Ximian’s Nat Friedman will deliver the keynote at this week’s Real World Linux Conference, and in this interview, he discusses Novell’s commitment to the Linux desktop, barriers, misconceptions and the importance of success stories.
Friedman: Expectations Rising Over Linux Desktop
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Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
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>> The No. 1 misconception is that usability is a major barrier to adoption and that’s not true. It used to be. There was a study done recently with a group of 20 users who had never used a computer before. Ten were put at a Windows PC, 10 at a Linux PC and they were given a list of simple tasks like sending an e-mail, surfing to a Web page and the usability results were pretty much the same.
>>
Just what I thought.
” On Linux you need to learn at least one shell scripting language. This is still true nowadays.”
No you don’t. I’ve been using Linux for 6 years and I don’t know a shell scripting language.
Btw for “admin tasks” there are gui tools in most modern Linux distros. For adding users, checking logs, stopping or starting servers, setting up web, dns, file&print servers etc ALL have nice gui tools.
“Installing Gentoo takes 3 days, installing Windows takes an hour”
What a stupid comparison. Gentoo? Gentoo is a highly specialized niche linux distro for people who want total control over their OS. It does not in ANY way represent what modern Linux is about. Install Mandrake, Suse, etc and in a hour you will not only have a fully working system but ALSO a full Office Suite and about a billion other games, applications etc if you so choose.
Your post is FUD and you know little to nothing about Linux, admit it. People like you should have your posts deleted. Who needs to read such lies?
Picking Gentoo to compare against windows is not correct – its a source based system. Try comparing Windows/Lindows, from what i’ve read Lindows takes less than 20 minutes to install. One hour to get a basic Windows OS, how much longer to get something useful on it like a word processor etc? (thats not including the time you go online to download the updates and then deal with getting “msblast2 off of your system)
I’ve always wondered why people seem to judge linux by its install. He is making reference to users that have never used computers, or just basic desktop usage. I dont think those people will ever install Windows either. So the install of an OS is irrelivant to those users. And yes gentoo may take awhile to install, but a distro such as Ark takes about 20mins to install, and thats with a full office suite and other apps installed as well. Which is quite a bit faster than a windows install.
I’m I the only person that is a bit worried over the trust Nat and, in general, the Ximian grew have for Microsoft? Here he is discussing the future of the free desktop, yet here:
http://www.nat.org/2004/april/surrounded.jpg
He is pictured with Miguel de Icaza (also of Ximian) alongside Microsoft’s CTO David Vaskevitch. (taken from planet.gnome.org). He seems to be at remarkable ease around representitives of a company that regularly chew up competitors (like his new employer Novell) for breakfast. One thing histroy has taught the world: Never trust Microsoft. He may have not yet learned that.
On Linux you need to learn at least one shell scripting language. This is still true nowadays.
I agree 100%.
Linux is just NOT ready for the Desktop (general usage). You’re still stuck at the Prompt. And you’ll be seeing that prompt very often. Most people aren’t interested in going back to computing that was 10 years ago. GNOME/KDE have nice features and all, but to get there you will lose some sanity.
But the real problem is that they still don’t get, or don’t want to accept, this reality.
You are taking the worst case scenario by comparing a Gentoo Install to a Windows one. Have you ever done kickstart installs. Damn things take 15 minutes more or less depending on the software being installed.
Automating tasks is not too hard. I still do no know any scripting languages, but for the most part, you can learn in no time to how to setup a cron job if you need one.
whilst more could be automated, you could say the same about windows.
I dont like the cli.
i like to do things with gui. but why haven’t anyone portet suse’s yast over to debian or gento.. or rh. ?
and then it wos the “barriers”; yes, are there going to be rpm, deb, or??
why cant novell open a forum (NO a mailing list, windows people dont know mailings lists) where desktop users can tell what THEY well have, and what they can do dif.
there are one reason today to learn c/c++, and that is that you can write programs that you well have on yours desktop.
first gentoo is as said a bad distro to compare on installtime.
but thre days no way i did it in 6h but the active time was about 30min. started the install went to watch some movies and manged the rest of the install remote from my laptop. dont think i spend anymore time than 30min during the intire install from the laptop.
that was with xfree gnome-2.6 kile and some other useful stuff.
and you can do a gentoo install much faster if you do a binary install.
then gentoo isnt a point and click distrubution (yet)
and there is distrubutions where you dont need to do shellscripts for admin tasks. ofcourse that depends on wath you need to do with your sever scripting isnt all bad. i do know some ntadmins who do a bit of scripting to mange things on windows as well.
After the initial set-up of a linux system, it is in many ways easier to use for many users. I can setup a complete Slackware and Dropline GNOME system in about an hour. That will play all audio formats, DVDs, flash, Java, and have essentially every app a typical college student, for instance, will need. I’ve setup a laptop for two friends and a desktop for one. These are all noobs. They have never dropped to the CLI; I don’t think they know it exists. They have become more productive and started doing things with their computers that they didn’t imagine were possible when using Windows. They log-on to multiple accounts in Gaim, we have links to every computer in the house and a link to an FTP on each desktop for easy file sharing (using GNOME’s “Connect to server…”. Once these systems are setu p, people love them. Most people can’t setup a system by themselves, true, but that is also true of Windows. The desktop is good enough (even better than Windows in many ways) for a lot of people; we just need an infrastructure of companies and vendors getting these polished boxes out to consumers.
No one has ported YAST yet because it wasn’t under a completely free license that enabled people to do that.
Novell only recently (or is about) release YAST under the GPL, so now maybe people will port it.
And YAST is an integrated System Tool, it’ll come preinstalled with distros if anything.
He is pictured with Miguel de Icaza (also of Ximian) alongside Microsoft’s CTO David Vaskevitch. (taken from planet.gnome.org). He seems to be at remarkable ease around representitives of a company that regularly chew up competitors (like his new employer Novell) for breakfast. One thing histroy has taught the world: Never trust Microsoft. He may have not yet learned that.
