OSNews

Great Job...you know you should be a technical writer.....Oh wait :-)

" Along the way I have tried to describe my experiences with each distro, the good and the bad. I have been cussed & criticized by some people for daring to mention flaws in their pet distro. I have been accused of favoritism for mentioning that a particular distro excelled in some particular area."

Now here your just trying to put on the face of a daring pioneer. A lot like the face Bruce Perens tried to put (http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/view/270). The reality of the matter is that you were clearly being biased in many areas of your reviews inw hich your arbitary rating system was judging the same problem differently in different distributions or some were marked down twice for the same thing. You might be right about a select few, but most people clearly pointed to your errors and the lack of depth in some of your reviews. I am not saying you did something wrong, it is after all your personal experience made for you, but that does not mean you were fair. Get over your attitute of "I am right but people just say I'm not because their biased, not because I might be or I might be doing something wrong."

I think if you read farther, you will find he addresses this. he did say that he received constructive criticism, but many of the negative communications were just Zealotry filled dribble, sort of like attitude you are vaguely mirroring right now.

You should check out CNR Express. It's been out for a long time and allows for quick install of big programs (StarOffice, OpenOffice, Doom, Quake, etc.) in under 3 minutes for modem users.

http://lindows.com/cnrexpress

CNR Express also allows users to create their own local "repositories" for packages (via CD's they burn, a local area network, etc), making additional installs very quick, even for modem users.

Please keep in mind that LindowsOS is designed for the AVERAGE computer user. 95% of computer users have never installed an OS in their life, let alone know how to solve dependency problems. We're trying to achieve ease-of-use and stability with CNR.

For OS News, these reviews may be applicable, but for the 95% of the rest of the world, their criteria will be very different. Put the average computer user in front of any Linux distribution, have them go to http://lindows.com/filetypes, and watch what happens.

Thanks,

Kevin Carmony
President, Lindows.com, Inc.

I fully agree about the worst enemy of the linux community..is the linux community. Isn't it suprising that after working with distro after distro that the top two distros are not free? Imagine that! Pay me! I want to eat, pay my morgage, truck, etc!

I have also checked out Lindows, Xandros, and many other distros. For my commercial customers, it is most likely that I would recommend Xandros. This is largely due to Codeweavers out of the box. Office is the standard. In my opinion, Star/Open office sucks. The ability for my customers to use something so smooth as Xandros AND use the industry standard, MSOffice, is very wonderful.

I throughly enjoyed your review once I finished it, but frankly at just under half way through I was dead sick of it. Your review got terribly redundant when it came to customer support. It's not that I don't agree with you, however irrelevant that is, but that you got so wound up in how you felt about it all that you kept making the same point over and over and over and over again. IMO it would have been much more appropriate to write a completely seperate article focusing on customer support in Linux Distros today than to include it in the scope for this article. I wasn't expecting a full on lecture that dregs on for a couple pages - I wanted to know how XandrOS stood up compared to the other distros you tried and how you felt about it. When you got around to that, it was great imo - but I just can't help remembering myself thinking with a sick feeling in my stomach 'Alright already, he made his point, when's he going to get on with it?'

I don't mean to be too harsh, I just hope this bit of criticism helps. For whatever it's worth - thanks for the time you've invested in your shootout, I've read each one and enjoyed each of them very much. Kudos to you, and I look forward to read more of your writing in the future.

I've enjoyed following this series. The writer is entertaining and exhibits a lot of plain old common sense in what he has to say. I think he reached his final decisions thoughtfully and logically (and, I have to say, I agree with him - Libranet wins hands-down for me too, for very similar reasons as expressed by the author.)

Thanks a bunch for this "shootout"!

"(As a side note, am I the only one who is getting nervous about the way Sarge and Sid are getting so tangled up in the latest distros? I have reached the point that I am almost afraid to try upgrading a Debian-based distro for fear of crunching half a dozen major dependencies and destroying my whole installation. For a while I seriously considered going back to Woody and staying there until the storm passed. All I want is to keep my kernel, video and applications up to date. Is that too much to ask?)"

Believe me, son, you're not alone! I've got sarge and it's been merrily crashing (in some cases full system crashes) for the past fortnight.

It would have been nice, however, to have included distros that aren't x86-only.

Barry,

Thank you for the review and for the opportunity to respond. We are working hard to improve email and forum support response times at Lindows.com. I will discuss the concerns that you mentioned here with the VP of Customer Service. We are committed to offering World-Class Customer Support at Lindows.com.

I invite you to view our pledge here:
http://info.lindows.com/pledge/Customer_Care_Pledge.html

We appreciate your feedback. I look forward to reading about your future experiences with LindowsOS.

Kendall Dawson
Community Liaison, Lindows.com Inc.

"I haven't found one single distro that worked properly out of the box on both of my systems." I have had a simmilar experience on my computers, not a good statistic IMHO.
BTW $100 for the distro is way too expensive. Linux distros have more frequent release cycles than windows, sometimes releaseing every 6 months vs MSFT's 2 year upgrade cycle. Even Libranet is $80. Linux is one area that could use company mergers becasue all that money seems to be going to seperate recreations of the wheel. I would also like to say that on the +/- scale I am throwing this review a -2 for bashing windows. I don't know what is so different about some of your systems but I have never had stability problems with windows. The few stability problems I have had are usually caused by buggy third party software.

Why is it acceptable to bash winodws but wrong to point out any flaws in Linux? There are many flaws in Linux and if I compiled them into an article and asked that it be published it would be deemed flamebait and never get posted. Linux is about free (speech) but Linux zealots are usually the first to try and prevent someone from speaking freely.

Happy Happy, Joy Joy is the way I remember it.

