisys during the X1000 presentation today.
Seems this group is going to be around much longer than
has been predicted several times. Good for them.
I’m very happy for AmigaOS4 fans but the X1000 doesn’t looks like a very good value for something that has a CPU that’s EoL and priced like it was high end stuff.
If it came with a custom made casing and everything else to run OOTB then it would be nicer deal. It’s even more expensive than previously announced.
What does it matter if the CPU is EOL? It won’t magically disappear from your motherboard because it’s EOL, and it’s not like it’d have been upgradable even if it wasn’t EOL.
And you miss the point. What are the alternatives? The people who will be buying this want a machine that runs AmigaOS 4 that is faster than the existing hardware that runs AmigaOS 4. It’s not like an x86 box from the PC shop on the corner offers better value, because it’s not fit for their purpose (and most of them probably *do* already have an x86 box *too* to serve other purposes).
The CPU being EOL’d does matter a big deal. Parts availability, for example, it’s a crucial issue.
Buying a product which is not only obsolete, but based around terminated parts, even before it hits the shelves seems like a bizarre enterprise.
But that is part of what makes the Amiga… well, the Amiga I guess.
the AmigaOS netbook will more than probably be a THTF Limebook. It is 5121 based, i.e. e 400MHz e300 chip. Those netbooks were going for 1599 RMB (about 230USD) two years ago.
Some years ago Genesi was evaluating that chip. Initially Genesi and THTF were going to do teh LimpePC project together, but later they went different routes. nevertheless there’s quite some “Efika” in the LimePCs. Funny this now returns to OS4.
Apple owns the company who supply the PWRficient PA6T-1682M chip..P.A Semi(an end of life basis).
I wonder what other alternatives chips there is on the long run.
PS..Now that we know the real chip supplier is we know why it’s so dayum expensive.
There’s a bunch of alternative CPU’s from Freescale and others. Any CPU upgrade will requires changes to the motherboard in any case, so it doesn’t matter much that it’s EOL – there’s no way the X1000 will sell enough, even if tremendously successful by current Amiga standards, to take more than a tiny little nibble out of the aftermarket supply of these CPU’s.
There’s no mention of a PPC laptop chipset on limepc’s own website – the idea that they’d completely hide that while using it as the core of a new Amiga is implausible.
You should check in the right places before you state such things as fact, sir.
http://www.limefree.org/
http://www.limepc.com/z9.shtml states that it runs PPC Android. This is a big-name OS. AmigaOS is more of a hobby OS at this point so of course they’re not going to advertise it.
In the 80’s Amiga was exceptional, especially because of its graphics/sound capabilities, when comparing to PC-clones. But this one has – for example – just “ATI Radeon R700 graphics card”, therefore nothing that exciting.
Is there anything – but the “legend” – that can encourage the customer to spend that money?
Lurking around their websites, looks to me like they are a group of computer enthusiasts that like more then just being users/gamers.
They seem to dig right into their common equipment and have fun doing so.
Having the very latest and greatest, new today-obsolete tomorrow hardware doesn’t seem to fit in with what they do. Computing.
The users/gamers in their community also seem to be more computer savvy then their contemporaries on other systems.
Many still have, and use, Amigas they bought 20+ years ago, and,, there are a few companies still making new equipment/upgrades for those older computers.
It’s fun to them, and that’s just cool.
There’s a whole lot of much cheaper equipment, which you can “dig right into”. The question is: why should one “dig” into something that expensive, which doesn’t seem to offer (am I wrong?) anything that much different, than the other equipment – available at far lower price – worthy of “digging”?
I was pondering, why one would have for his/her “computing” exactly this pricey hardware.
Well, you’re not crazy, they are.
I’m sure if you go to their house and tell them they are crazy they will simply shrug and reply with something like
‘OK. So whats you’re point?’
Seems like they’re doing what they want to do, on the platform they want to do it on.
You might as well argue politics with a Duck. When you finish the Duck will just go back to doing Duck stuff anyway, even if it agrees with you.