From that blog entry:
The other day Nat and I met David Vaskevitch, Microsoft’s CTO. We went dancing.
Am I the only one that finds nothing scary about meeting someone from the competition and take a funny photo with him?
What should have they done, according to you? Crawl to a corner and cry in despair because an MS employee is near? Perhaps throw some knives at him to kill an enemy?
Geez…
P.S.: Also remember Novell was chewed by MS. It’s not like Novell is a monopoly nowadays, or tries to be (they now bet on free software).
Odd… I run Windows XP at home and use the command prompt quite often. Why should the use of a command prompt be considered “going back to computing that was 10 years ago”? It’s not… CLIs are useful and depending on the use, far easier and faster to use than a GUI.
If I had to chose between DOS and WinXP I would take WinXP. But I can still use CLIs when the need is there.
Besides, a GUI without a CLI is not a convincing selling point.
“It’s not… CLIs are useful and depending on the use, far easier and faster to use than a GUI.”
As a linux noob, this is the part that I never get. For the life of me I can’t see how the CLI is faster. Particularly in Linux where the file names are some of the longest I’ve ever seen. Just for example, untarring a .tar. You can right click in Gnome to untar it with the file roller or you can type out the command.
I´d say about 90% of the people I know and/or work with have never installed Windows. To be fair I know of a few that did use a recovery CD on their Dell/HP/Gateway machine, but this is an automatic restore of a partition image custom made for their machine, so I don´t count that as an install.
The rest usually call on a friend or family member to do the install. I know I do a lot of them for a lot of different people. I also did a three Linux installs (Red Hat, SuSe and Gentoo, that´s right two wouldn´t go for Gentoo, their mistake). The people I installed Linux for are quite happy, The Red Hat and Suse machine are still up and running although outdated. The Gentoo machine is my moms, I regularly run emerge world -D on it. I set them up with limited accounts so they have to really try to scr*w things up.
The windows users regularly call me with problems. They seem like spyware magnets and have all kind of virus problems. No limited user account for XP Home so they can easily destroy everything I set up, and they do! There are at least three among them that require no software that isn´t available for Linux. They can easily switch and make my life (and theirs) easier. The rest are gamers or use custom software not available on Linux (Nat has a very good point there, the problem is some of these things are hardly going to get a developer excited). Those who can switch don´t because they have this misconception that USING Linux/Gnome is difficult.
My mom is the proof that it isn´t. She had to learn to use windows at work and never got the hang of it. Gnome was easy though. It helps when you don´t have overcrowded menus and options phletora. Menu options like ‘Web browser’, ’email’ and ‘writer’ are hard to misunderstand. Too bad Rhytmbox doesn´t folow this and has ‘ Music player’ as a standard menu entry, so I changes this. Of course this is all posible on Windows, but it´s not like this when you get it standard like on Gnome.
So the point is Linux is ready for SOME desktops, and they´re not all corporate.
“The other day Nat and I met David Vaskevitch, Microsoft’s CTO. We went dancing.
Am I the only one that finds nothing scary about meeting someone from the competition and take a funny photo with him? ” said Rick Dekkard.
Nat is a leading supporter of the Mono Project. FACT.
The Mono Project relies on a great deal of Microsoft’s goodwill to survive. Although the ECMA CLI and C# standard allows for 3rd parties to replicate the technology, it allows Microsoft to, at any stage in the future, impose “reasonable and non-discrimatory” licensing terms (i.e. a fee). FACT
Miguel and Nat are actively supporting the inclusion of Mono into the GNOME project. FACT.
A Gnome built on Microsoft technology, would give them unprecedented control over its development. FACT.
Any high level executive from Microsoft does not deserve an ounce of respect from anyone. Just ask: Netscape, Be, Lotus, IBM, Novell, Sun, Apple, Borland, Lindows, Real, (soon to be) Google , [Insert list of smaller companies that went out of business before anyone could learn of their plight]. FACT
Nat, as shown in this picture, thinks that high level executives from Microsoft are worthy of respect, even though i’m confident they would stab himin the back if it resulted in increased market share. FACT.
I’m sorry. I have respect for Nat, but I can’t help but think he is nieve in his opinion of Microsoft.
here’s a solution: take the windows XP desktop and put it on a linux system. or clone it. Make a desktop that acts just like it. It’s obviously the best desktop (i love the feel) Just like how I love the feel of IE compared to mozilla, but mozilla is cooler and runs better. (OK, its just the easy customization and movement of the toolbars and buttons at the top )
“Particularly in Linux where the file names are some of the longest I’ve ever seen”
I guess you haven’t figured out how to use the tab key have you? I case you don’t know, you can type in the first part of the filename or command and then press tab, and the rest will be filled in for you….
Any high level executive from Microsoft does not deserve an ounce of respect from anyone. Just ask: Netscape, Be, Lotus, IBM, Novell, Sun, Apple, Borland, Lindows, Real, (soon to be) Google , [Insert list of smaller companies that went out of business before anyone could learn of their plight]. FACT
Are we supposed to take someone who doesn’t now fact from opinion serious? What are these people doing that managers at sun, real etc.. wouldn’t be doing if they had the market position Microsoft has. It’s a hard world and the shareholders expect results in line with the market position. Really those other companies are mostly fair because theyŕe not in a position to not be fair. The CEO/COO/CFO that blows an opportunity to make a lot of money because he wants to play fair gets canned at the next shareholders meeting.
Take this discussion on mono to some forum or topic concerned with mono. It’s getting old and has nothing to do with Linux usability on the desktop.
