While most of us here on the OSNews team are proponents of HTML5, we’re all fully aware that Flash serves an important role on the web today, and will most likely continue to do so for the foreseeable future. Flash has a rather spotty record when it comes to performance, and so far, hasn’t been able to run well on mobile devices. It seems this is about to change, as an Adobe evangelist has showed off Flash 10.1 on Android 2.2 (Froyo) running on the Nexus One. And eerlijk is eerlijk, it looks pretty darn impressive, especially considering how far they’ve come.
Google has really warmed up to Adobe, and together with an ever growing growing pushback caused by Flash’ sorry performance and lack of security, this is pushing Adobe to really step up their game and finally bring Flash into the 21st century. Flash 10.1 on Windows is already a huge step forward, and on Mac OS X, too, Adobe is making progress. Linux still lags behind a bit, mostly due to the lack of hardware acceleration.
On the mobile side of things, Flash has always been pretty much unusable. You had light versions of the Flash player, but I doubt anyone really used those to any serious degree. With the mobile web becoming ever more prevalent, Adobe really had to get working, and it seems like this work is finally paying off.
There is some stutter here and there, but for a beta release, this isn’t bad – especially when you consider where these guys are coming from. I do worry about the battery life issue, though; good performance is all well and minxy, but from this video we can’t make out anything about how Flash 10.1 impacts battery life (the Nexus One is plugged in).
The release of Flash 10.1 for Android is tied to the release of Android 2.2 “Froyo”, which Google is expected to unveil at this year’s Gogle I/O conference later this month.
Not too shabby a demo, could be useful. I am not that worried about battery life, in most cases this type of animations and video will tax the handset close to max either way, so it will be a drain, but not really worse than if it was done through different methods.
Will have to try it out myself before I can really judge, but personally I consider this to be good for competition. The HTML5 stuff wouldn’t have happened without Flash showing the way, and Flash would not have gotten its recent improvements (open spec, much better hardware acceleration in 10.1, new mobile player) without HTML5 chasing after it. I think we have room for both for a long time yet.
http://www.mikechambers.com/blog/2010/05/10/top-flash-misperception…
if we are talking about flash in the sense of video playback, i.e. youtube style, then flash will easily put my browser at about 110% (it’s dual core), HTML5 on youtube will put my browser at about 40%.
This is a snow leopard machine, 2GB RAM 1.83GHZ Core Duo Processor 10.6.3 and Safari.
Wait until you have hardware acceleration. Flash 10.1 on Windows drops to like 10-15%.
Not sure what you guys are watching but I only get to 5-7%.. i5 quad, 4gb ram, win7 home prem, firefox.
Notice the number of ‘unoptimized’ videos in that demo? One would have to guess that means those videos will require more battery power than those encoded with H.264.
I know it’s pointless, but I still checked it on an old pentium [email protected] laptop I still have laying around, with multiple youtube videos, cpu was between 25-40% (debian testing, firefox 3.6.4, flash 10,0,32,18). I knew good old ibm thinkpads haven’t lost their touch
This just in: Over-engineered eye-candy websites use a lot of CPU. Full story at 10.
Abusing HTML/CSS/JS is just as bad as abusing Flash. The main difference is that a) it’s _really_ easy to do with Flash, and difficult to do with HTML and b) anybody can help improve Gecko/Webkit to fix performance, but only Adobe can fix Flash.
I made this quote a while ago, and I’m going to stick to it: http://camendesign.com/quote/flash-push
It’s good that Flash is improving, but it is in no way beneficial to the long term survival of the web. No web technology should depend on one company’s profit margins and what platforms they decide to support or not.
Edited 2010-05-11 11:19 UTC
Haha, if Flash is coming to Android, I hope somebody develops a flashblock plugin too. I don’t want this shit on my desktop, and damn sure don’t want it on my phone.
Hey Thom, how do you know it’s any better on security? I’ll let you install it so if somebody’s phone gets rooted because of a Flash vulnerability, it won’t be mine
Edited 2010-05-11 11:38 UTC
Heh yeah, I wanted to put that in the article but forgot.
Flashblock +23462346.
Correction: Flash is beneficial in the sense that it prioritises what features browsers are going to have to add in order to ultimately replace Flash. HTML still requires _massive_ improvement to Video/Audio as well as the addition of webcam/microphone support &c.
There is this assumption that javascript + canvas or svg is more efficient then flash, and that is totally wrong. If you want to do animations on the web, flash still wipes the floor with everything else that is out there.
I don’t know about the difficulty in abusing javascript. Its pretty dang easy. Just create an infinite ( or near infinite) loop. Been a while since I did that accidentally, but it used to kill IE, firefox, opera. If javascript is given its own separate thread than the browser gui, then it sort of goes away.
