This article is a followup to an article I wrote on 2-20-2003 about my experiences choosing a Linux distribution that would suit my needs and wants. My principal requirements for an OS are that it be powerful and up to date, easy to use and set up–I don’t mind using the command line and I don’t mind editing a file here and there, but I like doing this type of editing for fun, not because I have to. I also want an OS that is fast and looks nice on my PII 450 with about 350 MB of RAM.
After choosing Red Hat as my favorite OS last time, I received many kind emails referring me to one distro or another. For the most part, I tried (or tried to try) all of them. Here are the results…
Let me first get these out of the way. I’ll preclude this by saying I have nothing against these first few distributions, I just couldn’t get them to install… that’s all.
Vector Linux SoHO. I was unable to install this distro in either of the two versions I tried. It came up with errors about files and directories it could not find on the install CD. I couldn’t figure out what it needed and therefore, I never got it installed. I’ll probably experiment more with this because I only hear good things about it.
Peanut Linux – I was interested in Peanut because it seemed very small and is touted as being for those new to Linux, which I am. My computer has two hard drives, one with had Windows XP on it (until recently) and the other I was using for my Linux tests. Peanut wouldn’t recognize my second hard drive. I have no idea why or how to make it see it, but at the time, I wasn’t willing to overwrite my Windows XP drive. I’ve since done so (more on this later) and I’ll probably give it a try again later.
College Linux – I don’t know what I could have done to cause this, but while installing packages 8’s started scrolling across the screen and never stopped. I don’t know what went wrong. Again, I intend to try to install this distro again in the future.
Debian – Debian was hard to get working. I tried to install it a few times, but couldn’t get it working. The first netInstall CD for the stable version of Debian had a hard time with my network card, I eventually got it connected and even installed the base system. Apt wouldn’t work and I was not able to get further than that. I probably could have if I had spent more time with the manual etc. etc. etc., but I just didn’t mess with it too much more. When I tried the testing version of the netInstall CD image, I couldn’t get it to find my Internet connection and therefore couldn’t install it. You’re probably thinking by now that I don’t have a talent for installing Linux or I am just not persistent enough with it… maybe you’re right.
I’d learned enough in email responses from the last article and from reading debian.org about Debian before my install attempts that I was still very excited to try it. It’s method of software installation seems very cool to me. I love trying out the latest and greatest software on Freshmeat or experimenting with web design tools on Linux. If nothing else, I learned using Red Hat and Mandrake that while RPM’s can be very cool, they can also be a HUGE pain. Enough people before me have complained about dependencies for me not to have to. Suffice it to say, I’ve spent more than my share of time on rpmfind.net looking for lib this or “k” that.
This brings me to my next Linux experience… LindowsOS. I thought Lindows was pretty cool and very usable. It was very easy to install and I was thrilled to find out that it is Debian based and as such, retains much of the software installation functionality that Debian offers. Lindows comes pre-configured with popular browser plug ins–something I think every Linux distro should at least give you the option of having during the install.
Their Click-and-Run software warehouse was pretty good. It features a surprisingly large selection of even fairly obscure applications which, despite not always being the most current version, almost always work with literally one click. If you’re on an even slightly slow connection, I’d recommend getting the click-and-run CD and burning it, otherwise waiting for the apps to download will be tortureous. I’m on a 68kbs DSL connection and even with that, installing Star Office took a good 20 minutes.
Lindows also comes with Hancom Sheet and a couple other commercial applications. I don’t really use spreadsheets that much and the differences between StarOfice and OpenOffice.org are so nominal that I never even notice them, commercial apps were, therefore of little worth to me.
The Lindows GUI is very nice–clean, simple and fluid among the different applications. XMMS has a Lindows skin as does Mozilla, both are very nice. I actually found it (for my purposes) to be a powerful OS. Lindows makes a lot of otherwise not so pretty apps look great just by having such a nice theme. It ran decently fast on my computer (though they recommend at least a 500mhz processor) but it wasn’t snappy by any means. Almost all of the software I was looking for was in their Click and Run database. Apt-get could be used to install MOST other applications. Sometimes apt would complain and try to uninstall KDE, but it’s still a pretty functional tool. Networking in Lindows was a breeze as were almost all other configuration options.
I really do not have too many complaints about Lindows. I doubt I’d renew the $99 subscription since I don’t mind installing software from the command line with apt, but for people who don’t want to do that, it might be worth it. I started thinking that once you add up the cost of the os and the money you’ll spend with paying the software subscription, you’re approaching the cost of Windows very quickly, but really that’s not the case. With Lindows (and ANY Linux distro) one thing people all to often fail to mention is that you’re not only getting a full OS, you’re getting a full OS with 99% of the software you need all for free (or for the price of LindowsOS in this case.) With Windows, that is not the case, the cost of Microsoft Office alone makes up for any subscription fees you pay with Lindows or others like it.
Just to quickly comment on the controversy Lindows generates. I think there’s a lot of truth to the statement “there’s no such thing as bad publicity.” I really don’t think that there is much Lindows (or their CEO) could possibly do to tarnish the reputation of the entire Linux community. Anyone who is even half interested in Linux will quickly realize that there are other options and other companies and that LindowsOS does not equal Linux. I think that Lindows will do good for the Linux community in the long run.
How did I finally make the decision to get rid of Windows XP on my desktop for good? Well… the decision was in a way made for me. Linuxinstall.org is the easiest Linux to install, hands down. Before you do it, learn from me and read the instructions! (which consist of about 3 lines). There I was, working on my laptop, I pop the LinuxInstall.org cd in the desktop, reboot and forget about it while I grab a snack. When I came back, the CD was ejected and the computer was ready to reboot. Wow. I didn’t type a single thing or even use the mouse but once I rebooted I was in a fully functional (with web plug ins) version of Red Hat 8.0… on hda1. Ah well… that was a couple weeks ago and I haven’t missed XP at all since then. If you’re going to use linuxinstall.org, make sure it’s on a computer that will ONLY have linuxinstall.org on it. If you do, you’re almost guaranteed a no-click install. Couldn’t other distros find a happy median between this and the experiences I document in this article?
I also got a number of emails about Xandros. Xandros 1.0 was VERY Windows-like in many ways. The file explorer was almost identical to Windows Explorer. It was super easy to use and configure, more so than any other distribution I’ve tried. It was also the fastest distribution I’ve tried, easily beating out Red Hat. Xandros installed easily and once it was up, I had this eeire feeling of “I just installed Linux but I don’t have anything to configure… weird.” It was that easy to use. I really hope this company is able to stick it out and come out with version 2.0 and so on because I really think Xandros has a LOT of potential, but is quickly becoming dated. I didn’t play around too much with installing software, because truthfully, I was too excited to try out the Technology Preview CD. Version 1.0 is Debian based so I’m guessing that had I decided to try to install apps I would have found the process similar to my experience with Lindows. For someone who needed basic, word processing/email/Internet functionality that will run well on older hardware, I wouldn’t hesitate to recommend Xandros 1.0.
At the moment, I’m using Xandros Technology Preview or at least that’s what this was before I tweaked it so much it no longer even says Xandros at startup. Basically I think that the price you pay for Xandros 1.0 is worth it even if you never install 1.0 because the Tech Preview that comes free with it is an easy to install, fully functional version of Debian. Using ONLY apt (NO RPMS and never typing make install) I’ve successfully installed KDE 3.1 and pretty much all the software I have been trying to install on other OS’s without a hitch…(notably Rhythmbox) Ok, that’s an exaggeration, I’ve had plenty of hitches but that, I suppose is part of the process of learning to effectively use apt and the sources.list file correctly. I’ve had to configure Samba and other services manually, but I expected that and after the the other install experiences I’ve had, this isn’t too much of a problem anymore. I still can’t get Gnome2.2 working in the login menu and ctrl+alt+f* shows gibberish instead of terminals but I imagine I’ll get these things working soon enough.
I would NOT recommend Xandros tech preview to someone who has little or no Linux experience. There are simply too many things that are not pre-configured, however for anyone who wants to get Debian working without the install difficulties, it’s perfect. Personally, I find myself having to choose between the giving up using apt, having the biggest and most current software archive available to install very easily or choosing a distro such as Red Hat which has a lot of the configuration tools I really like. Apt is available on Red Hat, but in my experience, there are not nearly as many packages available and those that are there are not always the most current versions. I use the unstable sources in Debian. As I mentioned earlier, I’m excited to see the next version of Xandros which will hopefully include the ease of use and configuration of Xandros 1.0 combined with the power of apt and Debian.
I gave Mandrake another try and installed a 9.1 preview release–the Galaxy theme for Gnome is beautiful. It features (ironically) a lot of blue curves. I was disappointed not to be able to get online. Mandrake 9.0 didn’t give me any problems with getting on line at all. Netconf didn’t work in the preview release and since I had no connection and not much patience for such a large problem, it didn’t last long. I’m sure that that 9.1 will resolve this problem. I wouldn’t mind seeing Galaxy ported to KDE also. I still fully intend on giving Mandrake another chance someday.
Red Hat 8.1 beta was great. The samba configuration tool that is included solved my networking problems. I also took some time with it learning about some of their other configuration tools–there is a graphical configuration tool for pretty much any problem you might have if you look hard enough for it. I liked the minor changes to the Bluecurve interface as well. Do the title bars remind anyone else of worn blue jeans? Despite the beta status, I found no problems or bugs with RedHat 8.1.
In my last article I mentioned I’d like to install Knoppix on my hard drive. It turns out this is very, very easy and I was able to do it (a couple times actually.) Once it’s installed, you have a fully functional Debian install, similar to that of Xandros Tech Preview. My biggest complaint was that I was unable to upgrade to KDE 3.1 using APT. No matter what I tried, it always wanted to remove KDE entirely. I read somewhere that this will be addressed in the next version of Knoppix. I’m looking forward to it. Once that is out, there will be a free, easy to install, fully functional Debian distro available–I think that will be great for Linux in general.
Just to mention briefly, I tried another Knoppix based live-eval CD called Morphix. Morphix is modular which from my understanding means you can burn different versions of it based on your needs. I chose the most useful one (the one with all the games). It’s fun, easy to use and does what it sets out to do well.
Finally, and this doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with choosing a Linux Distro, but while I have my soapbox, I’d like to mention how cool the thumbnail features in KDE 3.1 (and many are also in Gnome 2.2) are. I think it’s amazing how you can see the contents of text documents in a thumbnail, extremely useful to be able to browse to a fonts folder and see what the fonts actually look like before you open them, mouse over an mp3 and it starts playing–this is brilliant. This is usability. This is an area where Linux clearly outshines any other OS I’ve seen. From the perspective of someone who is very visual, these are features that make Linux worth the extra effort required (in most cases) to get it configured.
This article (like the last) didn’t focus much on my experiences actually doing my job in Linux, I plan to address this in a separate article. As of now, I haven’t had enough time to use the available software and give it a fair test. On a similar note, my experimentation with Linux distributions is not scientific or even uniform, it’s based mostly on my whims and fancies. Please do not take criticism of your favorite distribution harshly, these just my impressions.
I appreciated all the helpful feedback and courteous corrections I received after the last article. This, to me, was one of the examples of a time when the Linux community really showed its best side.
———–
Marcus Vorwaller – Silverfish Solutions.
If you can’t even spend the time to rtfm enough to install debian, linux simply isn’t for you. Really, just stay with Windows XP. There is nothing wrong with using OS X or XP.
What are your reasons for wanting to use linux in the first place? It sounds to me like you just want to be l33t.
If you want to develop software or learn about UNIX systems, by all means use linux. Both of these things involve a LOT of reading and long nights of staring at screens. If you just want to listen to mp3s, check email and browse the web linux probably isn’t worth your time.
