This is an article about my experiences with Slackware 9.1, a distribution of Linux that I find enjoyable, along with programs that I find useful and enjoyable.
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Yes I agree with you about standarizing things instead of putting everything in one place. Currently the lack of standards is what drives people (including me) away from Linux. it confuses people. I haven't try Slackware, but thingking about trying it in a close time. I feel thankfull for this Article because I belive that it would indeed help me in setting up a great Slackware box.
Good article but tbh I think you might have missed the point of Slackware - the reason Dropline isn't included etc. is because Slackware includes things as the developer's intended them to be - they don't change the menu in KDE/Gnome or set a 'Slackware' theme a la Blue Curve.
At the end of the day Slackware can make an awesome desktop OS but you're right - it takes work to get there. I for one would hate to see this change though, Slackware isn't meant to be (and hopefully never will be) bogged down with GUI config apps and "holding your hand" mentality. It's simple in the true meaning of the word - no gumff. It's a geek's OS and hopefully it always will be.
As you mentioned though - it would be sweet to have ALSA unmuted and to have OSS removed completely 
Took me ages to work out why my sound wasn't working after upgrading from 9.0 to 9.1
so, basically, this is a good article. 5 pages of text, this guy really took some time to write down his experiences. good work, thumbs up!
what i don't get:
why is he using slackware at all? slackware is known to be very basic, without fancy gui-configuration tools and stuff. patrick volkerding does not need to work (for example) on the"kernel-update does not update my lilo"-thing, because slackware users should know what they do. when i update my kernel in fedora via yum, my grub gets updated automatically, that's why i use fedora. it makes things easier. slackware on the other hand, is for experts. the author basically IS expert enough, because otherwise he would not have been able to solve the lilo problem or set up his printer etc.
so, basically my point is: slackware is good as it is. a distro for experts who are able to deal with editing conf-files. slackware does not want to get simpler. that's the market for fedora, suse and mandrake. slackware just keeps doing ITS stuff, and (though i don't use it), it is reported to be pretty good at it.
regards,
marillchen
... who really care what he wants? He wants eg OpenOffice and I think I can d/l and install it myself, so no space is wasted for OpenOffice.
Please include instead postfix, amavisd-new, spamassassin, ldap, kerberos, x, y ... z!!!
You know what I mean.
Slackware is a very good base for everyone, who want to makes a really _P_ersonal _C_omputer with Linux on top.
Everyone can follow his interests, don't need to begin from A like LFS and Gentoo and don't need a "hummer" (as he says about Ximina Evolution) like Fedora, Suse and Mandrake...
Thanks - I've been thinking of going Slack for a while now (from the all-embracingness of SuSE and YaST - been on that line for 5 yr mow but have a few quibbles). You've answered a few points - and brought up a few more, so I'm still thinking. Particularly about the dreaded OSS - have had battles with that in the past and embraced ALSA with open arms as soon as it was working.
Slackware 3.4 was my first linux... it did try 3.6, but haven't tried it after. That some years ago.
What linux need to get into the desktop/common people, is
-standards, not just one web browser but
1. Install program.
2. Have the same files and directories one problem that you find is like this http://macromedia.rediris.es/rep_ri.html how many hours do macromedia spend on supporting distros??
3. Common configures tools. When I read one manual for setting up a program, it must work on linux (linux is all distros) and you have this lpi (http://www.lpi.org/en/lpic.html) and http://www.redhat.com/training/rhce/courses/ redhat and linux+ and sagre (?) well the thing is that if you an rhce and learned to setup samba by there gui, you cant find the same gui on mandrake and debian don't have a gui too for it.
If you have a look at distrowatch "Currently, there are a total of 280 Linux distributions in the database." [1]
What's wrong with linux then??
[1] http://www.distrowatch.com/stats.php
btw: "You can edit your httpd.conf directly in Webmin and also restart the service right from your browser (http://localhost:10000)" use https:
There is missing closing of a <a href> tag in the "In the beginning" paragraph (link to Distrowatch) making large part of article unavailable until you copy link to notepad.
No thanks. I really don't want to spend hours trying to get a wheel mouse working.
Regarding the standardisation .. KMail and Konq both uses KParts (integration into the KDE desktop) and have a few years on their back - which Thunderbird and Firebird does not, they're still in beta ...
Regarding the productivity packages, the KOffice folks are changing direction a bit - their old standard XML document format is to be replaced by the OO.O sxw ....
But it is foolish using ressources on developing the same applications in two parallel desktop environments. When you look at the progress they've made - it makes you wonder, what miracales they could have achieved working on the same railroad. But lets see what kind of bridge SUSE/Novell is able to build (IMO the course of SUSE the last few years has been standadization ... that is the golden way).
Fvwm2 and Fvwm95 together take about 2MB, WindowsMaker (my default desktop btw) 2.5MB, so ropping them does not save a lot of space. What Slack has done makes a lot more sense: move the two fat desktops Gnome and KDE to the second CD. I think they should drop Netscape 7.1 since Mozilla 1.6 is already included. And dropping Fvwm95 is actually not a bad idea: the project seems almost dead, and Fvwm2 can do everything it can. Better replace it with a maintained alternative, like IceWM.
I have tried many distro's (debian, lycoris,gentoo,RH,SuSE,...the big ones...even bsd's) but in the end I go back to Slackware. The reason is because I find I learn more about managing a system and how to interface with a program since there is no GUI front end. I agree with the earlier comment that there does need to be a standard in installing app yet I disagree with the GUI apps on all distros. I see 2 reasons for this.
1.) THose apps are what you guy into in commerical Linux..along with support.