Damn I already spent more time on your post than it deserves, 🙁
The Mono Project relies on a great deal of Microsoft’s goodwill to survive. Although the ECMA CLI and C# standard allows for 3rd parties to replicate the technology, it allows Microsoft to, at any stage in the future, impose “reasonable and non-discrimatory” licensing terms (i.e. a fee). FACT
Same as could happen with Java, that isn’t on a better legal ground for free software projects. Still, noone seems to attack gcj or gnu classpath. Or even dotGNU, that has the blessing of Stallman, who avoids legal traps all the time. FACT.
Any high level executive from Microsoft does not deserve an ounce of respect from anyone. Just ask: Netscape, Be, Lotus, IBM, Novell, Sun, Apple, Borland, Lindows, Real, (soon to be) Google , [Insert list of smaller companies that went out of business before anyone could learn of their plight]. FACT
Heh, that would make them get more respect out of fear, if anything. Look at Sun’s recent deed with MS. FACT.
Nat, as shown in this picture, thinks that high level executives from Microsoft are worthy of respect, even though i’m confident they would stab himin the back if it resulted in increased market share. FACT.
Your idea of “respect” seems pretty weird from looking at that photo. FACT.
I’m sorry. I have respect for Nat, but I can’t help but think he is nieve in his opinion of Microsoft.
Only thing I got clear from your message is that you have no idea about Nat’s opinion of Microsoft. That, and that you hate Mono, that has nothing to do with your paranoid interpretation of that funny photo. FACT.
Adding FACT after every paragraph you write doesn’t make you look wiser. FACT.
Goodbye. FACT.
“Particularly in Linux where the file names are some of the longest I’ve ever seen”
Actually filenames of traditional Unix programs are usually short (ls, rm, mkdir, /usr, /etc, need I go on?), because of limitations on long since retired filesystems.
This is one of the things that takes some time to learn when learninh how to use a CLI on Unix. Ones youe learned them though you’re glad they’re short 😉
“take the windows XP desktop and put it on a linux system. or clone it.”
well,,, kde 3.2 looks cooler then xp.
but its more like front end (gui) for doing things, setting up and configurer programs and servers with gui.
like in windows for mounting samba shear points you right klick on “my computer” and “map nettverks disks” but in linux (many distros) you must edit /etc/fstab for doing this. and thats not good,
>On Linux you need to learn at least one shell scripting language. This is still true nowadays.
>I agree 100%.
I think you are an idiot.My wife uses Slackware for about 8 months now and she doesn’t have a clue that there’s something like shell scripting.Mind you,her old computer was an XP box and she saw my Dropline Gnome desktop and she wanted it.since that day she didn’t looked back. I’m proud , but not 100% happy , but this is only because I spend too much time explaining her how to do some stuffs-other way that she was used with XP. She doesn’t give a damn about security,she doesn’t give a damn about MSoffice not being always compatible with OO.She have A LOT of patience to re-format an old Word document in OO if she receives one.
PS: for the records, I use Linux for more than 4 years and I don’t have a clue how to script in bash. I always said I will take a look,but I have better things to do.
Linux is just NOT ready for the Desktop (general usage). You’re still stuck at the Prompt. And you’ll be seeing that prompt very often. Most people aren’t interested in going back to computing that was 10 years ago.
Uh, no. My girlfriend, the quintessential anti-geek, has no idea how to use the command prompt at all – yet she’s been using Linux (Mandrake + KDE) for over a year now.
You don’t have to use the prompt (usually known as a “shell” in Linux) if you don’t want to. Ever. Of course, if you know how to use the Bash shell (or other advanced shells), then it can help you do a lot more with your computer. Don’t think that because the CLI technology is less flashy that it’s therefore obsolete next to the GUI – in fact, the shell can be an incredibly powerful tool.
Why do you think Microsoft revamped its own command shell in Win2K3?
But if you don’t want to use it, then you don’t have to. That’s the beauty of Linux: choice.
“Actually filenames of traditional Unix programs are usually short (ls, rm, mkdir, /usr, /etc, need I go on?), because of limitations on long since retired filesystems.”
It wasn’t the filesystem that was the limitation. Even on the old original Unix filesystem, filenames could be fourteen characters long. It was the slow terminals, some of which used paper tape (!), that were the limitation. If you can only send about thirty characters a second, best to not use too many characters.
you cannot please all people with a pure-GUI or pure-CLI environment. I believe that CLI is still necessary because many people will still look for it. Notice how much Mac OS X became a more “respected” platform for the geeks because of the presence of the CLI (when previous versions had none!). I use WinXP too and I still feel the need to power up the Command Prompt from time to time. With Linux the need to do CLI work is more frequent. But that shouldn’t stop the Linux players from developing the GUI and making standard or interoperable tools.
The reason why CLI is more attractive for Linux than the GUI is because you need to relearn the GUI way of doing things across various distros. Running Red Hat/Fedora? There’s this way. Running Mandrake? Oh you need to do it this way. Running SuSE? There’s a different way. But with the CLI there’s more likely only one way of doing it. That’s why CLI for Linux is still very necessary.
For the life of me I can’t see how the CLI is faster.
Using the command line can be faster than the GUI, depending on what you want to do. Let’s say I want to move all files whose titles contain “marley” and ending in “mp3” from folder /home/moose/download to /home/moose/music, overwriting any files that may have the same name in the target directory. In the command shell I’d simply type the following command while in my home directory:
$ mv -f download/*marley*mp3 music
Typing this is much faster than to perform a similar operation with any file manager.
Another example: I have a mini-CLI on my bottom panel, enough to write in single commands. Whenever I want to run a program for which I know the name, it’s often faster to just type in the name in that mini-CLI and hit enter than actually go through the various menu to get to the correct entry.
I’m not even talking about scripting, which opens up a world of possibilities. The CLI is a powerful tool for those who feel they need it.
Particularly in Linux where the file names are some of the longest I’ve ever seen.