This article was a joke. I’m saddened by the direction linux will likely head if people look at the operating system as something any idiot should use. Use the right tool for the right job. Linux isn’t the right tool for this tool.
> I’m saddened by the direction linux will likely head if people look at the operating system as something any idiot should use.
I disagree. The fact that experienced users know how to go around some hard problems, doesn’t mean that the “hard problems” are not there. In fact, it means that the “hard problem” *is* there. And trust me, even experienced users would prefer an easier environment to work with rather than having to use their heads all the time.
http://www.linuxinstall.org/faq.php
Q) Does it resize my exiting NTFS/FAT32 hard drive to make a space for Dual-Boot install?
A) No, the installer simply looks for empty space (Non-NTFS/FAT32) and install Linux when you type “dual” in the boot prompt. If you just press Enter key in the boot prompt, it will wipe all partitions including NTFS/FAT32 and install Single-Boot Linux only. In order to install Dual-Boot Linux, you need to resize your HD yourself with a product like Partition Magic to make a space for Linux.
I agree with you but I have to say you started a flame war. Your gonna have a million idiots on your ass with a lighter cause then wanna be “cool/l33t” too. It’s not fair that your more technologically inclined. Listen anyone should be able to use Linux, not gonna stop you, but don’t come bitchin about how much it sucks when you can’t figure out how to get it working. It’s never been there to do everything for you, you can’t be lazy with it. Linux was made so that you could build an operating system on your computer that was tweaked and configured to run on your specific hardware using the programs you want to use. It’s not competing to win the average Windows user, because the last thing Linux developers need are whiny users sending crap loads of e-mails to figure out why certain features aren’t there.
Second part of comment wasn’t directed at your yerma. Sorry if I didn’t make that clear. I’m talking to the potential falmers.
“The fact that experienced users know how to go around some hard problems, doesn’t mean that the “hard problems” are not there.”
The fact is most ‘hard problems’ are simply a matter of manually editing a configuration file after reading a man page. imo that’s how it should be. Any less hands on of an approach takes power from the user.
No, it is not always that matter, sorry. And reading man pages just to learn how to change your resolution, or how to change a mouse driver, or how to add support for your new sound card, SUCKS. Sorry.
In these cases, it is not matter of “power”, it is a matter of *unessary* complexity.
And this is exactly why I have little faith in the future of Linux. You always get these damn elitists who think sensible UI doesn’t include fully functional backends / engines. You can be proud of your semi-scalable server platform and talk down people who don’t blow their time reading how to configure your half-assed software because you’re too good to make it function, or you can admit that you don’t know how to code for anyone but yourself. Do you care about computers, and their applications as they apply to computing? Then make fully functional software. You just wanna use computers as a hobby? Then go ahead and have fun, but don’t talk down people who are just as good as you for not wasting their time with your POS product. No one was “bitching” about anything, he was just pointing out an obvious impotence in Linux- flimsy compatibility / ease of configuration. Quit bitchin’ about feedback.
“No, it is not always that matter, sorry”
Um. both cases you proceed to list ARE matters of reading manpages. So, yes. It almost always is simply reading a manpage and editing a file.
“And reading man pages just to learn how to change your resolution, or how to change a mouse driver, or how to add support for your new sound card, SUCKS. Sorry.
In these cases, it is not matter of “power”, it is a matter of *unessary* complexity.”
I disagree. Do you have any idea how insanely large and requisitely cluttered a gui configuration tool would need to be to create say, a .muttrc? There are hundreds of possible options in apps like X11, mutt, apache, etc. The simplest quickest way to configure these is via a text based configuration with a manual by your side. And there are in fact tools to change simple things like resolution, etc.
As far as a sound card, that is a kernel issue. Most distros these days allow you to select modules to compile during install. If you don’t know what sort of hardware you are running, you also should probably not be using GNU/Linux.
Nobody said that we need a gui for just about everything. But we need a gui for the things that 99% of the people will need on a daily or weekly basis.
And please keep the headers when you reply as RE:<header title>, otherwise it is tricky to see where you reply exactly.
Linus has said in recent interviews that he wants Linux to succed on the desktop.
yerma: You don’t own Linux, so don’t act like you do! I found the article to be very fun and at some part interesting so SHUT UP, please.
” If you don’t know what sort of hardware you are running, you also should probably not be using GNU/Linux.”
Eugenia: This man knows nothing about humanity, his out of help.
“I’m saddened by the direction linux will likely head if people look at the operating system as something any idiot should use.”
yerma: Do you think that speachbooks for the blinds shouldn’t exist because books very written for people who can see?
“Do you have any idea how insanely large and requisitely cluttered a gui configuration tool would need to be to create say, a .muttrc?”
Who said a GUI utility needs to produce an entire configuration file for anything? And it’s not like a GUI tool would take away the precious config file. It’s there for your user-dependant pleasure. In all your hacker glory, please, by all means, spend as much time as you like getting mutt to work exactly how you like, with the manual pages on one BASH prompt, Vi open on another, and lynx looking up as much as it can online in a third. Saints be praised for ctrl+alt+fn (actually, I do love and appreciate that function, after recently installing MS-DOS).
Eugenia: Sorry, I’ll try to remember my headers from now on. I did like my title, though
Wow, I’m a ‘n00b’? I’d like to see if you have as much experience and knowledge relating to UNIX based systems and UNIX programming as I do. Then we will see who the n00b is.
“You can be proud of your semi-scalable server platform and talk down people who don’t blow their time reading how to configure your half-assed software because you’re too good to make it function, or you can admit that you don’t know how to code for anyone but yourself. ”
What the hell are you talking about? Half-assed software? Are you serious? And how the hell is reading a manual wasting time? You are learning. Tools of the power which are distributed with a UNIX like system require reading. There is a steeper learning curve than Win32 tools. For this reason you must learn to read, but you also will be granted with a greater power than imaginable in the Win32 realm.
“Do you care about computers, and their applications as they apply to computing? Then make fully functional software. You just wanna use computers as a hobby?”
First of all I see you continually refer to GNU/Linux as ‘your’ product. I am not linus, nor have I created any of the base system GNU software, so please, I have no ownership over this operating system.
Secondly, GNU software IS fully functional. It does everything it aims for — to create a fully functional UNIX clone. Maybe it isn’t fully functional in the sense that windows is fully functional, but that was not the goal my friend.
“Then go ahead and have fun, but don’t talk down people who are just as good as you for not wasting their time with your POS product.”
I agree, this man is just as good as me. There is nothing wrong with not using GNU/Linux. I would encourage many people in fact to NOT use it. It simply isn’t for everyone. If Windows XP meets your needs, why switch? I think this person IS wasting his time by installing Linux at all, as he seems to have no good reason to use a UNIX based operating system.
And as far as GNU/Linux being a POS, many would beg to differ, but I don’t have the time to itemize a list of ways in which GNU/Linux has done good.
{{{” If you don’t know what sort of hardware you are running, you also should probably not be using GNU/Linux.”
Eugenia: This man knows nothing about humanity, his out of help.
“I’m saddened by the direction linux will likely head if people look at the operating system as something any idiot should use.”
yerma: Do you think that speachbooks for the blinds shouldn’t exist because books very written for people who can see? }}}
No, I do believe speechbooks for the blind should exist. There are different groups of people with different needs. People who can see need text books. People who can’t need audio books.
People who just want to browse the web, do email, and listen to mp3s have Windows XP and Mac OSX. These are both fairly stable operating systems and function well.
People who would like to take the time to learn about UNIX have the BSDs and GNU/Linux. They take time to learn. They require that you read quite a bit. If this is not worth your time just stick to a mainstream OS that is more ‘user friendly’.
Your logic is.. poor.
Look, one of my biggest problems with these replies is that people seem to think they are owed something. The creators of GNU/Linux owe you NOTHING. You gave them NOTHING. They can create an operating system as vague and non-user-friendly as they want. If you don’t like it don’t use it!
If foo sucks. Don’t use it!
>If foo sucks. Don’t use it!
I begin to understand your logic, and I agree on this. If something is not good enough you, stay with what is good enough for you. In this logic we are in agreement.
However, Linux has a lot of HYPE and PUSH recently from the media, and people EXPECT a lot from it. Proving all that hype wrong, it is what drives people to critisize the situation.
I would agree with you on some points, but you have other points which show elitism and non-realism, which is really nerve wrecking and make me overall peeved on your opinions…
You know if everyone thought that we should do away with all abstraction, automation, etc. we would all have to program stuff in machine code language.
If you want to go in and edit the text file great. Well done! Thats your choice. If you want to be efficient and have someone read the man page and then create a front end to change the resolution via chaging the text file for you, even better.
The world would be stuck in the stone age with the mentality you seem in favor of.
“First of all I see you continually refer to GNU/Linux as ‘your’ product.”
GNU/Linux is “our” product, thats the whole purpose, of the GPL. You can take any GPL’d code, an you have just as much power over it as the person who wrote it.
You are right, UNIX is not for everyone. And Eugenia is right, even power users appreciate simple usability and configurability. What is wrong is to force that old lizard to be something it isn’t. There are lots of nice OSes out there. And there is UNIX, for people like Yerma, who have a masochist streak, who find “man” and “vi” to be fully functional equivalents of printed manuals, online help and config panels.
However, Yerma, you shouldn’t insult the people who fall for Linux propaganda. Insult the Linux apologists who fool people into thinking that Linux isn’t about Vi, kernel issues and man pages. And insult the creators of GNOME and KDE while you’re at it. Those are the ones actively contributing to the downfall of Linux, not the lusers who actually believe the propaganda spread by most of your Linux brethren.
Yerma, look around you and wake the hell up. Linux is evolving at a amazing rate and Linus (who probably knows a bit more about the OS than you) has publicly stated his goal is a desktop OS.
Telling people that Linux isn’t for them just because they can’t install Debian is elitist and arrogant. Some people simply don’t have the time to sit down and find out what man and vi actually are. Sometimes it’s better to get a working desktop up and running and then let them explore the OS on their own. Just because people aren’t as “l33t” as you are doesn’t mean they shouldn’t learn Linux or shouldn’t try.
You attitude sucks and I’m glad elitists like yourself aren’t typical of our Linux community. If everybody had an attitude like yours, Linus would be patting himself on the back somewhere, congratulating himself on how smart he is and how dumb everybody else is.
By the way, I run Debian.
Where, [email protected], did I say YOU were the “n00b”? It was sarcasm. Detect it. I was refering to how you talk about other people.
The half-assed software isn’t the majority of software. I run a GNU/Linux based server on my network. It was easy to install. It worked out of the box. To make it do what I really wanted it to took some reading and learning and light hacking, not to mention about a week of my time. I’m no guru, but I’m no newbie. I think it was a good amount of required dedication for the desired functionality. The problem arises when installing something is a nightmare. Installation should be hitchless, on standard equipment (ie, odd ports aren’t expected to be easy). I don’t believe in a tool that begs and whines for my attention just to start basic functionality. That’s all. And saying, “Hmm, this thing’s a bitch to even set up, when I know similar items are not” isn’t bitching, it’s feedback. Don’t curse criticism.
“First of all I see you continually refer to GNU/Linux as ‘your’ product.”
Wha? No, I meant half-assed apps where the maintainer recommends bizzare to get their product to run right. Sorry if I said GNU/Linux was yours. Didn’t mean to.
“Maybe it isn’t fully functional in the sense that windows is fully functional, but that was not the goal my friend.”
Whoa there! Windows is not fully functional in any way, I say! Maybe for some people, but hell, I have trouble *saving documents* in Word. It _crashes_. But I just think there are places where Linux is trying to be and totally could be by now, except for this attitude of “nah, that’s not what it’s for, let’s just not try and lets shun the n00bs.” Functional, again, includes hackless installation.