I mean developers who create a site with fancy effects (e.g. Disney), not trying to purposefully crash your browser in the fastest manner. You can write a for-loop in Flash too., but it’s inherently easier to pile on the special effects with Flash than it is with HTML/CSS
Yet. Adobe are supposed to be working on HTML5 development tools
Oh my god… Coming from Adobe, this means bloated html code which you can’t easily block. NOOOOOOOOOO !!!!!
(Actually, looking at the article’s demo, it’s a bit unfair since they seem to be working on performance now that newer technologies predate flash, but who cares ^^ For years I’ve been enduring horrible performance from Adobe software, it’s not some random laggy demo of a product which should have been released for 6 months which is going to appease my anger against their devs ^^)
Yeah that was my other point. Its more difficult to screw up anything that doesn’t have an easy way to create it. That will change if Adobe creates an html 5 animator. Although, I thought they already had one at some point. Adobe was promising great things with svg … until they bought Macromedia.
Jeff Croft on Adobe’s Android Flash Demo at FlashCamp Seattle
http://jeffcroft.com/blog/2010/may/08/android-flash-demo-flashcamp-…
As I have said before Steve Job’s is praying that the other phone makers will put Flash on their phones.
So, we have a demo of beta software that broke down, and a demo of that same beta software that worked just fine.
The outrage!
You mock Steve Jobs for his comments on Flash, then agree with him on Flash’s foibles, make up your mind, you are beginning to look a bit silly.
I agree with Jobs that up until now, the released versions of Flash have been abysmal in both performance as well as security.
However, contrary to many other people, I’m capable of changing my convictions if I see that a product is improving. I’ve tested Flash 10.1 beta/RC releases on both Windows and Linux, and they are MILES better, performance-wise, than previous releases.
There is nothing “silly” about being honest about that. Sure, I could go down the dishonest route, and simply not report on Flash’ improvements, but for that kind of reporting, you better go to MacDailyNews.
Yes but given that you rail against H264 don’t you think that Flash as a whole is a much bigger problem?
I mean the codec debate is mainly about playing video. Flash makes the whole web experience proprietary, locked to one vendor, and essentially restricted to platforms that vendor chooses to support.
That’s bad right, real bad.
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But it’s not a standard, nor even a de-facto one. There’s nothing that forces anybody, anywhere to develop using Flash. However, in the case of the iPhone OS that doesn’t have Flash, the only way to play video in the browser is with MPEG4.
Also Flash doesn’t adversely effect other development tools; where as the goal with H.264 is to threaten other codecs with FUD to stymie competition.
As much as I dislike Flash, it is just one development tool out of many and remains optional.
Um, I read the article and Thom quite clearly states that Flash had problems *IN THE PAST* but now things have improved. You know, how about assessing something based on the present rather than what happened 10 years ago.
More important Steve Jobs has no right to dictate what a person can and can’t load onto their iPhone; I find it funny that so many here whine about how terrible it is but has it stopped them from going out and purchasing an iPhone, iPad or iPod Touch? If a person wants to load on Flash than it is there right – the moment that the device leaves the store, the customer owns it. If owning it involves the desire to install a battery sucking, CPU hogging, bandwidth hogging, browser crashing plugin, then so be it.
And then scream like a banshee at the DEVICE creator because their battery melts after 10 minutes or the device gets rooted and someone buys 10k worth of goodies using their credit card details that were stored on the thing.
Joe and Joanne Lunchbucket will NEVER blame the software for these things, it will ALWAYS be the hardware, and therefore the company that makes the hardware. Anyone with significant experience in computer support knows this, it’s always “this stupid computer”, never “this stupid program”. Apple achieve their customer satisfaction levels by creating environments that, for their target audience, just work. And yes, sometimes that makes them restrictive in areas, but that’s their market. Expecting them to change their successful model to please the minority who either don’t or won’t use their products anyway is just foolish.
So… Basic freedoms and age-old conventions (i.e., the device I buy is MINE, and if I want to shove it up my behind, I should be able to) should just be thrown out because Apple could possibly get complaints?
Of course, this also has to do with the downright retarded American justice system, with its massive damage suits and the likes. Maybe you guys ought to fix that instead of giving companies this much power. Fight the cause, not the symptoms.
Edited 2010-05-11 13:31 UTC
If it was YOUR money and YOUR company you’d take the necessary steps to ensure that customer feedback is generally good.
And your argument reinforces what I said. If you decided to use it as an anal stimulator it would be outside of the specified functionality of the device so if you didn’t get the results you were expecting they can rightfully say it was never designed for that, just like they can when people use them jailbroken. Not allowing Flash on there is Apple’s way of saying “it wasn’t designed for this”, and there’s no denying it also helps their bottom line, but it’s their prerogative AND responsibility to their shareholders to ensure satisfaction levels amongst their TARGET MARKET remain high.