2.) I use slackware cause its not bloated with stuff I don't want unless I want it. This lack there off makes distros distros and so on and so forth.
There are somethings that I wish can be worked into the system. Like mouseconfig having a wheel option or something to that effect. Just the small things that have been the norm in the computer industry which isn't there. THOUGH!, one thing I have to mention to is people voicing thoughts of lacking features but then do not try to contribute any type of time to fix those things. Myself realise this and I have been working on trying to get a couple of small programs into slackware to help the "END DESKTOP USER".
But to anyone wanting to try slack. TRY IT! worse comes to worse you go back to your old distro and that is what Linux is all about..choice :-D.
The web browser standards is not as bad as it might seem. In reality you only have two browsers, Mozilla and Konqueror. Galeon, Epiphany, Firebird are all based off of the gecko rendering engine so your not getting to much duplication of effort. These derivates are basically just putting on their own front-ends. The KDE guys are doing their own thing along with Apple. There are more important standards that need to be addressed than web browsers. Such as better interop between KDE and Gnome, which freedesktop.org and OSDL-desktop are addressing.
As far as your package management comments, Gentoo does do exactly what you were talking about - not with bittorrent though. It's source based and you can customize your builds through what is called a USE variable. USE variable basically just let you do what configure lets you do by specifying what you do and don't want to build into the program.
Slackware was on of the first distros I used before I got frustrated into LFS and finally Gentoo. The reasons, I have no regrets abandoning slackware are plentiful. I shall proceed to list them.
Documentation
Slackware's documentation is appauling to say the least. Documentation should exist for nearly every potential user function. Take a look at Gentoo's documentation page, and you'll be impressed.
How to setup your desktop
How to setup your printer
How to setup samba
How to setup your firewall
How to setup Java
How to setup to setup ALSA (sound configuration)
How to setup a secure gentoo box
How to setup a mail server
How to setup an OpenMosix cluster
How to setup your nvidia drivers
...to mention a few!
Compared to Gentoo, Slackwares documentation is scanty. As a result setting up and managing a slackware box for extended periods of time is painful.
Package Management
It's either non-existent in slackware, or the available ones hold no water. I tried installing GNOME on slackware and it only brought me close to tears. It was diabolically frustrating for no sound reason. Why should I bother haunting dependencies down all over the internet, when an intelligent package manage will not only do that for me, but will install the package in a consistent manner over my file system.
Today, I have over 11 Desktop Environments that I can switch to on the fly and a multitude of packages that were correctly installed effortlessly, thanks to intelligent package managing. On Slackware, I could hardly get GNOME going, and every time I had to install a package, it was as if I was preparing for war. No, swaret isn't robust!
Security
Not many people take security seriously, but it is one of the only reasons I use a source based distro. Where is the hardened-Slackware? Does one exist? Where are the Slackware Security guides? Do they exist? How do I go about PaX enabling Slackware? How about SELinux and Grsecurity patches for Slackware? Do they exist? The last time I checked, the answer was no. Hence slackware is automatically eliminated as a secure operating system for servers or workstations in any serious environment. If you are running a server without SELinux/Grsecurity/PaX/Propolice to mention a few, you are calling for it! Don't make me imagine what I would have to do to get a secure slackware box up and running.
Unfortunately, most of the problems the author encountered are slackware specific and rightly so. Updating and maintaining slackware is a pain, because it lacks a robust package manager. And setting up Slackware is a herculian task because its documentation is lackluster.
That about sums up the reason, Slackware remains a no go area for me. I've used and I cherish its simplicity, but I can't help express my frustrations at how Slackware makes easy things seem hard.
I'll probably get modded down for this, but this is a sincere observation and experience I've had with Slackware. I mean, installing packages is a "one liner" is almost every mordern distro I know but Slackware, is on the verge of perfecting. Yet, Slackware is supposedly one of the oldest Linux distros. Unfortunately, it seems Slackware is resistant to change, and positive ones at that.
For the record I love slackware and still have it on my work desktop and other assorted servers at work. It just works. That said, I also moved my home desktop to gentoo over the weekend.
Documentation
Slackware's documentation is appauling to say the least. Documentation should exist for nearly every potential user function. Take a look at Gentoo's documentation page, and you'll be impressed.
I have to agree there. Gentoo's documentation is great. Probably part of the reason of Slackware's lack of docs is that slack has been around for so long that the old-schoolers just already "know" how to mess around with /etc to configure stuff. I like the env-update feature of gentoo. When you talk about gentoo documentation don't forget the 800+ people that are on #gentoo at irc.freenode.net at any one time and also the incredible forums. For a fairly recent distro, gentoo seems to be gathering a lot of followers and your questions will be answered promptly on the forums.
Package Management
It's either non-existent in slackware, or the available ones hold no water. I tried installing GNOME on slackware and it only brought me close to tears. It was diabolically frustrating for no sound reason. Why should I bother haunting dependencies down all over the internet, when an intelligent package manage will not only do that for me, but will install the package in a consistent manner over my file system.
That's why you use swaret to handle your dependencies and better yet use dropline to install gnome. I hear there is a slapt-get, but I haven't used it.
One of the reasons people are doing double work in developing the same (kind of) application twice, are the toolkits. With QT and GTK around, people will always have to choose between two apps. Gnome and KDE people should settle upon one toolkit. (And personnally, I think they should go for QT, since this is widely portable to other platforms)
Oh, and for a secretary, Linux is also about choice: doing the things she is supposed to do or being fired ... In business you only need one environment, one office product, ... Linux should really look at OSX for that, or even towards Windows
All that software is available on the net right? When you untar/gzip them they probably have a "README' & "INSTALL" file right? Problem with most people is they need there hand held and can't read a readme.
Before you try and tell me I don't understand Gentoo, I have it running on sevreal box's includeing Sun Ultra 10, 60, sb100 and many others. So don't go there. I just fine Slackware to be my favorite on my main system. ;-)
SElinux/Pax blah, blah & blah werent invented on Gentoo and yes, you can find doc's out there that show you how to install it. Of course you could always look at the web sites & readme's, those always help.
I use swaret but the gentoo posters might be interested in this project since it is a port of emerge/portage for Slackware:
http://emerde.freaknet.org/
Lumberg,
I'm really not trying to turn this into a Slackware vs Gentoo royal rumble. I don't believe Slackware should aim to be Gentoo and vice versa. I'm just highlighting what I perceive to be Slackwares' weak points.
You mentioned Swaret, I've used it, and my conclusion is that it is still at it's infancy and not nearly as robust other well known package managers. Believe me, I'm being kind with these statements.
If anything, Slackware should at least focus on its security department. It is embarrassing that one of the oldest Linux distribution doesn't have a hardened channel. As an experienced Linux geek, I can deal with the poor documentation and absent package manager, however the absent security features is unforgivable.
Hardcore Unix administrators will pass on Slackware just because of that unexplainable glitch, despite the popular misconceptions.
The only standard I would agree with is the Filesystem Hierarchy Standard (FHS). No they don't need to agree on one browser, Gnome vs. KDE, etc. What makes a GNU/Linux system special are the choices that are available. Regarding distributions, if you don't like the package manager, GUI, etc. then you have alternative choices to pick from. Don't like Slackware, then use another distro. Everyone talks about how my distro has this, my distro does that, yours doesn't. So what! The beauty of a GNU/Linux system is that it gives you a choice. Windows does not. GNU/Linux is not for everyone, neither is Windows. Who cares if it is accepted or not as a desktop OS my the masses. It's all about having fun! Who cares if Slackware lacks documentation that the Gentoo folks have. If you use Slackware and can configure it then you don't need the extra documentation. If you prefer to have your hand held when running a distribution, then Slackware is not for you.
-Slackware user since v3.3
First, I don't think openoffice should come bundeld in a standard distro. Openoffice adds about 150MB. If I don't want openoffice, then I shouldn't have to download it, or install it.
I agree with the article, duplication of applications such as browsers, does not serve a purpose other than creating a clutterd, confused, and bloated distro.
My experience with slackware:
- installing dropline-gnome was a cinche, download, then enter two lines, something like:
installpkg dropline-gnome . ..
install dropline-line
I just worked.
- Seems impossible to install gnucash.
- The wheel on my mouse still doesn't work.
- CUPS didn't work at all, I just get an error message.
- I don't understand the reasoning of having sound muted.
- Lilo wouldn't install, I had to boot from floppy and do a liloconf.
- I have Win2K installed on the same system. The windows gui is much more snappy than gnome. Gnome blurs and leaves trails.
- Plays DVDs very well, better than windows, IMO.
- During the install, I specifically chose no games, but with gnome, I get about 15 games, like it or not.
Hardcore Unix administrators will pass on Slackware just because of that unexplainable glitch, despite the popular misconceptions.
Slackware ships with vanilla upstream packages as much as possible. No security patches will be included until they are in in the stock kernel on www.kernel.org. Hardcore Unix administrators have to judge for themselves what kind of security patches they deem worthwile and apply them. Remember, not every security related change is actually an improvement. There's an interesting thread on Slashdot about Slackware not using PAM.
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=99379&threshold=1&comme...
A quote from OpenSSH developer Damien Miller:
I'm surprised that the major distributions haven't moved on to something more sane. It's good that that Slackware, at least, has demonstrated some critical thinking and has not just mindlessly followed the flock.
About your Gnome dependency problems, I never encounter them, maybe because I always have the l/ directory installed. When I wanted to test Gnome or KDE, I just did a installpkg gnome/*z and installpkg kde/*z and they worked fine. I didn't really like either, so I did a removepkg gnome/*z and kde/*z and they were gone. I
If you want everything to be turned on by default, out of the box, I don't see why you are using slackware. The day that slackware becomes the red hat clone that you want it to be and installs mod_php, openoffice, and all that bloat by default is the day I switch to BSD.
First you go ahead and disclaim your own article with the go ahead and try something else, choice is what makes Linux great bit. Then in the last two pages of your article you rant about Linux distros shipping with more than one web browser, etc???? I don't get it.
You do know that you don't have to, and it isnt even reccomended to, install every package on the disks? The menu options are very easy to use.
Also, your post-install installer tool, have you heard about pkgtool that comes with slackware?
MySQL worked fine for me out of the box, sure you have to create the metadb and set up your user, but don't you have to do that with any MySQL setup?
Can I reccomend MEPIS to you? It's a really good distro, and it sounds like just what you are looking for.
In the article the Gentoo package management system, portage, is mentioned, and... yes, it's what you would like Slackware to do: it downloads the source code, compiles and installs the program, manages dependences and does a great job, overall.
I have tried Mandrake and Debian, and switched to Gentoo last xmas. I have finally found my home in Linux, too.
Anyway, if you want a GUI-only, simple, not customizable Linux distribution, better forget Slack or Gentoo and try another one.
P.D. - Never had a problem with the mouse wheel 
Slackware ships with vanilla upstream packages as much as possible. No security patches will be included until they are in in the stock kernel on www.kernel.org. Hardcore Unix administrators have to judge for themselves what kind of security patches they deem worthwile and apply them. Remember, not every security related change is actually an improvement. There's an interesting thread on Slashdot about Slackware not using PAM.
What kind of security features do you think I'm talking about? I'm talking about patches that almost eliminate all sorts of memory corruptions like buffer overflows, stack overflow, stack smashing, race conditions, ipc vulnerabilities etc.
This isn't a judgment call, this is a necessity if you don't want your network to be hacked! I'm talking about reasonable default access control lists for Slackware that enable chroot restrictions and address space modifications. These are mandatory if you run a server. You don't have any of those, you are not secure, and you can be hacked, period!
As for PAM it is only a superficial security barrier, even PAM needs to be patched with PaX to be somewhat safe and of course correctly configured.
First off, I'd say that less than 1% of servers, even in environments that are serious about security, have MAC patches. While I do think they should be used more often, they are definately not mandatory for security.
Second, EVERY good security person that I know, would rather install something themselves from source with a watchful eye than let emerge or RPM, or swaret, or even installpkg handle it.
It is no major accomplishment to get selinux, grsecurity, and their friends installed on slackware.
Second, EVERY good security person that I know, would rather install something themselves from source with a watchful eye than let emerge or RPM, or swaret, or even installpkg handle it.
It is no major accomplishment to get selinux, grsecurity, and their friends installed on slackware.
Agreed. Any admin worth his paycheck will handle security patches personally rather than trusting pre-built packages.
I agree standards are very much needed in Linux and other free desktops. Why is it that each web browser have to have a bookmark file format of its own? Almost all GUI toolkits makes it possible to set fonts and colors to its widgets why can't they use the same configuration file. After all a button is a button and a font is a font. Why can't I replace Nautilus with Konqueror in Gnome and still have the state, contents and function of my Trashcan preserved?
[start rant]
All modern desktops consists of windows filemanagers, trash, panels and menus. There is a window manager why are there not managers with standardized interfaces for the rest of the stuff. Developers doesn't seam to think that the window manager limits their creativity, why should it be any different in other areas.
If such things was in place it would be possible to create a consistent looking desktop based on application written in various toolkits. E.g. we could let the user chose if he wants the menus of his applications to appear on the top of each window as in windows or at the top of the screen like on a Mac, or perhaps in some other yet unseen way.
And it is not that new type of managers have apperad in the history of the X Window System. At the beginning nobdy used session managers, but today almost all modern applications are aware of them. So why not introduce some more manager standards that could make our desktops more consistent.
[end rant]
I also agree that installing more than one application of each application type by default makes a Linux distribution less usable.
There's NetBSD ports system for slackare (http://pkgsrc.org). From my point of view, it's better than emerde.
-[DkS]-
The author says he would like to see a feature in apt where the source code is downloaded and compiled. It already exists.
apt-get source <package> --compile
This will download the source file, and use dpkg-buildpackage to build a binary deb file. Using dpkg, you can install this deb and have dependencies resolved.
In addition, Debian has another tool in early development called auto-apt. Using auto-apt, one can try to compile a source tree and if any libraries and missing auto-apt will automatically retrieve them from your repositories. This means you can do a plain old tgz ,/configure && make && make install deal, but if you're missing any -dev packages, auto-apt will automatically grab them. Convenient, no?
Please do research. Otherwise, nice article. Although I don't know if a "lack of package management" is necessarily a "plus" of Slackware. Windows has a "lack of package management" too, but no one raves about it (at least no one I know).
- Seems impossible to install gnucash.
Install the gnucash slackware package from http://www.linuxpackages.net
- The wheel on my mouse still doesn't work.
Add "ZAxisMapping" "4 5" to the mouse input section of your XF86Config. That information is readily available on the Net
- CUPS didn't work at all, I just get an error message.
chmod +x /etc/rc.d/rc.cups
/etc/rc.d/rc.cups start
Again, readily available on the Net
- I don't understand the reasoning of having sound muted.
I'll give you that one. Thats a default behaviour of alsa after installation. I remember seeing the reasoning behind it in the past, but I don't think it was a good reason.
- Lilo wouldn't install, I had to boot from floppy and do a liloconf.
Never heard of lilo not installing during a Slackware install, unless there was a problem with the HD. Possible that you attempted an install on the bootable partition without it being marked as bootable. I always install to the mbr, but that's just me
- I have Win2K installed on the same system. The windows gui is much more snappy than gnome. Gnome blurs and leaves trails.
Don't blame gnome for that. That's a problem with your X setup, or the driver itself.
- Plays DVDs very well, better than windows, IMO.
Amen =)
- During the install, I specifically chose no games, but with gnome, I get about 15 games, like it or not.
There's a difference between BSD games and Gnome Games. I believe the description of the games packages specifically states BSD games like nethack, fortune, etc, and you still have the option to install / not install gnome games on CD 2
My $0.02 CDN
Quote: Although I don't know if a "lack of package management" is necessarily a "plus" of Slackware.
It's personal preference. In my opinion, while we have tons of distro's with amazing package managers, having one solid distro with none (or a very minimal one) is a plus.
Personally I can't stand to have anything administer my boxes but myself. I understand that other people don't feel this way, and like apt and portage, but I think the whole Linux community could benefit having one distro that doesn't rely on a package manager.
Quote: There's a difference between BSD games and Gnome Games. I believe the description of the games packages specifically states BSD games like nethack, fortune, etc, and you still have the option to install / not install gnome games on CD 2
He did a dropline gnome install. That's where gnome-games came from.
Seems like Eugenia is enjoying spring season
First off, I'd say that less than 1% of servers, even in environments that are serious about security, have MAC patches. While I do think they should be used more often, they are definately not mandatory for security.
???
I don't know who has been selling you those comforts. Did you read about Debian, Gentoo, etc server compromises? Chroot kits. Yes, simple chroot kits were used to perpetuate those breaches. Now if chroot restrictions and MACs were properly implemented, that would have been almost impossible because on well controlled systems, there is no root or superuser, or even if there is, the it is not all powerful and all knowing, it has restricted authorities. Again, I'm dumbfounded by your statement.
Second, EVERY good security person that I know, would rather install something themselves from source with a watchful eye than let emerge or RPM, or swaret, or even installpkg handle it.
You don't get the message I'm trying to convey, do you? Slackware doesn't provide the facility to patch each and every package from source like Gentoo/emerge does. There are no documentations, no packages, and no patches. Nadda, zilch, nothing! You want security, forget about slack. That's how bad it is.
It is no major accomplishment to get selinux, grsecurity, and their friends installed on slackware.
Who's talking about accomplishments? I'm talking about securing my workstation and network and my inability to do so with slackware. These aren't accomplishments, every administrator is mandated to secure his resources. Accomplishment??? It is a freaking missing security feature!
Agreed. Any admin worth his paycheck will handle security patches personally rather than trusting pre-built packages.
I don't use pre-built packages. I use only source based distros, again for security reasons. Read my earlier rant.
Um, are you sure you know what you are talking about? Chroot kits? Is this a real term? If so, please explain to me what it means. Do you mean rootkits? Do you know what chroot is? Chroot is a boon to security, not a vulnerability.
Slackware can be patched with selinux and grsecurity just as fine as Gentoo can. It just isn't done automatically and blindly. You can patch packages from source just fine with slackware.
Um, are you sure you know what you are talking about? Chroot kits? Is this a real term? If so, please explain to me what it means. Do you mean rootkits? Do you know what chroot is? Chroot is a boon to security, not a vulnerability.
Errr...meant to say rootkits.
Slackware can be patched with selinux and grsecurity just as fine as Gentoo can. It just isn't done automatically and blindly. You can patch packages from source just fine with slackware.
Hahaha...you got to be kidding me! Yeah, sure I can. All, I need to do is just patch my system, right? I don't think you understand the gravity or the amount of work that goes into testing, debuging and patching packages to comply with SELinux and grsecurity, etc. It's so tedious, that Gentoo, Red Hat, SUSE, Debian devote an entire team of security experts/developers to maintain their hardened branch, and of course make the deployment of those patches sane for their users.
Tell me, how do I go about Securing my slackware box, with those patches? I mean, where do I start?
>>Install the gnucash slackware package from http://www.linuxpackages.net<<
That's where I got it, it doesn't work. I've been fighting with this for some time. I'm not the only one.
>>Add "ZAxisMapping" "4 5" to the mouse input section of your XF86Config. That information is readily available on the Net<<
Okay. It seems there is always some configuration to do after the initial install with anything. No bash, I'm just relating my experience.
>>
chmod +x /etc/rc.d/rc.cups
/etc/rc.d/rc.cups start
<<
Thanks, will try it.
>>Never heard of lilo not installing during a Slackware install<<
No offense, but you must not have read too many slackware install forums. This is a very common problem, and has been for some time. BTW: I have installed several linux distros on my system, only slackware gives me this problem. Although, it's easy enough to fix.
>>Don't blame gnome for that. That's a problem with your X setup, or the driver itself.<<
Maybe, I think there are ways to speed up dropline-gnome, but I don't know how.
Slackware's documentation is appauling to say the least.
We are working on it: http://www.slackfiles.net/index.php
*sighs*
http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/gentoo-security.xml
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/hardened/
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/hardened/propolice.xml
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/hardened/grsecurity.xml
http://selinux.dev.gentoo.org/
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/hardened/selinux/selinux-x86-install....
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/hardened/selinux/selinux-quickstart.x...
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/hardened/selinux/selinux-policy.xml
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/hardened/selinux/selinux-faq.xml
http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/selinux-uml-guide.xml
Those links provide me with detailed and extensive documentation on how to implement, deploy and patch my a secure gentoo workstation or network.
Now, where are the Slackware security migration docs?
Speaking of standards - Why don't they make point releases standardized . Will they really jump from 9.1 to 10. Where do they get the math for That. Maybe it will be 9.6? Was there ever a 9.9 ?
Slackware should not have to have those docs because grsecurity and selinux are not related to slackware. This is much like slackware not including documentation for how to use OpenOffice. All the documentation that you need is available on the selinux and grsecurity sites. If you can't figure out how to implement it, maybe you should get a better sysadmin.
We all know that gentoo has gone above and beyond on documentation, and I commend them on that.
I fully agree with ponds; a good administrator should be able to secure a system perfectly by himself. If you don't, buy some good (O'Reilly) books about security. Learn how to secure a system (instead of relying on "secure" packages, or automatically applied kernel patches), and apply patches like grsecurity *when* you need them in a situation. Things like SELinux and grsecurity are perfectly documented...
If somebody is not able to secure a system by himself, he/she is not a good system administrator and should think twice about administrating cruscial production machines.
"I found myself really taking to XFCE, and I would probably use it exclusively for a while if I could have icons on my desktop"
You can use the Rox filer to manage the desktop and put icons on the XFce desktop.
If you have Rox installed - then in your $HOME$/.xfce/.xinitrc file comment out the xfdesktop line and insert:
rox --pinboard=PIN
Then on startup you can drag and drop program and directory icons from the Rox filer onto the destop.
I am long-time Slack user having started with 3.5 and installed everything inbetween.. My greatest satisfaction has been 8.1 which i have installed on 3 of my pcs.. I have tried Fedora, RH, Suse, Knoppix, Mandrake.. and only Knoppix is as easy to get going on my hardwares as Slackware.. But I cannot get GPSK31 to install on 9.0 or 9.1.. It has always compiled effortlessly on earlier versions.. AND the gtk fonts are way too small on mozilla and gaim. And cups doesnt work for me.. Perhaps I have a learning problem, but 8.1 just works better. My favorite Linux is 1. Slackware 8.1 and 2. Harddrive installed Knoppix.
Whats the point of complaining about to much choice if you did the full install?! Didnt you see that you can choose the packages you're likely to need up in front...
than again imo theres never to much choice only lack of confidence in making a choice
Slackware should not have to have those docs because grsecurity and selinux are not related to slackware.
I don't know who gave you the idea that grsecurity and selinux were related to any distro. As far as I know, both projects and distro agnostic.
This is much like slackware not including documentation for how to use OpenOffice.
How can you compared an entire infrastructure to a desktop application? Going by your logic, Slackware wouldn't have any documentation, as users would be reading README files, NEWS files and INSTALL.TXTs.
All the documentation that you need is available on the selinux and grsecurity sites.
Yeah, I guess Gentoo is just duplicating efforts.
If you can't figure out how to implement it, maybe you should get a better sysadmin.
Sure, and the better sysadmin will magically deploy a hardened-slackware box without docs!!!!! I guess I'm just dumb.
We all know that gentoo has gone above and beyond on documentation, and I commend them on that.
I doubt many people know that.
Thats what I just said, that its distro agnostic. SElinux and grsecurity should work on ANY distro without the distributor having to create a subdistro for it, and they do just fine on slackware.
Quote: Sure, and the better sysadmin will magically deploy a hardened-slackware box without docs!!!!! I guess I'm just dumb.
There are plenty of docs, at the grsecurity and selinux sites, so i dont see how this is relevant.
I fully agree with ponds; a good administrator should be able to secure a system perfectly by himself. If you don't, buy some good (O'Reilly) books about security. Learn how to secure a system (instead of relying on "secure" packages, or automatically applied kernel patches), and apply patches like grsecurity *when* you need them in a situation. Things like SELinux and grsecurity are perfectly documented...
Tell me, who do you secure a system against buffer overflows, stack overflow, stack smashing, ipc compromises, memory corruptions, root exploits, race conditions, to mention a few?
Since I really don't know how, you might as well begin to school me of how to secure a system "(instead of realying on "secure" packages, or automatically applied kernel patches)."
If somebody is not able to secure a system by himself, he/she is not a good system administrator and should think twice about administrating cruscial production machines.
Yeap, real admins don't need docs, right?
...a script that finds your dependencies, does all the downloading from the Torrent, does extraction (tar -jxvf packagename.tar.bz2) and then installation (./configure && make && make install). The source, once extracted, would have a file listing dependencies (or, better yet, there should be a way for a script to probe the source files to determine dependencies).
This is almost an exact description of the OneBase OLM installation process. Installing KDE, *from source*, compiled exactly for *my* machine is done by this command:
olm -s kde
And that's it! Of course, it is taking a really long time, because the computer is fetching each needed package from source, compiling it, and then moving to the next one. I could have used the binary command, and been up and running immediately, but I wanted to see what all the hoopla was about running a source-based distro was about.
I found myself really taking to XFCE, and I would probably use it exclusively for a while if I could have icons on my desktop.
Actually, adding desktop icons to XFCE isn't difficult at all. VECTOR Linux does this by using two programs: the DFM package, which adds the desktop icons themselves, and a customized XFCE package called xfbackground instead of xfdesktop so that the DFM packages work correctly. Not difficult at all to set up. Check the VL forums at http://www.vectorlinux.com/forum for more information.
Thats what I just said, that its distro agnostic. SElinux and grsecurity should work on ANY distro without the distributor having to create a subdistro for it, and they do just fine on slackware.
Theoretically, yes. Practically, no. Haven't you being listening to all I've been saying. Distros have teams dedicated to making these complex packages work for user deployment. You just don't go the selinux site or gresecurity site or pax site to download patches, read documentations, apply patches and expect things to work. More often than not more things will break than work on vanilla slack.
You need to recompile every package in your system among other things to take advantage of many of the security features I mentioned above. Apart from the fact that I don't know how humanly possible it is to recompile every slackware package from source, who do I go asking for help when something borks on my system? Or do I go googling for that too?
Tell me, who do you secure a system against buffer overflows, stack overflow, stack smashing, ipc compromises, memory corruptions, root exploits, race conditions, to mention a few?
Since I really don't know how, you might as well begin to school me of how to secure a system "(instead of realying on "secure" packages, or automatically applied kernel patches)."
Apply appropriate when they are needed? I don't see why they should be applied automatically. A good sysadmin can apply them himself when they are needed for the specific situation.
Whats the point of complaining about to much choice if you did the full install?! Didnt you see that you can choose the packages you're likely to need up in front...
than again imo theres never to much choice only lack of confidence in making a choice
I did the full install but I have also done the other install methods. I didn't mention that in the article so you have a valid point.
However, I stand by my "Express Install" option because, as I mentioned, I DO NOT WANT to do a full install, I want a good system set up WITHOUT HAVING TO BABYSIT the installation. I have better things to do than stare at the installer, waiting for the next prompt. I am always anxious to start USING my Slack box, not to be a slave to the installer
I won't dignify your "lack of confidence" statement with a response.
Thanks for the comments; I appreciate the thoughtful ones.
Quote: Theoretically, yes. Practically, no. Haven't you being listening to all I've been saying. Distros have teams dedicated to making these complex packages work for user deployment. You just don't go the selinux site or gresecurity site or pax site to download patches, read documentations, apply patches and expect things to work. More often than not more things will break than work on vanilla slack.
It works for me.
Quote: You need to recompile every package in your system among other things to take advantage of many of the security features I mentioned above. Apart from the fact that I don't know how humanly possible it is to recompile every slackware package from source, who do I go asking for help when something borks on my system? Or do I go googling for that too?
I have been compiling my entire slackware system from source for years. Here's a tip as to how its humanly possible: "./configure && make && make install"
Quote:
Slack works fine for me. All I've done is install dropline Gnome, which I don't use now cause I like XFCE better (it eats less proc).
Apply appropriate when they are needed? I don't see why they should be applied automatically.
What? There is nothing automatic about the process. It takes days to lock down a box, and weeks of continually testing each package in search of the optimal ACL or MAC permissions/roles. Do you have any idea how gruelsome the process can be? There is nothing automatic about it. I don't think you understand what hardened OS is all about.
There is not half-hearted attempts to security. You either go all the way, or you don't do it at all. This isn't a case by case scenario of what to secure and what not to. I suggest you read up on the links I provided to give you an idea of what security is all about. I think we are on different pages at the moment.
Needless to say, and based on my experience with Slackware, I confidently conclude that it isn't a choice for a secure/hardened box, period! No docs, No support, No patches, No packages, No package manager.
Geez root stop trolling. Why not go back to the gentoo forums and brag how openoffice opens 2 x 10^-9s faster than someone elses.
People use Slackware because they want a vanilla distro that is releavily easy to install, stable, and fast. So quit yer bitch'in.
It works for me.
What works? You have SElinux/Grsecurity/PaX? You have hardened gcc? What exactly works?
I have been compiling my entire slackware system from source for years. Here's a tip as to how its humanly possible: "./configure && make && make install"
Now, go back and recompile the whole system to make each package hardened and stack protected. I have better things to do with my time than manually recompile hundreds of packages, when my package manager can take care of the rigors for me.
Yeah, I just dont let the package manager install code from a tree that changes every day for me, because I care about security and don't feel like letting a program automatically run code from a repository thats already been hacked into at least once.
(^^---this is a blatant troll, I use gentoo just as much as I use slackware)
Seriously I think you are overestimating how difficult it is to build a hardened system from slackware. Sure it takes a while, but it gives you more security than letting portage do it for you.
Remember first you said it was impossible, then you said it was possible but there were no docs, now you say its just rigorous.
I've been using slackware on my personal box for several years now and it does its job perfectly. Slackware's goal is to provide you with a basic vanilla install and it achieves that goal perfectly. WOuld I use slackware on my production systems? It really depends on the usage of the server. All the servers I run use OpenBSD, a REAL secure OS.
If you cant read the docs distributed with most apps and can't type google.com in your browser slackware isn't for you, but for the experienced user it provides a vanilla, stable starting point from which to "build" upon. So please quit whining and making this a slackware vs gentoo article, they are both great distros with different goals.
Building Slackware from source is hardly magic. If you have a good mirror, there's a slackware_source/ subdir with the sources, the patches that P.V. applied, and the build script he used to make the .tgz. If you don't like the defaults, just put your own patches in there.
>>Install the gnucash slackware package from http://www.linuxpackages.net<<
That's where I got it, it doesn't work. I've been fighting with this for some time. I'm not the only one.
Hrmmm. I installed but have yet to actually start it up. Might be the fact that you also need the gwrap package. I'm in the middle of installing gnome 2.6, so testing is kinda outa the question =)
>>Add "ZAxisMapping" "4 5" to the mouse input section of your XF86Config. That information is readily available on the Net<<
Okay. It seems there is always some configuration to do after the initial install with anything. No bash, I'm just relating my experience.
Ya, I find that I have to do this one after every slackware install. Maybe I'm missing something in the X config (done it dozens of times)
>>
chmod +x /etc/rc.d/rc.cups
/etc/rc.d/rc.cups start
<<
Thanks, will try it.
Hope it works. If not, lemme know.
>>Never heard of lilo not installing during a Slackware install<<
No offense, but you must not have read too many slackware install forums. This is a very common problem, and has been for some time. BTW: I have installed several linux distros on my system, only slackware gives me this problem. Although, it's easy enough to fix.
No offence taken. Actually, I have never read any slackware install forums. I have never had any issues installing slackware, and I have probably 30 or so 9.x installs under my belt (not to mention the hundreds of previous versions I have installed for servers, firewalls, etc.). I have not really been one to get into the Slackware Community until lately.
I would love to see slackware move to grub for a bootloader.
>>Don't blame gnome for that. That's a problem with your X setup, or the driver itself.<<
Maybe, I think there are ways to speed up dropline-gnome, but I don't know how.
Not sure how either. Possible that it's the glx or dri modules not being loaded from within your XF86Config. With my gnome install, it was the fact that I just installed a new GeForce 4 and was using the generic nv driver for X, rather than the one from nvidia. World of difference afterwards.
Another $0.02 CDN
>Evolution even cloned how slowly Outlook opens.
lol
very funny true
Oddly enough, I was just flipping through this month's LJ issue before reading your review, and this exact problem was mentioned in *da dum* an article about SuperKaramba! :=)
(pp 28-31)
Anyway, you need to find the following line in the karamba.cpp (in the src directory after you extract the source):
KWin::setType(winId(), NET::Dock);
And comment it out, like so:
// KWin::setType(winId(), NET::Dock);
Assuming this fixes your problem, forward any thanks to Marcel Gagne.
--Nick F.
What? There is nothing automatic about the process. It takes days to lock down a box, and weeks of continually testing each package in search of the optimal ACL or MAC permissions/roles. Do you have any idea how gruelsome the process can be? There is nothing automatic about it. I don't think you understand what hardened OS is all about.
Been there, done that. On Slack 
. It is not really that bad, often there are already profiles for e.g. ACLs for daemons. It just takes some trail and error to finetune them. Once you have done it it isn't really difficult after that. I did it with both kernel ACL patches and systrace (BSD).
I take it that you changed the protocol from PS/2 to ImPS/2 as that's needed aswell I think.
Compiling GNUCash yourself is doable, you just have to get some Slack 8.1 files. Instructions can be found over here: http://rjmarq.org/gnucash.html
GCC isn't hardened, it (propolice) just compiles programs to use a random canary to check nobody has tampered with the program.
There are at least two more ways to add icons to the desktop of a minimal window manager...
Idesk:
http://idesk.timmfin.net/
And Xtdesk (derived from Idesk):
http://garuda.newmail.ru/xtdesk_e.dhtml
Hope this helps.
CTRL-SHIFT-ENTER functions in Mexcel are matrix/array functions. In OOo they just work without using CTRL-SHIFT-ENTER. Why it is obligatory in excel is beyond me!
ok choosing the packges up front has +1 prompt during install but whendtoing a full install one could always use pkgtool aftewards to just strip everything else that will no be needed and it's pretty easy
"Evolution even cloned how slowly Outlook opens."
Yeah, except the Gnome team is rather small. Outlook has the bulk of Microsoft's legions behind it and still makes a slow, insecure mail client. What's MS' excuse?
that sillyness about one program to rule them all have to go. as long as both konqueror, mozilla or whatever other program you want to use renders pages the same way then whats the problem? same deal with office programs, as long as the spreadsheet or text document looks the same then i dont care what program you use. in a corporate enviroment then they can enforce a one software policy anyways and on a desktop people will most likely stay with what gets the job done for them. force feeding one browser or one office collection is not the free software way. free software is about choice, being able to select what tool you want to use independet of what everyone else use. standards should be about filetypes (xml based solutions is nice) not about what software you use!
force feeding one browser or one office collection is not the free software way. free software is about choice, being able to select what tool you want to use independet of what everyone else use
Agreed. Which is why my idea is not to force feed one of each app - I said to also make it easy to get other types of that application.
Example: in Lindows, you pretty much get one of each app, with links to the other apps. Really, the links go to Click 'n Run so you can install what YOU want if you don't like the default. Certainly, Lindows is NOT what I want in Linux, but this idea struck me as very simple and very easy, and very much in the spirit of being able to select the software you desire to perform a certain task (e.g. browsing) - keeping the CHOICE that I love so much about Linux.
My point was really this: why have so many installed? Why not just ONE and then make it easy to install the others? My preference is for the apps I listed, so since it was my article I offered them as standards!
To the person who replied earlier about not liking OOo and not wanting 150MB installed (actually, it's 74.7MB to download, so you're a little off) - if there was an Express Install option, don't choose to use it! Use the "classic" Slack install instead! Again, it's about choice and choosing what's best for you - but let the user make the choice - installing stuff I don't want isn't really "choice."
your fully able to pick and select exactly what software you want in most installers (granted i have never used slack myself and it have been years without helping others install it so). allso, haveing them all installed will let the user try them all and keep the one he wants while uninstalling the rest. mandrake is nice this way, mark a selection at the bottom of the software group "window" and you get taken to a tree structure where you can select exactly the stuff you want to install with dependency management so that if you deselct one pacage you get told what packages depend on it and either choose to have them all deselected or just cancel your choice. all of them have nice descriptive info about them and are sorted (to me atleast) logicaly.
i couldn't stand to read it after the third page, yuck.
talking about your own ignorance and putting linux down is quite this fellow's lot.
1. Gets hissy when he gets a new computer with a badly supported graphics card and complains when linux/XFree86 doesn't run?????
2. He tries to make himself look like a real smart guy, however most people that i know would simply do a diff on the XF86config file from another distro to discover the ZAxisMapping. it took me all of 5 minutes to do myself!!!!
3. His rant about apt-get being a source pkg utility is absurd. it is what it is, and no more. if you want an apt-get source pkg manger than try gentoo or *bsd, i mean come on, we could spend all day in fairy land talking about how to change things that other people like just fine, gag
4. and the icing on the cake was when he was talking about ease of use for newbies, it's slackware for christ's sake
5. he recompiled the kernel when all he had to do was add a line in /etc/moduls.conf or do a simple modprobe and yet he puts down the distro, sounds like to me he shouldn't be using slackware
all i can say is this guy is a chode, he may use linux however his own incompetence as a linux user makes me sad:-(
Have been using slackware for a few months now. I'm stuck on it and probably wont be hopping distros for a while. I know for a fact that i'm not going to rpm based distros, i just don't like them. Current window manager of choice, enlightenment 0.16.6. It's an old favourite.
On a side note, superkaramba seems like it hasn't been updated or maintained for sometime. I suggest gdesklets. Sure it needs gnome libs, but so far haven't had any problems with those display on the desktop.
Nice article, though a tad too long
Slackware attempts to be BSD-like. As such, if you prefer the Slackware way of doing things over other Linux distributions, you might p