“I would encourage many people in fact to NOT use it.”
Same here, it’s not ready for the desktop yet, by far. But this guy’s curious. He wants to know. He wants to use software. He, I, and a lot of other people laugh at something that’s so difficult to install or configure as some things. I’ve got nothing against config text files, and love using a number of them, from httpd to smb to icewm to X to… well, lots of them! But there are a number of times when you do what *should* naturally be the right thing, but there was some quirk that really shouldn’t be there.
“as far as GNU/Linux being a POS…”
Again, I’m not saying GNU/Linux, I’m saying some apps, especially on some configurations. It’s quirky. GNU/Linux itself is… well, great. No one can argue. It can definitely be argued that there could be something better, but who cares? GNU/Linux itself does work, and well. Ya just end up with these quirks that’ll turn off a potential user real fast.
For anyone who is just curious, don’t just say Linux isn’t for them. They wanna play, let them play, and don’t chastise their choice of curiosity.
— “On a similar note, my experimentation with Linux distributions is not scientific or even uniform, it’s based mostly on my whims and fancies.”
And yet some how its the best, most informative, and most useful comparative review for linux distros I have EVER read. Not bad.
— “If you can’t even spend the time to rtfm enough to install debian, linux simply isn’t for you.”
Why should you have to ‘rtfm’ to install Linux? Go back to the 90s where you belong while the rest of us enjoy a truly funtional and mature desktop Linux that doesn’t even require a manual to install. If debian can’t keep up, to bad for debian.
Will you guys comment on the article itself instead of flaming each other ?
I was curious to know how a pentium 450 with about 350 MB would handle distributions like Vector Linux, Peanut and Debian. From what I’ve read, that shouldn’t have been a problem. Too bad, the author couldn’t completely install those distros.
I appreciate your experiences, I’m a newbie too. I started with Mandrake 9.0 and while trying to install Abiword, ran into a dependency hell and soon after, I got the hell outta Dodge. There had to be a better way, this crap about RTFM, is for the birds, I can’t read Sanskrit.
I couldn’t believe it, ten years and these geniuses couldn’t create a civilized way to install software, while Apple did OS X in a couple of years, but who has the dough to buy apple?
So it’s Linux for now. RPMS? puleeze!
Then I ran into this article by Clinton De Young on how to install Woody:
http://osnews.com/story.php?news_id=2016
everybody had told me that Debian was for übergeeks and how tough it was, but surprise!, a drooling moron like me, found heaven, it was written in English and explained step by step how to install it. I liked it so much I translated into Spanish and today it can be read by Spanish-speaking newbies in Europe and Latin America at the TLDP site.
As for me, I never looked back, once I got it installed and used “apt-get” for my program installations, it has been a journey into the unknown, it’s fun, I love it.
Of course, no good deed goes unpunished, as Clinton found out in a hurry.
Thanks a million, Clinton!
Luigi
Linux isn’t for everyone. Its not easy. I’ve listened to the complaints over and over again. All concerns have been addressed or are rather easy to fix, but they keep coming. Everytime a new feature creeps into OSX or Windows XP Linux HAS to have it before its an acceptable alternative. It must be simple to use and allow any moron to setup a webserver and build a corporate network through the GUI. And it comes so close to offering you this flexibility, but…
Well, if you’re not interested in learning UNIX then you shouldn’t be using Linux right now. Perhaps in a few years when we work out all the bugs, get better hardware support (from the manufacturers) and polish up the GUI a bit, but right now it is not easy for someone who just wants to do their work.
It takes me on average about 2 to 3 hours to configure my Linux system after an install (I’m a professional admin). There are many themes, icons, widgets, apps, etc, that I need to install and customize before it is a stable usable workstation. The default RedHat install is usable, but just doesn’t do it for me, so I’m sure it wouldn’t do it for you.
Linux is designed for efficiency. Its the best TCO solution for business. TCO doesn’t factor in usability, it only cares about the bottom line. If you want to save money and have the brains to know how to run your business yourself, then use Linux. But if you’re just a desktop user or don’t know how to run your business you should wait/outsource.
You should wait until the rest of the world is using linux before you decide to switch. Wait until Microsoft goes bankrupt or your company forces Linux upon you. Then Linux MIGHT be ready for you.
But if you’re paying Microsoft that whole time maybe they won’t go bankrupt and you’ll never have to learn a new OS again. Yay capitalism.
Us Linux users don’t need your support. Thank you.
“Why should you have to ‘rtfm’ to install Linux? Go back to the 90s where you belong while the rest of us enjoy a truly funtional and mature desktop Linux that doesn’t even require a manual to install.”
I totally second that! I’ve tried a lot of distros that just wouldn’t boot the install CD properly. I’ve tried a lot that do. Debian didn’t work for me, as it happens, just like the author (though my problem was with CD-ROM drive detection). Knowing I had about 5 other recently burned distros to try, I simply gave up on the spot. I go with what works. What flounders before getting off the ground goes in the Trash Can(tm).
Well, maybe Linus should pat himself on the back.
He has put a lot of hard work into an OS that people whine about being too hard. None of those people that complain about the GUI would ever thank Linus for all the hard work he gave them for free. Millions of line of code and IP, just given away for the fun of building UNIX on a PC.
I’m am personally appalled at the ignorance of some people, myself included. I don’t know auto mechanics or physics, beyond a college level. I’m a moron when it comes to my car. But I’m willing to grab a manual and a screw driver and dive into the engine to replace a distributor cap or whatever. Same thing as vi /etc/resolv.conf.
I had my dad configure his Linux box a few months ago. He didn’t know vi and talking him through it was not easy. So I showed him how to open his config files in gedit. He hasn’t asked for support since. He’s ripping and burning his CD collection into ogg files, browsing the net, printing, etc. on a 1.8Ghz athlon he bought 6 months ago. Cost? $500 and a few hours of tech support.
But if you don’t know me Linux isn’t for you. Sorry.
The reason “newbies” are expecting Linux to be as easy to use as Windows and other desktop OSes, is that Linux advocates and desktop Linux companies like Mandrake have been hyping it as a desktop OS.
If you don’t want users trying Linux who expect an OS to work without major effort, you should complain to the advocates. When people are constantly saying that Linux is as easy as Windows, is it any wonder that people who try Linux actually expect it to be true?
I think it’s amazing how you can see the contents of text documents in a thumbnail, extremely useful to be able to browse to a fonts folder and see what the fonts actually look like before you open them, mouse over an mp3 and it starts playing–this is brilliant. This is usability. This is an area where Linux clearly outshines any other OS I’ve seen.
Seen Windows XP? I have all that.
But you’ve also got users like myself, stuck between novice and guru. I can do pretty much anything with a working Linux box, it just takes me forever. Takes me forever to figure anything out, change the right thing, unscrew up what I screwed up, but eventually, I can get pretty much anything under the sun to work. I’m what a Windows user calls a Computer God, and what a UNIX user calls A Slow End User (in the UNIX sense, not Win). What about me? For me, Linux *is* a great desktop. There are just a few brain dead things. If I complain on a message board about how hard something is to configure and ask for help, most of the time people are understanding. Once in a while there are people who suggest I go back to Windows cuz obviously UNIX isn’t for me. I may not be as handy as they are, but I can hold my own, even if they wanna blast me with superiority. Windows doesn’t have the flexibility I need as a user. Reversely, Linux is a little too cumbersome. But given the choice between tough functionality and lack of functionality, I make the only choice there really is for me. I use Linux. I’m not amazing with computers. What else am I supposed to do?
Most of the problems that I have found as a Linux newbie are related to the dismally poor quality of the documentation. I am not saying that the manuals and how-to’s are badly written. I mean that they are badly organized. There does not seem to be any single standard for documentation that works equivalent to the way CVS works for programming. The Linux Documentation project is trying hard, but so far their collection is a tangled up mishmash of confusion to a newcomer.
To those who become impatient with us newbies, I would like to point out that most of us are perfectly willing to RTFM, if we can find it.
When I first started with Linux I selected the option of installing every documentation file that was offered on the installation CD. Every single one. Once I booted up the first thing I did was try to look up a few details so that I could configure my system to suit myself. Anyone who has used Linux knows exactly what I found.
I have been a technical writer for many years. I can say from biter experience that it does not matter how good, or technically beautiful something is. If you can’t train or explain how to use it easily, then it might as well be junk. Designing an effective user interface is PART OF THE PROCESS of designing something for the mass market. I know, I know. Linux is not for the mass market. Linux is a private club for the ultra-sophisticated who wanted a private place to tinker.
One way to keep us smelly newbies from contaminating the purity of the Linux genepool is to deliberately use obfuscatory terms that only mean something when you know the secret language of programming slang. Once I figured out a few things on my own, I went back to re-read TFM and found that the same thing cold easily have been described in plain English in about half the space. But then the newbies might have been able to do it. This is why I use Lycoris now. They explain things in terms that are comprehensible to a non-programmer.
Unfortunately, the good times are over guys. The secret is out. I am just a slightly techno end user. But even I, ignorant as I am, can see the advantages of a free, open, customizable, stable, fast and efficient operating system. Like it or not, we are here to stay. Deal with it.
I’m surprised I didn’t get some of this after the last article I wrote.
As far as why I wanted to try Linux… It was so I could be l33t. No, really, that’s why. Everybody else is doing it, why can’t I? It’s to prove I’m really not an idiot.
Actually, I think it’s fun. I mentioned in the article I like trying out what I find on freshmeat and sure, the hype intrigued me (as I mentioned in the first article.)
I’ve been using Linux on the server side for a while now, but my exposure has been fairly limited to FTP, SSH and basic configuration of a few things here and there. I think that by using it on the desktop, I’ve learned a good bit more about what’s really happening.
I still use XP on my principal computer, but I plan to keep Linux on the desktop and will continue to use it on the server side.
Thanks everyone else for your comments. I’ve found that 99% of the Linux community has been very helpful and understanding.
Montanus: will you tell me what settings you use to show the actual font style in the icon, the first few actual lines of a text document in the icon, or how you roll over an MP3’s icon and make it play. I must be missing out on something cool.
Nathan O.: I agree.. I doubt I’d be considered a “Computer God” by most Windows people, but for the most part, I know exactly where you’re coming from.
You tell everyone to use linux and they complain that its not ready, its too hard, etc.
You tell them not to use it and they think you have a superiority complex.
Well, what is it? Its obviously can’t be the fault of the newbie.
Either it is ready or it is not. Which is it?
Did you happen to think that windows is unstable and most people (even “any idiot”) likes stability? I am a computer user who has been fed up with microsoft’s instability for a while now. I dual booted pro2k/mandrake for quite some time and have been windows free now since october. The good thing about linux is that you can choose to use the gui to configure things OR manually edit the config files. In order for non-tech users to use linux there has to be a GUI configuration tool for most tasks. It appears to me that what marcus was doing here was messing around with different distros to see which one was the most usable for the standard user (the person who finds something they like online and think “I NEED TO INSTALL THAT”. think screen savers and forward E-mails with executable attachments) He also helped the general public by posting a story about what he’s found out. If you aren’t about helping the general public use the software, what good are you? isn’t that what the GPL is for? better the software? if the standard user can’t use the software, then what good is it anyway? I believe that linux is a very usable solution for the desktop, it just needs to be refined a little more for the general public to be able to use it.
Why is it that everyone around here feels the Linux should be the ultimate panacea? The only think lacking around here are prohecies the messiah will come to us as a linux only program. Come on already. Face it, linux is not for everyone. Stop trying to force it to be before its ready. We don’t have to have linux embedded into everyone’s underwear, right now!
