With all the hype surrounding the release of RedHat 8.0, I was eager to try it myself. I was particularly interested to see whether this really would be the release that the average user could install and run on a home pc. Regrettably, I don’t believe it is. Reading the recent comments made by RedHat developer Havoc Pennington in reply to the question about the “Average Joe User” only confirmed my belief.
Pennington states that “we should concentrate our efforts on desktop users
that have a system administrator to help them out and configure their machine.”
I agree with Pennington; RedHat Linux still isn’t ready to be installed, let
alone used daily, by the average pc user. There are several points during
the installation that are either needlessly complicated, or require knowledge
beyond what can reasonably be expected of the average user. Following
are some notes from my recent installation.
Network Configuration The average pc these days comes with a network
adapter, and Linux is quite good about detecting these devices. But the average
pc user, outside of an office environment, has only one possible use for this
adapter: a broadband internet connnection. The average user doesn’t have
a home lan and doesn’t care about how the internet works: he just wants to
browse and get email. Consequently, configuring the network interface under
the current system is too much to expect.
What can be done about it? I would suggest a wizard-style network setup,
similar to Windows XP, that prompts the user about their networking needs.
The first step would be to identify whether the user has a lan connection.
If so, then the user can either configure the interface or get help from whoever
runs the lan. The next step would be to identify whether the user has a broadband
internet connection. If so, then RedHat should certainly explore the possibility
of compiling a list of the most widely used broadband providers and the settings
they use for the network interface. I use AT&T, and the settings are
very simple, if you know where to put them–the average user doesn’t know.
Firewall Configuration These days, with broadband connections becoming
more widespread, this is a crucial component for any pc. The problem I found
with setting it up is that the help screeens are confusing.
The default selections are Medium Security and Customize. The help screens
go into some detail about low ports being blocked, Active FTP, IRC DCC file
transfers, DNS replies, NIS, LDAP, etc. As my fiance would say, “don’t care,
don’t care, dont care–I just want to get my email and go on the internet.”
One way out of this mess would be to put off this step of the configuration
until after the user has chosen the basic type of installation and the type
of internet connection. For a Personal Desktop installation with a broadband
connection, the firewall settings should be straightforward. Better yet would
be a firewall with the sort of options provided by Zonealarm where the user
is prompted whether to allow certain applications to access the internet,
whether to allow cookies to be accepted, whether to block ads, etc.
Time Zone Why is RedHat still using this archaic method of setting
the time? Get rid of the UTC Offset and just make it simple: pick your time
zone, set the time, and check a box if you want the computer to adjust for
daylight savings time. Microsoft seems to do this quite nicely, why can’t
RedHat? And get rid of the timeserver option; it just adds to the confusion.
The only people who care about this are the true geeks among us who will configure
this after the installation.
And since we are on the Time Zone issue, after the first login there is
an initial setup. At one point, there is a prompt to set the time and the
date. Why do I have to do this again?
Account Configuration The manual is much better than the online
help. There is some good discussion of administrator privileges and the su
command, although I don’t know why su even needs to be mentioned.
What is lacking is some guidance on usernames. Are they case sensitive?
Are spaces allowed, as they are in Windows 2000/XP? Is there a minimum length?
Some examples would also be useful.
Installing Packages 501 packages?! What on earth for? I suppose
it probably doesn’t matter as far as ease of installation goes for the average
user. But 501 packages is just boated.
X Configuration My graphics card was correctly identified, but the
memory amount was not. I know what it is, but I’m not the average user. My
monitor was also not identified, but it was in the list of monitors.
General Remarks Unlike a Windows install, RedHat provides some very
useful options, particularly in the packages that get installed. I’m referring
to the selection of the type of system being built: Personal Desktop, Workstation,
Server, etc. Moving this choice nearer to the beginning of the install process
would greatly simplify the rest of the installation.
Linux has certainly come a long way since the early days of Slackware.
Unfortunately, it still isn’t ready for the desktop of the average user,
as long as the average user must install it from scratch.
About The Author:
Bradley Owen is a Network Administrator with an academic background in Philosophy. He’s been interested in computers ever since he bought a mail order Sinclair ZX-81 advertised in Popular Mechanics. When he is not in front of the computer, he’s cooking and perfecting his espresso technique.
I *HATE* the time configuration part – why can’t I just pick a time zone? Why dozens on dozens of freaking cities? Thats…well, for lack of a better word – retarded! Still, it *is* improving…
I went to install it on my laptop. I could not get X to work correctly, I will try again though now that I found out that my S3 Twister GFX card is realy a savage 4 pro, but I am not holding out…..
I am doing on VMware owever, any one know if that might have been the problem?
