OSNews

I'm wondering-- is there an Apple Store in the Netherlands? Never saw one, anyway...

Nope, only US. I think there are some in Japan and Australia though, not sure.
http://www.apple.com/retail/

Not a very good move by Apple-- Since Apple is kind of a synonym for 'style', you'd expect them to open shops in Europe... and no this isn't chauvinism, it's just that people always say Europe is more stylish.

Anyway, maybe they'll change their policy... One day

Their retail shops are very new. They started them only 2-3 years ago. So it makes sense to start and put a business foot in the US first and then expand to other countries, as long the business is successful.

It's interesting that Eugenia asked about an implementation of .NET on Mac. I'd seriously consider purchasing a Mac if there was a stable, mature implementation on Macs. The good news is that Ximian(now part of Novell) is hiring another JIT(Just in Time) programmer so that maybe the powerpc port will come along faster. IIRC, the powerpc/Mac version of mono can only Mint(the interpreter) at this time. Maybe, once the powerpc mono is more mature Apple will throw some resources behind it. Xcode looks nice(amazing that the previous IDE didn't have intellisense before) and I'm sure writing c# code in it would be great.

I want to write cross-platform apps(I have no desire to write java) and since Mac development is done primarily in java and Objective-c, I can't get excited about a mac purchase.

to the one in PA last nite, but not having the $$ to spend kind of sucks. Also, there appears to be a number of bugs that need resolving (check out macslash.org) and I would rather wait since that is the case.

a lot of Bugs seem to be on the Machines of People who upgraded from 10.1 to 10.2 then to 10.3

a lot of upgrading is never a good idea on any OS because there is always something hat is missed.

I have not read about any problems from a person who did a clean install.

I also here that Archive and instal has worked with out a hitch, so that might be the way to go.

Mono is the only client available right now that is not run by MS, and MS's CLI only runs on Windows (there was supposed to be a BSD CLI but I have not seen nor heard anything about this)

plus, most of the Libraries in MS's CLI are proprietary and cannot be ported over to other platforms unless MS makes a port or they are reverse engineered.

Java, Python, Perl, Ruby, etc. are much better cross platform tools and even ANSI/ISO C++ using wxWindows or QT is a good choice. you should do some stuff with system calls, but it makes porting harder which is why java is a good choice, the system calls are done by the VM.

As I stated before, I'm not interested in java. I pretty much believe that java is dead on the client. As far as python and ruby, I've done a very small amount of python work at it seems like a nice language, but I just don't it's really a good choice for large applications. I think there are performance issues with python as well as Ruby. I'll just leave Perl alone. C++ and wxWindows is pretty nice for cross-platform work, but I do too much c++ programming the way things are.

[i]plus, most of the Libraries in MS's CLI are proprietary and cannot be ported over to other platforms unless MS makes a port or they are reverse engineered.[i]

Most of the .NET framework is not in the ecmca spec, but these are just apis and don't need to be reverse-engineered. Remember, mono is not using ROTOR as a reference, so the entire FCL has to be "engineered". The only big problem is Windows Forms, which pinvokes into native libraries so mono is going to have a wine library to handle that. In DotGNU's windows forms implementation, they took the approach of just using System.Drawing for the underlying drawing mechanism, so that a DotGNU binary will run on DotGNU and windows. On a related note, DotGNU's runtime seems to be running on Macs fine. I think the difference is that they have some kind of hybrid JIT/interpretation going on for right now.

If Mac doesn't get a .NET implementation, that's fine. I'll be happy with windows and linux.

Is it just me or does the general population at computer stores seem to weigh a little more than the normal population?

I was reading this and I've seen a few other things on the release of 10.3, but I was just wondering, does anyone know the codename for 10.4, or are the planning on going to 11 next, or what?

Just curious.