Also great article, I give you a +1+1-1-1+1 for no particular reason

any screenshots from these distros? boring to read an article without screenshots!:)

The article I have to say was at least informative. It was a good desktop only shootout. It didnt review the likes of SUSE or Mandrake but the ms user freindly ones. I found the information about Xandros's EULA interesting and at least might affect my attitude about using it later on, though most ms to lin SOHO users probably would care less since they just click accept. I agree that documentation is always important and its a shame that most places dont plain offer it with their software no more, lol the documentation that came with DOS it seems is thicker than the ones carried on most modern oses now a days. Not that its a problem in the long run since people will simply learn to live without documentation though I hear SUSE has some nice documentation as one of the few that contains them.

I remember when it came out, I thought it was the greatest thing since I learned of OSS. Then Corel (being the whores of the software industry that they were) dumped it for a small amount of money, and I stuck with Red Hat until I found BSD. If Corel had stuck to their Linux plans, theirs could have been great I think.

But the fact that each time, there have been people from Lindows responding here directly. Hell, twice in this first 15 responses it has been them addressing or saying they are addressing issues. Courteous and responsive and fast.

Whatever you may think about their OS, *THAT* is the way to do it.

Well done, Lindows.

Libranet 2.8 includes... the back of the CD sleeve is printed with some basic instructions and that's it.

It's similar to Mepis' two pages, though this would be only around 1 page.

>>Why is it acceptable to bash winodws but wrong to point out any flaws in Linux?<<

Why do you call pointing out flaws in MS Windows or MS businuess politics "bashing Windows"?

>>"I haven't found one single distro that worked properly out of the box on both of my systems." I have had a simmilar experience on my computers, not a good statistic IMHO.<<

I haven't found an operating system that worked properly out of the box on my system yet. Not a good statistic, if you ask me. But i guess that's the price you pay if you use cheap commodity hardware. I found GNU/Linux (Debian in my case) to be more responsive to my attempts to fix the little "inconveniences" than other solutions. Those insisted to revert to their original state. Bothersome.

>>BTW $100 for the distro is way too expensive. Linux distros have more frequent release cycles than windows, sometimes releaseing every 6 months vs MSFT's 2 year upgrade cycle.<<

I agree, $100 is too expensive for most software, if it excludes service and support.
Then i would like to point out that most of the "box-only" GNU/Linux Distros (Xandros, SUSE, etc.) have a yearly release schedule.

I don't care too much about the author's digression. It is rather distracting and so very personal that I have to disagree with a lot of things, especially the part about the distros competing between themselves as much as with Windows: the linux market will only grow significantly if a large number of windows users get interested in Linux. If won't make much difference to Xandros that all Lindows users defect to them but it will be some effort. But any small number of Windows users adopting Linux will make a BIG difference. Granted distros still compete against each other to get the biggest slice of these new customers. But normally, industry lobbies (ever heard about the Agro business ?) fight united to make their common market bigger and make internal competition less cut throat. Linux companies (and the author) don't seem to get it.

I regret that the application offering is not covered because if Linux has got a killer feature, it is the breadth of apps available at no extra cost and how well they work on the distro,i.e. whether the mime associations are correct, whether the apps chosen accept drag and drop from each other and so on and so forth.

Otherwise informative thanks for the time spent. I need to read the libranet review. It's the debian distro that tempts me most.

I agreed with almost everything in it. However, I think that Xandros would be easier for a beginner. For an intermediate and up, Libranet is the best distro. It's convenient and doesn't bastardize everything like Mandrake, SuSE and Red Hat.

I'm not tearing the article apart, I really liked it. I'm merely trying to point out a few things that the author may not have considered.

In the case of hardware detection, I think that the author might be a bit unrealistic. That is one strange video setup he has.

Some of the distros picked up the onboard, others the PCI video card. The "normal" replacement video card would be an AGP card, although this motherboard may not include an AGP port. An AGP card will disable the onboard video and make many of the problems go away.

I would not be suprised if there were BIOS settings that could help the situation. Setting the BIOS to use PCI before AGP video might help. Also, since Xandros detected both as available, he should check for a BIOS setting or jumper to disable the onboard video.

IMHO, Xandros seemed to do the logical thing and should be commended if both video cards were actually usable. Autodetecting and enabling Xinerama is a neat trick that I would like to learn. Most other distros have trouble with a single monitor.

As for 3D, part of the problem is a fundamental one with OSS in general. The software is so fragmented that few applications work well together, much less getting DRI modules for the kernel to work with XFree.

XFree seems to close every attempt at true integration, while Linux changes the kernel around seemingly to avoid the possibility of ever having a driver that is not compiled directly for this configuration along with the rest of the kernel.

Including 3D in a SOHO distro is of questionable use other than for games. On top of that, you don't want a customer to use it, then upgrade the kernel for a security (or other) problem and be left with a non-functional desktop just because the modules no longer match. Upgrading XFree could also break the same things. 2D is a much safer, therefore cheaper, solution for a commercial disto.

I do see that this is a failure, however, I have to give them all some slack on this one due to the fact that no one, AFAIK, can pull this off 100% at this point in time. It will be a major step for Linux when someone makes this a non-issue.

In either of these cases, I doubt that any version of Windows would have produced better results and usually worse. Not a bad showing for Linux, but still room for improvement.

As a coordinator for a SOHO distribution, I know that it isn't as easy as it looks. I will definately keep his points in mind.

I can't see the Spam for Lindows here being more, at every
Review when the Name Lindows felt. Xandros IS for me the much
better Alternative as Lindows, and has superb Userforum Support.

Have we all forgotten that one of the reasons MS Windows is widespread (90% worldwide use on desktops) is it'a ease of use. Thats right, all you have to do is click and go with everything. From PC installation to maintenance, software installation and running programs. THATS WHAT THE PUBLIC WANTS.
The closest installation to match this feat is Xandros. At least there is a linux vendor who really does understand the ethos of the general public. If all Linux distros would think like a customer, I bet that their OS would be close to MS standards on ease of use.