Ah, but you forgot about the magic of autocompletion…
Yeah.. I like the way i can resize the toolbars and move them around in windows. That’s about it i guess. 😉 My old relatives use a linux machine that i setup for her hehhehe. they like how they dont have adware or viruses. All they do is use it for mozilla or office, nothing else. But anyway, I’ll keep using windows for the desktop and linux + freebsd for servers. the price for windows 2003 is ricdicless.
The only thing holding linux back on the desktop is probably lack of games and drivers (and other programs). I’d love to see *BSD’s get abuncha drivers then put em in linux that’d be really nifty improve my fav. operating system yet help mainstream linux too
First, you could have come up with a much better example than that. F3, Click on music, type marley, drag results to the new folder. Lame.
And second, who cares how fast it is if it’s too hard for most people to use? Do you think there is some reason there is a demand for file managers like Nautilus and Kongueror?
well, windows XP command prompt has filename autocompletion too, when you hit the Tab key, just like Bash
i wonder who copied who?
Geez, come on. Who cares if the ximian guys are dancing with a MS Exec. Life is short might as well have fun when you can.
Worst case scenario MS pulls the plug on the Mono project and hoses parts of the GNOME project. But big deal that’s the sweet part about OSS if you don’t like something you can always start you’re own branch, doesn’t mean it will be successful or widely used.
I really wonder who cares. Windows had a “task bar” with a start button, system tray, and list of currently open applications in Windows 95. Linux has the same. I wonder who copied who? And probably someone had it before Microsoft and Linux, the point being- WHO FUCKING CARES. The point is who does it best, who makes it usable, who makes it available.
why do some of you keep on bashing the CLI?
accept it: some people love the CLI, some people don’t. it’s your choice.
personally, I find the CLI indispensable. maybe because i’ve been into PCs since the 80s.
there are tasks that are faster with the CLI, there are some tasks that are faster (and easier) with the GUI. use what’s appropriate, or what’s good for you. don’t be narrow-minded as to miss out the benefits of each approach.
I think you are a joyful person.My wife uses Slackware for about 8 months now and she doesn’t have a clue that there’s something like shell scripting.Mind you,her old computer was an XP box and she saw my Dropline Gnome desktop and she wanted it.since that day she didn’t looked back. I’m proud , but not 100% happy , but this is only because I spend too much time explaining her how to do some stuffs-other way that she was used with XP. She doesn’t give a damn about security,she doesn’t give a damn about MSoffice not being always compatible with OO.She have A LOT of patience to re-format an old Word document in OO if she receives one.
So you set it all up for her. And left her with a simplistic download program like dropline. But what happens when you’re not there and she wants something that’s not available on Dropline or can’t done with Dropline.
One of these days, I’ll do a story on getting Linux up and running and send it in. With all the details.
PS: for the records, I use Linux for more than 4 years and I don’t have a clue how to script in bash. I always said I will take a look,but I have better things to do.
Good for you!
unfortunately, if your company standardized on GNOME or Mono or what have you then suddenly the project goes kaput due to legal issues, you will have to spend major buck$$ to retrain your people and redo your apps.
i personally am a fan of Mono and I wish the team success. but I am also wary of what might happen should Micro$oft decide to stop playing nice.
Actually, I’m always laughing and smiling when seeing that picture. There has to be a line between competition and hatred. Love your enemy!
“Particularly in Linux where the file names are some of the longest I’ve ever seen”
Let’s see “cd ~” on Linux to go into your home directory while it’s “C:Documents and SettingsUsernameMy Documents” on Windows. “/etc/servicename.conf” on Linux to edit a global program settings while it’s “C:Documents and SettingsAll UsersApplication DataCompany NameProgram Namefile.ini” on Windows. Sure you have seen longer file and path names in Linux then Windows uses?
But it very much depends on what you try to do wether a gui or a command line is better. For (remote) administrating servers the command line is the fastest and easiest way to do things, especially when you know how to use some of the scripting and piping features of your shell. With GUIs you’re always restricted to the limited functions the tool providers thought of, while when you’ve masterd the combined power of shell scripting/piping/human readable text files you can pretty much create all functions you can think of with little effort.
unfortunately, if your company standardized on GNOME or Mono or what have you then suddenly the project goes kaput due to legal issues, you will have to spend major buck$$ to retrain your people and redo your apps.
Ok, so stop using bloody Gnome and Mono and move over to KDE/QT.
Commercial companies like Adobe, Macromedia, etc, can then use QT to make their GUIs. Sure, QT for proprietary development is not free, but neither is Visual Studio/Borland that same companies use today on Windows.
I think that the potential of Microsoft pulling out the rug from under them is what is keeping Novell from using Mono as much as some would like them to. They realize that it makes more business sense to go with Qt which would be more likely to be bought by Novell or IBM than be taken over by Microsoft just to kill which would be very suspect.
Linux, btw, isn’t ready for the independent user yet. Until Wine is good enough that people can install their favorite spyware of the internet and have it work seamelessly, then Linux isn’t ready for the average user.
You know what, though? I don’t care. It doesn’t bother me that I don’t really know anyone personally who is a Linux user. Linux fits my needs better than Windows or Mac and it doesn’t matter if all the idiots in the world use windows. So what? I’m glad they’re not clogging up my space.
Actually, just typing “cd” will go to your home directory. No need for the tilde.
Any high level executive from Microsoft does not deserve an ounce of respect from anyone.
That has got to be the most self-centered, rude, and downright hostile attitude I’ve ever seen presented on this board. Regardless of someone’s affiliation to company, clique, or country (etc…) they are still human beings with feelings. Go read some Shakespeare, et. al. and learn about the human condition before you make such hate filled blanket statements about your fellow man.