Edited 2010-05-11 23:41 UTC
And you don’t think that happens already? Please, if someone complains and uploads their ‘comment’ onto an internet forum or blog and I can assure you within a few seconds a legion of fanboys will rip them a new one. I don’t see any traction of complaints other than the same sort of complaints that people have about Mac and Windows computers that are shared around the metaphorical coffee table. End users are going to be idiots regardless – and all the restrictions only serve to frustrate those who have their act together.
As for me, you’re right – I won’t use their products and I’m happier for it. I have a MacBook and iMac (soon to be replaced by Windows 7 based computers) but I’ll never own an iPod Touch or an iPhone. I’ve voted with my wallet – but your assumption is based on perfect information. Lets face it, the average person is as thick as two short planks and wouldn’t know what he or she is missing unless they had the knowledge. Who gets screwed in the end are the clueless end user who is missing out on something they never knew about and developers who want to target the customer but can’t because of ridiculous restrictions. The end user might not be able to see the damage of such behaviour to themselves but there is damage. Yes, it does sound condescending but that is the reality – 90% of the population are mouth breathers with the top 10% hanging out here knowing what the alternatives are, with the 90% pretty much dependent on the top 10% to guide them in a particular direction. How many times have you been asked for advice regarding purchasing a computer? purchasing a phone? purchasing almost anything that you’ve become the ‘first port of call’ when dispensing advice like sort of guru.
Edited 2010-05-12 01:01 UTC
Under Apple’s EULA, by using the device, you agree that you don’t own the device and that your leasing it from Apple. And in the US, the EULA has the same legal standing as a signed contract…
No, it doesn’t. There have been court decisions on both sides of the fence, and nothing ground-breakingly precedent setting.
Contract law is contract law, and a given EULA has to meet the criteria within a given jurisdiction.
You do realise that this is all academic so far because Adobe have failed to released a version of Flash that can run on any phone let alone the iPhone?
Lets see – As a responsible company with a responsible attitude to your customers do you:
(a) promise to open your platform to some as yet unreleased piece of software (from a company with a history of releasing buggy inefficient version of the same software on the desktop) on a wing and prayer based on some vapourware demo that shows a buggy piece of crap
– or –
(b) say “no thanks we pass on that one”
And before people start with the “installing flash is my human right” type of pomposity remember that the bulk of iPhone users, when browsing the web and confronted with “you need to click here to install flash plugin to view this site” message, will probably click OK. Then they will wonder why their iPhone is running so slowly, and why it keeps crashing, then blame Apple for selling them a piece of crap.
Why do people in places like OSNews, who apparently are so devoted to openness, spend so much time defending a monopolistic and unnecessary piece of proprietary shabbiness like Flash?
Again, what is it with your fixation on the past? they’re developing Flash 10.1 for such devices today, companies are working through the ‘Open Screen Project’ – and as seen in the demonstration, they’re getting results. The only thing you seem to be hell bent on is ranting about what has happened in the past when your focus should on what is Adobe and partners doing now, and the delivery of it. All evidence shows that Apple was right to be sceptical of Flash based on what existed before 10.1, but the circumstances have changed; there is no Flash Light and Flash desktop, there is only ‘Flash’. Flash is being developed and yes it has taken along time because surprise, surprise, its very complex stuff! (something throwing more man power at won’t fix).
For the record I don’t support Flash or Silverlight; in a perfect world HTML5 would be completed by now, all the h264 patent holders would donate it to W3C for the good of humanity and so on. But we don’t live in that world, we live in this world – patents up the wazoo, companies following their own self interest for the benefit of their shareholders and end customers wanting solutions that allow quick turn around from idea into a website (Flash and Silverlight). Therefore, because I live in this real world, I have to deal with what is here – Silverlight and Flash, for better or worse.
Edited 2010-05-12 05:03 UTC
I am not fixated on the past I am fixated on the present. As of this moment there is no Flash on phones. It hasn’t been released. It has been demoed and some very recent high profile demos showed severe bugs and some video subsequently showed those bugs gone. Videos are not a reliable guide to unreleased products (remember Courier). Lets wait until its released and see what Flash mobile actually does.
In the meantime Apple is saying no to an unreleased and untested product from the same company that has produced extremely buggy and inefficient versions of software from the same software family.
Why should they change their position until the new wonder Flash mobile is released and tested in the real world?
More importantly why should they say yes to unreleased Flash as long as saying no does not negatively impinge on their competitive position in the market place and adversely affect sales?
SVG actually predates Flash. Flash happened because SVG had no authoring tool. HTML 5 is good but still no authoring tool.
Use Gnash, FTW. Why people keep using Flash is beyond me. Gnash does run Youtube and daily motion fine so why use Flash?
WTF man? You are dutch! Just use the metric system like the rest of the world. Miles are from the middle ages. Even those who are still stuck with miles (in the UK and former colonies) know it! If after 200 years you still can’t use meters, how can we expect people to use HTML 5?