How many pages has this guy written for the Xandros review??? Around 8, right? Look at his earlier reviews on Lindows, Mepis or Libranet, I recall some of them were like only 2 pages long. Is this a decent/fair comparison between them??

Don't get me wrong, I dont have anything against Xandros. In fact, I'm writing right now from within my Xandros 2 Desktop. But how can he say that this is a fair comparison when he dedicates so much time to one distro, and far more less to the details of the others.

:::PROUD TO BE LIVING IN THE BIRTHLAND OF LINUX:::

Ratings for this review:

+ long text
+ descriptive

- screenshots
- screenshots
- screenshots

Good article. Regarding the customer support, shouldn't you be comparing the response time of the customer support of those distros under the same condition? I mean, you sent your support request to the other distros not during the holidays (I guess), therefore they replied sooner (with exception of MEPIS, I guess, I think you will get prompt reply even in the holidays... the beauty of "labor-of-love" operations).

Just my 0.02 euros.

Fantastic job, and i'd have to agree with you on you'r final decisions. If i ever have to tell someone to get linux or try it, libranet is the go.

I myself use debian and i dont think i'll ever switch. I thought linux was crap after i tried redhat although now i know a little more than i did back than, Debian is a great system.

Now that you've chosen you'r favourite OS, maybe you should do a series on hardware choice? Run librarnet on different hardware platforms to find the most superious? AMD->Intel etc... or maybe you dont have that much money

I dont think you'r scoring was bad at all, maybe a little weird, but its your opinion on your hardware and your giving it as a users perspective and its a good one.

Thanx for the series, i've enjoyed it heaps!

This is Slashdot material at its finest:
Well, I left Microsoft because it crashed early and often, because it picked up virii more readily than a classroom full of 6 year olds, because it bogged down my system to an incredible degree. But mostly I left Microsoft because I got tired of paying Danegeld. Extortion. Protection Money. I got tired of being locked into obligatory upgrades and proprietary file formats and activation codes that force a user to beg a faceless stranger for permission to use his own hardware. I got tired of asking permission from Microsoft to do whatever I want to do with the computer I paid for. I got tired of Microsoft's casual assumption that owning the license to the operating system gave them a license to tell me what I could, or could not, do with my hardware. I got tired of the uncertainty that comes from not knowing what hoop Microsoft was going to force me to jump through next. I got tired of doing things the Microsoft way simply because no other way existed. Now another way does exist. Where do I go from here?

If that was a comment here it would be modded down, so how did it make it as a posted story?

"If that was a comment here it would be modded down, so how did it make it as a posted story?"

Maybe becasue all he said was true?

- Vecc

I don't believe XAdminMenu is released under the GPL so Barry's comment about Libranet being completely free code is wrong. XAdminmenu does rock , however.

Thanks for your lengthy and detailed review of Xandros v 2.0

I am sure that your thoughts about support will be taken to heart. We are always looking to improve Xandros and our responsiveness to our custoemrs in any way we can.

The delay regarding the shipping date, however, had nothing to do with wanting to get version 2.0 out before Christmas. The original shipping date had to be postponed because the initial run of CD's from our fulfillment house were defective. This caused a delay while they identified their manufacturing problem and rectified it and sent us new Cd's to certify.

Hoping to hear more from you in the future.

Best regards,

Frederick Berenstein, Chairman
Xandros

Lots... of... text... must... force... self... to... read... *snore* ZZZzzz...

Seriously, I found your review between these 4 commercial distros pretty interesting, if only for the feature-comparisons. Would like to echo that throwing a few screenshots in would make it a more interesting read and that this last one was a bit too long compared to the others (That people like Warren don't have a social life isn't a surprise, fooling around with livecds is very addictive and will lead to the same symptoms as stated in the article Besides that, the articles do give a good view on how a regular user must cope with the good and the bad of their OS. Kudos to Libranet for their nice and stable distro, they underline the fact that normal users don't need the latest versionnumbers to Get Stuff Done(tm). Something a lot of us tend to forget. Guilty as charged.

Pity that most of these commercial distros don't release their source under the GPL (in comparison with Mandrake, for example. Warren has seen the light: Thy giveth and Thy taketh), but from a business perspective it's probably healthier for the company, *shrug*. Besides, us non-commercial distrobuilders enjoy reinventing the wheel anyway, keeps us busy. I thank Xandros, MEPIS, Libranet and Lindows for the diversity they create in Distroland and wish them well!

Cheers,

Alex
morphix.org
(Can't let the Lindows guy make all the comments, just had to post

Excellent article. I'll credit minor redundancies as a sign of sincerity. As another OS News poster mentioned, this stuff could be Slashdot.

>> ... I left Microsoft because I got tired of ... Extortion ... of being locked into ... upgrades and proprietary file formats and activation codes ... beg[ging] [MS] for permission to use [my] own hardware. <<

Yes! Thank you!

IMO, it almost doesn't matter which distro one chooses, as the majors are all evolving quickly. There is no accounting for taste. "Mainstream" America proves that over and over. Tech support is very important. Politics can be (depending on your tastes). But no matter how appealing a distro is (CNR, Apt-Get, etc) to you, for whatever reasons, it is nothing without the best possible production applications. In this area Linux is way, way, behind.

Did you even bother to read the article? most of it was the author's comments on linux in general, his opinions on various linux philosophies, and so forth.

the actual xandros meat of it so to speak, would only compose of a couple of pages max if you compiled it all together.




"How many pages has this guy written for the Xandros review??? Around 8, right? Look at his earlier reviews on Lindows, Mepis or Libranet, I recall some of them were like only 2 pages long. Is this a decent/fair comparison between them??