It’s close minded zealots like you, people who are willing to pass judgement on a person or an idea without having the maturity to learn that every story has two sides, people who can recite talking points but can’t seem to form their own educated & insightful opinions, that will end up doing more harm than good to FOSS. If you want a historical reference go read the Google archives of the Amiga newsgroups in the early ’90s. Hate blinded zealots always do more harm than good.
RE:Stephen Henry,
Firstly I found the picture of Nat, Miguel and David quite humourous. They were obviously having fun-no harm done.If Microsoft is ever going to aquiesce it’s position of dominant monopoly this will only happen once the “cold war” between propietary and FOSS stops fostering the identities which simply reify the dialectic which is at work. At some point down the line, a point which is tangibly closer almost every day, FOSS will have surpassed the mythical line of acceptance and FOSS software will start to be the software of choice by virtue of it’s merits. not by virtue of the identities-whether they be PR based, resultant of massive advertising campigns, or purely clique “l33t” based.
As more and more people experience choice in terms of the OS’s and software which they choose the more the questions begin to change-when there are two propietary apps and 10 FOSS apps for a given task, the question of it being propietary vs. FOSS is less important than the merits of the differences in the various apps.
The day will come where FOSS is common sense, the norm, the standard-some will still use propietary apps and OS’s-but those systems will need to provide open exchangability with FOSS OS’s and software due to popular demand- interoperability will be a selling point, a “feature”. It is really not a question of if- only when and many, many people already consider FOSS to be “normal”, “common sense” and this number is growing every day.
RE: The article
As regards the growing expectations about the “linux desktop” it is important to note that none of the large corporation currently embracing Linux are really “software companies”. Sun did not write StarOffice, Stardividision did. Sun did write Java, Solaris, NeWS etc. but these are not “applications” in the ordinary sense of the word. I have never seen a Sun application-nor have the vast majority of computer users. IBM is also not known for “applications”. Of course they have written AIX and much, much more. But who runs IBM applications ? and no I am not counting software development programs/environments. Novell arguably is more know for software-but then again their software was always targeted at system administrators-ie. network platform enabling software-again not “applications”.
Personally I do not expect to see any “wonders” as regards the “linux desktop” from these large corporations. What I do expect to see is growing pressure on hardware manufactures to start adequately supporting the Linux platform-perhaps the days of windrivers is comming to an end. I also expect to see standardization work being promoted by the big corporations-it is after all in their interest.
As the framework of Linux becomes more standardized, allowing better and more interoperability and as hardware is released with high quality drivers available for Linux, Linux will become an ever more appealing platform for application development. What Linux needs more now than anything is the tedious work of filling the gaps, tying and integrating things more cohesively.
Almost all of the big things are already in place-it is the details-small things, which taken as a whole, represent the last major hurdle for Linux. The prospects of Mozilla and GNOME actually working together, OpenOffice working tightly with Ximian/Novell and KDE/SuSE and Eclipse being targeted by Novell and Mozilla for rapid application environment open up fascinating possibilities.
Realistically we will probably see Novell and IBM releasing software which they use internally, iFolders is just a start. As such tools begin to become standard for the Linux platform-this platform will become very, very apealling. But let us be thankful that none of these big corporations so heavily supporting Linux are really “software companies”-Linux can work with Sun and IBM and Novell and HP and Microsoft(omg-I said it). FOSS, Linux and beyond, will become the infrastructure upon which the entire tech industry is dependendant upon.
Some are still in denial, some are slowly grasping this. FOSS is the only way the large corporations can compete with each other without succumbing to the still current fatalistic interpretation of success-meaning “I win if and only if you loose”.
First, you could have come up with a much better example than that. F3, Click on music, type marley, drag results to the new folder. Lame.
My example was at least twice as fast, if not more – especially if you have to confirm overwrites (or the first one, at least). In any case it’s an example, more complex operations that save even more time are possible.
And second, who cares how fast it is if it’s too hard for most people to use? Do you think there is some reason there is a demand for file managers like Nautilus and Kongueror?
Your knee-jerk response completely missed the point: I’ve got nothing against file managers – Konqueror is one of my favorite programs, period. But the fact is that, for someone who takes the time to learn it, the CLI can be a very powerful tool, and faster for some operations than the GUI.
Another example. Let’s say you want to install the latest build of Mozilla as well as other dependent programs. In Mandrake:
$ urpmi.update cooker && urpmi mozilla
Okay, how would you do it with the GUI? 🙂
So you set it all up for her. And left her with a simplistic download program like dropline. But what happens when you’re not there and she wants something that’s not available on Dropline or can’t done with Dropline.
Well, I can’t talk for the OP, but I installed a stock Mandrake Linux desktop for my gf and she’s never had any problems with it. Ok, so she doesn’t go and download programs from the Internet – but then again, she doesn’t need to, as all the programs she needed were already installed.
One of these days, I’ll do a story on getting Linux up and running and send it in. With all the details.
Here’s my story for that particular install:
1) Put CD into tray
2) Boot up computer
3) Click on a few widgets
4) Wait about 30 minutes until all packages are installed
5) Reboot
6) Create a user for me and my gf
7) Log in and use my brand new Linux PC
Of course, I did the smart thing and checked if the hardware was supported by Linux before buying it. But since the vast majority of hardware is, that wasn’t an issue.
Linux has come a long way, but it seems anti-Linux posters are still stuck in the 90’s…
“Hate blinded zealots always do more harm than good.”
Amen to that! If you dont like Windows, thats fine with me (I do use Linux from time to time, but I dont see it becomming my main desktop anytime soon), but atleast give an educated reason for not liking it. I would also add that seeing people put a “$” instead of the “s” in Microsoft just looks really, really immature… Seeing lame ass zealot replies on boards like this make me support Microsoft even more.
Don’t worry, you’ll see lame ass zealot replies coming from pro-Microsoft posters as well. It all balances out in the end.
