Submitted by Many people who have called Apple to complain about excessive heat coming from their newly purchased computers have been told that the MacBook and the MacBook Pro are in fact Notebook computers and not Laptop computers. This article details why they are totally full of it.
Apple Hypocrisy: ‘MacBook NOT a Laptop’
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Adam Scheinberg
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Apple have always refered to their “laptops” as notebooks for this very reason.
Sure!
Because Apples PowerPC based PowerBooks were much warmer than the P4 or K7/K8 based PC laptops… These computers are refered to by their manufacturers as laptops or notebooks, but the customers find them to be “desktop replacements”. Very hot, and with little over an hour of battery life.
BTW, I have used the MacBook all week, and it’s not that hot. It can get quite hot if you convert movies or render 3D graphics. But who keeps a computer on the lap for a whole 1+ hour render session? With ordinary h.264 playback, web surfing and photo editing it only gets lukewarm.
If you are that picky, lower the core voltage.
Ok so, it’s not a computer that sits in your lap, it’s a more like a book to keeps notes in?
Interesting…think I’d rather have the laptop computer that apple swears it doesn’t have.
My old Toshiba Satellite got the same kind of ‘heat’ problem… But then again I rarely uses my laptop butt-naked… I mean… Keep your trousers on when you are using the computer!
My brother has been using a MacBook Pro since it got out… He is very happy with it! He didn’t have any heat problem (Though he did install the firmware update to make the fan RPM a little higher)… He uses it on the train (On his lap, but not butt-naked) when he goes to work!
My 2 Cents!
Well, it’s unacceptable when it reaches 95 degrees Celcius. There is no way you can have that on your lap, unless you want 3rd degree burns.
40-50 degrees Celcius are acceptable, but nothing more than that.
EDIT: Fixed typos
Edited 2006-06-17 04:23
Of course, the surface of the laptop doesn’t actually get to the CPU temp
Too bad, though. It could’ve replaced my electrical kettle
It still gets ridiculously hot:
http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16290107
I don’t know about anyone else, but if my desktop or any laptop I’ve owned in the past had a CPU temp of 95°C the processor would have locked up. I’ve had lockups at 75°C when I had misapplied thermal grease; how is it possible to have a working laptop at such a high temp? I would think at the very least the processor’s lifespan would be shortened significantly.
Intel’s processors have a high heat tolerence. Core Duos are rated up to 100C, while AMD’s are rated up to like 65C. It’s a byproduct of Intel’s manufacturing method.
You think that’s hot, the NV43 (GeForce 6600) is rated up to 125C. I’ve taken it to over 130C, because I unplugged the fan on the HSF (it was noisy).
I don’t know about anyone else, but if my desktop or any laptop I’ve owned in the past had a CPU temp of 95°C the processor would have locked up.
Core Duos are actually rated up to the boiling point of water. Some wise person inside Apple should have twigged that if they were going to use this in a consumer product then it better damn well not get up to that temperature under any circumstances, or if it does it damn well better not have any external effect whatsoever.
You do have to be careful about the accuracy of software and hardware that measures temperatures, but whatever, there’s no getting away from the fact that a Macbook pumps out a huge amount of heat that you can really feel externally.
Edited 2006-06-17 22:58
He’s referring to the CPU core temp. Did you think he meant the outer case?
It wasn’t clear in the article, that’s all. Anyway see reply to rayiner.
Anyway, temperatures above 40 degrees Celcius are quite uncomfortable. And 60 degrees celcius is right out unacceptable. High enough to give burn through clothing after long use. 60 degrees celcius is hot, 40 degrees is lukewarm. Lukewarm is okay, hot is not (pun intended).
Edited 2006-06-17 07:20
Yeah, sorry, I hadn’t noticed rayiners reply. No point in stating things twice of course.
And I agree with your assessment that everythin above 40 C is uncomfortable. Only 10 degrees can make the difference between comfy and uncomfy in my experience.
Edited 2006-06-17 07:28
“My old Toshiba Satellite got the same kind of ‘heat’ problem…”
My still somewhat-new Toshiba Satellite doesn’t get that hot, it’ll cause me to sweat if it’s already warm enough in the room though. Although I haven’t tried using it without pants on to be honest (hehe), and I also havn’t checked to see if seating the thing on my lap isn’t making me sterile (not that I plan on having kids anyway).
On a slightly offtopic note, I’m looking forward to when Laptops give off negligible heat, have batteries that last around 10 hours under a reasonable workload, and are made out of more resilient parts like solid state storage. Perhaps some day we’ll have mid-range laptops for ~500$ with no need for case fans and still keep cool.
I know Dell has been refering to their ‘portable’ computers as notebooks for several years now because people calling it a laptop want to put it on their laps. I don’t know how warm the MacBook/Pro gets, but the 17in Powerbook isn’t something I would really want to have on my lap, even with trousers on.
I don’t get it, I don’t recall how warm the 15in Powerbook gets, but I doubt the Macbooks get much warmer than the 17in Powerbook that I use so why is everyone crying? If anything, I would expect more heat. I think they are a bit thinner than their PPC counterparts but require more juice and subsequently, release more heat. Instead of going for style points, I would have stuck with a similar case design used by the powerbooks. Don’t get me wrong, I love my Mac but sometimes I wonder.
Well, right now I am using my laptop while sitting at the toilet! Am I alone in thinking that is one of the great advantages of WiFi technology?
Well, anyone who chooses to use their notebook/laptop under heavy load on their lap is asking for problems (ie, playing games, heavy rendering, compiling), so the intelligent thing is to use it in moderation. I’d imagine using them for email/web browsing wouldn’t be a problem. I’d hate to see this issue reach the level of coffee cups where they need a disclaimer printed onto the notebook/laptop…
So, a feature, not a bug.
Sounds like a feature to me. Lost in the woods, need drinkable water, turn on the macbook, get the water ‘close enough’ to boiling to kill off most the germs and then get on one of those survival shows talking about how you should be dead but were saved by you Mactel notebook!
Its all about good design.
Neal Saferstein
Neal Saferstein
In that “article” – bloggy thing IMO – it says 95 degrees – at that temperature the thing should be melting .
The heat will I guess be mostly created by the CPU & 95 degrees is a temperature modern CPUs are long dead at .
How can it be so hot & the sytem still fine ?
Overheating will not improve the hardware life & relaiablilty .
If these computers are designed for standstill – happily sitting somewhere – then they can throw in some proper big drives – right ?
🙂
The melting temperature of silicon is quite a bit above 95C
Actually, up to 100C is within spec for the Core Duo. Intel has always rated its chips higher than AMD has, and it rates its laptop chips higher than its desktop ones.
As for the Macbook, yeah it gets hot, but if you get a normal one, you can use it comfortably on your lap unless its touching your bare skin or something. “Normal” is an operative word here, since the temps on these systems seem to vary a lot. Mine idles in the 40s, and sits loaded in the 60s. I heard of ones that get a lot hotter than that, though both Macbooks I tried got the same temps. In all, using it isn’t any more uncomfortable than the Inspiron 8200 the Macbook replaced, though since that was a Pentium-4 laptop, that’s not saying much
One more point. The machines will probably get a bit cooler once Apple figures out how to idle the CPU at 1GHz. With the present firmware, the CPU never goes below 1.5 GHz, which is high for idle speed.
Edited 2006-06-17 04:32
I don’t suggest any males put their computers on their laps anyway, unless you don’t want to have any (more) children, that is.
Maybe that’s 95 degrees Fahrenheit, which is about 35C 😉
http://www.appledefects.com/images/94celcius-macbook.jpg
they have pictures that document the temperature, as do sites like intelmactemps.com
the macbooks run outrageously hot, mine included.
Unpossible
The next thing you’ll be telling me that car ads show pro drivers on closed circuits doing things that the owner’s manual claims will void your warrenty!
such as Appledefects.com. Surely microsoftsucks.com will tell me reasons why VIsta will kick @ss!
They must mean ‘people who defected to Apple’ with that domain name.
I more than doubt that any Apple Store would say that. I only see regular Apple lovers saying that, not the official stores. The only official statement is the regular warning about potential disconfort as any other laptop maker does, nothing special.
Let’s play Stallman Says!
It’s GNU slash Linux, not Linux.
Please! Just let me run the darn OS, and let me get support for a similarly named product.
Edited 2006-06-17 04:40
OSNews Hypocrisy: NOT about an OS, NOT really news.
I agree entirely. I was reading Blue’s News today and was shocked to find some news that wasn’t about the colour blue.
I have a Week 22 2 GHz MBP with 2 GB of RAM, and while it does get extremely hot on the underside when I put it under heavy load — particularly where the GPU/CPU are localized — it’s nowhere near 95C. I call bullsh*t on that.
That said, it’s probably more of a disclaimer than it is real advice. If you’re wearing pants, and not playing a game, the MBP is just fine on your lap.
> That said, it’s probably more of a disclaimer than it is real advice.
Exactly. Apple is worried about a class action lawsuit I suspect. In fact, I have even caught them censoring heat complaints from the MacBook Pro forums. A few threads regarding the heat issues just mysteriously disappeared.
When I called to complain about the heat from mine, I was told exactly that. “We aren’t selling them as laptops. We are selling them as notebooks”. But even that was only after being transfered to a supervisor when I mentioned heat. Seems they don’t even want their first level tech support taking heat calls, but are transfering those calls directly to supervisors (who have been briefed by Apple lawyers probably). Of course, when I told the person who I talked to that it was just legal manuevering to avoid accepting responsibility that their systems run too hot for their intended use, he promptly changed the subject and refused to say anymore about it.
ok call bullshit on intelmactemps.com database, as well as screenshots and the countless documented evidence.
http://www.appledefects.com/images/94celcius-macbook.jpg
There has been some controversy regarding the kernel extension and its ability to report proper temperatures. Some people say that on the low-end, the numbers are TOO low, and on the high end, they’re too high.
I have a MacBook Pro and I find that it [runs cool | burns me].
[insert claim that the posters experiences are representative of the quality of the MBP and the experiences of the general public at large]
Sites which claim otherwise than my experiences are run by [microsoft | apple] to spout propaganda.
My old laptop used to run waay [hotter | cooler] and had far [less | more] features and was [worse | better] value for money.
That is so cool! We need no other posts on that subject now.
Can you please work on a template for why Operating System X is better than Operating System Y?
It will cut down on a lot of unnecessary chatter.
I have a Dell Inspiron 6000 with a Pentium M 1.8 Ghz. The thing runs pretty hot. Do I worry? – No, it is what it is. It has never let me down and the performance is great. Sure, I can’t let it sit on my lap for a long time but I think that’s the same of any laptop with a high performance specification. Another thing to note is that Apple never managed to squeeze a G5 into a laptop form factor. Why? Because it would burn the pants off someone. Laptop, notebook, powerbook or cooltop there are technological limits to what a company can produce. Some people are willing to accept that, others are just looking for something to complain about.
…as laptops. It hurts me to use them like that. I think of them as “portable” computers. I need to use them at a desk.
I do have friends who use them on the train and stuff… but I can’t.
[edit] HOWEVER! I should note that my friends that DO use them on the train, also stack them on top of their brief case, which is on their lap.
Edited 2006-06-17 06:15
This is nothing new in the “portable computer” market. My Dell Inspiron 5150 (a few years old) gets uncomfortably hot too. Thanks to the fact that it has one of the first edition Moible Pentium 4s (3.06ghz). I guess Dell is a hypocrite from a few years ago as well, along with many other portable computer manufacturers in the market.
I believe that Apple should offer a system that runs cooler for those who want something they can have on their laps comfortably for hours. However, I don’t think they’re doing anything that is really all that different from any other laptop manufacturer.
Whether this is really wrong or right is subjective. I personally don’t consider it wrong — like all products, caveat emptor (Buyer Beware). When it comes to buying high dollar items, every consumer should be expected to do a little research before purchasing.
For a couple of years (but before Apple’s switch to Intel CPUs), I have been hearing that Apple laptops run very cool. That was a very attractive prospect for me, as the only thing I couldn’t stand with my IBM Thinkpad 600X, was the excessive heat it dissipated.
So now, Apple laptops (or “notebooks”, whatever you call them) have joined the Intel world of laptops in an unwelcome way?
By the way, is this excessive heat dissipation with Apple laptops happening also with their current PowerPC line?
I’ve used an iBook G3 before, and currently use an iBook G4 1.33Ghz. I’ve never noticed excessive heat dissipation. When using the laptop for browsing, email, word processing,… cpu temperature stays around 50 degrees. When compiling a big project cpu temperature reaches 60 degrees. Note that this is under linux, where the fan by default starts running a lot sooner than on OSX. In any case, the bottom of the iBook never got so hot that it would burn me.
Here is another source of ‘information’ 😉
http://www.crazyapplerumors.com/?p=623
For what is worth:
1. A lot of people are reporting that the MacBook Pro runs hot.
2. Very few people report the MacBook as running hot.
I finally decided to upgrade from my old Power Mac G4 to a MacBook, and have been using it for this last week. Not hot at all, not even when under heavy CPU (both cores)+graphics load. Neither did any of the models I tried at the store (I wouldn’t have bought it in that case).
Your mileage may vary of course, but it seems to me that the heat issues where an issue with MacBook Pro models, particularly the first batch.
the author of that article has a point. Apple is a little inconsistent in their marketing and manuals.
It’s a shame really, because the root of these problems (the thermal compound hack job) are easily remedied, but Apple isn’t doing anything about it.
After fixing the problem myself, this machine runs cool inside and out. I can comfortably use it on my bare legs no matter the load. The case temperature stays more or less the same because the fans are quick to react to any load.
If his CPU reaches 95 deg C, he should either fix it himself or take it back. The problem with these kind of core temperatures is that the CPU will throttle back clock speed to protect itself (a fact the author of the article apparently isn’t even aware of, but which can easily be demonstrated with freeware tools). His laptop will not be able to sustain maximum clock speed under heavy loads.
But keep ignoring the problem, Apple. We all know that ignoring problems makes them go away.
Just because Apple does not openly respond to the issue does not mean they are ignoring it.
Who knows which production-procedures are being changed at this very moment or indeed who’s getting fired as we speak?
Apple has stated to people complaining about hot (or overly warm as Apple calls it) laptops that it’s within spec.
Also, they didn’t change a thing assembly-wise. MBP’s sold right now still have the same thermal paste problem. All Apple did was issue a firmware update that lowered the temp threshold at which the fans kick in and possibly enabled more agressive CPU throttling. But that’s a patch, not a fix. But hey, it’s all about the money – crank out as much laptops an hour as possible.
Look, I’m a mac head as much as the next guy and I’m absolutely crazy about this here MacBookPro, but that doesn’t keep me from noticing when Apple screws up.
none a week on OSNews without an article against Apple ….
In fact, what just proof this guy called Apple ? Nothing.
Edited 2006-06-17 07:39
“Well, anyone who chooses to use their notebook/laptop under heavy load on their lap is asking for problems (ie, playing games, heavy rendering, compiling), so the intelligent thing is to use it in moderation.”
So you should be able to use your Mac notebook on your lap without trowsers to look at naked ladies without getting burnt – just a bit warm – is that moderation?
I guess people are bound & determined to use their “notebook” at full capacity on their laps for 8-10 hours no matter what any manual says, and if they get burned it is NOT their fault for being a total blithering idiot, it’s Apple’s fault for faulty design. Give me a break!!!
If you like to stare at a screen for that amount of time while doing video rendering, then you have other problems that just might be related to the above-mentioned “blithering idiot” syndrome. <EG>
Apple is telling you not to use their laptop on your groin for long periods of time. That is their suggestion as to the usage of their equipment. You can accept it or not. That doesn’t prevent you from using it for short periods of time somewhere in your lap area.
It’s not really a new issue for people that have owned x86 laptops within the last number of years. They’ve been pretty uncomfortably warm. I generally avoid using my Thinkpad on my body when possible. It’s entirely possible that the MBP with its oreo filling is especially poor in this regard when compared to other Core Duo laptops, but you’re still probably engaging in a bad habit if you’re sitting for long periods with a hot piece of electronics on your groin.
What do you expect when the chip industry was on a massive speed march for the last four years. All heat issues were pushed to the side in the name of claiming the next fastest chip.
And then when intel were prepping their new 3.8GHz P4, they realised that you would need to spend at least a £100 on cooling equipment alone to use it.
Things will get better in the future, but it’s not entirely Apple to blame. They only put the laptops together, they’re not responsible for the heat issues of an _INTEL_ chip. This article should be about how intel chips are too hot.
How heat dissipation is handled by laptop manufacturers is their responsibility. There of course is only so much one can do with a given form factor and hardware, though.
The other issue is that Apple is ostensibly responsible for the heat dissipation issues of their notebooks because they opted to move to Intel for this line of products in the first place.
The Pentium M wasn’t designed as part of the blind “speed march.” Its main thing from its release to the current Core Duo has been efficient high-performance. Intel’s efforts with Netburst are a separate issue.
Excuse me sir … but Apple disturbs all mac users and developpers for the intel switch. What for ? gaining heat for faster cpu ?
This will disapoint apple customers, that have ever ask quality before (and expensive) fast hardware – apple built its success on this rule. Yes intel chip have heat issues – that’s why i use AMD stuff – but maybe apple did the intel switch too early … or with the wrong supplier .
It should be pointed out that the current Intel laptops don’t get any hotter than PowerBooks did in the past. The problem seems to be one with Apple’s quality assurance, where some machines get much hotter than others because of defective cooling.
Things will get better in the future, but it’s not entirely Apple to blame. They only put the laptops together, they’re not responsible for the heat issues of an _INTEL_ chip.
yes and no. Apple had the choice of sticking with IBM and FreeScale PowerPC chips (which, I believe, are still more power efficient and consequently run cooler than Intels chips, although admittedly being slower). I also think it _is_ Apple’s responsibility that a chip is adequately cooled in the hardware platform they developed. If the chip they use, produces a huge amount of heat, it is their responsibility to develop a mechanism to get rid of that heat.
What do you expect when the chip industry was on a massive speed march for the last four years. All heat issues were pushed to the side in the name of claiming the next fastest chip.
I agree with you here and I wish it weren’t so. I would definitely buy a laptop with a slower cpu, that has a longer battery life and that only rarely needs to activate the fan. I wish the chip industry would focus more on power efficiency for laptop and even desktop cpus. Actually, I think that recently power efficiency is considered more important than before… consider the importance of “performance/watt” these days.
I thought the whole point of Apple that there were no excuses along the lines of ‘they only put the laptops together’. Apple are supposed to be the only supplier who has total end to end control of all aspects of hardware and software. They are supposed to pick the chips, design the cases, integrate (that magic word) with the OS so that it all just works.
Most likely what has happened is that they pushed the boundaries a bit far. The cases should have been a bit fatter, or the fans a bit more powerful and thus noisy, or both. But they would not have looked quite so elegant.
“Most likely what has happened is that they pushed the boundaries a bit far. The cases should have been a bit fatter, or the fans a bit more powerful and thus noisy, or both. But they would not have looked quite so elegant.”
I’m getting a little tired of repeating myself but no, they didn’t push the boundaries too far. The design is solid. Provided that there are no defective fans or thermal sensors, careless application of the heat paste is the only reason the macintel laptops run hot.
Most likely what is happening is that people who don’t know what they are talking about think they know what they’re talking about.
I’m getting a little tired of repeating myself but no, they didn’t push the boundaries too far. The design is solid. Provided that there are no defective fans or thermal sensors, careless application of the heat paste is the only reason the macintel laptops run hot.
Moot point. The point is: Apple is supposed to be a higher-quality manufacturer, and for 2500E (which this MBP I’m typing this on costs) I expect a flawless experience, not an electric heater. The fact that the MacBook (Pro) is having serious heating problems simply means Apple is making crappy laptops. Whether it be by design, by crap engineering, it’s irrelevant.
The MacBook and MacBook Pro are a no-go for me. I saved up money for one, but forget it. I’m not buying this junk.
“Moot point. The point is: Apple is supposed to be a higher-quality manufacturer, and for 2500E (which this MBP I’m typing this on costs) I expect a flawless experience, not an electric heater. The fact that the MacBook (Pro) is having serious heating problems simply means Apple is making crappy laptops. Whether it be by design, by crap engineering, it’s irrelevant.”
While I fully agree that when you spend E2500 you shouldn’t get a headache as a bonus, my point is not a moot point at all. People keep insisting that it is a design flaw, that the laptop is too thin, that the fans move too little air and whatever other nonsense. My point is that this is simply not true. I never said that there is no problem. I only said that the problem is not a design problem.
Your loss Thom. I’m writing this on my MacBook, and it’s fantastic.
> The design is solid.
No it is not solid. Apple switched to a chip (Core duo) which runs hotter than the PowerPC they used to use. And how did they compensate for that? By removing the side air vents and taking out one of the fans..
What world besides Steve Job’s “wonderful world of asthetics over function” does that even make sense in? “oh I know… Lets put a hotter running chip in here, and lets reduce the cooling capacity of the design by removing vents and fans.”
To be fair, his argument is, if you get the paste installed properly, the heating problem goes away, and so this proves that the amount of air and fans must be adequate. Don’t know, haven’t done it. My guess, and it was no more, was based on a past history of optimistic estimates about cooling which were almost certainly not due to paste. At least, no-one ever argued they were.
> To be fair, his argument is, if you get the paste installed properly,
> the heating problem goes away, and so this proves that the amount
> of air and fans must be adequate.
Except the problems don’t go away even when the paste is installed propery. There have been several reports that all the trouble of installing the paste properly only made a difference of about 2 degrees. 203 degrees instead of 205 is still way to hot.
“> The design is solid.
No it is not solid. Apple switched to a chip (Core duo) which runs hotter than the PowerPC they used to use. And how did they compensate for that? By removing the side air vents and taking out one of the fans.. “
Yes it is solid. Wtf do you know about it? Have you taken either a MB or a MBP apart? Do you even own one? How did they compensate? The grille at the back is both inlet and outlet. In addition to that they use a larger heat pipe and a large capacity blower instead of those noisy little fans the iBooks have. In the MBP’s case the grille runs almost the entire length of the backside of the machine. A double heat pipe and two blowers are used. Both designs are very efficient at removing heat IF ASSEMBLED CORRECTLY. Get it?
No offense, but like I said, you don’t know what you’re talking about. What you are doing is called speculating.
Edited 2006-06-17 22:02
I do find Mac fans amusing at times, especially when they pay top money and get shafted for something which is in effect, junk.
Apple may talk about not putting it on your lap, but I’ve seen Macbooks that have transmitted an awful lot of heat right through a solid surface like a table right through to the other side. It’s difficult to touch the surface for some time afterwards. I thought laptops and notebooks from a few years ago were bad. Oh, and that’s without that stupid bit of plastic that Apple saw fit to stick on some Macbooks…..
Yes it is solid. Wtf do you know about it?
Saying it doesn’t make the situation any different. Evidence says otherwise.
Have you taken either a MB or a MBP apart?
This is a Mac. I pay top money for it and I expect the whole thing to work properly without any problems whatsoever. I am not taking it apart. People buy Macs so they don’t have to do that, and that’s the same with OEMs. If I have a problem it goes straight back to Apple for a refund, and regardless of Apple’s terms and conditions I bring consumer law on top of them.
Both designs are very efficient at removing heat IF ASSEMBLED CORRECTLY.
Oh right. So everyone has to reassemble their Macbooks properly? That’s what we’re all doing wrong. Thanks for that really useful nugget of information. Because let’s face it, it isn’t Apple’s job to do that properly and it’s up to us to sort it out ourselves. Silly us.
What you are doing is called speculating.
Have a look at the ample evidence of how hot a Macbook gets under some load, and that it isn’t a single batch or one or two users either. If that’s the case what Apple has is a faulty design, and they’ve used the wrong components (Intel chips) or they are failing to design a machine that handles it adequately for purposes that it will be used for and is not fit for pourpose. Whatever it is, and I don’t care about specifics because a Mac is supposedly a finished product, as a Macbook buyer it is not my problem. That isn’t speculation.
The thing is junk, and we’re not even discussing the many other issues.
Edited 2006-06-17 22:46
Nice rant, but why didn’t you read the whole argument first?
Where do I say that everyone should reapply their thermal paste? All I’m arguing is that not the design, but Apple’s thermal paste hack job is the reason the machines heat up. I know they get hot, you didn’t have to tell me that. It’s what this thread is about, remember?
It’s not that hard to understand. I don’t know how I can make this more clear for you.
You’ve lost the argument, so SHUT THE F*** UP.
> All I’m arguing is that not the design, but Apple’s thermal paste
> hack job is the reason the machines heat up.
And as I pointed out before, you are wrong. Various people who have tested this theory founds that reapplying the thermal paste correctly only made a 2 degree difference. So the thermal paste is not really the problem.
“Various people who have tested this theory founds that reapplying the thermal paste correctly only made a 2 degree difference.
Oh, right. You mean this one guy with that blog who didn’t even bother to take ‘before’ measurements and decided to compare the ‘after’ situation with his neighbour’s machine? Yeah, sounds like a real pro. And 1 or 2 people on Ars boards. I don’t think it is inconceivable that they simply F’ed up.
There are only a few people who still had problems afterwards. Most people reported a cool running computer.
> There are only a few people who still had problems afterwards.
> Most people reported a cool running computer.
Not buying it. The simple fact is the cooling system design is flawed. There is one fan, and one vent at the back. They removed two vents and the other fan which existed in the PowerBooks–Despite the fact that the Core Duo runs significantly hotter than the PowerPC. What sense does that make? Take a processor that already runs much hotter than the processor you were using before, and then reduce the ability to move air over it?
You’re comparing apples to oranges dude. Or rather, confusing apples with oranges. It’s not difficult though:
ibook: one fan –> macbook: one fan
powerbook: two fans –> macbookpro: two fans
Both MB and MBP have larger heat pipes, larger fans and larger air inlets than the ibook and powerbook. The small side grilles on the ibook and powerbook don’t do jack for the cpu.
Am I finally getting through to you? It might actually help to physically check out the hardware you’re discussing. I did.
“Take a processor that already runs much hotter than the processor you were using before, and then reduce the ability to move air over it?”
Air isn’t moved over the processor. It’s moved over the heat pipe/sink fins. Why do I get the sneaking suspicion that you don’t know a whole lot about cooling solutions?
Edited 2006-06-18 14:07
Air isn’t moved over the processor. It’s moved over the heat pipe/sink fins. Why do I get the sneaking suspicion that you don’t know a whole lot about cooling solutions?
That’s exactly what he’s saying when he says ‘moving air over the processor’. Mind you, when it comes to Mac fans defending their company to the hilt maybe moving air through a system has nothing to do with cooling now?
It all sounds like one of those idiots who you might meet on the ‘Genius Bar’, who are happy to tell you why you’re wrong about the product that you’ve payed a lot of money for and that the problems that exist aren’t really problems at all.
Edited 2006-06-18 16:09
> Why do I get the sneaking suspicion that you don’t know a whole
> lot about cooling solutions?
Why do I get the sneaking feeling you are using a red herring argument and playing word games? Is it because you can’t come up with a legimite argument against what I said, so you have to make a personal attack?
I am fully aware that the air moves over the heat pipe/sink fans. And I suspect most other people here are as well. Hence why I didn’t feel the need to go into that level of detail.
So unless you can come up with a real argument against what I said, instead of a poorly founded personal attack based on a red herring, then just don’t sa anything at all.
Personal attack? I didn’t attack your person in any way. ???
Personal attacks are for frustrated people (are you listening segedunum?).
So you meant the heat sink. Ok, fine. But I’m wondering why you feel compelled to let me know this but don’t reply to my other post (the reply to your post where you compare macbooks to powerbooks instead of ibooks).
> Personal attack? I didn’t attack your person in any way. ???
Sure you did. You accused me of not knowing anything about cooling systems. When the reality is that I probably build my first system before you were even born.
> The reply to your post where you compare macbooks to
> powerbooks instead of ibooks).
I believe I compared MacBook Pros to Powerbooks. If I didn’t, then that was what I meant to do.
“Sure you did. You accused me of not knowing anything about cooling systems”
That’s not a personal attack. Unless you’re really sensitive.
“When the reality is that I probably build my first system before you were even born.”
How would you know my age? Sheesh man, it’s not because of my nick, is it?
“I believe I compared MacBook Pros to Powerbooks. If I didn’t, then that was what I meant to do.”
You didn’t.
> How would you know my age? Sheesh man, it’s not because of my
> nick, is it?
No. It’s because of your style of argument. And also because of the fact that you don’t seem to be that familar with Apple’s history of not providing adequite cooling for their systems. After all, they didn’t learn their lesson from the Apple III. The original Titanium PowerBooks ran way too hot as well and had to go back for a redesign.
Edited 2006-06-18 20:30
The main point Simba is making is right and does not depend on the particular layout of this particular machine.
There is a reason why a company has a long term record of heat/noise problems. Apple has had far too many for it to be explicable as an accident. The pattern at work is the triumph of lifestyle marketing over industrial design. Sometimes it leads to the noise of a jet engine taking off coming from a floorstander. Sometimes it leads to overheating.
Take a look at the Antec 180, and compare it to the Apple floorstanders. The Antec was designed by people who wanted the quietest, coolest, simplest to work on case they could make. The Mac was designed to impress people who know very little about hardware and who will buy it without hearing it running.
The G4 QS or MD had noise problems, but most computers from Dell sound worse.
Is the G5 case small?
Is the G5 case missing air vents?
Have you ever used a Mac?
but most computers from Dell sound worse.
Most computers from Dell cost a fraction of the price.
The G4 QS or MD had noise problems, but most computers from Dell sound worse.
It of course depends on what model you have and also what video card one has chosen. A Dell Dimension with a gaming video card is going to be far noisier system than the Optiplex line with a passively-cooled video option, especially the very quiet small-form factor chassis. (Not that Dell doesn’t have their own hardware “issues”, believe me, but that’s an entirely different discussion for some other time perhaps.)
Nice rant, but why didn’t you read the whole argument first?
Oh right. So anyone who describes Apple’s products the way that they actually are is having a rant. You’ve managed to completely redefined the definition of that word.
Or, you could just accept that you’ve lost and Apple have produced some junk.
Where do I say that everyone should reapply their thermal paste?
I didn’t say that you’d said something about reapplying thermal paste. You wrote this:
Both designs are very efficient at removing heat IF ASSEMBLED CORRECTLY.
So either Apple have to assemble them correctly, or we have to do it for them. Even then though, there is ample evidence from people that have tried that it makes little difference. The Core Duo is simply a hot processor and Apple have failed to build a chassis that will handle it.
I know they get hot, you didn’t have to tell me that. It’s what this thread is about, remember?
They get excessively hot, beyond any other laptop or notebook I have ever seen (and that’s saying a lot). As such they are simply cheap junk that Apple has cobbled together, and not the finished product that we pay Apple to make (have a good look at some of the other problems on appledefects.com). On top of that, they are potentially a bit of a hazard in some circumstances. Instead of thinking ahead and producing a solid bit of kit Apple are cutting costs and coverering their asses.
It’s not that hard to understand. I don’t know how I can make this more clear for you.
Apple have produced a pile of junk that isn’t worth the money by any stretch of the imagination. It isn’t hard to understand.
And yet another rant. Where do you find the time to pick apart posts like that.
Look, my MBP runs cool. I can keep it on my lap for extended periods of time with 2 maxed out cores and with an appreciable load on the graphics card.
What conclusions can I draw other than that there’s nothing wrong with the design?
Do you expect me to adjust my opinion because some people who never even touched one of these machines think they know more about thermal dynamics than a company that has been selling laptops for more than twenty years? You have got to be kidding.
> Do you expect me to adjust my opinion because some people
> who never even touched one of these machines
I’m starting to think you are the one who doesn’t actually have one of these machines if you are seriously trying to claim that it runs cool even with both cores maxed out.
> think they know more about thermal dynamics than a company that
> has been selling laptops for more than twenty years? You have got
> to be kidding.
Keep in mind that this is the same company that decided that cooling fans were asthetically unpleasing, so Steve Jobs insisted that the engineers who made the Apple III could not use one. Result? Machiness that ran so hot the motherboards warped and the chips popped out of the sockets after awhile.
So please… It’s not like Apple doesn’t have a history of being so concerned about asthetics that they give function a back seat and their machines overheat. Apple has a history of cooling problems.
“I’m starting to think you are the one who doesn’t actually have one of these machines if you are seriously trying to claim that it runs cool even with both cores maxed out.”
I do. It does.
“Apple III”
Yes, how time flies.
I have an older 12″ iBook, and I use this:
http://www.macally.com/spec/specialties/accessories/icepad2.html
Best $30 bucks you’ll ever spend. Works great when you work on a table, it elevates the notebook screen. I’ve used it with my 14″ work Notebook (a Dell) and it works just fine. Keeps the machine cool and the lap
User: “How do I get Quake 3 to run in Linux?”
Zealot: “Oh that’s easy! If you have Redhat, you have to download quake_3_rh_8_i686_010203_glibc.bin, then do chmod +x on the file. Then you have to su to root, make sure you type export LD_ASSUME_KERNEL=2.2.5 but ONLY if you have that latest libc6 installed. If you don’t, don’t set that environment variable or the installer will dump core. Before you run the installer, make sure you have the GL drivers for X installed. Get them at [some obscure web address], chmod +x the binary, then run it, but make sure you have at least 10MB free in /tmp or the installer will dump core. After the installer is done, edit /etc/X11/XF86Config and add a section called “GL” and put “driver nv” in it. Make sure you have the latest version of X and Linux kernel 2.6 or else X will segfault when you start. OK, run the Quake 3 installer and make sure you set the proper group and setuid permissions on quake3.bin. If you want sound, look here [link to another obscure web site], which is a short HOWTO on how to get sound in Quake 3. That’s all there is to it!”
User: “How do I get Quake 3 to run in Windows?”
Zealot: “Oh God, I had to install Quake 3 in Windoze for some lamer friend of mine! God, what a ******* mess! I put in the CD and it took about 3 minutes to copy everything, and then I had to reboot the ******* computer! Jesus Christ! What a retarded operating system!”
Just asking, because maybe I’m missing something: This is related to the subject of the article how ?
More on topic: I wasn’t aware, what far reaching consequences the distinction between a “notebook” and a “laptop” can have, since (being a german native speaker) I thoght it is commen sense to use this two terms more or less synonymously, funny 😉
Edit : Typo corrected
Edited 2006-06-17 13:13
This is why I don’t buy Apple computers. There is always some kind of major flaw in their hardware that compromises the quality. Remember the Macintosh that was square ‘the cube’ it had no fan and was prone to overheating. Their products look so nice but I would rather not sacrifice performance and annoying quirky problems for beauty.
To be fair, it’s not always. The current run of PowerMacs are just about perfect, as are the Intel iMacs and Mac Minis. Of course, these designs are quite mature (the PowerMac is more or less unchanged since 2003), so Apple has ironed out the quirks over several revisions.
They had either a 450 or 550 MHz G4 in it – do you really think ‘overheating’ is an issue with these chips, despite being passively cooled? Let me give you a hint: it isn’t. Folks were putting CPU upgrade boards with twice that clock speed in these computers without problems. The reason they failed in the marketplace is that they were relatively expensive.
Please don’t troll.
First of all, I find it hard to trust a site dedicated to finding defects in hardware from a specific vendor – it could easily seem the motivation for running such a site would not be entirely altruistic devotion to consumer rights.
Second, I want to remind everyone that a laptop (or notebook, the two are synonyms no matter what Apple’s marketing department says) doesn’t have a “major hardware flaw” because it heats up to an uncomfortable level. Or rather, if it did, then every laptop out there contains major hardware flaws.
Personally, I own a PowerBook G4 15″, which _does_ get pretty hot if I’m doing something very CPU-intensive. I haven’t seen a single laptop (or other computer, for that matter) yet that didn’t.
My PB, however, *is* the first I’ve seen that could do anything remotely intensive without bursting out in a cacaphony of fan noise!
It may be that the MacBook(Pro)s get even hotter yet, but it seems to me the real ‘problem’ lies somewhere else. It appears there are a lot of people out there who, for some reason or another, really can’t stand Apple, and as such will go to great lengths critisizing their products, maybe without even having tested them for themselves. These are the people that would run a site named “appledefects.com”, and if that is indeed the case, I find that very childish.
People in general need to grow up, but Apple-flamers need it the most. It’s almost as childish as the Microsoft-flamers over in the Linux camp.