I probably don’t care what Havoc says, but Red Hat is made for the corporate market. That means the entire distribution is made for them. Not for the consumer. While RH isn’t blocking consumers using their distro, well, it is a fact they aren’t after this envoriment. What they are after, BTW, is niches in the corporate market like call centers.
I have yet to meet *one* “average joe” that can install any form of Windows, including XP. They all ask for help from someone who isn’t an “average joe”. Btw, I think it’s pretty good it installs a whole bunch of programs by default. I hate to constantly install programs and drivers after installing an OS. It’s nice it’s done all in once.
I would have to say I disagree with this whole article. First, the average user doesn’t install an operating system. An operating comes installed on the computer they buy. If you’ve every installed Windows… it’s not one click either. I would say it’s just a bit easier than Red Hat 8.0.
Second, in a lot of respects I think that the Red Hat install is easier. For example, suppose you buy a new computer and for some reason it doesn’t have an operating system. This new computer probably doesn’t have video drivers on the Windows install CD. Therefore, unless the user wants to always run at 640×480, he has to know the type of video card and download drivers. Compare to Red Hat, where every driver comes on the CD (same issue with new cards applies, but Red Hat seems to make more frequent releases) and a lot are auto detected (atleast on the 3 machines I’ve tested with).
Finally, my personal opinion. I don’t want an operating system that my mother could install (she can’t install Mac OS, Windows, or Linux). If she could install the operating, it would probably make stupid choices that *I* would hate and that would waste *my* time. I’d rather install an operating system for her.
Good article, I completely agree with the suggestions. However, I too have yet to meet an average joe who can install and configure their windows computer. Average Joe is just too dumb and lazy. Really, you have no clue who average Joe is until you have worked as tech support, or supported users in an office environment. Like our receptionist, who panicked this morning because, her XP machine froze on the accounting program!
> I agree with Pennington; RedHat Linux still isn’t
> ready to be installed, let alone used daily,
> by the average pc user
Actually, I thought Pennington was talking crap when he said that. He didn’t give any convincing reason. In fact, I think his views are merely a paraphrase of of the official Redhat position. Does Redhat understand the desktop? In my opinion, no, they really don’t.
While I respect their decision to focus on business, you must not forget it was the same RedHat who officially gave up on the desktop just a year ago! Redhat declared that Linux on the desktop was dead. They were widely quoted by the naysayers. But the smaller companies continued doing wonderful things on the desktop, which is probably why Redhat got wiser all of a sudden.
Mayb e they are just scared of being crushed by MS.
The Redhat installer is really nice, better than the Windows installer IMHO.
At least it doesn’t start off with that horrible blue screen you always get with Windows.
Do not use any of the standard X servers — instructions are to ignore X configuration, and then to install VMWare tools.
The VMWare 3.x manual (available for d/l on the website) offers much more instruction in this regard.
As for the ‘not ready for joe user’ part, I’ll throw in two cents: why the choice of Grub/LILO in the main install? Point users at Grub, and stick the choice for an optional bootloader in the ‘advanced’ section. Only common sense…
I have a significantly larger rant about various less-than-standard configs like my own involving booting Linux off of IDE HDs strung out on inherently non-bootable PCI IDE cards, but I’m not sure how helpful telling the user they need to ‘dd if=/dev/hde1 of=bootsect.lnx bs=512 count=1’, mount a floppy, copy the file over (all of this requiring Ctrl-Alt-Fxing out of the nice happy GUI), reboot, go into Windows, copy the boot sector into c:, edit boot.ini (correctly), and then reboot again. Oh, and manually hdparm the HDs. And a pony too.
If RedHat could make the likes of what I’ve described above one-click easy, (obviously not just this one thing…) methinks they’d be much, much closer to easy adoption.
Of course, in all fairness, BlueCurve is purty. Very, very purty. There’s still gobs of menus in disparate apps (including Moz) that don’t follow the rest of the system menus when it comes to size, font, etc., but most of it is very good and promising. Truth be told, I was so enamoured with Psyche that I actually ran RH8 with Gnome for a few days. Back to my speedier BlackBox under Debian Woody now, but it was fun for a while.
All these Linux reviews focus on the initial installation, but that has never been a problem for me. My biggest gripe is adding additional software from the net – thats where Linux falls in a heap due to dependancy hell.
Contrary to BeBits.
DEVICES: no standard way to configure or troubleshoot devices. Each device -disk, network card, modem, etc has its own tool more or less. In Windows, you know to go to device manager, whether you are dealing with a modem, video card, cdrom or whatever.
NETWORKING: you are using DHCP and your cable is not attached while redhat is booting. You will have to restart the network when you re-attach the cable. Whereas in Xp, your network comes right back once you attach the cable!! Sweet! Neat!