ECMA 335 and 336 are most likely RAND + Royalty Free. That royalty free is the key here. I believe Novell’s lawyers are looking into this right now and if they can get clarification that those specs really are royalty free then all is good. Now I know that 335 and 336 do not cover all of microsoft’s apis, but what it doesn’t cover is mostly Winforms, ADO.NET, and ASP.NET. Even without those apis, Mono still has a very nice runtime, compilers, languages, and class libraries to use as a foundation.
I think it is ECMA 334 and 335.
http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-334.h…
http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-335.h…
Don’t worry, you’ll see lame ass zealot replies coming from pro-Microsoft posters as well. It all balances out in the end.
See, it’s not about being pro microsoft it’s about being pro diversity as in believing there is more in the world than Linux and GPL.
Most posters here that get cathegorized as MS Pro is simply against how Linux zealots act and what their position is (Global domination?).
Many of us dualboot between several well performing systems, me myself between BeOS, XP and FreeBSD… all very good operating systems with different specialties…
Well, then you are hurting your own freedom. We have to stick with GPL software, and submit patches if there are deficiencies. GPL is a process, a community. Submit patches, submit bugs, create documentation. You have to CREATE the software. You don’t want to just use proprietary software that does these things for you (and probably has its way with your wife when you’re out of town), you want Free Software (as in GPL) that will watch your kids while you’re at work (metaphorically of course).
The major hurdle linux is facing now is making it more network friendly. For this, they need much better integrated tools and a lot more preconfigured options. Someone really needs to make a “workstation” version of Linux for the corporation. This workstation version should include close integration to an LDAP server for authentication and authorization and close accounting of all the servers/workstations similar to Windows. Furtheremore, the tools included for managing these services should be network transparent similarly to Oracle, SQL Server Manager, Legato, Microsoft DNS management, etc. A simple click on the service and computer name should allow you to fully manage them. I know Novell and a slew of other companies have such tools but there should be free versions of these tools available that are the de facto standard.
See, it’s not about being pro microsoft it’s about being pro diversity as in believing there is more in the world than Linux and GPL.
I wasn’t referring specifically to you. There are Windows zealots frequently visiting these comments sections.
Now, as far as being pro-diversity, that’s the position of the majority of Linux posters on OSNews. Many dual boot, or have used a BSD, a Mac or BeOS. Furthermore, Linux users by and large aren’t interested in global domination, but simply a decent market share.
Really, the only one that truly stands against OS diversity is Microsoft. They want you to use Windows, and Windows alone. They will go to any length to disparage Linux and its users, since that is the only credible threat to their monopoly – and their supporters will gladly follow suit here.
‘You don’t have to use the prompt (usually known as a “shell” in Linux) if you don’t want to. Ever.’
That’s just not true. For example I was playing with Linux today and a full screen game crashed. How could I kill it without using the CLI tools in a virtual console?
Then there are all the things that can only be configured by studying man pages and editing config files.
Maybe if someone else installs and configures Linux and the user never adds anything else to the system they could avoid the CLI and config files. But for home users I think that’s pretty rare, most people who use Linux will have to deal with the complex man pages, CLI tools and text based configuration. All things that are much more complex and newbie hostile than the graphical tools available in Windows and Mac OS X.
“That’s just not true. For example I was playing with Linux today and a full screen game crashed. How could I kill it without using the CLI tools in a virtual console?”
Press Reset like Windows users do.
“Then there are all the things that can only be configured by studying man pages and editing config files.”
There are also tons of things that can only be configured by editing the registry.
That’s just not true. For example I was playing with Linux today and a full screen game crashed. How could I kill it without using the CLI tools in a virtual console?
Pressing Ctrl-Alt-Backspace restarts X. No command line involved.
Then there are all the things that can only be configured by studying man pages and editing config files.
Ordinary users wouldn’t need to do that – and even then there are GUI tools for nearly all admin tasks.
Maybe if someone else installs and configures Linux and the user never adds anything else to the system they could avoid the CLI and config files.
Installing modern Linux distros doesn’t require to use the command line at all, and all the configuration options a newbie would need to do can be done through GUI tools. The only exception is installing the NVIDIA commercial drivers, but this is quite easy with the new NVIDIA installer. Also, some commercial distros now ship with the proprietary NVIDIA drivers, IIRC.
But for home users I think that’s pretty rare, most people who use Linux will have to deal with the complex man pages, CLI tools and text based configuration.
They won’t have to if they don’t want to. Enough with the FUD already!
All things that are much more complex and newbie hostile than the graphical tools available in Windows and Mac OS X.
Graphical tools are available in all recent Linux distros. I recommend you check it out before criticizing it…
‘Press Reset like Windows users do.’
IME most Windows users know what ctrl+alt+delete does, or know how to alt+tab out of the app and exit it from the taskbar. The point was that this is something you can do using graphical tools in Windows while in Linux it requires the CLI tools.
‘There are also tons of things that can only be configured by editing the registry.’
I’ve used Windows for years and installed loads of beta test software and obscure hardware, yet I’ve never had to look inside the registry. OTOH when running Linux I spent more time messing with config files and reading man pages than I did actually using the system.
‘Pressing Ctrl-Alt-Backspace restarts X. No command line involved.’
So because a game crashes I should restart X and lose all the other graphical apps that I’m running?
I’ve usually got open web pages, e-mail messages, documents I’m working on, downloads running in the background, etc. Having to restart them all because of one misbehaving app would effectively make Linux less stable than Windows 95.
In Windows XP I’ve never had to restart any other apps just because one has crashed, I can simply kill it from the task manager.
‘Ordinary users wouldn’t need to do that’
Then I guess I’m not an ordinary user.
‘They won’t have to if they don’t want to. Enough with the FUD already!’
It’s not FUD, it’s my personal experience with Linux.