I don’t see people running over to Active Win and bitching about how they can’t run windows professional as their ftp/web/radius server out of the box. Much less demanding it do it will autoconfiguring everything exactly how they are thinking at any given moment. They focus on what they can use it for. <– This might be a little strange to some of us, but people actually use their computers for doing things. Not just to soak up all those annoying hours that the sun up for “computing sake”.
Linux right now, is just linux. Its not linux the desktop OS for you, grandma, and grandma’s 3yr old boyfriend who likes video games. Its not the utimate in ubber-security to protect you from 1337 H@x0Rz. Its not the best tool for every server job, so that all your UNIX are belong to Linux. Its not the most stable, integrated, everything just works system. (Those come in titanium and aluminum packages.) Its not for the business man who likes everything to sync up with his PDA w/o first getting a degree in Computer Programming. Its not for 90% of the people living today – and probably a few percentage of those people who are dead. (For those of us around here the believe Linux can raise the dead.)
For the average user, who beyond belief knows less than you’d expect and is more prevalent than you’d ever believe. Questions like, “can I check my email from my computer without using a web browser?” get asked. Not, “how do I configure Evolution to use SLL with the IMAP protocal?”, which is usually what people here would consider n00bish. Linux isn’t ready for any of that and its community certainly is by no means even remotely open to it.
One of the big problems around here is that as a community we geeks are to bothered by the implementation than by its realworld affects. We can spend days, months, sometimes even years screaming over how things should be done. Like should the X server maintain its client server structure, should I have modules in the kernel, which VMM should I use. In the end, it makes not much of a difference to people who just use their computers. If your playing Quake, do you stop and wonder what kind of VMM your opponent is using before you frag him? When your writting a webpage do you think about if your system loads kernel modules on demand or just loads them all on boot? Most likely no. As long as it works, it works. But we don’t see that around here. Instead its we have to have to newest/fastest/most mathematically pleasing implementations. Which is fine for a hobby, but some how we mistake getting new widgets with being ready for the desktop, or getting a new VMM with being ready for the desktop, or getting a pretty theme for KDE and Gnome as being ready for the desktop. Each time one change happens everyone thinks “we’re ready for the desktop.”
We’re not. We don’t even know how to think about the desktop. On the desktop people want to talk to each other. So we make 50 different AIM clients that have no additional features a user can use over the basic linux client AOL released. But they all have their own unique way of interacting with OSCAR and link to each developer’s favorite libraries. Then we wonder why they stick with the windows version which has file sending, and voice chat. People on the desktop want to look at webpages. We write an entire XUL language to create browser driven programs, and write the most standards compliant/elegant browser we can. It doesn’t display 1/3 of all frontpage pages correctly but thats the pages fault because its not standard right? This again assumes the user knows, much less actually cares, about standards compliance. If a bank has a non-std webpage, a desktop user isn’t going stomp around and cry about this is sacreligous, he’s going to go get a browser that works with it.
Yerma is right, linux isn’t for most people yet. Everyone else around here has their head in the clouds at the moment. Linux is just linux. Its an OS that can run servers pretty well, it has a few GUIs written for its X server and its got a lot of programs it can run. But when it comes down to it, its about as “ready for the desktop” as any BSD, Solaris, or IRIX is.
Either it is ready or it is not. Which is it?
its not really and never will be.
Once you start comparing Linux to XP or OS X then its not really for you.
PLEASE, all of you thinking of installing Linux, leave your bias behind if you want to install and run Linux. If you can’t, then don’t install it. You do a great disservice to all other users.
Anyone interested in installing Linux should go download KNOPPIX and try it for a year before attempting to install Linux.
Get your feet wet before diving into the water because a lot of Linux users are sick and tried of people crying and bitching.
I would like to see a distro with all of these attributes:
* i686 optimized
* dependency-resolving _binary_ package system
* automatic hardware detection and modprobing
(and less crucially)
* Qt with Xft2/fontconfig support
* browser plugins preconfigured
* a unified GNOME/KDE theme like bluecurve, galaxy
It is not as if any of these features precludes any of the others, so I can’t see why we still don’t have a distro which satisfies all of these wishes. Mandrake is pretty close, but i586, and they impose their own icons, tools, etc.; Yoper has no package manager; Arch is missing automatic hardware detection; RH is i386 (among other problems); Knoppix is i486/i386; Gentoo has only src packages (but GRP will be nice); Ark looks promising, but its rpm-apt repositories were not functional last time I checked.
It’s not that I can’t recompile apps and setup the kernel for my hardware, and patch Qt, etc–I can and I have–it’s just that I don’t particularly want to spend the time. Especially if I’m dealing with more than a few machines.
i have to agree with many of the comments. one problem with linux is the knowitall elit peopol that threats evry newbi like an idiot. we all started out sometime with out knowing how to do certing things. and i disagre with not using linux as an desktop os for mp3s videos surfing the web i personly think thats its an excelent os for that.i can absolutly agree that modding a text file is the best way to configure an app. becus you simpli cant fit all options to a gui. but why not have it both ways a gui with the ussual option that writes a clean config file. if you are going to do something advanced edit the config files fore simpel things use the gui. that is one thing i dont like about most gui config apps the write horribel config files that are messy to work with. thats why i only use debian anfd gentoo. i wish peoupol that wrote the config apps would make the write easy config files. but then agin since im complayning about it and since its linux i have the power to fix it , guess thats wath the community is about
Just to clarify a common misconception about Redhat – it is not i386.
It mixes i686 nd i386 flags (march and mcpu, cant remember which way round)
The idea being that you get performance for i686, but will still run on non-686 processors (like mine a K6)
I think some of these quotes from the various Linux distributions websites help to show why so many people are trying out Linux. Nothing is mentioned about configuring text files or the command line or being and advanced computer user before you attempt to install and use Linux.
Redhat 8.0 is geared for those who are: “Looking to create the ultimate open source desktop” and who are “Just learning Linux.”
SuSE has “unprecedented degree of technical maturity and user-friendly design.” ” (SuSE’s) modern desktop environment makes working, playing, and surfing more comfortable for users and equips professionals with complex, adaptable tools.”
“Mandrake Linux is a friendly Linux Operating System which specializes in ease-of-use for both servers and the home/office”
Vector Linux says ” For the casual computer user you have a lightning fast desktop with graphical programs to handle your daily activities from web surfing, sending and receiving email, chatting on ICQ or IRC to running an ftp server.”
Lycoris: “Desktop/LX is an operating system designed with your ease of use in mind.”
“Xandros Desktop is an easy to use, highly compatible Linux distribution for desktop computer users. It provides an alternative operating system environment that is simple to install, configure and use…”
“LindowsOS is designed with the desktop user in mind and is the easiest to install and use operating system you’ll ever experience. ”
Peanut Linux comes “pre-software configured OS with a spectacular GUI for the most versatile operating system available today!.”
College Linux is “easy to install and use and which provides an alternative to the traditional commercial operating systems.”
Everyone seems to forget that urpmi has dependency resolving. I don’t use mandrake, but I believe urpmi is the BEST rpm management program out there. Just set the sources to the internet instead of the cd’s, and you’re good to go with anything you want to install. No more RPM dependency hell.
They sure do sound good. lol
Gee, do you think its hype?..
Use your computer as an easy and lightning fast way to.. store recipes.
Yet another unbiassed review:
I’m a web designer and a recent Linux convert who has tried several of the large distros. This article is the summary of my experience over the last few months. I decided to start using Linux a few months ago around the time Mandrake went to version 9 and Red Hat to version 8. With all the hype I figured I’d give it a try.
Mandrake 9 was my first distro–it gave me problems with user management from the first day. It didn’t seem intuitive and I lasted about a week with it. At the recommendation of many linux users, I installed RedHat 8. I found it to be an easy transition from Windows (with the exception of networking and mounting drives). Not only that, it ran faster than XP and was more customizable.
Why am I not surprised at this? I don’t really see the point of this review. Its definitely not for newbies who never tried linux, for the author himself claims that he has nothing against editing a file here and there. But even if it was for newbies, I still would expect a newbie to at least take a short look at the installation guide: in case of yoper, type yoper to begin to install – its there, and it can’t be missed, even if you just skim through the documentation. Yet the author’s biggest problem was looking up that info on google.
As one by one each distro is discarded with similar ridiculous excuses, one conclusion presents itself: Red Hat is the best! Its faster than SuSe, its doesn’t have ‘issues’ like Mandrake, and, oh, I almost forgot to add: BlueCurve and unified desktop rules. (as opposed to At this point, if the reader has a haunting feeling of deja vu, he probably has spent a lot of time reading osnews reviews. Even while it was not written by Eugenia, the language it uses while writing off each distro is simply disgusting (anyone remember Mandrake or KDE reviews?)
Lycoris is ‘pitiful’ in its package default package selection, and it was “dumbed down just enough leave me wanting enough to not use it for long”. SuSe: “YAST and YAST2 seemed awkward and slow.” Yoper “was a HUGE disappointment” for reasons above. The only one distro that’s good is Knoppix, which is CD based anyway. Lucky we have Red Hat, for “After going back and forth from one thing to another, I’m now on my fourth install of RH 8 and I don’t plan to change again. As far as I can tell, and from my experience so far, it is the best Linux distro out there.” Read why: its faster, nicer, simpler, + it has the excellent option of “right click>new terminal” which is just lovely in GNOME.
The whole ‘review’ becomes really hilarious when it seems that the author doesn’t have a problem with having to search google to find out how to mount a drive. But RH is still the best, even while: After messing around with linuxconf long enough (which isn’t recommended for RedHat 8), reading enough manuals and asking enough questions, I can sometimes get samba up and running half right” (well, it took me 4 clicks with samba-wizard in mandrake to set it up). Forgot to add having to manually edit fstab (what is fstab anyway? … all right I know it…)
And of course, the authority of the author is established in the end, (and because it was beginning with the same announcment, it puts the story in a nice frame): “Maybe this should have been an intro, but better late than never–my background is as a web designer and developer.” Hmmm… familiar? This is not very fair with newbies, but again, what is the audience – save for osnews readers – this ‘review’ is targeted at? Newbies? They will love googling for info about how to mount a cdrom. They will also love editing fstab and having Samba working sometimes. Experienced linux users? What does this review tell to them? What seems to be the case is that this is yet another ‘Red Hat and Bluecurve is the best, and I want the world to know this’ type of review. Nicely done, osnews (again).
There are some realy snobs around here aren’t there.
Why use Linux if all you do is surf and e-mail?
Well- (1) perhaps you would like to try and alternative and see if you can do a little bit more than just surf and read e-mail. Linux has an enormous amount of software that you won’t know will benefit you untill you try it. (2) Perhpaps you are philosophically opposed to Bill Gates. I spend my whole day in front of a computer using spreadsheets/word processors etc and I personally feel chained to a post unless I have an alternative.
I’m no computer guru. I have had an almost identical experience to the guy who wrote the article. Rather than solving a problem, sometimes it is more efficient to just grab another distro install it and see if it automagically configures everything for you. Later on when you know more about linux, it might become more efficient to keep your present distro and solve its problems. This article wasn’t critical of linux distros. The author was merely honest.
Newbies who are open minded and don’t mind spending a few bucks contribute just as much if not more to Linux than elites who talk big but don’t actually contribute anything substantial in the way of free software.
Linux is like waaaaaaaaaaaaay overhyped!!
Why can’t these distro makers simply be honest about what Linux does well and what it does not?