Don't get me wrong, I dont have anything against Xandros. In fact, I'm writing right now from within my Xandros 2 Desktop. But how can he say that this is a fair comparison when he dedicates so much time to one distro, and far more less to the details of the others.

:::PROUD TO BE LIVING IN THE BIRTHLAND OF LINUX:::"

Loved your articles about all the distros you reviewed. The rant against M$ is classic. I do as well say a big thank you for that.

Reading the responses it is cool to see some of the people that are part of the distros are reading and writing. Very cool indeed.

I have used Linux since 1998 and will continue to do so.

but I would have liked to have seen knoppix and knoppix based distros(morphix, gnoppix, etc).

This was a pretty good wrap-up to the series and I think you stated at the beginning why it was so long. You compared all the distros at the same time as reviewing Xandros. I was glad to read about some distros I had never tried before. I've read tons of reviews on Red Hat, Mandrake and Suse. They are after all the top three right?

After becoming a Morphix user and finally getting a useable Debian installed (and now I'm a moderator on Morphix.org too, hi Alex) I finally see what my friends using Debian have been raving about. It's great, updates are easy, sometimes stuff breaks, but it's easily fixable. Someday, all Linux distros will probably be LiveCDs with an option to install, because it works great. They just have to remember which modules you had working for your installed hardware and improve hardware detection after install. That said, I think Debian is the future in one form or another for me and for a lot of people. It's the most open, most stable and the most responsive distro I've tried. If we could just get some of those cool tools the Libranets and the Morphixes of the distro world have created rolled back into Debian. It would be great to have the best tools available to the Debian community at large.

Anyway, great read. I'll be trying out Libranet in the near future myself because of your review. I'm glad you took my suggestion about settling w/ a distro for each PC. In the long run you may just find yourself turning them both into standard Debian boxes via apt-get. Good luck with your new Linux Boxen.

Brian
--------------------------
Somewhere there is a village missing an idiot.

"Now here your just trying to put on the face of a daring pioneer. A lot like the face Bruce Perens tried to put (http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/view/270). The reality of the matter is that you were clearly being biased in many areas of your reviews inw hich your arbitary rating system was judging the same problem differently in different distributions or some were marked down twice for the same thing. "

Actually, I don't recall him ever saying he was trying to be fair or impartial. I enjoyed the series simply because he had a lot of good points about tje Linux Community in general and about the different distros. And there is no such thing as a completely unbised review. Human nature precludes us from being totally objective.

All in all, it was fun reading. I have found many of the same problems trying to find a Linux distro to settle on in my journey away from Windows. For the time being I have settled on a Mac for my main machine and my Windows box is becoming a multiboot system for Linux.

The author is right on about one thing. One of the biggest roadblock to Windows users switching to Linux is the people in the Linux community who seem to be set on driving away anyone who does not want to become a Linux geek. Until Linux becomes completely transparent to the new user, meaning that they can sit down and not realize that the underlaying OS is not Windows, you are not going to see mass defections from Windows. Better the devil you know than the one you don't...

Bill

I had mentioned in a previous article about the author's inability to use the support, or at least write about it. The fact that he has written about it here, and describes what he experienced is refreshing. I don't know if my comment influenced him in such, but it's nice to see.

Yes, I've read the article. That's my opinion about his articles, you would understand if you would have read the previous articles. As I recall, Lindows was devoted something like 4 pages, Mepis only 2, and so on. Even if he wanted to share some thoughts on linux in general in between lines of the Xandros article, I still think he has rated the distros not accurately. What's your problem, man?


:::PROUD TO BE LIVING IN THE BIRTHLAND OF LINUX:::

"I am throwing this review a -2 for bashing windows. I don't know what is so different about some of your systems but I have never had stability problems with windows. The few stability problems I have had are usually caused by buggy third party software. "

And why do you suppose the 3rd party software is buggy to begin with? Could it be because MS uses so many undocumented features in Windows itself? But you did get one thing right. Windows works great as long as you use only MS software on it. But then that is why we have other OS's. Some of us do see the world differently than the MS vision.

I would not call the article Windows bashing either. He simply decided he had had enough of Windows and was detailing his search for a replacement. I have gone through the same process in the last few months. I actually expect to spend more time being productive on my system than fixing problems that crop up. And for me Windows was not meeting that expectation. But then I may be biased. :-)

And why do you suppose the 3rd party software is buggy to begin with? Could it be because MS uses so many undocumented features in Windows itself?

Either back your statement up or retract it, troll.

And why do you suppose the 3rd party software is buggy to begin with? Could it be because MS uses so many undocumented features in Windows itself?

Either back your statement up or retract it, troll.


If I were trolling I would post my comments under the name "Anonymous:... As for backing up my statement I would suggest you try a google search on the phrase "undocumented Windows features" for starters. If you run out of reading material there let me know and I will be more than happy to supply you with more.

PS: Is this "Bob" from the BeOS forums???

I'm not sure if Xandros was rushed out or not, but I agree about the timing of the release date. Xandros 2.0 seems far less compatible with my machine than 1.0 did; with the exact same equipment. I won't detail the problems here, as I hope to work them out with tech support. The only response I've had from them so far in the 12 days since I installed Xandros is a suggestion that I reinstall Xandros, which I had already done to no avail. The tech support team has always been friendly and helpful, as has the User Forums. But other users shouldn't have to supplant tech support because they took most of 2 weeks off for the holidays. They should make an extra effort to support users immediately after a new release; not take time off.

I left the world of print journalism a few years back, decided to start doing it instead of writing about it where network administration was concerned. The pay 'sho 'nuff be a sight bettah.