‘Graphical tools are available in all recent Linux distros. I recommend you check it out before criticizing it…’
At the moment I’m running Mandrake 9.2 and while it’s better than some older distributions, it’s still far more complex and user hostile than Windows. Even when there are graphical tools available they’re often such an unfinished, badly documented mess that it’s quicker to edit the config files.
Apple and NeXT both proved that you could make a UNIX based OS that’s consistent and easy to use. Maybe one day Linux will catch up, but at the moment it isn’t in the same league when it comes to ease of use. Linux is interesting to play with but I need an OS that just works, without the constant hassle and wasted time. When I consider how much time Windows has saved me, it’s easily paid for itself 100x over.
So because a game crashes I should restart X and lose all the other graphical apps that I’m running?
Okay, I was under the assumption that you were playing a full-screen game that crashed and made X lock up. With a similar crash under Windows, you wouldn’t be able to summon the task manager at all.
Usually, when a full-screen game crashes, it doesn’t lock up X and returns you to the desktop. Perhaps if you gave specific examples of such crashes I could be more precise. You can also use Ctrl-Alt-plus or minus to change the resolution (and thus possibly return to your desktop).
BTW, a lot of ordinary users won’t know about the Task Manager, so it does not provide a valid example. In any case, there is also a task manager in KDE, which you can bring up with Ctrl-Esc. You can use it to kill your full-screen app.
Then I guess I’m not an ordinary user.
I definitely think you qualify as a Power User.
At the moment I’m running Mandrake 9.2 and while it’s better than some older distributions, it’s still far more complex and user hostile than Windows.
More complex for Power Users, maybe, because they are accustomed to their own methods, shortcuts, and al. My experiences with ordinary users and newbies is that Mandrake 9.2 (and now 10) are in fact very user-friendly.
When I consider how much time Windows has saved me, it’s easily paid for itself 100x over.
I’ve been using Windows since 2.0, up to Win2K (and a little XP). If I had to count all the hours I spent trying to solve problems of all kinds (on my PC and other’s), then I’d say Windows has cost me a lot more than 100x its purchase price.
‘With a similar crash under Windows, you wouldn’t be able to summon the task manager at all.’
In the last 3 years of using windows I’ve never had that happen and I’ve had plenty of app crashes.
‘BTW, a lot of ordinary users won’t know about the Task Manager, so it does not provide a valid example.’
Are you joking? I’ve never met a Windows user who doesn’t know about the task manager. I’m sure there are some out their somewhere, but beginners find out about it quickly IME.
‘In any case, there is also a task manager in KDE, which you can bring up with Ctrl-Esc. You can use it to kill your full-screen app.’
I don’t run KDE as I find it too slow on my PC. But I’ve tried that in the past when an app crashed (MPlayer IIRC) and it didn’t work.
‘I definitely think you qualify as a Power User.’
My mother recently setup a simple network between her laptop and desktop computer. She’s a total Windows newbie, just a week ago I had to explain to her over the phone how to copy and paste text between two apps. I was going to drive round and help her, but she had already plugged them together and worked it out for herself. Do you really think she would have managed that with the same ease in Mandrake Linux?
You consider me a power user, yet I struggled for weeks trying to get samba shares working properly on my Windows network. She definitely doesn’t qualify as a power user, yet she got her network running in 15 minutes.
In the last 3 years of using windows I’ve never had that happen and I’ve had plenty of app crashes.
Lucky for you. I have. Oh, and I had Half-Life spontaneously reboot my Win2K box – something which, I must say, it didn’t do when I played it under WineX…
For the record, we were talking about full-screen games. I’ve had some problem with RTCW Enemy Territory on my PC at work, which runs on Win2K as well.
I’ve never met a Windows user who doesn’t know about the task manager.
Then you haven’t met that many Windows users. And I’m not even counting the tens of million of people who still run
Win98!
Heh, I even showed it today to someone at work.
I don’t run KDE as I find it too slow on my PC. But I’ve tried that in the past when an app crashed (MPlayer IIRC) and it didn’t work.
Perhaps you should try the latest version. KDE 3.2 is faster than previous versions and runs well on older hardware. On a modern system, it runs as fast as WinXP.
I’ve never had a full-screen MPlayer crash so I can’t verify your claim, but I wouldn’t be surprised if that bug was fixed.
She’s a total Windows newbie, just a week ago I had to explain to her over the phone how to copy and paste text between two apps. I was going to drive round and help her, but she had already plugged them together and worked it out for herself. Do you really think she would have managed that with the same ease in Mandrake Linux?
Why not, since copy/paste works the same way in KDE/GNOME as it does in Windows. Actually, there’s even a third way to do it, by selecting text and clicking with the middle mouse button where you want to paste it (I really miss that feature when I’m at work).
You consider me a power user, yet I struggled for weeks trying to get samba shares working properly on my Windows network.
Well, the Mandrake wizard does lack some advanced options, so if you have complex Windows network, I suggest you look into Webmin, or ksambaplugin, or any other of the many samba setup tools now available.
She definitely doesn’t qualify as a power user, yet she got her network running in 15 minutes.
With Mandrake 10 her network would have up and running right after installation.
There are reasons not to use Linux in certain cases, i.e. if an app you can’t live without either isn’t available for it or doesn’t run under wine or emulators such as VMWare. Ease of use is not a good reason anymore.
‘Lucky for you. I have. Oh, and I had Half-Life spontaneously reboot my Win2K box – something which, I must say, it didn’t do when I played it under WineX…’
I beta test quite a few games before they are released, including some that are very unstable. Either I’m amazingly lucky or you’re amazingly unlucky (or there’s something wrong with your system).
‘Then you haven’t met that many Windows users. And I’m not even counting the tens of million of people who still run
Win98!’