Nothing, from what I can tell.
What I wish for Amiga is hardware and software that’s based on parallelism for performance. For example, a board with 256 CPU cores and very low latency memory, and an O/S and core APIs to make parallelism / concurrency a breeze.
Imagine the Juggler demo done in real time at 60 FPS! many jaws will drop!
and an O/S and core APIs to make parallelism / concurrency a breeze.
Amiga today is about “old” stuff. Being modern means “throw old stuff out” and start from scratch with the realities of 2020 tech, at least, to stay close to competition.
Or, start from scratch, and emulate the old stuff using existing software.
At this price only the most diehard of the remaining Amiga faithful will go for this. Even so, I’ve always got the impression that the remaining Amiga community consisted of a few brokedick Europeans, so that makes the ticket on this one even more baffling.
I’ve wanted a modern Amiga system for years, and could kind of kick myself for not getting a Pegasos when they were around. But this…no, no thanks. Not for the cost of a new entry level Mac Pro. Not for hardware that has 2004 specs. No thanks. RIP Amiga, I barely knew you. Long live NEXTSTEP!
You missed half of the news! The psuedo high-end X1000 is too high but the netbook they are looking at coming out with is predicted right in the $300-500 range.
Slapping together a bunch of outdated hardware and installing AmigaOS on top of it all is certainly not what Amiga enthusiasts are after. This monstrosity is a gimmick and undeserving of the name.
I almost want to go pull out my remaining A500 and A1200 from storage, just to acknowledge the dead and pay them my respects.
Too little, too late, too expensive, and totally missed the target regardless. No thanks.
Will it run Duke Nukem forever? If it does, then I may consider buying one.
Of course! It also comes with a free copy of Starcraft: Ghost & the hardware is guaranteed-compatible with the 1.0 release of GNU/Hurd.
Amiga 500 was the second computer i possesed. Aside from games there were a lot of productivity involved (AmigaTracker and so on).
What real uses do these Systems have nowadays aside from being labeled “Amiga”?
Is there are market aside from those enthusiasts?
Im already running AmigaOS 4.1 update 3 on my Sam440 Flex 733 mhz.
And yes I want faster hardwares for games and Heavy emulators and such of things……….
I buy X1000 direct..
Not much money for a
Super Amiga that run the best Amiga operating system whats ever developed……
I never tuch a PC with win or mac since I got my Sam440 for example
I’m wondering what work you’re doing on your computer.
Edited 2011-10-25 12:42 UTC
Between the speaker laughing at his own (sad) jokes every 30 seconds, him reading off of printed out notes, the auto-white-balancing camera that kept him in shadow for the entire presentation, and the video screen that showed nothing but a list of names it was really hard to pull the message out of the noise.
The Amiga was/is a multimedia powerhouse and a guy in charge of developing the OS can’t use a slide presentation running on the computer? What was the point of having the projector on if it wasn’t going to be used for anything. It was all very distracting.
I am very heartened by the many positive comments on here for a change. Its nice to see some people actually having an open mind. The Amiga Netbook sounds like it may entice a few people to try out an Amiga for either the first time or for the first time in a long while. Thank you, the Amiga OS developers and the community at large appreciate it.
As to those who have nothing better to say about the Amiga community and the computer itself, please bear this in mind…..
The Amiga community has been around for a long time, it may be small, but just like the computer it has absolutely no intention of slipping away quietly.
So rant all you like about your percieved short comings of the Amiga platform, because in truth it really doesn’t matter one bit. The Amiga will continue whether you like it or not and honestly, it doesn’t matter what you think or say.
Mikey C
Great news for the Amiga platform. X1000 soon to be released and a future cheap/mobile entry point to running Amiga OS 4.
I actually enjoyed the presentation from Steven Solie. He seems like a nice guy and very committed to his role. More frequent updates and transparency on what is being developed can only be a good thing.