MOZILLA: Xfonted mozilla is incredbile, and the speed and stability is great thesedays. But the general Mozilla UI is still ugly when compared to Internet Explorer. In XP, web forms are neatly and pleasantly displayed, for example. In Mozilla they are thick and ugly. Whoever did the Redhat Mozilla icon should do same for the UI
EVOLUTION: still looks rough. Needs a lot of font and UI polish. People spend most of their on browsers and mail programs, so getting these two right is important.
>Installing Packages 501 packages?! What on earth for? I >suppose it probably doesn’t matter as far as ease of >installation goes for the average user. But 501 packages is >just boated.
Thats a funny perspective. Just how many packages should it be? Maybe we should have a survey on how many packages make a good OS.
I assume that “boated” means bloated. What makes you think that an OS that has all the software that comes on those first 3 disks of RH8 constitutes bloat? It may not be lean and mean, but what mainstream OS is nowadays that includes more than a calculator with the default install?
I like this site very much, but it amazes me sometimes what gets posted on the front page…..
Integrating a linux machine into a windows network should be made to be very simple. In fact, it should be extremely dumbed down. So should sharing files. Windows is the boss, so working well in a Windows environment is going to be pretty important if linux wants to succeed on the business desktop. Doing that will also help to woo that MCSE admin
I just installed Red Hat 8, and it was probably the easiest install I’ve ever done. I’ve never install Windows XP, but it was easier than any version before it.
I had to set up the partitions and bootloader, only because of dual boot. After that it was choosing packages and clicking “next” a bunch of times. All the hardware was detected properly, network settings were good. Yes, you have to choose a timezone. Ever install windows? Have to do it there too.
Was it 501 packages for the default istall? That may be alot, but are they useful packages? I added some other stuff, so I don’t know what is in the default.
As stated by Bob, most people don’t install Windows (or any other operating system). The reason installation is an issue is that people actually have to install Linux (or have someone do it for them) if they want to use it.
The desktop looks good. I’m using KDE right now. I did have to make some changes to get it the way I wanted it. The default behavior acted alot like windows. this is good for people wanting to switch.
This is my experience so far, and it looks like they’ve done a good job putting this version together.
“This new computer probably doesn’t have video drivers on the Windows install CD. Therefore, unless the user wants to always run at 640×480, he has to know the type of video card and download drivers.”
I’m sorry your wrong. Windows comes with drivers. When I last did a clean install on this pc not only did 2k recognize the card and install a decent drive (all features supported, just not as fast as the latest driver) so did 98. They both also had drivers for my sound card (no linux distro does), monitor, ethernet, modem, etc. Unless you’re using a very specialized card or a card thats newer then the windows version you’re installing you shouldn’t have a problem.
btw my one gripe with evolution is that while its supposed to be an outlook knockoff (face it it is a knockoff, a good one but still a knockoff) it can’t import the data directly. I have to export the files as csv in order to import them. I know its an issue of a proprietary file but damn its only one file (.pst) not the myriad they have to worry about with the rest of office.
Hard drives are big nowadays. Who cares if a lot of programs get installed. Real bloat is when software comes with extra features that must be RUN in order to run the software, such as in MS Office.
Extra programs that you don’t have to run? Who cares? I’d rather have them around for when I might need them (and if they’re part of a default install, then they’re probably going to be pretty useful things), particularly if I’m an “average Joe” with minimal experience installing software.
the reason that the redhat install HAS to be easier than windows, is that people will have to install it. windows could have NO installer, just some bizarre way to get it on the system, and the only people it would piss off would be OEM’s. just try to get an OEM to install redhat for an end user.
I think that Avery Fay hits the nail right on the head:
First, the average user doesn’t install an operating system. An operating comes installed on the computer they buy. If you’ve every installed Windows… it’s not one click either.
Absolutely correct. Having just gone through WinXP, Win2K, and WinXP Upgrade installation processes (don’t ask!) I have to say that Red Hat’s installer is not any more/less difficult than Microsoft’s. There are still some things that are probably above the level of the average PC user, but remember that according to HP’s comments, Red Hat is aiming for corporate desktops.
Finally, I think this article is geared a bit too much at picking on Red Hat. I’ve used just about all the OS installers there are, and compared to *comperable* software, it beats the pants off of Solaris and HP-UX and holds its own (although it’s my personal favorite) to all the other Linux distros. Whether it’s better than Microsoft’s installer is moot, because as it’s been said: most users don’t install an OS.
Finally, for the market Red Hat has stated they’re aiming for, the installer is getting just about perfect (IMO).
Cheers,
Ken
I was a bit ticked at the whole rant against 500-odd packages that Red Hat installs. Calling 501 packages “bloated” is a bit inflamatory, as I’m sure that most, if not all, other distros would require in the neighborhood of the same number of packages to be installed for *comperable functionality*. Furthermore, we don’t have *any* sort of metric to compare this to WRT Windows, as the partitioning of software in Microsoft’s installation is not readily apparent, if it exists at all.
Cheers,
Ken
Actually, linux_baby, when they said there wasn’t a future for Linux on the desktop, they meant that. And no, the smaller companies didn’t change their minds. What changed it is that Red Hat needs to expand its niches. Plus, the added fact of the new licensing model by Microsoft, it makes it a good decission.
MS Office may be bloat to you, but it isn’t for me. The same way some fvwm jukies would think GNOME is bloat, yet KDE users might see it as underfeatured.
My point was that bloat (whether or not MS Office is actually bloated) should refer to the overuse of resources less abundant than hard drive space.
Gee 501 packages darn .. If you have packages you dont want you can pick individual packages and the install has auto dependance resolution .. At least they got one thing right Gnome2 no longer has Evolution as a dependance so I put my favorite Sylpheed in its place it too was on the cds .. As far as an average Joe installing any OS I don’t hink so not even in the Windows arena otherwise all the Install techs at the computer stores will be out of business. And you are right it needs to be easy only because no large chain store or OEM usually will install it..
As I wrote in my article, I know Red Hat is aiming for the corporate market but, what amazed me was how close they have come to a desktop in making this distribution. Tweak some thing as suggested in the article and, really, it’s there.
The point about Joe User not installing OSes cannot be overstated. LOL, my friends, neighbors and relatives drive me insane. Most of them sign up for AOL and that’s all they use – no word processing, nothing. I have people who I’ve gone over things with over and over again and they still don’t get it. Some still do not understand how to connect to the net if their AOL program doesn’t automatically start the dial-up process. I had to rush over to a neighbor’s house the other night because a kid had to print something out for school and, it turned out, somehow managed to take the printer offline. Joe User, unfortunately, is totally clueless.
Anyway, my conclusion is that if Joe User bought a computer with Red Hat 8…well, let’s say Red Hat 9…I don’t think there would be a great difference than with XP Home. If they had to re-install, they would need help.
I’m not trying to start anything here, ths is just a personal opinion. I think the Mac is still the best computer for Joe User. You have to pay, of course, but if you get an iMac and an iPod, you get AppleWorks, iTunes, iPhoto, iMovie, iDVD, iCal, iSync, Backup, Virex. an iDisk, Homepage etc. (well, if you sign up for .Mac (more money spent). But, the average users get their money out of it because of those things, I think.
He’s been interested in computers ever since he bought a mail order Sinclair ZX-81 advertised in Popular Mechanics
I just had to quote that. Anyone who has own a ZX-81 is a good person. In fact, I’ve still got mine in the cupboard!
The biggest problem with the Desktop Linux “goal,” is that people keep moving the goalposts!
To some people, “Desktop Linux” is something that can be used for productivity in the enterprise. As such, it would be installed and configured according to company requirements and systems. Therefore, the “Sys Admin” component comes in, in regards to configuration. It only has to be easy to use.
To others, “Desktop Linux” is something that “Joe Public” who doesn’t know what the spacebar is, can install, configure and manipulate. It needs to be games-ready, DVD-ready, and do all of the installation itself at the expense of flexibility.
(Yes, it would be at the expense of flexibility. The people who cry out that it should “all be done for them” because they don’t want to click a mouse button or two, also seem to complain if they don’t like the personal taste of the person who designed the “do it for me” theme. Until they implement a telepathic “I know what you want” interface, you can’t have your cake and eat it too!)
Really, what is “Desktop Linux?” Both opinions are, at first glance, quite valid. Both require completely different solutions.
“RedHat Desktop” seems to be more of the former; an enterprise-ready (or at least, aiming) distribution.
If both demands were met in the one distribution, you’d need a DVD to house it. And then, the “do it for me” people will be annoyed at having to select “Enterprise” or “Home use” because it involves making a choice.
peepee, MS Word with five 10 page documents open (not identical documents) takes 12MB of RAM on Win2k. KWord with identical document content takes 8MB. For me: big difference (it is MS Word 2002, BTW, Word 2000, IIRC, uses more memory).
RH8 is the first unmodified distribution of 2.4.X linux to work on my Sony Vaio PCG-U1 laptop. Of course, this is obviously due to the heavily modified kernel and patches that fixed an IDE error in the kernel — not sure why it hasn’t been admitted into the mainstreem kernel …
I feel that it is time to develop a standard interface for *graphical* device configuration in Linux environments. It sould be designed so that GTK/Qt or whatever tk can be used to design a ‘property page’ (to use the M$ buzzword). Then kcontrol, drakconf or whatever application can host a number of these configuration plug-ins.
I *HATE* the time configuration part – why can’t I just pick a time zone? Why dozens on dozens of freaking cities?
Use the cute worldmap to select your city, or at least to scroll the list to your general area. The map will also zoom in to make more precise selection easier. Should be a 3 second task.
-fooks
Every time I install RH I am more and more dissapointed… I used to love RH and hate Suse because of the abysmal Yast. From Suse 7.3 and beyond everything has become better and better. I mean which other distro gives you Jbuilder, Kylix, 15 different window managers, has evey possible little program
available.
The only shining exception is xine, which is not included at all.
It has the best LVM setup around and Yast2 just works. I use it as my standard company desktop, server and workstation.
Every other distro I have used , except debian, is somehow limited. RH has really bad admin tools and too few programs, crux and gentoo are too time consuming to set up, lucoris is too desktop, slackware is too oldish
, mandrake is too inconsistent to be usefull for the compay desktop etc.
Suse has 95% of the abilities of any Windows OS… the only thing really missing is real hardware autodetection..
Please try Suse and compare it to RH or MDK.
Integrating a linux machine into a windows network should be made to be very simple. In fact, it should be extremely dumbed down. So should sharing files.
For the business market?
Not to my way of thinking.
In medium to large businesses, they don’t want the users playing with that sorta stuff.
We’re a Novell shop mostly, and when users login, they automatically have a whole set of drives mapped for them according to the department that they work in.
No one wants the users to be able to share their harddrives more easily, because it just creates support head-aches.
We have shared drives if they want to share data they should put it there, where we have a good backup plan, and service levels.
There’s nothing worse than: We were all putting our accounting data on John’s PC, but his PC won’t startup today, so we’ve got nothing to do.
Windows is the boss, so working well in a Windows environment is going to be pretty important if linux wants to succeed on the business desktop.
Yes, but that means that the sysadmins need to be able to configure the users’ PCs to connect to the standard set of file/print servers, etc.
I don’t think it needs to be easy for Joe User to do that. All he needs to be able to do is work on the PC once it is setup.
peepee, MS Word with five 10 page documents open (not identical documents) takes 12MB of RAM on Win2k. KWord with identical document content takes 8MB. For me: big difference (it is MS Word 2002, BTW, Word 2000, IIRC, uses more memory).
Word 2000 probably uses more user space ‘memory’ because it’s isn’t as intergrated into the windows kernal as 2002 is
I couldn’t agree more. I don’t know a single non-techie who has ever installed any operating system. It is really pretty silly to base the “readiness for Joe User” rating on installation difficulty. The same goes for switching sound cards, video cards, etc – the general public doesn’t do these things, _ever_. The small fraction who do are the ones who can probably cope with loading a kernel module, etc.
Linux isn’t going to become widely adopted by convincing droves of home users to suddenly repartion their drives and install Debian or something. Those who want to do such a thing already can quite easily. BeOS was about as easy to install as you can get, but that didn’t translate into widespread use. Almost everyone else just uses an operating system that someone else put on the machine, either by the hardware vendor or by their employer.
I have no idea what the heck they did to 8.0 that anaconda crashes on me 3 secs after it starts. I still cand find why i cant install it. 7.3 installed fine.. checked md5sum on the 8.0 cds, used the build in check cd utility. reburned it 3 times, at all speeds my cd rom can support. still same crap. hey, i know this aint tech support, but thats my experience with 8.0 so far.
“With all the hype surrounding the release of RedHat 8.0, I was eager to try it myself. I was particularly interested to see whether this really would be the release that the average user could install and run on a home pc. Regrettably, I don’t believe it is.”
I STRONGLY disagree with your PHILOSOPHY!
Last week I downloaded all 6 iso for RedHat 8 and fried few CDs.
As of now I installed already RedHat8 on 11 different PCs!
First of all people do not install windows themself! Windows are preconfigured on each newly purchased PC.
Second installation of RedHat Linux 8 is the easiest I ever seen! It is all done by OS!
Stunningly easy and ready to use if your hardware is compatible with drivers for your hardware!
I was even surprised to find the driver for the newest ATi Radeon 9700 !
If you think that Linux installation is difficult try to install Windows NT 4.0! I bet you will sweat for several hours before you will figure it out!
After installing RedHat 8 as in every OS configuration need to be made. It is NO different than on any windows! Of course it requires some fundamental knowledge of networking and hardware! On two older PCs PCs I needed manualy reconfigure sound card (Sound Blaster compatible) and modem.
When I read garbage about difficulty with installation of RedHat8 I wonder what is the IQ of those who are reporting such trash!
If any one claims that instalation of RedHat 8 is more difficult than Windows I may suggest to get professional licence as BOOM BOX (STEREO) OPERATOR.
Business companies such as MS or RedHat or Sun, if they want an OS for Joe user’s type. It is not so hard i mean so any way. Only few click and please always click on “Yes” button.
Is it easy or hard to install an OS like Win or Linux? it is up to how advanced users want to challenge. In MS if someone else tries to use LVM for example, it is impossibly for Joe. So is redhat.
I lastnight, ve just installed and configured out all for redhat 8.0. Now I see after you go to *DE straight away, you can use this OS as easy as Win in the normal tasks. Yet, what s about an internet connection? bit different: I login root to configure it up, that is quite simple, just fill up nameISP, username, tel, passwd then click finish. The difficulty here is they do not know what button to be used to click on and connect to internet later. I ve found out an applet called “modem light”. I used it but it does not work at all. Then I linked /sbin/ifup /sbin/ifdown to a “bin” dir to wake up command in the short path. The question: Why RH did not simply use full path cmd or link solution from an OS for Joe’s users. Or even put a applet on panel to connect right after configuring ISP connection.
Almost the rest, I am happy with rh80, very robust and save Mem compared with rh73. “metacity” seems to be right, light weight and fast.
It is probably good solution for a Enterprise where all staffs at least understand what they are using and what OS they dealing with. And very cost-effective. For home user?
I deal with “joe users” on a daily basis and there is one thing a lot of IT people just don’t get: If the role of the person is anything but IT, they just won’t have the time to spend on installs or understanding the capabilities of the OS – period. I know I don’t have the time to learn ACCPAC or some lame insurance application because of my role…
out
I have this same card on a notebook HP ZT1150 and it works fine (no 3d though)
Just make sure you tell the installer how much RAM you have in my case uses 16meg.
Well… consider me as a newbie, just know basis config, and I’ve downloaded the new Red-Hat 8. I’m sorry to say this, but it’s not that bad again. Even Mandrake is still a hell for me 🙂
Red-Hat 8 WORKS! It’s out, and it works. I know many points still need to get changed but, look forward. See what this new graphical enviroment has done about the Linux Desktop. The default is wonderfull, and I’m just on a avaerage system, desktop and laptop 1Ghz and 650Mhz. Default install does not take any long time.
But my point is… and it’s not sad to heard anyone!
Be happy, it’s out, it’s a small revolution and it’s a big step to gain moer of the desktop marked. I’ve made a minor change to get rid of Linux on my laptop witch is my work computer, but does also have Red-Hat 8 and Mandrake 9 install on my desktop.
So, please consider how bad made in every thinkful way it really is. I’ll think that it is a good thing for everybody.
Anyone agree?
“The biggest problem with the Desktop Linux “goal,” is that people
keep moving the goalposts!
”
I agree that “desktop” is not a useful term. It bundles several quite
different markets.
1. general office computer
2. consumer home computer (AOL type)
3. advanced home computer (editing videos, making music, etc)
4. studio computer (serious pro use of audio, 3D rendering, graphic
design, etc software)
5. professional business computer (accountants, lawyers, etc)
6. scientific computer
7. games computer
and probably several others. Some of these are suited to Linux and
others are not.
You can’t trust those memory figures. How much of koffice is preloaded with kde? how much does it use if you are running gnome instead of kde? How much of ms office is preloaded with the os? How much less memory would windows use less if you removed all the non essential components? Looking at memory numbers alone does not show much.
I too find ms office to be bloated, i dont use all that many of its features, and it feels sluggish to me. There are lots of elements that i would like to not have, but its just not possible to remove them. You on the other hand might like and use many of those things, so for you it is not bloated. Whatever a program is considered bloated or not depends on the eyes looking at it. I happen to find openoffice even more bloated and less useable than ms office, but i still prefer not to use any of them.
The main reason i started using linux was that i could choose which software to run. Some programs i like to be large and fully featured. I would hate using something like fvwm instead of kde, but with other things it is the opposite, i would hate using ibm visualage or ms visual studio instead of emacs* for instance.
*) And yes, i do consider emacs to be bloated, in fact i think this is one of the most bloated applications ever made, but i really like the small subset of it that im using
After a format, windows + the programs i need took me 3 days to install, thank god i have a backup (Powerquest Drive Image) now and it takes me 30 min. now (no more formatting + 3 days)to put that back.
Redhat 8 or Mandrake 9 took me 1 hour with all the programs and install was as easy as windows and i’m not a techie, geek, more like a Joe who isn’t afraid to try.
So not a real problem with the install.
But … here comes this Joe’s real problem. Internet worked after install, i go watch some tv, come back and internet don’t work anymore. Most programs, sound or internet work, next hour or day, they don’t and so on. Reboot pc, network isn’t found (it worked after install, what happpened?).
Linux (kernel) might be very stable OS, but something isn’t. Don’t ask me what! But this is where i flip out.
After ten installs and probably tomorrow and nex week another try, but most non techies, geeks or Joe’s won’t come back at this point.
I’ve installed W98, Mac OS 8.1, Corel Linux 2.0 and Mac OS 10.2.
I also managed to partition by hand a scsi drive for a dual boot system. (Largely because of good technical writing.)
All of the installs went smoothly and easily, Mac OSes giving me the most problem because it wants all of your ISP info up front as it completes the install process.
It’s not the having to reboot a few times, or click a few boxes whose dialog makes it clear and easy to understand what choice you’re making. It’s not even having to feed in a few additional driver cds, or having to tell W98 again and again and again which drive the CD drive is when you have to pop these disks in and out to install the drivers.
It’s discovering that your word processor installed with no indication of where it ended up. It’s going to the find button and typing Corel Word Perfect6 and finding nothing. It’s spending 2 hours on the phone with your guru as you log in and out as / and methodically search every single directory trying to find the application. It’s only when that if you type <MASSIVE SARCASM> obvious </MASSIVE SARCASM> CWP6 into the Finder that you finally discover where the program ended up.
It’s an OS where I’m told that if my name brand, major manufacturer video card/scanner/sound card/cd burner doesn’t detect or work properly, that all I need to do is go to the command line, type some arcane Cthuloid summoning spell (and if I accidently put in a wrong character I’ve probably hosed my system or reconfigured it to fire up the blender and make daquiris every morning at 10am) sacrafice my firstborn and maybe it will work.
It’s an OS where 40% of the time I’m told that I just can’t download, click and run. All I have to do is download, package, and maybe even recompile.
I may not be able to find my word processor or a nice GUI FTP program, <sarcasm>but hey, I can play Quake, right?</sarcasm>
It’s not the install that’s the big problem with Desktop/home user Linux.
It’s the everything else.
MS Word with five 10 page documents open (not identical documents) takes 12MB of RAM on Win2k. KWord with identical document content takes 8MB.
Word 2002/XP takes 12MB of RAM on startup for me under Win2k. I opened up a single 300KB 19 page document and it went up to 24.5MB. I opened up Outlook (I have Word set as my email editor) and it went up to 24.7MB. Then again, Phoenix is using 17MB right now and Visual Studio’s taking up 6.5MB (12MB when I restore it from minimized so it has to load up the form I’m working on, 15MB when I switch it over to the code view). Minimize Word (with the doc still loaded) and it goes to just under 1MB, bring it back up and it goes to 4MB. Minimize Phoenix and it, too goes to 1MB, then restoring it jumps to 7MB and it starts climbing from there.
Memory usage on Windows changes quite a bit based on what you’re doing at the moment or what you’ve done recently. Either way, I still have over 300MB of RAM free.
Direct Link for this comment Re: Agreed!
By Fooks (IP: —.xs4all.nl) – Posted on 2002-10-11 07:45:29
>I *HATE* the time configuration part – why can’t I just >pick a time zone? Why dozens on dozens of freaking cities?
Use the cute worldmap to select your city, or at least to scroll the list to your general area. The map will also zoom in to make more precise selection easier. Should be a 3 second task.
-fooks
But thats highly inefficient – no cities near me (Oklahoma City) were listed as Central, so I had to choose Chicago – which before I wasn’t even certain was Central Time Zone. I’m not the only one to get angry at this part – lots of my students hated it too. *Every* other o.s. lets you choose a freaking time zone, even the “hard” FreeBSD(!!!), I do not see how picking a city is any easier then a Time Zone – for most of us, its confusing. I’ve been using Red Hat long enough that, for me, its no longer an issue – but it is highly illogical. School children usually know what time zone their in, how is this helpful?
He’s been interested in computers ever since he bought a mail order Sinclair ZX-81 advertised in Popular Mechanics
I had a “48K spekie” too when i was a kid
, they still make that processor you know:
http://www.zilog.com/products/
Still love that tape loading noise.
I agree that “desktop” is not a useful term. It bundles several quite different markets.
Exactly. So when someone sees “Desktop Linux” they might think:
“Fantastic! I can be more productive from less Windows crashes. I’ll put that on my machine at work!”
or
“Great! I hate having Windows on my box at home. I can use it to play my music & games.”
and so forth. One is going to be disappointed, since each assumes that “Desktop” will mean their intended use.
(And we all know what Assumptions do…)
Re: Hugo:
I had a “48K spekie” too when i was a kid
, they still make that processor you know:
Luxury! Wasn’t that a ZX-Spectrum?
I never had more than 1K of RAM to work with. My 16K Expansion Pack kept “Spontaneously Combusting.”
(What’s that burning smell? Oh damn! 1K again. But who needs more than 1K anyway?)
Word 2000 probably uses more user space ‘memory’ because it’s isn’t as intergrated into the windows kernal as 2002 is
Nice troll attempt. Word 2002 may use a lot of Win32 APIs, but itsn’t integrated into the windows kernel (besides, they probably didn’t use the latest APIs in Windows XP as their competitors claim they could because it runs even on Windows 98).
Word 2002 generally takes more RAM than 2000, but because it is more modularized, it takes less if you are just using words. Throw in some Word-Art, pictures, tables etc., and see the memory needs increase in comparison with Word 2000…
Besides, I don’t know where I got the 12MB and 8MB numbers, it is actually 18MB and 12MB for MS Word 2002 and KWord respectively..
Kady Mae: I’ve installed W98, Mac OS 8.1, Corel Linux 2.0 and Mac OS 10.2.
Congrats Kady, no longer you are a Average Jane…. (Windows 98 is one of the hardest installs I have ever been though, Debian looks like a walk in the park…)
PainKilleR: Word 2002/XP takes 12MB of RAM on startup for me under Win2k. I opened up a single 300KB 19 page document and it went up to 24.5MB. I opened up Outlook (I have Word set as my email editor) and it went up to 24.7MB.
My real numbers is up there, god only knows where I pulled those earlier numbers off. (Remember, I was comparing MS Word with KWord, my friend).
Say, you never answered my earlier question on another thread, are you the same guy on osOpinion with the same nick?
It’s not perfect, but it’s the most enjoyable Linux experience I’ve had to date. I would really like to see the guys @ RH improve upon things in the 8.1/8.2/etc. versions.
linux lacks fonts that lock good and are clean. you can down load microsoft fonts but that is a pathetic and shows just how far linux is away from the desk to of the average user. if a person buying a automobile was told by the salesman you have a choice of 10 gear boxes but to realy get the best out of your new purchace on the way home call in at the opositions showroom and pick up there gear box which is not realy to hard to fit and tweak then this machine will realy rock what would you think. eye candy is all well and good but you spend far more time looking at fonts than icons. linux neads to get the simple things right if it is to give Bill any sleeples nights and make it to the desk top of the masses
Fonts is more complicated than that. Way more complicated. Especially compared with icons. I can make an few icons in a day, depending on my creativity, but creating just one font set takes at least a year, and you need to hire expensive people to do it. Making decorative fonts is easy, making fonts people read all the time takes a lot of time, to make sure the hinting, spacing, sizing etc. is perfect.
Linux has certainly come a long way since the early days of Slackware. Unfortunately, it still isn’t ready for the desktop of the average user, as long as the average user must install it from scratch.
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This comment indicates that the user writes linux off at the moment based on one distro, which we know has had a history of catering to the server market.
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And corporate users (who have a windows infrastructure, but no unix infrastructure) may rather want to try Mandrake 9.0, since for one, it allows joining of a Windows domain during installation. Following installation, any domain user can log into the machine, or use any of the services (mail, web, shell, file shares, printer shares etc) with their domain account.
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New font configuration and a common KDE/Gnome theme does not a desktop distro make.
Regarding all of the comments on the confusing and difficult installation of RedHat 8, I have to say that I have had none. Admittedly I am not a novice user, having used Redhta since release 5.2, but my 12-year-old stepson has had no trouble whatsoever installing it. In fact, he said that the installation of RedHat 8 was much improved over 7.3.
>I *HATE* the time configuration part – why can’t I just pick a time zone? Why dozens on dozens of freaking cities?
I live in Bolivia, and I love to select La Paz, because the *Average Joe User* may find easy to point in the map his ubication. Really, a bad assumption of this guy. I thing he is making dummy assumptions about this “Average Joe User” that may like ..mm. 256, no, 400 packages installed, that is able to install an operative system with an internet conection but don’t even know anything about networks. I think that if you are *the Average Joe User*, and want to install an OS with internet conection, you’d probably always call someone to help you, or pay for the service.
I only agree about Red Hat *can* improve an easy interface for the installation process, but I’m sure that Windows 95, 98, *Milenium*, 2000 and XP somehow as difficult as RH to install.