Linux for casual computer users? LAMO!!
hey buster, i can do anything you can do with Linux, compiling the OS & apps and all that CLI crap gets old after a while, “done been there and done that” now i see no problem with computer users getting a copy of Linux and installing it for checking their email, surfing the big WWW, playing games, writing documents & etc…etc…
ever install Mandrake, Redhat, SuSE, these are quite user friendly and if someone can install Windoze they can install any of the three above…
yerma you need to get a life, maybe if you get away from the computer for a while, go out with some friends (if you have any) maybe you just might get lucky enough to get laid…
Wow, I went to work for a few hours and came back to find this commentary has exploded. First I’d like to say I think Vincent really made a nice summary that I agree with..
Here is my position:
GNU/Linux and ‘free’ software in general was developed by people who were creating solutions for their own problems. The aim of most of these utilities was to make a better UNIX like environment to develop with, host servers with, etc. Obviously these people were techies. They had no problem with manually editing configuration files because that is the way they prefer it. While it may take a little time reading a manual, the end result is a highly configurable system where the power lies not between the interface and the user but directly in the user.
It is only natural that, since these tools were developed FOR developers and sys admins, that they are not highly accessible to non-technical people.
For this reason I think that GNU/Linux and other ‘free’ UNIX based operating systems are not of incredible use to the general public. The entire goal of the GNU project was to create a UNIX like operating system which is free as in freedom. The goal was not to become the mainstream desktop operating system for users.
Now things are changing. Free software development has ballooned and the motivations behind development are no longer what they used to be. While a developer may have previously created a tool because he/she required it, or may have appended a feature to a tool because he/she wanted it, now developers are making free software for other people. I can’t say what the motivation is, but in my personal experience it is simply that coding is damn fun. The GNU and Linux kernel people have created a free UNIX based operating system that works. Now people are looking further.
This next frontier is the average user desktop. Projects like GNOME and KDE are bringing this into reality, but the fact is we are at a transitional state right now in this field. Unfortunately we have a lot of (zealots) who run around saying that GNU/Linux is a desktop replacement TODAY. It is not, as this article perhaps shows.
Now the problem arises that there are people like me who use GNU/Linux as a development platform. Yes, I use it as a desktop too, but I wouldn’t expect the average person to sit at my Openbox session which has simply ‘xterm’ and ‘exit’ in the right click menu and be able to do a thing.
Now people like me read these articles and see things on various bbses and newsgroups with people complaining that GNU/Linux is not a good desktop operating system for Joe 6-pack. Who claimed it was? If you can remember who told you it was please make note to run away from them next time they give you some piece of advice. Linux is an incredibly powerful and versatile system that can do nearly anything you could wish to ask a computer to do. But to gain this power you are going to need to take time to learn and read.
Understandably people don’t want to take this time. If you are not a computer enthusiast you probably don’t want to sit reading manuals and learning about the UNIX interface. Just as I wouldn’t care to take the time to become a decent auto mechanic. It would be nice to save on bills but I don’t have the interest or time. I’d rather just take my car to a mechanic when I have a problem.
In the state GNU/Linux is today people who are not computer enthusiasts and do not wish to take the time to read manuals should not be using it. In fact even if they do use it and manage to install it, etc, and take time to read/learn/configure, yet all they do is run xmms, mozilla and evolution, they are probably wasting their time. GNU/Linux is a far more powerful system than that. All those thigns can be done on the latest MS os with little to no configuration, and really, to those saying lack of stability is an issue, 2000 and XP are rock solid.
And, with Windows at least you have some reason whine. Complaining that no one has created a piece of free software that lets you configure an application is like me complaining that my auto mechanic won’t fix my car for free. Of course he would probably laugh at me and even insult me if I persistantly whined. He’d likely say “Fix it yourself!” And I say to those who complain that GNU/Linux is not ‘user-friendly’, “if you want it to be, write the software and tools to make that happen.” And this is seen as ‘elitism.’ Bullshit. It is not elitism. It is realism.
If I was shopping for a new car and someone told me I didn’t need and probably didn’t even want a Hummer, I wouldn’t consider them elitist. Just as I don’t consider someone elitist who tells someone they shouldn’t be using an operating system designed as a server or development workstation if that person is an average user.
Perhaps in a few years GNU/Linux will in fact become a viable desktop operating system for the average user. Perhaps anyone will be able to install it, install software, and use it for their daily tasks. But that is simply not the case today, and there is no reason for anyone to be apologetic for it. And there is no logic in whining that GNU/Linux doesn’t have feature ‘x’ or won’t hold my hand while doing ‘y’.
Use the right tool for the right job.
“hey buster, i can do anything you can do with Linux, compiling the OS & apps and all that CLI crap gets old after a while, “done been there and done that” now i see no problem with computer users getting a copy of Linux and installing it for checking their email, surfing the big WWW, playing games, writing documents & etc…etc…”
I’m impressed. But really, compiling apps is so passe. Use apt or something.
“yerma you need to get a life, maybe if you get away from the computer for a while, go out with some friends (if you have any) maybe you just might get lucky enough to get laid…”
Grow up.
Who overhypes it? You mean “LMAO” right?
i thought it was a good article. good job.
RE: Grow up.
NO!!!
i don’t wanna grow up…
superficial and insubstantial article… (That’s only my personal opinion.)
First to yerma:
I totally agree. I wish the tech pundits and all the distro makers would just aim their collective asses toward the corporate unix crowd where they can make money off a niche that already loves them and be done with it. The small to medium server market should be the main focus and the unix office should be the second. Do not tell me there is no market for this or unix solutions like workstation makers and the Exceed folks would go out of business. The secretaries in my office should not be allowed to stand within twenty feet of a linux box. Is it because I am an elitist who thinks they are better than these people?
Hell no. All the smark aleck elite need to spend a day and watch how these folks use their computers. They know their word processors and formatting and spreadsheet tricks that are amazing. They might ask some silly OS questions but I avoid at least a couple of them if I know they are trolling for an Office answer because it is going to be out on the bleeding nasty edge of what anyone ever thought an office suite should do. It is important not to get too arrogant. I just do not think linux is right for the regular office worker.
Now, to Cheapskate:
Why in the world would you insult someone and suggest they need to get laid (as if to say they do not often) over a difference in opinion over the use of a tool like a computer. I love computers but that is the most unnecessary juvenile nonsense I have heard in awhile.
Lighten up people.
BTW, yerma, I like compiling sometimes. :=> I like all those neato configure flags and getting my app just the way I like it. I got off the compile a night club but I have done about 6 now or so since I installed RH8 on this box.
I don’t usually have to but it is nice to have that option.
To continue same tone from my post under the “Slackware RC2 release” news..
Once again, we have these computer minion/newbies/all-of-a-sudden-the-family-experts giving a review of linux distributions. MY GOD when does it end?
Comparing Linux to Windows OS’s on ease of use and completeness is rediculous. Why does every mom/pop type or point-click type “expert” that came along last few years constantly do these comparisons? How many ‘reviews’ am I going to have to barf through where the reviewer is some kid or computer newbie and has at least ONE distro he couldn’t even figure out on how to install? Then gives up on it and writes it off as bad because he couldn’t point-click his way to a working Install.
Where are the REAL computer guys? Out doing real work. The ones making all this stuff easier for the laymen. The true “geeks”, the ones who *really* enjoy the actual workings of computers are the ones making the stuff and really using it. Really enjoy the difficulty of computer problems and solving them. Getting their hands dirty in the Command-line while also proficiently enjoying the pretty GUI. An integrated whole.
Those are the reviews I read. This mess of a ‘review’ (please!) is such a waste and complete utter garbage. And to me show how bad this OSNews site has become (definetly not alone. OsOpinion has become WAY worse). With pressures to have content daily, need fill when they can’t find real stuff to post. Where anyone submitting a half-assed attempt at a review can get famous and sound like an expert.
These same people looking for alternatives to Microsoft because they “heard” how evil MS are and they like to fit the in-crowd of herd mentality in saying “Windows Sucks”, Posting altered names like “Micro$haft”, etc. Then moving into the latest hoopla (Linux) and spouting off on OS sites regarding its shortcoming (THEIR shortcomings actually).
What are you running from? Windows is perfect for you. You aren’t going to wander off and find something comparable for what you are looking to achieve. Allready I see these types flocking to Gentoo. Bragging about their “fully optimized” system without knowing the facts or proven benchmarks. Out using their ‘fully optimized’ and recomplied ls commands. Wow, it lists the directory faster!
Why do you think Yoper is #1 at Distrowatch lately with a LIFE of 3 Months!?! Reading the website, I know exactly why! Newbie Flytrap. Genius matrketers more than pioneering new Linux Distro.
*I* would load the last released BeOS on my moms machine before any Linux distro.
But keep waiting for that RedHat 10/11…
Ugh
😉
Good Post Yerma…
All the veterans who (rather snidely) tell newbies to RTFM don’t get it. THERE IS NO MANUAL. There is currently no single document, or easily accessible group of documents, that do an adequate job of explaining the differences between Windows and Linux to a newbie.
As a Windows veteran & Linux Newbie, I can tell you that Linux is not that hard once you figure out the reasoning behind some things. If you have ever had to cope with DOS in the pre-Windows days, you know what I mean. Linux is not hard, it is merely different. it operates under a different set of assumptions than Windows does. That does not make it more complex, merely different.
The problem is that most Linux veterans don’t understand how to explain the differences to a newbie. Most experts in any field are like that. For instance, a few days ago I was browsing a user forum and found reference to the ctrl-alt-F1 and ctrl-alt-F5 commands that let you drop to the command line and back to X again without rebooting. This works in Lycoris, I still don’t know for sure if it is unique to Lycoris or if it works in any version of KDE. I had NEVER heard of it before. After I spent MONTHS READING THE F****** MANUALS and browsing forums, as well as tinkering with various distros hands on. I still had never heard of this. No documentation bothered to mention it. Everyone casually assumed that “everyone knew that” I guess.
Well, everyone doesn’t know that. In fact, very few people know “that”, whatever “that” may be. A big part of the problem is the way Linux veterans don’t stop to realize that you have to teach someone the alphabet before you can teach them to spell. Instead, Linux veterans get impatient when a newbie has trouble reading the equivalent of Shakespear when they should be practicing on the equivalent of See Spot Run.
Linux is not hard, once you figure out some of the shorthand, and get your mind around the basic assumptions. But very few people seem willing to lower themselves to using the kind of baby talk that newbies need before they can start asking the complex question.
More potential users = More newbies = More corporate support = More hardware/software support (proprietary or not) = More developers for Linux = Better OS = Better competition in a market stuff with Windows boxes = More Media Hype = More potential users = more newbies = ……….. = A BETTER OS
Now I’m sure what you guys want is a better OS. There will be those distro’s that will possibly become as easy to use as the MAC OS or the Windows to come, but I doubt the disappearance of slimmed down unbloated distro’s will take place, that will probably also be helped by all the attention the other Linux distro’s are getting.
— Of course, there’s always the BSD’s, if you ever really wanted to learn UNIX.
The Linux Documentation Project comes pretty close to something like the FreeBSD Handbook.
Pretty good if you ask me, and hey, if you purchase most mainstream distros, they include manuals a pretty decent service packages for the price.
Yerma: you say this:
“No, I do believe speechbooks for the blind should exist. There are different groups of people with different needs. People who can see need text books. People who can’t need audio books. ”
then you say this dumb sentance:
“People who just want to browse the web, do email, and listen to mp3s have Windows XP and Mac OSX. These are both fairly stable operating systems and function well.”
it seems you have a problem with some one tweaking Linux to make it a cheap easy to use platform for people. guess what…tough crap. I run Debian, I have a patched kernel, I love vi, and I spend a lot of time on the bash prompt. but I love using my OSX machine becasue it is simple. what stinks is I do my programming on Linux. well, I would love and have worked on getting debian to work better for lazy people like myself.
your ego seems to be attatched to the 1337-ness of working on Linux. so, given that Linux is getting easier to use for everyone and “Idiots” can install and run your beloved OS is a thret to you. go work on BSD, very few people use that so you can feel special, or if you realy want to feel good about yourself, run LFS or Hurd.
your ego seems to be attatched to the 1337-ness of working on Linux. so, given that Linux is getting easier to use for everyone and “Idiots” can install and run your beloved OS is a thret to you. go work on BSD, very few people use that so you can feel special, or if you realy want to feel good about yourself, run LFS or Hurd.