Maybe, but OTOH it’s easily learned and almost always works. The ignorance of some Windows users doesn’t change the fact that this is much worse in Linux. IME users who don’t want to have to restart X will sometimes have to use the CLI tools to kill a misbehaving app, while in Windows the task manager is almost always available.
‘Why not, since copy/paste works the same way in KDE/GNOME as it does in Windows. Actually, there’s even a third way to do it, by selecting text and clicking with the middle mouse button where you want to paste it (I really miss that feature when I’m at work).’
I was talking about her setting up the network, not copy/paste. That was just an example to show how inexperienced she is with computers. She could setup the network herself with Windows, while I’m not confident I could get a similar network working properly if she was running Linux.
‘Well, the Mandrake wizard does lack some advanced options, so if you have complex Windows network, I suggest you look into Webmin, or ksambaplugin, or any other of the many samba setup tools now available.’
Or I could just use Windows and have it simply work without all that hassle.
‘With Mandrake 10 her network would have up and running right after installation.’
That doesn’t match my experience of networking with Mandrake. Setting up my Windows network took about 30 minutes and it worked perfectly, adding a Mandrake Linux system to it took nearer 30 hours and it still didn’t work properly.
‘Ease of use is not a good reason anymore.’
That’s your opinion, but it doesn’t match my experiences running Linux. IME ease of use is still a very good reason not to use Linux.
Either I’m amazingly lucky or you’re amazingly unlucky (or there’s something wrong with your system).
Well, if there was something wrong with my system then I couldn’t figure it out. But that shouldn’t be my job – this is Windows, it’s supposed to work well on all systems!!
Anyway, I’ve never had that system do that in Linux, so I guess either a) it wasn’t a problem with my system or b) in this case, hardware support is better on Linux.
Maybe, but OTOH it’s easily learned and almost always works. The ignorance of some Windows users doesn’t change the fact that this is much worse in Linux. IME users who don’t want to have to restart X will sometimes have to use the CLI tools to kill a misbehaving app, while in Windows the task manager is almost always available.
Wrong again. You do not use CLI tools or restart X to kill a misbehaving app. In KDE you press Ctrl-Alt-Esc to bring up the “xkill” pointer. The next app whose window you click into (that includes full-screen windows) will be killed. Like the task manager in Windows, it is “almost always available.”
That doesn’t match my experience of networking with Mandrake. Setting up my Windows network took about 30 minutes and it worked perfectly, adding a Mandrake Linux system to it took nearer 30 hours and it still didn’t work properly.
Maybe there was something wrong with your system…I had samba up and running in 5 minutes.
That’s your opinion, but it doesn’t match my experiences running Linux. IME ease of use is still a very good reason not to use Linux.
Well, that’s your opinion. I’ve had total newbies going around a Linux desktop in minutes. My girlfriend is even more of a novice than your mom (she still can’t tell the difference between HD space and RAM…), and yet at home she uses Linux almost exclusively now. We had a roomate who used Windows and Macs before, and he used the GNOME desktop without any problems either.
A year-old study has shown that total users who had no prior experience with Linux or Windows were basically equally apt at performing a set of tasks on both OSes:
http://www.linux-usability.de/download/linux_usability_report_en.pd…
I think your experiences are severely outdated (and, I suspect, tainted by an anti-Linux bias). Ease of use has come to Linux.
‘Wrong again. You do not use CLI tools or restart X to kill a misbehaving app. In KDE you press Ctrl-Alt-Esc to bring up the “xkill” pointer. The next app whose window you click into (that includes full-screen windows) will be killed.’
I tried that and it didn’t work, yet the game could be killed from the CLI without bringing down X.
‘A year-old study has shown that total users who had no prior experience with Linux or Windows were basically equally apt at performing a set of tasks on both OSes:’
I said in a previous post that if someone else sets up the system and installs all the software then there’s very little difference in ease of use. KDE and OpenOffice are so similar to Windows and MS Office that I think a lot of people would barely notice the difference. If all you need to do is a set of simple tasks in preinstalled software like in this test, then I’m sure Linux is just as good as Windows.
But IME setting up a system, adding hardware and getting everything working smoothly is much more complex and time consuming in Linux. That test may be valid for a company where a network admin would setup the workstations, but not for home users who have to do it themselves.
‘I think your experiences are severely outdated’
I’m running Mandrake Linux 9.2 and version 10 has only just been released. You consider that ‘severely outdated’?
‘(and, I suspect, tainted by an anti-Linux bias).’
I suspect you’re opinions are tainted by extreme pro-Linux and anti-windows bias. Personally I’d love to run a free OS if it did everything as well as commercial OSes like Windows and Mac OS. If anything I had a pro-Linux bias when I first tried to use it, but that was quickly erased when I experienced the unpleasant reality of using Linux.
‘Ease of use has come to Linux.’
Keep repeating that lie for another 10 years and maybe eventually it will actually be true.
I tried that and it didn’t work, yet the game could be killed from the CLI without bringing down X.
Sure. Well, I guess we’ll just have to take your word for it, right?
Well, since you’re calling me a liar (see below), I’ll return the favor to you: I don’t believe you, I think you made that up to push your anti-Linux agenda. In any case, I remember reading posts from you here that bashed Linux before Mandrake 9.2 was out, so it casts further doubts on you trying it out in good faith.
Keep repeating that lie for another 10 years and maybe eventually it will actually be true.
Well, it’s corroborated by studies and personal experience, so I’ll stand by it.
Anyway, you admitted yourself that, properly set up, Linux was as easy to use as Windows – and we know it’s already easier to install (taking less time). Administrative tasks are not harder, just different, which is why Power Users such as you are the ones who have the hardest time, and then feel compelled to spread their FUD on Internet comment boards.
I don’t think there’s anything more to add to this thread. No matter what arguments I’ll bring up, you’ll ignore them to bash Linux some more. Time to move on.