– Simon
> Second, I want to remind everyone that a laptop (or notebook,
> the two are synonyms no matter what Apple’s marketing
> department says) doesn’t have a “major hardware flaw” because
> it heats up to an uncomfortable level. Or rather, if it did, then
> every laptop out there contains major hardware flaws.
Find me any other laptop in the world that heats up to only 5 to 10 degrees below the boiling point of water under high loads, and then we will talk about whether Apple’s laptops run too hot.
Edited 2006-06-17 15:19
> It appears there are a lot of people out there who, for some reason
> or another, really can’t stand Apple, and as such will go to great
> lengths critisizing their products, maybe without even having
> tested them for themselves.
Wrong! There are a lot of people out there who are PISSED OFF that they spend $2500 USD on a comptuter which clearly has widespread design and or manufacturing flaws, and for which Apple is deying any problems exist.
When you spend $2500 on a computer, and you pay a premium price, you have a right to better customer service that Apple is giving their customers.
> It’s almost as childish as the Microsoft-flamers over in the
> Linux camp.
There is nothing at all childish about people who spend $2500 on a computer getting frustrated that it is unsuited for its intended purpose, and that Apple is treating their customers like crap and refusing to make things right.
OMG.
You have followed my post template almost to the letter
http://www.osnews.com/permalink.php?news_id=14918&comment_id=134471
Classic. You my friend, are a genius
I was troubleshooting a Dell and an HP the other day at work, and they were both pippin’ hot!
I use my PowerBook as a “laptop” (even as I am writting), and it is fine.
Of course, a few hours ago when I was playing Halo, I had it on my desk because this puppy got really hot. It all depends on what you are doing, and how much work the computer is doing – the more work, the more the heat! it is as simple as that.
Technology has not advanced sufficiently to be able to put a desktop into a portable form without the heat. I dont understand what the miscommunication is. Do consumers REALLY think that they can take a laptop and do photoshop, imovie, iDVD and play games while having this device on this laps?
You know, I ALWAYS considered a laptop and a notebook to be the same thing. IIRC the term came about as portable machines(laptops) decreased in size, and became termed as notebooks andf then at some point in time the distinction blurred. Especially between those who were old enough to have lived with the larger variants of notebooks.
Now on to the main point WTF is the purpose of a small portable computer it it CANNOT safely be used sitting your lap. FFS that makes it a deficient desktop, rather than any sort of portable!, as hell the mini or the imac are nearly(or similarly) as portable only lacking in battery power, and hamstrung by the same craptacular integrated graphics.
If this is going to be Apple’s answer, they had damned well better be coughing up a tablet in the near future as they have all the ingredients(OS, touchscreen, handwritten character recog, etc.), just not the form factor.
Maybe that is why there is a thriving market for laptop heat shield devices. Some of them even have small battery powered fans..but than again..most here know that. Personally, I have one I have used with my iBook since a week after I purchased it. Its kind of annoying to use.. but much better than roasting my..well you know.
I haven’t read all the comments yet (I just got back from work) but my take is this.
I have a MacBook Pro, loaned from Apple, for review (expect that review coming week, it will be written by me as well as Adam, who owns a MBP for himself). As far as I’m concerned, a laptop that runs this hot should NEVER have made it to the store. At normal usage, which for me is browsing, IMing, and emailing (I don’t do more with computers), after an hour or so, you cannot touch the underside of the MBP for too long; it won’t burn you or anythig, it just hurts. Literally.
And that, for me, is unnacceptable. End of story.
Apple wouldn’t know proper cooling and airflow if it started dancing atop a table naked singing “Oh what a big cooling fan I am!”
203F… wow, that’s what? 20 degrees over the hysterisis point for the Core Duo?
Lands sake, I get twitchy when my A64 laptop breaks 120F
But then, we are talking about a company that put insulating foam over the cpu, northbridge and GPU in the G3 and G4 iBooks (without heat sinks at ALL), then hid them under two layers of RF shielding (not to beat a dead horse)
Ah, that Apple Kooality (with a capital K) of manufacturing and engineering people tout so highly… Usually people who know jack about engineering and quality… There’s a reason people who KNOW engineering and manufacturing look at Apple products and go “Who made this for them? Fisher Price?”
I’ve got another pretty funny example of Apple’s marketing not jiving with reality. I was waiting for my turn at the genius bar at my local Apple store, and eavesdropping on the conversation the guy next to me was having with his “genius”. He complained that when he’d take his iPod running, it’d skip and eventually freeze. The guy said that all hard drive players would do that, and if he wanted to run with it, he should get a Nano or Shuffle, because they’re solid-state. Then the guy goes “but on your commercials you show those shadow people dancing with these things!” I nearly cracked up, because it was so true. The latest iPod ad has a shadow-girl holding a white iPod (obviously not a Nano or Shuffle), in her hand while pumping it up and down. The “genius’s” reaction was priceless — he froze for several seconds, because restating his previous point, and ignoring the guy’s point completely.
…somebody out there name ONE Core Duo based notebook computer that doesn’t get hot…
Well…anybody? I can’t hear you…
>> ..somebody out there name ONE Core Duo based notebook computer that doesn’t get hot…
Well…anybody? I can’t hear you…
Lenovo 3000N, idle at 107F, peak of 140F
TOSHIBA Tecra A6, idle at 110F, peak of 144F
Acer TravelMate TM4674, idle at 104F, peak of 150F
Golf Alpha Foxtrot Charlie.
Those numbers are pretty useless without knowing the ambient temp. My Macbook is idling today at 125F, but it’s also a 91F day in northern Virginia today. In comparison, when I was using it at the Apple Store the other day (which was probably ~60F), it was idling at around 108F.
I don’t have a MAC and even if I had one I would use it on my lap. If I had to place my laptop/notebook on a desk, I will use a DESKTOP. This is simply a case of design flaw.
I don’t have a MAC and even if I had one I would use it on my lap. If I had to place my laptop/notebook on a desk, I will use a DESKTOP. This is simply a case of design flaw.
=====================
What does the title have to do with the topic?