I think a lot of people are missing the point when it comes to yerma’s statements.
Maybe then again, I am misunderstanding his point.
In any case, think of it like this. There is no single over-whelming feature of linux, BSD or HURD even with all the simplification and user configuration tools for linux distros to make it worth using instead of Windows and/or Mac OSX.
The overwhelming reason for me to use linux is the *Nix-like OS on cheap x86 hardware. I live in a Unix world at work. I like Unix and like the filesystem, utilities and the ideas behind Unix and linux. It is not just the gnu tools or I would put with cygwin or the Korn shell on NT unix tools or MS tools for Unix folks and all those things. It is the whole package.
There is no killer app or feature that makes linux worth using instead of Windows or MacOSX for the even somewhat average user.
I disagree with the idea that good gui tools should not be bothered with in the way that yerma almost indirectly implies and I think they have their place.
However, for the vast majority of people, linux is simply not needed for the desktop.
I would like that killer desktop app to appear for the linux desktop.
To this time, it has not. I went through the days of re-training DOS folks to Windows and no corporation is going to go through that kind of hell again unless someone gives them an excellent reason beyond even saving money. There has to be something on the desktop for linux you just do not have on Windows or some other platform probably would have to be something tied to the basic Unix infrastructure.
I was thinking of something that would be nice, a dead simple application agnostic macro tool tied to a voice interface and scheduling tied to cron and at with user level security features that limit malicious use.
Why? I know I off on a tangent but the one thing that people say when I ask them what they want their computer to do that it does not do today they say:
“I want to tell my computer to do the reports and it just does them the same way I did them eight time before from downloading the raw data to importing it into the spreadsheet to running the macro I already made for formatting to sending out to the distribution list through email on every third friday of the month.”
There is currently no single document, or easily accessible group of documents, that do an adequate job of explaining the differences between Windows and Linux to a newbie.
Totally agree on this one. However I see the TLDP coming up and it seems very promising. RedHat/Mandrake also have excellent manuals. However none of them seem complete/generic. RedHat seems very specific towards it’s distros…
I was browsing a user forum and found reference to the ctrl-alt-F1 and ctrl-alt-F5 commands that let you drop to the command line and back to X again without rebooting.
This is also, ironically, very true. Laugh if u want too, when I was a n00b to linux a few months ago, I would too restart my PC when I dropped to ctrl+alt+F1 by ‘mistake’. And same with restarting services such as ftp servers, when I made a change in the config files, I never knew that ‘/etc/init.d/server restart’ would get the job done. I was told this by a friend who’s used linux for 4 years.
I mean yes, there are excellent forums out there, but that’s not a solution. There are too many forums out there…
Another problem relates to names of programs. I mean can u ever guess that gaim is a chat client, balsa/evolution are e-mail clients, totem/xine are video players, XMMS is an audio player..? I know there are some that follow decent conventions (gnome-calculator/kcalc for eg) but not all. And being a debian user, I can ‘apt-cache search mp3 | grep player’ to get results like XMMS and mpg123 however I wonder what other distros do… I know the mainstream RH/Mandrake/SuSE/etc. do a good job at this, but not all…
Those are the reviews I read. This mess of a ‘review’ (please!) is such a waste and complete utter garbage. And to me show how bad this OSNews site has become (definetly not alone. OsOpinion has become WAY worse). With pressures to have content daily, need fill when they can’t find real stuff to post. Where anyone submitting a half-assed attempt at a review can get famous and sound like an expert.
As you are so intent on getting the point that “you don’t have to use Linux”…
Dude, you don’t have to read these review’s.
“it seems you have a problem with some one tweaking Linux to make it a cheap easy to use platform for people. guess “what…tough crap. I run Debian, I have a patched kernel, I love vi, and I spend a lot of time on the bash prompt. but I love using my OSX machine becasue it is simple. what stinks is I do my programming on Linux. well, I would love and have worked on getting debian to work better for lazy people like myself.”
First I’d like to congradulate you for using the best operating system in the world.
I have absolutely no problem with someone tweaking Linux to do whatever the hell they want, if that is being a desktop OS then I thing that’s great. What I AM actually saying (ie not what you are reading into my posts) is that at this time Linux is simply not ready for the desktop, and bitching about it isn’t going to help one bit.
Hopefully one day GNU/Linux WILL be ready for the desktop. I personally would absolutely LOVE to see the world embrace free software. But as it is today there seems to be a lot of propaganda that Linux is ready for the desktop. It isn’t. This leads the problem of newsgroups and bbses getting just crap-flooded with people who refuse to read manuals or use google. And it leads to idiotic ‘reviews’ like this in which the user actually admits he didn’t complete the installation of Debian because he was TOO LAZY to read some documentation.
“your ego seems to be attatched to the 1337-ness of working on Linux. so, given that Linux is getting easier to use for everyone and “Idiots” can install and run your beloved OS is a thret to you. go work on BSD, very few people use that so you can feel special, or if you realy want to feel good about yourself, run LFS or Hurd. ”
No, really, I have no problem with people using GNU/Linux. Luckily the system is built from the ground up so that I can take any top layers off (ie gnome/kde) that I don’t need but that may be useful for a desktop system.
As far as me having a l337 ego complex..
Hey, guess what? I live in a house with 3 others. I set up a computer running GNOME2 and debian in our living room and gave all my roommate’s accounts. They use it for web browsing, email, writing term papers, etc. And they have had very few problems. I am not at all elitist. I love the fact that linux boxes can be set up which any person can use–and believe me my roommates are not techies.
Now while this works fine and well I wouldn’t expect them to be able to install new software and configure it without any problems. It took a long night of configuration to get it set up so they could use it easily.
Don’t get me wrong, I have no problem with people trying to make Linux a better desktop operating system. I do have a problem with people bitching that Linux is not in it’s current form a good desktop operating system.
I saw your comments in the Slackware thread but didn’t respond because that thread has already too far down, so I’m glad you posted here so I could address you.
Once again, we have these computer minion/newbies/all-of-a-sudden-the-family-experts giving a review of linux distributions. MY GOD when does it end?
I think you have two different groups of people to blame for this:
1) As Marcus already pointed out, the distro makers who are hyping Linux to be the killer Windows replacement. These kinds of distros (Xandros, Lindows, Lycoris, Mandrake, etc) are GEARED towards the ‘point-and-click’ crowd.
2) The cocksuckers who post to every MS-related thread (on this site and others) who’s single solution to every single Windows problem imaginable is to reformat the hard drive and install Linux. These people take it to an almost religous level and they constantly insult or belittle anyone who uses (or even mentions for that matter) Windows.
After listening to the above two groups for long enough, can you really blame people for being curious enough to try it? Of course, once most people try it, they quicky figure out that the whole thing (Linux being like Windows) is just bullshit false propoganda and go back to using Windows. Some of them find solice in Linux – most do not.
I have messed with Linux long enough to know that if you really want to be successful with it, you have to leave the ‘Windows mentality’ behind and approach it from a different angle. Of course, since there are so many ‘Linux for the masses’ zealots out there, they intentionally mislead people and don’t bother to tell them this from the beginning.
As for your insults of reviews like this, why are you so upset? If you don’t want ‘point-and-click’ users to go anywhere near Linux, you should WELCOME reviews like this – as they warn all the other ‘point-and-click- users to stay away. Do these reviews misrepresent Linux? To the Linux expert, probably. But to the average Windows user, the reviews are usually right on the money.
if you really want to be successful with it, you have to leave the ‘Windows mentality’ behind and approach it from a different angle.
Yes, thank you Darius. I love linux. It works for me but I am so tired of all the distro makers talk about it being “for the masses” now. Not yet. Closer, moving fast toward the goal but is it there. Nope not quite yet.
There are plenty of windows zealots on this same site too BTW that come into every other linux thread to start a pissing match about how XP is a godsend never fails and never has errors for them ever. (Just as many linux zealots on the other side of the coin i know.)
I am going to paint out my little guide on who should bother trying linux:
1. You hate MS the company but want everything to run just like Windows.
Nope. Stick with Windows, even a mac won’t make you happy you are stuck.
2. You hate the Windows way of doing things but you want it all to just work right out of the box.
Nope Start saving for a mac.
3. You like playing lots of computer games.
Stick with Windows nothing else has the sheer number or quality of games.
4. You hate Windows not MS you are tinkerer and you want to try out a new way of doing things.
Yes, this person might like some of the newer nicer professional distros.
5. You use Unix, program for unix, and like unix.
Yes, linux is not unix but it is the easiest to use *nix clone for x86 in terms of nice graphical tools and all that IMO. BSD users this is just my opinion.
6. You want to learn unix.
Try out linux. It is a good place to start and work into it slowly.
7. You are bored with Microsoft and/or Mac OSX and want to tinker about with a new MS and you are not afraid to put a little work into learning a brand new way of doing things.
Yes. Dual boot if you got a big hard drive. You might like linux you may not.
bah: all this carping is nonsense. Linux is for whoever wants to use it, in whatever manner they choose to use it.
I purchased the Standard (non-Crossover) version of Xandros and think it’s by *far* the best, sleekest, fastest, most stable and easiest to use Linux I’ve ever used, and I’ve used a lot of them.
I don’t personally give a flying fig if someone thinks Linux is only for those who can install and configure it using the command line, text files and man pages, screw that.
Xandros works, it just plain works. It’s easy to setup, easy to maintain, and connects me effortlessly to my windows network.
And as for the 1 – 7 points above, the hell with that. Linux is for whoever wants to use it.
> This mess of a ‘review’ (please!) is such a waste and complete utter garbage. And to me show how bad this OSNews site has become (definetly not alone. OsOpinion has become WAY worse).
I don’t think that this was a “review” in the traditional sense. It was simply an OS experience. A user, writes down his experiences on his quest to find the linux distro that would please him. Nothing more, nothing less.
well that is not what you said…perhaps you should have been more thoughtful before you wrote.
No, perhaps you need to learn to read and interpret correctly.
Here’s the simple truth about linux my friends: All people somehow related to linux, believe in the notion that “unneccessary complication” is totally “cool.” Now im not bagging linux or anything. Personally, i’ve also gone through the “distro-wash” flipping through distros like cds in a cd booklet. Face it, there’s nothing wrong with the simplicity of a Microsoft Windows-based Operating System. Dont go off and call me a “cheap newb” or wutever rite off the bat. Im not. I do a lot of experimental work with linux and windows both, as well as beta testing a lot of software. Windows is great for people that “just wanna do stuff” If you are running a server, take my advice, stay away from windows. Go with LINUX/UNIX, it’s the best. The OS is designed to be a server unit. Windows is more desktop-centric, no matter how much you try to make it server-like. Sure, Windows .NET Server 2003 looks promising, but it wont cut it. How hard is it to setup Apache HTTPd Server on Linux? Wut about all the freeware opensource FTP server software on linux? Can’t find that on windows now can you? If you are looking for a linux distro. to replace the windows OS you are using now just for the hell of it, dont even bother. I have… and it’s not pleasant. For now, Linux is purely a networking/server environment. It is complicated, and it is, at some points, unnceccesary.