Edited 2010-05-11 11:55 UTC
We use “miles” in fixed expressions, e.g., “mijlenver” which means “miles afar”.
Well, some things never move. I guess Miles, IE 6 and Flash will haunt humanity until the end of time.
Edited 2010-05-11 12:02 UTC
according to wikipedia flash predates svg by 4 years
can’t complain about idiom. Might as well try to change the Robert Frost poem to read “And kilometers to go before I sleep”
You know there is a metric mile, right? its 10km.
Dix mille.
i hope they also update the plugin for maemo/meego…v9 kind of sucks
They should, since maemo and android are both linux-based, and since Android probably uses the usual linux GUI toolkits (X11&Xv + GTK/QT…) too…
Incorrect, the only common ground Android has is the kernel. The entire userspace of it is nothing like your typical desktop linux OS whatsoever, as you can confirm by looking at the android source code.
Playing same content using html5’s h264 or theora with browser xx vs flash often end up into noticing that the HTML5 version uses a lot more CPU.
That’s just video playback, no extra content. (HTML5 video implementations are probably not accelerated. Heck some people always wondered why VLC, which they thought was the fastest player is not accelerated, and “regular shitty players” perform(ed) way better)
It depends on the browser and platform. All using Flash 10 in fullscreen mode with acceleration (or 10.1 in window mode with acceleration)
Flash on Linux and MacOSX certainly is not nearly as quick as the Windows version.
I’ve a panasonic R3, that’s a pentium m ULV 1.1ghz, running Windows XP SP3 and Flash 10.1, intel 850GM graphic chip. 6 years old. I play most youtube 720p’s flash animations without noticeable lag. I assume it goes from 20 to 30fps approx. That’s pretty good.
Now doing the same thing on Linux, same machine, i lose a good 5-8 fps (they also have gotten better, a year+ ago it was horrible on Flash 9)
I was doing flash on my Nokia tablet over 2 years ago. It was not great but more than passable – and I even hacked the camera to work (which I don’t think is doable in HTML5). And because the browser was firefox based I added flashblock and adblock.
H.264 enclosed in an HTML5 wrapper somehow takes any different amount of CPU than when h.264 in a Flash wrapper? This is just stupid. If video acceleration APIs are withheld, Adobe can’t make it faster, but I remember way back as to why Excel (3.0?) was faster than Lotus, and back then it was Microsoft super-secret undocumented turbo APIs.
If there are fast codec and video libraries available or installed for a platform, I would think that all would use them and there should be no difference in speed.
Also, I could actually block flash on most platforms I use. Including Android. It is open and extensible.
Go ahead and fix webkit – but remember that doesn’t mean it will get into any particular version of Safari (or Chrome – but you can fork Chrome).
Which is one of my big fears and complaints with Apple – they are also blocking finer grained security features and the rest in their mobile browsing. Will ID theives get Granny’s social security number? There’s nothing I can do to prevent it. Apple may make getting on the information superhighway easier, but some people will just get run-over.
Personally, I detest flash. I rarely unblock flash on any site. But that doesn’t mean I’m free to criticize it in any way. Should I trust the closed Adobe flash any more than the closed Apple stuff? I think not.
This simply does not make any sense at all.
1.) Any other playback software (VLC, Totem, …) uses only half the CPU power of Flash without any GPU acceleration.
2.) Linux has GPU hardware acceleration: Vector graphic procedures can easily accelerated using OpenGL. Video decoding an be accelerated using the freedesktop.org standard VA-API that works with all major GPU vendors: http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/vaapi
I never said Linux doesn’t have hardware acceleration. Flash doesn’t.
So? Flash still performs worse than other software that has no hardware acceleration either.
I think that there’s a problem with *embedding* video in browsers on linux, not with playing it in an accelerated way. See HTML5 videos (like on http://camendesign.com/ ) with firefox 3.6 on linux. Actually, it’s much more of a pain than youtube, even though being natively implemented by the browser…
See this from a flash for linux dev, too :
http://blogs.adobe.com/penguin.swf/2010/01/welcome_to_the_thicket.h…
http://blogs.adobe.com/penguin.swf/2010/01/solving_different_proble…
Edited 2010-05-11 17:24 UTC
No, not really. When using other plugins than Flash on Linux to play video files (embedded using the object tag), the very same videos that played with high CPU load on YouTube with Flash, play just fine using other methods. For example I now use the “Youtube without Flash Auto” script for GreaseMonkey in conjunction with GNOME-MPlayers’s Mozilla plugin: Way better performance than Flash.
Same with HTML5 video in Konqueror (same MP4 file as on YouTube).
Video decoding an be accelerated using the freedesktop.org standard VA-API that works with all major GPU vendors: