All of us who are in computers know that at present we are using enhanced software products for applications, which our predecessors never thought about or used. Why do we need a word processor when a simple text file does the same job of documentation.
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suse 9 is old news, ill use it when they move to 10, i get tired of distros that dont update often
no command line (only menu-driven) update tool like yum, up2date, apt-get or urpmi. This is probably the only problem with using Suse in our company.
YaST, IMHO, is a bit *too* smart. It works very fine in a default environment, but once you have to handle something a bit out of the ordinary, the YaST options don't really help you. And then you'll realize that any manual edits you make to configuration files are in danger of getting overwritten unless you know *exactly* what you're doing.
Correct aim (user-friendly interface for configurating), wrong approach (providing a subset of what's possible by placing yet another application on top).
What I believe is missing from Linux is some more common grounds, and a bit less diversity. The child's days are over, and now Linux must show that it can settle on a set of standards.
^^ sorry 
You can call Yast from the cli you know... just su rot and run yast...
try it and you'll see
I find Samba a pain to configure and looked forward to the configuaration tool in SuSE 9.0's YaST. Unfortunately it does little more than choose from a set of typical Samba uses, which were easy to configure anyway as they were examples that came with Samba. I look forward to this being improved.
YaST is a great tool for configuring Linux things for the lazy (myself included). I wonder if SuSE/Novell could look into VPN type things as they are a pain to configure.. :-)
It is possible to use YaST from a command prompt, but for not interactive use could you start it and then use DCOP? See http://www.osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=6236
Ian
update for Suse is menu-driven (from X or cli) and you can't use a command like "yum install mysql" or "yum upgrade", but you have to go in Yast and try to solve nearly by hand the rpm dependences.
Is it just me, or did the author of this article count FreeBSD as a "flavor" of Linux?
Some "OS Developer" if he thinks that FreeBSD is a "flavor" of Linux. If its a typo or an oversight, my apologies.
I discovered SUSE 9 a few weeks ago, and was happy that it just works. The default install is as good as windows install --- works but needs some work to personalise it. Great.
Problem was that when I did a major update of the system (online), and now my mouse doesn't move. It's detected (and works under Windows), there is an icon, but doesn't move. That will need some tweaking I guess.
And SUSE10 is coming in April according to a press release I read a couple of days ago. The Enterprise version is coming in the summer.
I have tried SUSE in the past, and for some reason, it just doesn't fit me right, and things just don't like to work right for me. Right now I am running Mepis, and loving it. I don't think I will ever use anything that is not Debian based again.
It just seems to provide more headaches then relief in my experience. I like a distro that stays out of my way, overwritting changes I make is not something I look for. I don't appreciate arguing with my computer to something simple.
Yast also seems very slow, and adding packages is annoying. The whole process of "Updating Cache" just infuriates me. I can understand it if I make a lot of changes, but for a lib that itself is less then a meg? Give me a break, its just annoying.
YOU isn't fast enough either, although you can just install APT or YUM from my understanding. Still, updating software is something I expect from a distro. To me, its a measure of the distro's relative merit. I was once told "just go to the SUSE site and get it there". Call me lazy, but I guess I have just gotten too used to APT...
SUSE was my first experiance in the Linux world outside of Red Hat, at that time, it was fine. I didn't realize the annoyances weren't necissary I guess. I have installed each version since, and they just seem to get more annoying.
I don't know, I think I am just addicted to Debian, nothing else competes for different reasons. For all its negatives, its net value just out ways any other distro I have tried.
(I have tried Red Hat 7.3,8.0, SUSE 8.0,8.2,9.0, Mandrake 8.0,9.0, Xandros 1.0, Gentoo 1.3, FreeBSD 4.7,5.0,5.1,5.2, so maybe my experience is not what it could be, but Debian Sid just fits better so far...)
The Company I work for is moving to linux.....woooohoooo. Except that my boss has decided to go with SLES and SLOX. I think SLOX is really nice. SLES on the other hand, IMHO, bites. The Yast tool is pretty good. I enable Xforwarding and then I can do what I need to with out getting off my lazy butt..however it dosent really offer anything that cant be done from the command line....save for package management.
call me stupid but I can apt-get samba3 for example in RH or slapt-get in Slack....not in Suse. Forget about recent packages in SLES as well. its a real P.I.T.A.