Some people have defended Apple on here, why does that make them a zealot rather then just finding the product suitable
The sad thing about this site, is that people are quick to shout zealot even when there has being no evidence of such conduct and seemingly think by making such a pronoucement makes any argument put forward suddenly void. These people who shout Zealot really need to come up with a better argument rather then just shouting witch or red when they disagree with someone else – in other words get a bloody life mate
What’s the issue,people shouting zealot to soon or Mac’s getting to hot?
Or isn’t there anything wrong with the working temperature of a Macbook Pro?
Why post with the title ZEALOTS suck when there has being no evidence of zealot behaviour anywhere its a easy way to get a jibe in on people who use another platform and when they have not the means to produce a suitable argument
<sarcasm>
they bitched about heat from PPC…
</sarcasm>
Edited 2006-06-17 16:43
for the naysayers, the macbooks and macbook pros get very hot, youre obviously very uninformed.
several websites document this, including apples own discussion boards.
http://www.intelmactemps.com has an extensive database with several users reporting temps into the 90’s.
appledefects.com has reports and screenshots of a macbook getting 94 degrees celcius under 100% cpu load, completely unacceptable temperatures.
http://www.appledefects.com/images/94celcius-macbook.jpg
i love when ignorant people stand up for a company only because theyre apple nationalists
The new Apple MacBooks: Well, at least they don’t spontaneously-combust (yet). And they can double as spacer heaters. And I would be amused enough to buy a product called called the iMmolation.
Think Different.
I would *love* to see IBM bring out a laptop using the low-power/low-heat G5, which then turns out NOT to be a heater, like my MacBook Pro.
I’d so send an email of appreciation to Hannibal.
I would *love* to see IBM bring out a laptop using the low-power/low-heat G5, which then turns out NOT to be a heater, like my MacBook Pro.
Especially now that we know that the G5, although not a true match for an x86 processor in many performance areas, is not a terribly bad processor at all. It’s OS X making it look far worse than it really is.
…I wake up and hear on radio room temperature superconductors were invented…
Who uses a laptop on their lap? I’ve tried to do that, its next to impossible; unless you have an incredibly small torso, and very long legs, its next to impossibly to get into a position where you can have the laptop on your lap, accurately type, and not crook your neck when looking at the screen.
If I wish to use a laptop, I either place it on a table, or I cross my legs, and place it in the middle so that there is adequate air flow under the laptop.
Oh, and as for ‘heat issues’, I had an iBook G3 600Mhz model, are there people who honestly think that even that wouldn’t get a little warm? of course it did, it was quite warm, but at the same time, I wasn’t stupid enough to have it sitting on my nake skin.
I’m sorry but it’s a “laptop”. You put it on your lap and you type on the keys – why in hell would you waste 3 grand on a macbook pro when I could get a sweet desktop machine for that price?
To overcome the “heat” issue – I’ve been putting thermal grease on my lap with the “laptop” on my lap where it belongs.
Actually I have a 17″ Powerbook and really use it more as a “portable desktop” than a “laptop”. I wanted desktop like features with a good sized screen that runs OS X that I can carry between work and office. It works great for that. I would need two desktops to get that functionality and even then the whole synching thing would be a pain.
On occasions where I’ve had it on my lap, it’s usually running on battery in “reduced” power mode so heat doesn’t really seem to be a problem.
In general too I find – playing WoW – it runs hot, running Word, it’s pretty cool.
I’ve had TWO Macbooks (non-pro) and neither of them got as hot as people are complaining about. I had it sitting on my lap while encoding a dvd in iDVD and it was fine.
I can see how the Pro version might put more heat out of the bottom though, being all aluminium.
Of course, I’m not waiting for my 3rd replacement Macbook from apple. It does have quality control issues, but heat hasn’t been one of them for me, so far
What I would like to see is a decent survey of EXTERNAL temperatures rather than see a lot of potentially unreliable (and not particularly relevant) core temperature readings.
The core temperature doesn’t necessarily translate to a specific external temperature – that depends on the efficiency of the cooling system.
So please, if you want to complain, and be taken seriously, document the core and external temperatures and then have both of those figures to present as proof of your claims…
(i’m not a fanboy – I just don’t like seeing any product get bashed to hell and back without decent proof…)
The core temperature doesn’t necessarily translate to a specific external temperature – that depends on the efficiency of the cooling system.
My desktop cPU temp is never more than 38C,while the MB temp never exeeds 26 C.Regardless the workload.
I guess Steve wants total commitment ( The company logo burned into your lap).
Am i the only person without heat problems on his macbook? I mean it gets hot but never hot enough to burn–the hottest I’ve seen it is about 70 degrees after heavy, heavy CPU use. Otherwise it idles at about 45.
Am i the only person without heat problems on his macbook? I mean it gets hot but never hot enough to burn–the hottest I’ve seen it is about 70 degrees after heavy, heavy CPU use. Otherwise it idles at about 45.
Still too hot in a laptop, and especially in a laptop marketed more as a consumer product than anything else. Look at how thin the thing is. Either you’re going to need a very cool processor, or you’re going to need an incredible cooling system and a design that will insulate the rest of the Macbook from the heat of the processor. There have been some reports of batteries swelling and part of the chassis under the heat.
The bar for Apple is set quite high as far as I’m concerned. If they want me to pay top money then I want to feel no heat whatsoever coming from the thing under any circumstances – and I expect them to test those circumstances first rather than expecting me to pay and test it for them.
ANOTHER ephen BASH apple ARTICLE…YAY
If Apple have released a product that cannot perform the function it is “implied” to perform, then they deserve everything they get.
This is not the first time Apple’s quality control has been found wanting (iPod screens, the Cube).
One person responded that it is similar to car advertisements that show pro drivers on a track; I think most people would *expect* their laptop/notebook to run at a temperature that makes it possible to use on their laps.
I don’t think many car buyers feel the same way about doing the Nürburgring in 12 minutes in their new Camry …
Remember that woman that burned her hoo-ha with the cup of coffee from McDonalds?
I dont think this would be the exact same thing, but if your slow enough not to feel something HOT burning your Johnson, then you had it coming….
I mean dang, products exist that help with this heat situation….
http://raindesigninc.com/ilap.html
Laptop, Notebook, Portable Computer, just remember…
Hack with your clothing on….please…
oh, and Intel/Apple could make a cooler running processor
Edited 2006-06-20 23:28