PS. Open source for life, to hell with huge corporations (microsoft, im talking to you) mIRC…. mmmm, sweet!
Watch out for trojans, they’re not good, lol.
For a while now I’ve noticed more and more stuff become gtk2 in debian unstable. My desktop is blackbox but I have come to prefer gnome and gtk apps mostly because I think thin-ice looks good. The default theme for the gtk versions looks kind of crappy by comparison. It was getting time to do something about it so that when something like gvim makes the switch I don’t freak out and waste a lot of time trying to “fix” it in a panic.
I downloaded the gtk2 thinice engine but when I ran Gnumeric (the main gtk2 app I use) it looked the same. I didn’t think these things install themselves automatically. There was probably a small gnome thingy that does the theme switch automatically. I dimly remember using something like it in the past for this, but there didn’t seem to be one available for gtk2 themes.
I knew/hoped the solution would be a simple change in a config file perhaps ~/.gtkrc or ~/.gtk2rc I didn’t know if they even used the same config file. Who knows? Where would I look this up? How would I find this out? It’s such a stupid and small thing. I figured they probably didn’t use the same config file but I figured I’d just rule out this possibility for certain since I didn’t yet have something that looked obviously like a gtk2rc in my home directory.
I looked at ~/.gtkrc which had a comment about how it was automatically generated and it shouldn’t be edited by hand (I’ve never been frightened by these messages in the past. I don’t know why people bother). I don’t remember how exactly I got this but there were two non-comment lines:
include “/usr/share/themes/ThinIce/gtk/gtkrc”
include “/home/wobh/.gtkrc.mine”
I looked. in /usr/share/themes/ThinIce and saw that it had a directory called gtk-2.0/ with a file gtkrc in it (it also had a README.html which did not address this issue). Anyway, seeing this I naturally thought of duplicating the thin-ice line and pointing it to the gtkrc in gtk-2.0. Then I started up Gnumeric and it looked the same. Well the next thing I thought of was looking around for installation instructions. I poked around on Google and didn’t see anything useful. I wondered if there was some documentation installed with the gtk2 thin-ice engine about what config file to make and what it needed to say. I didn’t feel like poking through the nest of vipers that is /usr/share/doc.
So, after another google poke, I downloaded thinice source from somewhere and unpacked it. The INSTALL file talked about building it which I didn’t need to do, but the README file said I needed to put this:
gtk-theme-name = “ThinIce”
in a file called ~/.gtkrc-2.0. After I did this it worked and Gnumeric looked good again (better than ever actually).
Now, was this hard?
Obviously, this is a subjective question. For me, it wasn’t hard at all. A minor bit problem solving which, if it took even five minutes of my time I’d be surprised. But if I hadn’t had the experience with Linux that I have had, if I hadn’t been poking in config files and in source code, I don’t know how I would have figured this out. By now I sort of expect this kind of thing due to running the kind of desktop I run. If I were running a full gnome environment I would have to find the setup and configuration utility and find the theme changer and pressed the apply button.
Would that have easier?
Surprise, another subjective question. In my case I would have to have gone through the trouble of installing the gnome desktop to begin with, which would require a different window manager and then learning gnomes config utility. By themselves, these things are probably ‘easy’ but I doubt they would have been easier than the path I took to the solution for this specific problem with the knowledge I had.
Is there a better way?
Absolutely. But I don’t know what it is. I’ve made certain choices about how I work and what I like to work with. These choices make some things easy and other things not-so-easy. But this is generically true for any platform. Using a given computing environment is a skill for which there are numerous tradeoffs.
One cool thing about the whole free software movement is that it makes many different computing environments more-or-less equally available to the user to make these choices from, and it’s possible to choose them “a la carte” so to speak. I think this actually lessens the price paid for doing things in an individual way as opposed to a uniform way. Once you understand the principle (learn the config file, change it appropriately, rerun the program) the solution is the same for anything you might do, even if the specific implementation is different.
Another cool thing about free software, and particularly Debian, is that everytime I run update (once or twice a month), my system gets a little bit better. Maybe not a lot better, but a little. I’ve been using GNU/Linux since 2000 and Debian since 2001 and for as many troubles as I have had making my computer into my computer I wouldn’t go back. It’s mine!
Please allow an olde phart to inject something. When I was much younger I had some interest in electronics. But what people didn’t understand was that I was happy just putting together an occasional Knight Kit (bet nobody here has ever heard of one of those – they were from back in the days of tubes!). I didn’t understand the heavy math involved in electronics design, and didn’t really want to design anything anyway. In other words I had what you might call a passing interest.
Well, I had some friends who got involved in ham radio, and they were convinced that I should be a “ham” too. Now the way they described it, it sounded like a good thing, because you could talk to people all over the world for free. To make a long story short, I quickly found out a couple of things. One was that a great many hams were very snobbish, and actually resented anyone coming into “their” hobby unless you jumped through a bunch of silly hoops (like learning the Morse code, even if you never planned on using it. Yes, it was federal law, but it was the law for many years only because the hams wanted that law to keep out the “great unwashed”). The other thing was that many hams were very shallow – all they could talk about, or all they wanted to talk about, were their radios, their antennas, and so on.
I never did get into ham radio – I learned enough to figure out that I would not have fit in, and that I would have been bored silly by most of the things hams consider fun (if they even have a concept of fun). But I say all that to make this point – I would have never had any curiosity about ham radio in the first place if well-meaning friends didn’t keep holding it out as something I was really missing out on.
Well, today, when I use a computer, I do NOT want to “learn about computers” nor “learn an operating system” – how boring! I want to USE the computer. I want to install applications and have them run the first time. I don’t want to fire up Mozilla and see a bunch of weird looking fonts, some of which are nearly unreadable (something my well meaning friends of today don’t seem to find strange at all).
But at the same time, I would like to have an alternative to Microsoft. I don’t like the Microsoft way of doing things. I can’t afford to run out and buy a Mac, and probably wouldn’t like it either. Since Linux is the most viable alternative out there, and since certain friends have claimed it was something I should try, I tried it. I actually got it running, but as several people have pointed out, it doesn’t run as well as Windows for what I want to do.
But you know, I could overlook that – it’s gotten much better in the past year or so (since the last time I tried it). What I can’t overlook is some of the attitudes I see. Even my friends who wanted me to use Linux proceeded to chide me for actually trying a user-friendly version rather than learning to do everything on the command line, as they do. Who the heck wants to use a command line, or edit text configuration files? I gave up that nonsense when Windows 3.1 (and then Windows 95) came out – why on earth would I want to mess with command lines and config files in 2003?
And then I come on a forum like this and see the same disparaging comments about newbies, and, well, it’s like hearing the local ham radio club bash newbies 25 years ago because they were buying pre-built transceivers instead of building their own.
So my point is:
– If you have EVER recommend Linux to a non-user, as far as I am concerned you’re a hypocrite if you then turn around and complain about newbies (unless, of course, you deliberately went out of your way to tell them how difficult it is to work with compared to Windows. Rigggghhhhht, I’ll bet you did).
– It’s very likely that expectations are different now than when you started using Linux. Just like the guys who had become hams in the 40’s and 50’s thought that they were so superior to the guys who came in during the 70’s and 80’s, and didn’t build their own rigs from a magazine article in Popular Electronics, some of the long-time Linux users seem to have trouble realizing that times are changing.
– There really needs to be a forum that is newbie-friendly. I remember that in the early days of the Radio Shack TRS-80 computer, some people started acting like a computer was a mysterious thing and if you weren’t willing to write in assembly language, you shouldn’t have one (they even faulted Radio Shack for including a BASIC interpreter). Then along came a magazine called 80 Microcomputing, which was written for the average user, including the Newbie, and suddenly the TRS-80 became much more usable. Well today, I think we need a web site and forum targeted specifically to the newbie and non-geek. Maybe it would focus on distributions like Lindows and Lycoris and Xandros, but above all it would not allow the sort of bashing that’s been going on in this thread and elsewhere on the ‘net.
(And if such a forum does exist, it needs to be better promoted, including by the geeks – after all, if you blow a gasket when a newbie asks a question, why not point them to someplace where they won’t be bugging you, so you can get back to spending your Saturday nights pouring over source code?)
Sorry, but I see some of the same arrogance among certain Linux geeks as I used to see among certain amateur radio operators. In both cases, it seems that the longer someone is involved, the more likely they seem to be to look down their noses at others. And it’s not pretty.
It’s unfortunate that you take the attitude “Linux should be difficult.” There is a group like this (albeit, I believe, a minority) that wants Linux to remain as difficult/involved as possible so that Linux can remain their exclusive club. Fact is, though, that Linux can be constructed to be intuitive, user-friendly, and–yes–simple to use and still be extremely configurable via the c line. Distros such as Mandrake are attempting to combine the best of both worlds. There is also the fact that, like it or not, Linux is fragmenting into distros for techies and distros for everyday users.
I use Linux for my work, and I know how to use it. But ther’s nothing wrong with starting it up, configuring a few things, and just working. No constant tweaking, no nothing. And why use Linux rather than OSX or XP? CHEAP!!!
Sorry, Yerpa–you don’t get to decide who uses what.
Oops–“Yerma,” not “Yerpa.” Typo.
“…Linux is simply not ready for the desktop, and bitching about it isn’t going to help one bit. ”
Actually, the author wasn’t bitching. Eugenia’s right: he was just sharing his experiences. He wasn’t even complaining about the distros he couldn’t get up and running; he simply passed on and said he’d come back to them some day. One thing he kept saying, over and over, is that so-and-so didn’t work for him, and so-and-so didn’t please him. He wasn’t saying they sucked.
And yes, bitching does work, especially in the open-source community. App developers need to understand what people want when they develop an app. I have a friend who’s the director of marketing at a software company that designs business apps, and I’ve prodded them into investigating developing native versions for Linux. What they kept asking is “what does the Linux-using business community want,” as if it were different from the Windows-using community. (It isn’t in my experience, but it was good of them to ask.) It works the same for, say FimlGimp (now called something else, but I forget what): they need to know what their target users want. Every app, every GUI, every OS whose developers actually want their products to be used need to know what the community wants…and what the community is having the most problems with. Like it or not, Linux is becoming more and more mainstream, so those who are not tech savvy will rule the roost.
Maybe not all distributions are for the “average Joe”, but it not so dificult to do. Even an idiot like me can develop a Linux distribution easier than Windows.
My personal project:
http://www.guiadohardware.net/linux/kurumin/
(based on Knoppix)
Some comparations:
– Instalation:
Windows: Almost an hour to install, almost a day to install and configure all your applications
Kurumin: 1 minute to boot, 4 minutes to install.
– To install more programs:
Windows: Go to shop, but desired app, read the manual, install. Search on google how to uninstall all the spywares and adds.
Kurumin: Just click on the icon of the desired program and he do the rest for you.
– Hardware configuration
Windows: Need install drivers.
Kurumin: Just boot the CD.
– To watch a divx movie:
Windows: Ask a friend, download some program, download another program, uninstall the first program that dont work, download another program, configure evething.
Kurumin: Open Konqueror, click on the movie file.
– To Edit Photos:
Windows: Buy Photoshop, install Photoshop, read some book.
Kurumin: Install The Gimp, read the manual.
And so on… Windows is more dificult to a new user. Average Joe use Windows because someone do the instalation and configuration for him.
notice that each time marcus set aside a distro due to complications, he appended the idea that he was planning on trying it again later after more of his learning experience?
I am of the opinion that he is trying to better the view of linux to the entire computer user base. It’s not his fault that problems pop up that can’t be solved by the clicking of an option or a VERY SIMPLE google search. That is how easy it should be if the distributions were as easy as each company claims. All he can do is let the people know what works and what doesn’t work. It’s easier to let the public know of the bugs, because a larger group in the know is more apt to get the coder’s attention.
Also, yarma, if you just insult every aspect of the review, and try to insult the intelligence of the reviewer, what does that accomplish? <flamebait>I mean really, a certain picture comes to mind involving special olympics that I’m sure you have been presented with many times with that attitude </flamebait> How about do like most of the other commentors do and offer assistance to the problem? that would raise awareness to quick fixes and little tips that can make the user experience that much easier. Unless that’s where you get off is trying to prove that you are more 1337 than everyone else. If that’s what floats your boat and finds your lost remote, more power to you. Just trying to figure out where you’re coming from. Thank you for your time YET again
Tré Altrix
I wasn’t trying to put down the Linux Documentation Project. There is a lot of excellent information there. The problem is finding it. Especially for a newbie who just wants to uncover the answer to a simple question regarding hardware setup.
For a while I was trying very hard to get a USB networking cable working in Linux. I had been using it in Windows with no problems, and I thought I would just use the same cable in Linux. No luck. I tried everything I could think of, read every manual from Mandrake, RedHat and Lycoris (and yes, I do purchase my distros. I can’t program, but I can support the community with my cash).
I looked on the Linux Documentatin Project and Yippee!, there was a How-To on configuring such a USB networking setup. Problem. I coldn’t understand the explanation. The How-To was well written, clear and explicit. But it contained a long list of assumptions about things the reader was already expected to know. I did not know them.
Eventually I figured it out, but there was no way I could have simply RTFM. The FM does not exist for what I needed. You know what I finally discovered? I discovered that kernel support for my particular brand of cable was not ready for prime time yet. After all that searching and all that “RTFM YOU WORTHLESS IGNORANT NEWB!” abuse that I put up with, I found out finally that Linux does not support the hardware I wanted to use.
There is nothing wrong with the Linux Documentation Project, as far as it goes. It just doesn’t go very far when it comes to newbies. We need a first grade picture book, not an Almanac.
I think most of you are missing the whole point of Linux – that it’s free, cost you $0, nada, zip, zilch -… except for your time of course but that’s another issue.
Windows XP and Mac OS X costs money. Last time I checked, XP home ~$100, XP Professional ~$200, Mac OS X ~$100 – OS X probably more than the ticketed price because you gotta buy the hardware with it and it ain’t cheap.
The thing is I like XP and I love OS X even more. But when you are a student or just plain don’t have money – I’m employed now btw
-, how are you going to get XP or OS X? – don’t tell me, really. Linux is a FREE alternative OS. There is a price that comes with this FREE OS (Is anything really free?) and that is it ain’t “easy” enough for the regular joe to use at the level of say XP or OS X. So, if you got money and are willing to spend the dough, by all means use XP or OS X. But if you are strapped for money but have time on your side, try Linux.
The whole point of Linux as I see it is that it keeps the balance of OS war somewhat. Without Linux, God knows how much more Windows would cost! And without Linux on the desktop – however “ineffective or irrelevant” it is right now -, say if Linux pulled out of the desktop market completely, then again Windows on the desktop would rule and cost you big bucks. Another thing, aside from the money issue, Linux drives Microsoft and other OS makers to keep innovating – loosely used for MS, and make their product better than the FREE solution(I guess I came back to money after all, haha). That’s good for all of us in the end.
So, in conclusion, stop flaming each other and let people who are going to use Windows use Windows and let people who are willing to spend the time to use Linux use Linux, no matter how much they “bitch” about it, improving Linux on the desktop or anywhere, is good for the users like you and me.
And please, stop this silliness about “anything you can do I can do better”. Because I can do better than all o’ you
muhahaha
/TCO doesn’t factor in usability, it only cares about the bottom line. //
It doesn’t? Geez .. those idiot profs at DePaul University’s MBA program should re-think their theories.
Either that, or you’re a moron.
Carlos:
I looked at your project as best I could follow it, and it sounds interesting. Is their an English version available as yet?
“I think most of you are missing the whole point of Linux – that it’s free, cost you $0, nada, zip, zilch -… except for your time of course but that’s another issue.”
No, not all Linux is free. Lots of distros charge or offer a for-money version. They also offer tech support for purchase. They also have “clubs” and whatnot you can join…for a charge. They also ask for financial support. The point is, so many distros are taking in money and paying their developers. Therefore, the product we get should be on par with other professionally developed products. (And yes, they’re getting there.)
umm what ever you say but you did not say that at the begining of this issue and halfway through you sofened your tone.
By the way, forgot to add this: Carlos, your distro looks very cool. My Portuguese isn’t very good at all, so I couldn’t follow very well, but what I could understand sounded cool. Will you be releasing an English version? Perhaps I’ll try it if you do. Thanks!
Hi Walt, you just need to change the language settings and keyboard layout on KDE Control Center, this will change all programs. Some menus will still in Portuguese, but I hope this will not be a problem.
Regards.
Have you seen jamd?
Seems to have many of the items you are looking for.
Hmm, nice Marcus also mentioned Morphix, too bad he downloaded the imho least usable iso (the gamemodule), but then again i’m only addicted to frozen-bubble :o)
[dirty rotten morphix plug]
Anyway, besides having a game module morphix also has a number of more useful modules, all with everything (or at least a subset of the normal stuff) a user would need. Like Marcus said: it does what it is made for.
– Morphix Light, a 180mb iso, icewm based using the very nice TrueCurve theme. It’s a relativly small download, and provides a decent install for any system
– Morphix Heavy, a 420mb iso, gnome2.2 based. Includes everything except the kitchen sink, find it a nice simple desktop for new users, but this is mho
– Morphix KDE, a 300mb iso, kde3.1 based. Includes the kitchen sink, just leaves out openoffice.
The new release 0.3-3 (since yesterday) includes XFree 4.3.0, more bugfixes and a couple extra apps. Check the changelog for more info :o)
[/plug]
Now about the article: Linux “On the desktop for everyone” isn’t there yet, by a long shot. It’s slowly moving forward, but there is more than enough work to do before it’s a serious replacement for win32. Just hope us knoppix-derivatives (like kurumin! Hey Carlos! :o) can make a difference in the long run. And along the way, we’ll just have fun building our own distros and cramming them with useless features for everyone to troll against :o)
Its easy to build a distribution around Knoppix because you alread have a package system (apt), hardware detection and a installer (knx-hdinstall).
You can concentrate in adding features. Many of the “Knoppix based distros” are becoming more newbie friendly than estabilished distros like Red Hat, Mandrake etc. I see a great future for Linux on the desktops.
For example, I’m developing Kurumin for about 6 weeks and alread have a very usable desktop. You can install new apps and plug-ins like flash with just one click, like on lindows. You have softmodems drivers (just ONE click too), a friendly installer (my “hacked” knx-hdinstall), you have automatic access to your Windows partition, etc.
You alread have the ingredients, just need to do the cake.
If you want a Debian system without the hassle of the
Debian installer, try Knoppix. This runs from a CD and
will only touch the disk to use a swap partition unless
you tell it to. It is very good at detecting hardware.
It is a complete system on a CD, complete with Open Office
and KDE.
You can also ask it to install itself on your hard disk
once you have decided to use it.
>I looked on the Linux Documentatin Project and Yippee!,
>there was a How-To on configuring such a USB networking
>setup. Problem. I coldn’t understand the explanation. The
>How-To was well written, clear and explicit. But it
>contained a long list of assumptions about things the
>reader was already expected to know. I did not know them.
>Eventually I figured it out, …
It sounds like what is needed is a place for people to easily write about their specific experiences. A HOWTO is good for generic hardware installation info, but newbies would probably much rather see that John Doe actually got his USB adapter on X distribution by modifying Y config file and running Z program than an reading an explanation of how or why it *should* work. Barry’s comment that he did figure it out is just that much more frustrating because you know that *someone* knows what you’re looking for but that TLDP probably doesn’t have the answer you’re looking for (although “USB network setup” is a very un-specific problem).
An example in this thread of what I’m talking about was the one about getting the ThinIce theme to work in gtk2. He listed what he tried that was wrong and what his final solution was; it could be extremely useful to have people submit reports like this that could be sorted into categories of “answers” (as opposed to longer HOWTOs).
If I had that particular problem I might click something like:
Using Debian -> gtk2 problem -> theme problem
or in Barry’s case:
USB -> Network -> Using X distribution
(the categories could distribute differently depending on where you started).
If there’s something like this already then I haven’t heard about it. Getting newbie “guides” isn’t the idea here; it would be getting short specific methods submitted by newbies AND experienced users, on a large scale (hence the need for ease of submission), sorted by people who have good knowledge of (at least) the section they are working with.
I don’t understand why so many people are upset with companies that strive to make linux a user friendly operating system. I also don’t understand why so many people think that the only reason to use linux is if you want to devote so much time to studying about unix and bsd. Although myself I am very interested in these things and have been spending my share of time studying up of bsd and unix. I am along ways from being a bsd or unix user but find it quite fascinating. But I disagree with the idea that linux is only good for the power user. I think linux is a great operating system for the average user as well. The type that use there computer to email, instant message, file sharing, web browsing and playing mp3’s. It has the features that enable it’s users to do these things easily. There is a reason for the average user like myself to be using linux. That is because it provides much better reliability then windows and web browsing is alot faster with linux as well. It doesn’t crash on a weekly basis like just about any heavily used windows system. I love my linux system it has saved me so much time that would have been spent running restore on a windows system or reinstalling windows besides the fact that it is faster. So why is everyone seem to be so upset with companies that make user friendly versions of linux like mandrake, redhat and lindows. What’s wrong with the average person or someone who is new to computers being able to use an operating system that provides speed and reliability. Personally I am glad that there are companies that make linux a user friendly system, even though I would like to also be able to use some of the more complex systems like bsd. But I would really like to see the success of linux continue, making it’s way to desktop users and giving microsoft a run for their money.
Have you ever tried gentoo?
I have heard mostly good things, at least in the areas regarding speed of execution, once its installed, that is.
Havent tried it myself though.
Well I am sure that there are lots of other powerful and user friendly linux distros. The one’s I listed were just what was off the top of my head when I was writing the message. I haven’t tried gentoo but I have heard alot of good things about it. Yoper linux also sounded good to me. But the only free download I seen of it was for the beta version and they talked on their site like you have to buy the finished versions. So I still kind of stick with redhat and mandrake since they provide free downloads of their product.
I read your articles a long time ago, and, if I’m not wrong you haven’t tried Slackware. Got Slack?? Well, I guess Slackware is the most stable, secure and Linux pure or all Linuces. There are little news about Slackware fixes or something. You’ll see more “bad” news about Debian and Red Hat.
Give it a try!! It’s worth.
n0dez
==
http://www.n0dez.com
n0dez – why then, is your site hosted in a Red Hat server? I’m not trying to be anal… just wondering.
Yes, my site – http://www.n0dez.com/ – is not hosted on my own servers. I have been looking for a cheap hosting provider with Slackware and I didn’t find anything
However, I’m not satisfied with WebHost**.com’s service. They’re a reseller company and their “own” servers are very slow (they even resell their own webspace they got from a reseller acount at burst.net).
I’ve also noticed myself from my own experience that Slack is the fastest (even more faster than Red Hat and Debian. Loads the needed stuff only -nothing else-).
n)0|d|e/z
What I dislike is …
to see “OS training courses: Win98,WinME and Win2k”
to see all (3 or 4 in total) books about Slackware and Debian outdated.
About my hosting provider: Yeah, I know they’re running Red Hat. But I prefer Red Hat to Windoze. Red Hat is 1,000 times more secure and stable than Windoze, isn’t it?
n0dez