I 100% agree with Frank. I too like a distro that stays out of my way. I would also like to add that packaging and updates in SLES sucks. I will be requesting a move to Fedora. I would prefer Slack but thats not gonna happen.
-----------------------------------------
Give command line or give me death!
NixerX
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> I don't know, I think I am just addicted to Debian,
> nothing else competes for different reasons. For all
> its negatives, its net value just out ways any other
> distro I have tried.
I am usually not the one to advertise any one Linux distribution, and perhaps the things that made me chose my distro are exactly those that made you chose Debian... but Debian always felt a bit too "old" to me, too far from the edge - being the core hacker I am, always requiring the latest version of my tools. And my experiences with packages, no matter whether RPM, DEB or whatever, were almost always negative.
If that rings a bell with you, you *might* want to try Gentoo. Sure it takes a while to compile all that stuff from sources, but at least I can update a core package like glibc or gcc, and recompile all the stuff in one go, without having to wait for my favourite RPM to appear in a version compatible to my environment.
Having an Open Source system and then waiting for binary RPMs / DEBs just feels wrong. ;-)
You wanted to use Fedora, a bleeding edge unsupported distro, in your company. Frankly I can understand why your boss didn't agree.
Also there's no configuration tool in Linux that can do things you can't do on the commandline, they all boil down to abstracted editors for textual configuration files.
Same with recent packages - SLES, like Redhat, is for businesses, not hackers, so they only have mature well patched software. It's the same as Debian, except not so extreme.
Software updates are always available via YaST Online Update (YOU) which keeps your system up to date in terms of bug and security patches easily.
I'm using SuSE Pro myself. Frankly it's a little stodgy - it lacks Redhat/Fedora's graphical finesse, and YaST doesn't cover everything (I'd like better LDAP support myself). Further the documentation is quite poor in quality. It gives brief introductions to everything instead of describing the crucials in depth, and the German-English translation is quite poor and evidentally done by someone who doesn't always understand what they're translating. Redhat's docs, while not as comprehensive, are better.
However, that said, SLES is a solid distro. It's more expensive that RHEL, but to the best of my knowledge, it's still ahead of the game in terms of graphical configuration. Fedora simply isn't in the same league. It's a matter of picking the right distro for the job.
I'm wondering of some of the users here are ever reading in the suse database or in the manuals.
Never heard of the command online_update ?
it's there since SuSE 8.1
http://sdb.suse.de/sdb/en/html/81_you3.html
regards,
Frederik Vos
http://www.l4.be
You can graphically configure just about everything with swat -- why would you want to double that functionality in YAST..?!!
I decided to give SuSE 9 a try by downloading the boot.iso and doing an FTP install. (If I liked it, I was going to buy the retail box.) I had issues getting the install to work. I have a couple of computers in my house behind a Netgear router/firewall. (Pretty typical setup these days.) The FTP installer wouldn't work so I swapped by Ethernet cables around so that this machine was directly connected to the Internet. The FTP installer worked at that point but unfortunately the mirror I selected was extremely slow. And I couldn't stop/pause the installation and pick a different mirror. So at that point I decided to just put my Ethernet cables back the way they were, boot back into my regular O/S (Fedora [at the time]), and download the entire SuSE FTP directory to my hard-drive and then perform an installation from hard-disk. That worked. (And I'd actually recommend this method for everyone because if you want to do a subsequent re-install, it will go much faster since you have all the information already downloaded.)
Anyway - it was a lot of work for nothing because I very underwhelmed with SuSE, personally. Everyone who talks about SuSE always says how great YaST is. Have they ever used any other GUI config tools? Or is YaST just their first experience with a GUI config tool and that is why they think it's so great? I think it's ugly and clunky compared to RedHat/Fedora's config tools (though I will grant you that YaST puts them all under 1 umbrella whereas RedHat/Fedora have their config tools spread out throughout the system) and compared to Mandrake's GUI config tool, YaST is just terrible. (Again - just my opinion of course.) And the default look and feel of SuSE leaves a lot to be desired. I had some GUI issues with Gnome 2.2 (why not Gnome 2.4?) when I installed it so I didn't spend much time with SuSE so maybe I'm being too judgmental. But you know how it is ... first impressions and all.
Hi Bryan,
Yea, I agree Fedora's bleedng edge is not a sane production system....tho FC1 has been around for quite a while since FC2-test is out. I was stating that if ppl need that RPM type distro with cushy GUI wizards FC is not a bad place to start.
If I had my way It would be slackware. I've been a slacker since 3.6 and find it brilliant. Simple Secure Stable and F.A.F. Id put a Slack box up against an equal SLES box for speed and reliability anyday.
Thanks for your input Bryan.
-N
@ blixel:
I think much of the "SuSE is so good..." comes from the fact that it is *the* distribution on the shelves, here in Germany. You get SuSE everywhere, with the competition (almost) nowhere to be seen. All magazine articles are about SuSE, and if there's a cover CD with a Linux distribution on it, it's SuSE (or Knoppix).
Debian always felt a bit too "old" to me, too far from the edge
Please refere to what I stated I have used, it says "Debian Sid", I have never used the stable branch for more then an hour after install.
Fedora's "stable" releases are fairly up to date, while "testing" truly is testing packages, mostly developement releases. This is a good thing, Debian Sid provides sofware which is stable upstream, but Woody provides concentration on Security and Stability.
Woody == RHEL
Sarge == Fedora
Sid == Fedora-test
Experimental == SID
...at least in terms of stability from my experience. In each case, the Debian product is actually more stable on X86 though. They are about as up-to-date also.
Neither require you compile all day long. Sid, and Fedora-test are about as up-to-date as Gentoo, and best of all, you don't have to compile everything.
I have never met a developer that prefered an entire source based distro over just setting up a chroot, but ok...
you *might* want to try Gentoo
If you will note in the same section, you will see I have tried Gentoo. It was no faster then Debian, and certainly required a lot more of my time.
Why would anyone want to compile everything, including things not required for the project they develope for? Compiling an entire system just seems like wasted effort. I don't care to sit around for 6 hours to compile XFree86 when all I maintain is GAIM, it's not logical.
I'm wondering of some of the users here are ever reading in the suse database or in the manuals.
Never heard of the command online_update ?
it's there since SuSE 8.1
Yes, but I have never experienced an actual update using it. I have seen it tell me what must be upgraded, but the servers never appear to hold the upgrades it says exist... Maybe I missed something... Not I only do the netinstall, I don't pay as I don't need the support. Other distro's offer more and contribute more to the community, SUSE simply doesn't warrent payment.
On a more personal note, SUSE doesn't seem motivated to follow the Open Source communities ideals. They have often included closed source technologies, while still making money off of the OSS they ship. These are rarely even value added, they are just stuff no one has heard of that happens to run on SUSE... Hopefully Ximian will have a positive effect on Novell, and try to make SUSE more OSS aware...
Swat is fine but it doesn't do the same job as YaST. Swat is design to configure Samba on a generic machine. YaST is designed to configure SuSE Linux for someone using SuSE Linux. For example, user lists could be unified in YaST so that the UNIX and Windows/Samba user account set up could ask all the relavent questions in one place. Swat couldn't do this without going beyond its remit. It's the repetition of work and having to understand the innards of Samba that I always find a nuisance to have to relearn to configure Samaba. YaST could be winning here for me, but it isn't in SuSE 9.
Ian
> Why would anyone want to compile everything, including
> things not required for the project they develope for?
OK, call me an update addict. When a new version comes out, I want to have it. On Windows, that's rather easy as most applications are very much self-contained. On Linux, especially using binary packages, that usually means your dependencies are f***ed up. Well, so I leave the comp running over night chewing on that "emerge", and when I come back next day, I've got my latest compiler / clib / kernel version.
> Compiling an entire system just seems like wasted effort.
> I don't care to sit around for 6 hours to compile XFree86
> when all I maintain is GAIM, it's not logical.
It's not like I'm sitting in front of the screen staring at compiler output. ;-)
To each his own, but after a little more experience with Gentoo, you will realize that compiling everything isnt worth it. Why dont you just use an optimized binary distro? (ala ArchLinux or similar) You arent gaining any speed.
NetBSD with GENERIC kernel and binary packages is faster on my machine than Gentoo every was (As was FreeBSD).
Use *BSD. But if you must use linux, use a binary distro. If there is a package that you need to configure with special build time options, build that one from source.
If you are going to use a source distro, at least use a good one like CRUX.
It must be all those colors that gentoo gives you that you love. 
I find that SuSE is great on a newer computer with nothing but defaults running... However, I have yet to use 9.. I used 8.2.. Found it nice but it was a bit slllooowwww! I run slack now... However, to anyone wanting to give linux a spin.. I would probably recommend SuSE above all else..
Why is all the configuration e.g. network settings, samba setup,... not part of standard graphical environments like Gnome and KDE availabe for all Linux distros. That way the learning curve for switching between different Linux distros or perahaps even Linux and other unixlike systems would be much lower.
After installing, I found that it does not recognize my soundcard (Hercules Fortissimo) and began blaring loud static from my speakers once SuSE was loaded. I tried to update the sound card drivers to no avail so I promptly dumped it.
I found the yast2 interface to be very fluid. Have used many different distros of linux for years and prefer Suse. My company currently uses a few production suse boxen and the windoze admins can actually make changes without having to page the systems group 15 times an hour;)
We will settle on a set of standards, homogenize the entire platform and create a breeding ground for worm/viral outbreaks of window proportions. Auto updating is a liability, not a feature.
What exactly was offending about the:
"What no screenshots?
NEVER, EVER do that again in an article!"
comment?
Mod monkeys. Puff!
HOW well does Yast2 do these things? Apt, rpm -Uvh? What? Is is too much to ask that the review install something and actually use the distro?
"Why would anyone want to compile everything, including things not required for the project they develope for?"
>>>>>>>>>>
One reason which comes to my mind is to compile everything with stack-smash protection.
hey, it comes in end of April
well, YaST is fine, as SuSE is, as Linux is
I just installed SuSE64 9.0 Pro on an AMD64. I have to say it was probably the easiest install of any operating system I have done and I have done a few: OpenServer 5.0, Corel Linux, RH7.3, Win95, 98, 98SE, 2000. The update of recent patches via Yast2 is very slick and painless. System configuration is quite easy and straight forward as well. I'd say SuSE 9.0 Pro and Yast2 are big steps in the direction of making Linux more user friendly and "desktopable". I wouldn't hesitate to recommend this product to newbies.
apt-get and synaptic for RPM for SuSE.
http://linux01.gwdg.de/apt4rpm/
The big problem I have with Linux is dependencies. I hate when a program tells me something couldn't be installed because it depends on an earlier version of a library I already have installed. Obviously if a installer program can tell me which dependencies need to be resolved, it should be able to resolve them too. If I went into the emergencey room at the hospital with a finger cut off I'd expect them to sew it back on, not just say "Oh look your finger's broken" or "I couldn't sew your finger back on because doing so depends on surgical tools which I do not have."
More, bigger, better, faster. That's why we have "enhanced" applications. I don't even see why anyone would raise this point. Why wouldn't you want something to be made better if it can be?
I've tried RedHat WS, Fedora, Mandrake but found SuSE Pro 9.0 to offer more than any of this distros. Windows users argue that Linux is not ready for the desktop and only suited to server applications. This is true for many distros but SuSE has released several distro versions (server, personal desktop, pro, 64-bit, etc) to meet the needs of consumers.
Sure you can still do things the old way of using Bash and a Terminal in SuSE for your daily tasks but why have to? YAST already has simplified many of your tasks and even automated some (ie: online update). It even will auto-check dependencies and assist getting missing files if needed.
Documentation is another added bonus with SuSE. If you get the free FTP install of SuSE Personal 9.0 you still get detailed "User" docs to assist you with learning SuSE and Linux in general. The retail version comes with installation support, added software and printed manual. SuSE Pro 9.0 comes with 5 CD's, DVD, printed manuals (both User and Admin) and tech support. Even with out the printed manuals the ones included with the SuSE installation include images of UI's, tools, etc to help you understand better.
One complaint I have heard from RedHat users in the film and game industry is that SuSE lacks adequate "lib" files so as to use apps used by film studios (ie: Maya, XSI, Houdini, Fusion, Smoke, etc). This is just plain ignorance. With SuSE 9.0 I have not had any trouble installing film software or require any changes to "lib" files. Actually I found it easier to install and check for dependencies in SuSE than in RedHat. Something SuSE has improved on since 8.2.
Coming from many years using Windows I have to admit this is one cool distro. It is a hell of a lot easier to use than other Linux distro. Compare other distros and see how SuSE beats the competition by offering more tools, lower prices, included software and ease of use. I'm excited to see what SuSE has to offer us with their next release.
"YAST already has simplified many of your tasks and even automated some (ie: online update). It even will auto-check dependencies and assist getting missing files if needed."
How so?! I would be most interested in getting to know that. I have never seen how YAST would assist you in getting missing files/rpms. Say, I want to Upgrade K3B so it will burn VCDs, this is the maximum possible nightmare. You have to search for the missing files all over the net and it keeps giving you dependency-touble... please enlighten me what you are talking about.
RE: "How so?! I would be most interested in getting to know that. I have never seen how YAST would assist you in getting missing files/rpms. Say, I want to Upgrade K3B so it will burn VCDs, this is the maximum possible nightmare. You have to search for the missing files all over the net and it keeps giving you dependency-touble... please enlighten me what you are talking about."
YAST can quickly help determine with it's dependency checker what files are missing or what is conflicting. So either you have the missing files contained on one of the CD's that came with SuSE or you can do a search on the net. I've found that if it's not on one of my 5 CD's that came with SuSE Pro 9.0 than likely I wound find it on the net. You have to understand also that YAST Install and Remove Programs will search in the system files and Source Installation directory you set up. In the next update of SuSE YAST it should have a search tool with the ability to easily search the net with out the need to manually add ftp links.
Also many times missing files are due to an out dated application. Simply going into YAST and finding the application then selecting it for update may resolve your issue. SuSE Watcher for YOU is also very helpful for providing information on new update changes. Most users just set SuSE YOU to update with system patches and forget about updating programs installed. YAST is capable of so much if you only take time to learn it.
Make sure to avoid following the advice of people telling you to force install files when YAST indicates dependency issues. You just end up having a buggy program or completely distabilizing your system.
These links may help you.
http://portal.suse.com/sdb/en/index.html
http://linux01.gwdg.de/apt4rpm/
www.linuxiso.org/forum/
www.linuxforum.com
Sorry for the spelling mistakes. Long day and this decaf coffee isn't helping 
as someone very new to Linux, at first I found YAST to be very very nice... but then found out what the people that use command line are saying... YAST is very good as far as it goes but it does not do everything... and that is the problem... sooner or later you have to go looking for where a file is... usually it is not where MAN say it is cause YAST has put it somewhere else, or the folder say god don't write in this folder... so I have become flustrated... well very flustrated... guess now I have to move to one of the distro that use command lines .... laughing before I even have learned much of anything... OH well thanxs SuSE you got me started and for that I am thankful... Anyone that wants just a plain box... it is great... I am trying to do more.... and that is my problem...
thanxs for listen to a newbie....
I work for a trianing company and we where looking at RH and Suse to see about offering trianing.
I liked RH's look and speed in admin apps but suse had more speed running regular apps I think.
That too and I find Suse centralises things nicely. I do agree that when you try to override the YaST settings by configuring the conf files directly
oddly enough we went with suse and I'm in Utah right now so well see what the future holds
Per vnet: "...as someone very new to Linux, at first I found YAST to be very very nice... but then found out what the people that use command line are saying..."
Excuse me but you admitted to being new to SUSE Linux and probably GNU/Linux more generally if I read the about quote from your posting correctly. I know few newbies who start in on why the commandline should be used with only limited experience with the GUI configurator options available. Now go play in traffic and stop trying to sound self-important dude.
I downloaded the free FTP version and installed SuSe 9.0 from my local server. Very nice and possibly the fastest way I ever installed Linux - considering that after a few clicks in the install interface, I was free to do other things without the need to monitor the installation or swap disks.
YAST is a very nice management tool although a few glitches here and there can be found. Apache configuration wants you to used Apache 2.x and errors out if you have only 1.28. For various reasons I cannot use 2.x. Webmin did the job I needed but then, isn't YAST supposed to be sufficient? After all I didn't install a hacky Apache but a version that came with the distro.
As far as Samba is concerned, it was easy to set SuSe as a client machine connection to a Windows box, but setting it as a server is not nearly as easy. As of today no distro beats SME Server (http://e-smith.org), except that SME is a server only Linux.
I also find SuSe to be pretty much behind some other distros in terms of new packages availability. I am a newbie, I think, and I'm usually panicky when it comes to compiling instead of using precompiled packages. The selection of new precompiled packages for SuSe is so and so. Ideally I would like to have a distro such as PLD (http://www.pld.org.pl/). These guys have RPM packages ready before any other distro even starts working on them, and the installation is a breeze. Well, you can't have all you want though so PLD is a bitch to set up - way above my head at this point.
Anyway, I am waiting for SuSe 10 amd Mandrake 10 Public so I can decide which one to go buy.
After Red Hat's change of direction and a terrible experience with Fedora Core-1 in the beginning, I was looking for a "manufacturer"-supported distro, so I gave SuSE a shot. After all, at about €75, it's prety cheap, a packet of cigarettes and a Guinness more than a full tank of petrol.
I simply love it! Loaded on an IBM T20, sound works well, devices correctly detected and amazingly, so does 'suspend'. With a simple 'Google' I found how to get DVD's playing (encrypted ones - like 99.9% of them are), and pleasantly watched Ice Age using Ogle (not supplied - I downloaded from the Ogle site). It has enough 'toys' to give the average Linux newbie their first typical problem. "Loaded everything, and now I'm confused.." *
Best thing for me was, due to a combination of extreme cold and carelessness (I live in Finland, and starting a -25 degree Centigrade laptop aint good for hard drives!), I corrupted GRUB. Now, I've gone through the total geek-ery of a rescue disk/fsck'ing as required, but SuSE offers a GUI'd rescue in the graphical startup menu. I tried it, and
it reinstalled grub flawlessly.
My ONLY gripe - I wish it weren't quite so...well...German. Does have an insistence in putting files in non-standard places, like Apache root in /srv/ - daring to be different, I guess. If you're used to Dead Rat/Fedora/Mandrake, etc., it can be a little confusing to start.
Apart from that, gets my vote bigtime. Doesn't get much better on the desktop than this.
Sure, I run RH9 in C/L for a web/mail/file/print/LDAP server, so command-line isn't new to me. But this is easy, and just "does what it says on the tin".
(Good article, by the way. Couple of screenshots would've "guilded the lily")
-Andy
* Strong tip if you're installing for a newbie. Only install what they need. Absolutely no more. One browser, one WP, one FTP tool, one e-mail client, one CD player etc..It kinda muddles them, you see.
For people who like to use apt, or for those that are simply looking for an alternative installation method see: http://linux01.gwdg.de/apt4rpm/
Apt4rpm hands the user tools to upgrade rpm packages by using apt. Now apt is so much more powerfull than any package manager i know, and yes, it also uses the CLI. I understand that Yast2 update (You) and apt can work together. However, after upgrading my freshly installed 8.1 to 8.2 to 9.0 (this IS possible with apt4rpm, not easy, but fun to do) You still believed the system to be an 8.1 SuSE installation. Of course this will defeat any use of You in the future (until i find where Yast2 keeps those settings, anybody?). Luckely, this is not a problem for me at all because apt-get _completely_ replaces the online update and even the software installation tool that comes with Yast2. Now my system is bleedin' edge and stable as a house (and that's a first for me!).
I too am relatively new to Linux (about 3 years now). I have tried a couple different Redhat distros, a couple Mandrake, Debian (via the excellent Knoppix live CD) and now finally Suse 9 pro.
The YaSt installer is very nice if you happen to have fully compatible hardware. I had (and I emphasize the had part) a 19" MAG monitor that YaSt (SaX2 actually) didn't pick up on. To be fair, none of the other distros did either, but it always worked OK for me. At any rate, I managed to get some bad XFree settings loaded and commenced to ruining the monitor. I'd always read that it was possible to do that, but until then had never seen if first hand.
The replacement monitor was picked up on immediately and works well.