As for cost the Amiga is a niche platform and the X1000 is a custom specification, low volume system. It was obvious the machine would be expensive to produce. There’s no point comparing to Mac/Windows/Linux only hardware as they’re not able to run Amiga OS 4 which is surely the whole point if you’re even considering an X1000 – unless you’re a PPC Linux geek
If you want to run Amiga OS 4 you either need a heavily upgraded classic set-up, buy an X500, place a pre-order for the X1000, buy a second hand compatible system (Pegasus II, AmigaOne etc) OR wait for the cheap mobile option of the netbook. There’s plenty of options there for all price points which is a great position to be in. So if you want Amiga OS 4 take your pick
…the Natami project might be just up your street (when/if it happens).
http://www.natami.net/hardware.htm
They’re using an FPGA to recreate the original Amiga hardware (Motorola 680×0, OS 3.x, AGA etc.) and improve upon it to give better clock speeds, features and allow you to plug in modern peripherals directly without needing things like a scan doubler.
I’ve been watching this project for a while and think this should turn out to what I’d consider to be a modern Amiga experience.
If it’s successful enough, who knows, maybe they can take it to the next level, implement in silicon and give it some really impressive performance.
I agree about the NatAmi. If I hadn’t already posted I’d have modded your post up.
The only clincher is that in order to get the most out of the NatAmi is that there are going to have to be custom drivers written for the OS. Since all of the true-color graphics APIs have been bought out by Hyperion-Entertainment (the makers of AmigaOS 4) and the MorphOS team, it looks like the NatAmi may have to run AROS 68k to get the most of the hardware.
I know your only trying to advertise the Natami, but seriously… the Natami debate doesn’t really belong here. Natami is all about ‘the retro’ and games, whereas AmigaOS development is all about the future and the future doesn’t involve playing game x,y or z under 2megs of RAM.
Ummm…where did you get that the Natami is only about retro gaming and using less than 2MB RAM? I think you have it confused with the FPGAArcade/Replay Board found here: http://fpgaarcade.com/
Get your facts straight on the Natami here:
http://www.natami.net/
It’s not really a debate, especially if you can’t be bothered to click on the link which would have told you the current Natami has 512MB of DDR2 RAM.
Everyone is entitled to buy whatever wacky Amiga hardware they want for their own experience. It’s not like anyone is proposing a system which sets itself apart like the original Amigas did back in the day.
Let’s not kid ourselves, these are to be toys for nostalgic geeks. No one could seriously get away with just using an Amiga for all their needs (unless you’re a masochist).
However, massive improvements can still be made by groups of enthusiasts and now technology like FPGAs make possible what was previously just pipe dreams for such a shrinking niche market.
Edited 2011-10-27 03:36 UTC
I think that proper utilization of FPGAs is exactly what could make an Amiga platform innovative again. Hardware acceleration made it what it was in the 80s and now one of the most interesting innovations is using FPGAs to accelerate more software on the fly. Observe the LLVM project making FPGAs a back-end. Seems to me a CPU+GPU+FPGA with that kind of flexibility could work a lot of wizardry, scaling up to whatever number of cores of whatever type for the jobs you’ve got.
I have fond memories of the Classic and AGA Amigas, so I’m curious to see how this new one works out. The Netbook’s entry price seems good, but the main system will probably leave a few people scratching their heads unless the system can do something really amazing.
The wikipedia page on the X1000 indicates that the custom “Xena” processor can be programmed through a series of ‘C’ extensions. Sounds like fun! Nothing like banging the hardware I tell ya 😉
The Xena chip is just a dual-core multithreaded XCore embedded controller. It will be able to do most of the things that a hardware-interrupt would do without the pipeline stalling. It may also be used by the audio mixer or something like that for ultimately the same purpose. It is a good idea but not worth what AEon is asking for it.
It seems like the envisioned usages make it, mostly, a stream (co)processor of sorts?
In such case… this “Amiga” has also another one – and however old R700 already is, it’s almost certainly significantly faster, on average, at stream processing tasks.