Anyway, I've not seen a better appraisal piece published anywhere. I learned network administration on Linux and NT4 simultaneously starting in 1995. I see strengths in both OSS and closed-source platforms. Those who have made extensive use of Microsoft's TechNet service know that this is the knowledge base against which all others are judged. If commercial Linux support teams can't be staffed adequately, the next best thing is a printed manual, and the next best thing after that is a deep knowledge base provided by the vendor. Saying that Usenet or the Internet -IS- the knowledge base is not acceptable. As I think you've pointed out so eloquently, widespread adoption of Linux on the desktop might well depend more on acceptable support of the product than on technical perfection in the distribution.

Nice work.

Windows gives me 1 screen style straightup, Linux I have to fluster through 2 (KDE/gnome). Windows installs and just gives me everything and then hides it until needed, Linux makes me pick and choose from 20 different things that do the same task but not quite. Windows just works without "dependency issues" such as newest library of such and such, Linux flakes on the installation of a single new entity. Windows auto recognizes almost everything I can buy and throw at it, Linux requies more hunting and searching and dreaded "dependency updates". I tried Linux once this year and I am in full agreement with the autor, I want the control Linux provides, but I want it in a way that works for lazy people such as myself. One last thought, in my home I want to play games, surf the web, and do new and interesting things with my computer, I do not want to resort to a second computer to research problems everytime something goes wrong. If you want linux to work then standardize it. I want one environment (gnome or KDE I don't care), I want one repository (send me to fileplanet or downloads.com perpetually), and I want everything to generally work out of the box (if not then give me a "big fluffy hardcopy manual"). And this is why I have gone back to Windows yet again, even updated to WinXP. I know what I'm getting and I know reasonably well that it works.

Corel sold their Linux and it became Xandros. So look at Xandros

I agree with you, but it will never happen. What you are describing (as seen in Windows) is actually hard to implement. Linux users will continue to denigrate this as being "dumbed down" or "not learning about the computer," simply because there isn't enough skill in the Linux community to make something as easy to use as Windows. I'm not talking about something as easy as Mac OSX, only as easy to use as Windows. And many geeks can't even see what the problem is. Well, don't be surprised if Linux never makes it above 3-5% on the desktop. It's been explained a million times.

It's a shame i posted a true statement with proven facts, about Lindows "about Lindows", and somebody here (maybe eugenia, i believe) nuked it! so far for freedom of opinion, thanks for that!

..how this business goes - not the best product wins, oh no, but the one with the trickiest marketing, all the bells and whistles, and propaganda! byebye, Lindows. R.I.P.

>proven facts, about Lindows

proven fact 1
>Lindows has too much commecial Maketing Hype - which sucks!
whats is the fact and what did you prove?

proven fact 2
>At the Beginning, Linux sayd it'll run Windows Apps via
>Wine perfectly - now they don't even talk about this issue,
>bc it doesn't!
SO? This is standard behavior of companies not only Lindows
but also Xandros. They told me (version 1) had a nice upgrade/update tool called Xandros Network, it never worked well and certainly never had any nice upgrades or updates they told me about.

provenfact 3
>Xandros integrates CrossOver Office (latest one) flawlessly
>and runs absolutely perfectly, doing the bridge from
>Windoze to Linux - and prove concept what Lindows claimed
>long before, and never did it right!
See point 2

proven fact 4
>Lindows praises so called "Features" at their Homapage,
>for Example PopUp Blocker, which are just plain ordinary
>Mozilla Browser Suite Features.
So? it still does they job not more or less they told..

proven fact 5
>Lindows changed all ordinary KDE About Boxes to their
>own,which is for me a violating of the GPL.
Please read the GPL before you comment, KDE is even using QT tech. that is not free, besides that Lindows contributed more code Xandros ever will do.

etc...etc..

Yor proven facts stink..

I've installed X2 on a desktop and a laptop with no problems with the installs or subsequent operation. Both machines previously had X1. The X1 install failed on the laptop until I updated its BIOS which also fixed some Win2K problems; this suggestion came from another Xandros board user.

Since the release of X2, there have been a number of complaints from would-be users who have install problems and some of these have started long threads, mostly lacking in information that might help either Xandros support or other board users to troubleshoot the problem. I also do software support and moderate a user bulletin board. Fortunately, our clients don't behave like two year olds and are usually smart enough to give useful information with the complaints. Occasionally, some even read the manuals before complaining. I agree that it's unfortunate timing for Xandros to do a relase and allow their support people to have Christmas and New Year holidays - imagine, actually allowing employee holidays. In my company, we are somewhat more fortunate as our two offices, one in Russia and one in the USA have different hoiday dates by two weeks for Christmas and New Years.

I really appreciated the Xandros review, however, I do see things a bit differently than the reviewer in regards to Windows compatilibity, and networking.

As regards to Windows compatibility, I would see this as a major feature, especially for the SOHO environment. Something that the reviewer didn't mention was that Xandros Deluxe 2.0 includes a trial copy of Win4Lin, that will run for 4 hours at a time -- which is plenty for most SOHO users -- Why this wouldn't be a major feature for the reviewer, I don't know, as he mentions that he has more than one Windows machine. There are many people I know that having Win4Lin would enable them to run Linux full time on there machine, as they would no longer have to dual boot, or have a Windows machine on their network to run such programs as Intuit QuickBooks (which many SOHO's use). And like it or not, there are still programs on Windows that don't have an equal on Linux, so Windows compatilibity is a major selling point.

As far as home networking, when is SneakerNet EVER better than a real network? I personally have all my data files on my server, which is backed up regularly, and which I can access from all of my Linux and Windows machines, so I can get my data files from any machine on my network, and I always know I am working on the latest version. No worrying about, "Well I copied it to that machine... did I copy the latest version back?"

And printing across the network is easy to set up (or at least it is in my experience), and it much preferable to getting up and unplugging cables (which can damage the cables and if there is a static discharge, possibly damage your computer).

Personally, I started running DOSLinux when Windows was crashing on me more than I could handle, then I switched to Debian, and now I am running Knoppix on most of my Linux computers, and I plan to switch to ClusterKnoppix, however, I probably will be purchasing a copy of Xandros primarily because they include Win4Lin, which should enable me to completely eliminate Windows as a primary OS on any of my computers.

Bla bla bla any intressting points or just the usual crap?
Stick to Windows but please stop commenting like a fool, who cares?

Too much choice.

Someone unfamiliar with computers and Linux does not want to choose, he just wants it to work.

A problem of Windows:

No choice.

Guess what, Windows is simpler. But the problem of choice in Linux can be solved by a distribution, like Xandros. Windows is not inherently easier than "a Linux OS", it's just that everyone is already used to it and that Linux for the desktop is just maturing. People should not want one uniform Linux OS dominating the market, especially not of a commercial company. We all know what that brings...

I agree with Bas. If your not willing to do a bit of legwork, you arent ready for linux yet. Wait a few years when offical drivers and commerical software is more readily avaliable for linux(nativly, not via wine). For me, its fantasic. Im not really a PC gamer(all I have is UT2k3,q3, and neverwinter nights) and the apps are adequte for me or better than their windows conterparts(K3B spanks nero, xmms kills winamp).

Windows is not inherently easier than "a Linux OS", it's just that everyone is already used to it and that Linux for the desktop is just maturing.

Really? When I browse to a site that uses Flash in internet explorer, I just click "yes" and the content appears. How do you do so in Linux? Can I just install any .exe file on Windows? Can I do the same with Linux software? And how about the release cycle. How often am I supposed to upgrade my Windows installation? Every 3 years? With Linux, (except server distros), it appears most distributions are on a 6 month or one year cycle.

Actually, that's Linux not being ready for people. People don't have to adapt to software. People write software for other people, not the other way around. People use what works best, and what is easiest, and what is cheapest. Price is important, but if you only have one of the three.. it doesn't matter.

<<This is largely due to Codeweavers out of the box.>>

Two years ago Lindows.com did a "one-eighty" with running MS Windows software. We seem to be one of the few Linux distros who now believes in a COMPLETE Linux solution, not just having a Linux OS.

If someone wants to use MS Office, they'll probably just keep using MS Windows. Lindows.com believes in a NEW world, where not just the OS, but the applications are stable, secure, use open standards, and are affordable. What good is it to save $100 on an OS, only to still have to turn around and use expensive, bloated, non-secure software that follows non-open formats?

StarOffice and OpenOffice do what they were intended to do much more than WINE does what it was intended to do. We'd rather see improvements come to native Linux apps than band aids like WINE that just let MS keep charging $500 for an office suite.

As for us never talking about it, we've been talking about it very candidly since a few months after we started: http://lindows.com/mswindows


<<Whatever you may think about their OS, *THAT* is the way to do it. Well done, Lindows.>>

Thanks. We are very proud of our strong community, but we're always interested in what other, non-LindowsOS users have to say as well, so yes, we follow these things closely.


<<Lindows has too much commecial Maketing Hype>>

Thank you. We always like compliments. =)

Marketing = Education = More Linux Users = More Linux Software & Services Available = A Good Thing for Linux Users

Ignore Marketing = Uninformed Public = Less Linux Users = Less Linux Software & Services Available = A Good Thing for Microsoft

Linux needs good marketing just as much as it needs good code.


<<Lindows changed all ordinary KDE About Boxes to their own>>

We only do this if we have significantly changed a program. Any re-naming we do is to help consumers. When you go running to MS Windows users with loads of new terms (KDE, GNOME, Debian, Apt-Get, XWindows, XFree, Konquerer, Mozilla, GAIM, etc. etc. etc.), they just get confused and leave. Try visiting a foreign country where no one speaks your language. It's not a comfortable experience. So yes, we do re-name things at times from KGGOOWAB74 to "Calculator." =)

Kevin Carmony
President, Lindows.com, Inc.

>any screenshots from these distros? boring to read an article without screenshots!:)

Xandros 2.0 Screenshots

http://www.xandros.com/dsk_dlx_screenshots.html

<<When I browse to a site that uses Flash in internet explorer, I just click "yes" and the content appears.>>

That's why we go to great lengths to make sure that all of that works fine. Here are just some of the many file types supported by LindowsOS when browsing, in emails, etc., all with no extra work required by the user:

http://lindows.com/filetypes

So yes, you can just click on a flash presentation and it plays. =)

Try it yourself here: http://lindows.com/howto (then click on the link to play)

=)

Kevin

Also, note that the GPL allows this. I can change the name of everything to "Anonymous OS" and sell it for $50 on the internet if I want to. Perhaps you should have considered a more restrictive license (if you have indeed developed anything beyond "hello world") if you don't want people modifying your source code.

Oh. I wasn't referring to Lindows, I was referring to the other types of Linux that are available for free. I find that their price does not make up for their poor quality. Hope I did not unintentionally slander your fine product.

>If someone wants to use MS Office, they'll probably just keep using MS Windows.

Not nescessairly true at all. There's a market for MS Office under Linux and Xandros/Crossover suits that market just fine.

>What good is it to save $100 on an OS, only to still have to turn around and use expensive, bloated, non-secure software that follows non-open formats?

I notice you say *use* not *buy*. Anyone who is looking seriously at moving from Windows to Xandros with Crossover is probably already going to own MSOffice. Therefore the expense is largely irrelavent to most users.

As to why you'd use it, it's simple. I've used Word for years, it's the word processor used by most businesses and it's skill in Word, not Open Office or KOffice, that's going to be useful on the job. Word works just fine for me under Crossover on Xandros, I use it all the time. That means I don't have to learn a new program that simply duplicates the functions of a program I already know and use.

As a Xandros user and poster in the forums, I am a strong proponent of Xandros monitoring their forums instead of leaving them up to the users. By their very nature, Xandros users are less technical and not as likely to be able to provide the kind of support other disto's communities can.

Nobody has mentioned this yet, and it may not be that relevant, but the Xandros Standard Edition (as opposed to the Deluxe Edition) which doen't include Cross-Over (and doesn't have the shiny manual, is only $39.99. Which is alot easier to take, IMHO.

I have followed this series closely, (in daily anticipation of the Xandros review) and I was disappointed by the fact that the features that I love, are not a priority for Brian, Like Integration with Windows File and Print sharing from the File Manager. Oh well, at least he clearly stated form the get go that this was a review from his perspective and the criteria was solely according to his needs (and wants).

I hope, as Frederick Berenstein said, Xandros will take the necessary steps to improve support.

Sauja

I am not a user of Xandros 2.0 -- yet, but I have used 1.0/1.1.

That said, I do take exception to the "price" bashing you did on Xandros -- Xover Office is included in the Deluxe version. It is not included in the others. Compare pricing for this version of Xandros to SuSE Office (based on 8.2) -- which also includes Xover. You'll find it cheaper by $25.00 or so.

You can also purchase a "Standard" version that does not include Xover.

I agree (as stated above), especially since Brian glossed over the CrossOver integration as a feature that he didn't use and wasn't impressed with, then complains about the price, when the crossover license represent nearly half the cost.

Oh well.

Sauja

Now you generally have to embark on a research project, visit the public library, search the web, ask questions on the user forums, beg help from your local LUG, and go earn a degree in computer science before you are qualified to open a new file and actually do anything constructive.

Damn! You mean I got this degree in computer science for nothing?

I am sorry you took it as price bashing.That was not my intent. However I will point out that the latest version of Wine from winehq will run MS Office, Adobe Photoshop, Paint Shop Pro, et. al. I am doubtful if there are any applications officially supported by CrossOver that can't be run under generic wine with a little tweaking.

What CrossOver offers is a convenient interface to make life easier for non-tech users. Certainly a worthy goal. But to me, I just don't need it. Aren't there some aspects of various distros that are included but you personally don't need? The thing is, anyone who wants a bound manual (which is worth at least an addition #20 in value to me) has to order the Deluxe version. Anyone who wants to be able to use the NTFS file sizing utilities needs Deluxe, and so on.

I wasn't trying to bash Xandros. It is a beautiful distro. I was making an economic evaluation of whether it would be cost effective for me personally. That's all.

B. Smith

"Corel sold their Linux and it became Xandros. So look at Xandros"

Well, uhm, yeah, that's why I made the comment guy... (or gal. Either way, you're a tad slow today

Barry,

thank you so much!

I'm sure, all the Team Mepis members read your articles and know to weigh all the issues you brought up. Thanks for all the pointers, we'll work hard on Mepis that it stays the SUV you compared it to and gains a bit of the Sedan and the Hotrod to make it fun to work with for every user.

STIBS
Team Mepis (lacking such a good line like Kevin

"Cost is also a consideration. The version that I received, Xandros 2.0 Deluxe, costs approximately $100 when you include shipping. This is the one of the highest prices on a Linux distro that I know of, and is perilously close to what Microsoft charges for system upgrades"

Maybe so but have you looked at the value they are offering? The Crossover products alone equal the entire price.

"To read the marketing hype, the Xandros File Manager is the crown jewel in the Xandros offering. It's Konqueror."

THIS IS TOTALLY FALSE, XFM shares NO CODE WITH KONQUEROR and is far more than a "modified window layout" it is in fact twice as large codewise

Sure it uses some KDE libraries, but it is NOT KONQUEROR AND SHARES NO CODE WITH IT.

In general this review was long but not to the point, too many unrelated thins about your ideals rather than the product etc. You also really did a very superficial job, you did not even mention the many changes in the Xandros KDE, it is almost unrecognizable, everything from the desktop menu to the control center have been changed to be more user friendly. Xandros also improved small but very important things, like the trash can which can restore files or cd player that palys from your first or second cdrom, not only first like every other Linux distro I tried.

"But for right now they are showing signs (like dropping part of their networking capability without telling the user base, and leaving tech support unmanned over a holiday following their new release, and neglecting to mention a few details about installing from a CD-ROM in their instructions) of being behind the curve. "

I believe them, I really think it was an omission that the comparrison charts didn't have the business edition. If it wasn't I'm still happy that they give a free upgrade for those who needed it.

Also on the XANDROS DELUXE 2 BOX THERE IS A COMPARRISON BeTWEEN THE BUSINESS EDITION, STANDARD, AND DELUXE.

Also oddly, many amny amny features are listed on it which i have confirmed to be there, but THEY ARE NOT LISTED ON THE WEBSITE. This includes hyperthreading support, AMD64 support and dozens of other features. Quite strange.

"Actually, I don't recall him ever saying he was trying to be fair or impartial."

He did here:

"On the other hand, Xandros will get as fair an evaluation as I am capable of doing and really have a chance to prove itself against all of them at once."

Perhaps you should read the article before trying to recall something about it.

Is it possible to get the Standard edition (or any other Linux distro for that matter) and simply use plain 'vanilla' wine to run Office XP, Dreamweaver, et? I know that Crossover makes it easier, I'm just wondering if it's possible to run these apps without it.

I am having crazy problems.

First off I was a Xandros fan, so people may remember that I am starting an non profit group and Xandros was one of the versions (With Lindows) I was going to teach to non techie people. I was really in to them and excited about Xandros 2 coming out but now I must admit that I am now in the pot of disappointed people, so much so that I would ask for a refund if I could!

How can a company go backwards and make a product that is much worst then the previous??

Let me start on the basics!

I am installing this on 2 machines. Both ran 1.1 fine. The one is my laptop which is a Gateway 400 VTX P4 2GHZ 40 GB HD with Intel nic card 256 MB of ram and built in CDRW/DVD player.

The other is a AMD 2000+ , AMD motherboard, Nvidia 64 MB video card, Intel Nic, 500 MB ram, 40 GB HD.

1. First off I didn't know that they were taking out the domain login feature that was in 1 and 1.1! I upgraded to 2 and low and behold now I can't login to my Windows 2000, NT mixed mode environment! What's up with that??? I was shocked, I never saw it written anywhere in Xandros documentation that this feature would not be in the deluxe edition! Just that alone blew my high! But I figured since I have it and I can't get a refund let me at least try it out before I go back to 1.1.

2. That brings me to point #2. When I upgraded to version 2 my nic card stopped working. Ok I know what people are going to say "Maybe you got a bad CD or download!" (Well I downloaded the iso on 2 different machines and burned it 4 TIMES!) Maybe the upgrade didn't work? So I installed the full version 3 times on my laptop but it got stuck on the boot up when trying to install on my desktop (Even though 1.1 installs and runs fine)! So I tried from the control center and from the command line to restart the Nic card and I get the error: SIOCSIFFLAGS: invalid argument! Now I know this is probably an IRQ problem or something but there is no easy way to fix this without editing files and playing around. (Hummm this worked fine in 1.1 didn't have to tweak my install like that!)

3. Well I did get Xandros 2 installed on my laptop but guess what! The file manager locks up, I can't read my NTFS partition without crashing the file manager. Can't burn a CD without crashing it. (And yes, I reinstalled, reinstalled, reinstalled till I couldn't reinstall anymore!)

Anyway back to 1.1 I go (Or on to something else) This is one of the worse releases of any version of Linux I have ever seen. :-(

(I hate to be that critical about any thing but this was a big waste of time. And $99)

(Note: After much whining to Xandros I did get the following info from them about Windows Domain support.)

Hi everyone.

To make up for our miscommunication and oversight, I will offer anyone who bought the V2 Deluxe product and need Domain and AD authentication support free upgrade to the Business product. All you will need to pay is the S&H charges - US $9.95 to US and Canada.

However, I must emphasize that we had alsolutely zero intention of deceiving anyone. It was a mere oversight that our sales and marketing team did not complete the product comparison matrix with the Business Edition as a third column at this time. They were planning on doing that when the Business Edition is launched.

Contact shop@xandros.com after the Business Edition becomes available. Once again, I apologize for our miscommunication.

Thanks,
Ming Poon
Xandros Employee

"Windows gives me 1 screen style straightup, Linux I have to fluster through 2 (KDE/gnome)."

Most of the Linux distros that aim toward ease of use make the choice of desktop for you, and you either have to jump through a few hoops to tell the installer explicitly to use a different desktop (as in Red Hat or SUSE), or you get no choice at all (as in Lindows or Xandros).

"Windows installs and just gives me everything and then hides it until needed, Linux makes me pick and choose from 20 different things that do the same task but not quite."

Again, nowadays, most of the Linux distros that aim toward ease of use make those sorts of choices for you. You have to deliberately choose the customize the list of installed packages in order to choose from those "20 different things," and in the case of Red Hat, it's more like a choice of three or four things.

"Windows just works without 'dependency issues' such as newest library of such and such, Linux flakes on the installation of a single new entity."

For me to answer this, I'd have to know what you were talking about.

"Windows auto recognizes almost everything I can buy and throw at it, Linux requies more hunting and searching and dreaded 'dependency updates'."

Most Linux distro autodetect hardware just fine, so long as there are Linux drivers for the hardware. The same can be said for Windows. The main difference is that hardware manufacturers tend to provide their own Windows drivers but not ones for Linux, so naturally Windows will work with nearly all your hardware.

"I tried Linux once this year and I am in full agreement with the autor, I want the control Linux provides, but I want it in a way that works for lazy people such as myself."

If you want too be as "lazy" as you are with Windows, Linux isn't there yet. If you are willing to be slightly less "lazy," you can manage with Lindows, Xandros, Red Hat, and maybe even SUSE.

"One last thought, in my home I want to play games, surf the web, and do new and interesting things with my computer,"

Surf the web? Linux can do that.
New and interesting things? Linux can do that.
Play games? If you are talking Tetris and Solitare, any modern Linux will do. If you want Quake and such, you'll need Lindows, Xandros, or SUSE to be "lazy."

"I do not want to resort to a second computer to research problems everytime something goes wrong."

Then get a Linux distro with a manual and phone support.

"and I want everything to generally work out of the box (if not then give me a 'big fluffy hardcopy manual')."

I do not pretend that Linux is perfect; I can name its faults better than you, and see where its failings as a desktop really are. If Windows XP works better out of the box for you, then so be it. Your problems make you a great case study in the ups and downs of Linux's usability, but do not make you an expert at Linux's faults.

XFM is not a modification of Konqueror, it is written from scratch by a then Corel team.

other than that, this articile is pretty good.

>Is it possible to get the Standard edition (or any other Linux distro for that matter) and simply use plain 'vanilla' wine to run Office XP, Dreamweaver, et? I know that Crossover makes it easier, I'm just wondering if it's possible to run these apps without it.

Sure, you can also install Crossover seperately if you already have it or regular wine or winex with no problems. Regular wine will run as well or poorly on Xandros as it does on any other distro.

The main reason most of the people I know who use Xandros buy the deluxe edition is not for crossover office but for the domain support (Which was in 1 and 1.1 but no one knew would not be in 2) and for the ability to resize NTFS partitions with ease. (Can do that with the standard edition out the box)