I don't know the codename, but it is probably another cat. So, it could be "lynx" (or there was one already?), or Sabretooth (or is it sawtooth? , Leopard, Cougar, Bobcat. More info: http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/07/20030724025054.shtml

my point about the CLI and the APIs is that you will have to have a mono port of APIs for windows for you to get cross-platform work done.

as far as Java client being dead...you sound like my friend. IMHO Java is not close to dead, but for consumer applications it sure is. custom made Business apps on the other hand are still strong because you can work from one code base for X number of platforms. it is cheaper to implement because of that.

but that is just My Opinion.

as for Python, dude, Python is totally capable of being used to make large apps (well, were are not talking FPS games here, but for most tasks, Python can handle it. besides, having a heap-dynamic allocation and dynamic binding of variables is nice :-)

"The only big problem is Windows Forms, which pinvokes into native libraries so mono is going to have a wine library to handle that."

Wine? Um, unless I'm missing something, that pretty much defeats the "cross-platformness" of .NET. Wine is obviously tied to the x86 architecture.

Nope, only US. I think there are some in Japan and Australia though, not sure.
http://www.apple.com/retail/


The first Apple store I was ever in was in Bangkok Thailand. I was over there during the release of the first OS X and they made quite a big to do about it in Bangkok's 'Siam Discovery Center', complete with a few girls dressed up as Space Bunnies.

... is the most secure browser for Windows.. ;-)

Apple -- will most likely do for Mono what they do for many other open source technologies. they will take the core and modify it to fit their OS nicely.

Microsoft HAS released a CLI for BSD, but it is incomplete. Mono is re-writing the entire engine using Microsoft as a model. Mono ALSO already runs on Windows machines.

As far as programming paradigms go -- C# has some language enhancements that Java does not. Programming in .NET is also easier BECAUSE of the tools...I never was a command line programmer and many of the newer generation funbles their way through it. The tools are what makes it all come together -- so if Apple implemented a solid version of MONO with all of its components (including ADO.NET and ASP.NET for Apache) and integrated it into their tools (XCode and Interface Builder) it would give them a MASSIVE leg up on other platforms.

Why would you want to develop on any other platform -- you can choose OS X and write Perl apps, Python apps, Java apps, .NET apps (which means C#, VB.Net, even Java), and traditional apps. It would be fabulous...no need to argue who's language is dead or alive...just get a Mac and you CHOOSE how you want to develop.

I can't wait for that day! I believe in my heart of hearts it is coming.

"The first Apple store I was ever in was in Bangkok Thailand. I was over there during the release of the first OS X and they made quite a big to do about it in Bangkok's 'Siam Discovery Center', complete with a few girls dressed up as Space Bunnies."

That's not an Apple Store, but an Apple Authorised Reseller. Apple Stores are a retail chain of Apple themselves and not 3rd parties.

No Apple Store exists outside the U.S. to date; although a Tokyo, Japan location is apparently coming up soon: http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/02/20030222154813.shtml

That's not an Apple Store, but an Apple Authorised Reseller. Apple Stores are a retail chain of Apple themselves and not 3rd parties.

U know maybe they were an 'Apple Store' in that Thailand 'fake authenticity' sort of way, cos they sure made it look like the domestic Apple Stores

and? does osx panther rock or is it sulky?

i don't know what the fuss is about, i have had to write crap in C#/VB.Net and it sucks. most .Net developers don't like it and wouldn't use it if they didn't have to. it's obviously not cross-platform, it's just another lame attempt at MS 'innovation'. but back on topic...

i do like the macs and i've been impressed with OSX, but for some reason i find it lacking something i can't quite put my finger on. but being a 'command line programmer' i spend large amounts of my mac time on a terminal so a lot of the GUI is wasted on me. i guess my biggest complaint though, and i know apple wants to be different, but dammit give me another mouse button!! i know you can hold down the one button for right-click menus but it's such a waste of time. i guess that's the main reason i stay on the terminal so much on there. i hate the mouse.

You do know that you can buy a third party multi-button mouse and use it with OS X right?

In fact, any usb mouse will work flawlessly, out-of-the-box with Mac OS X, without needing special drivers etc, and will behave just like a multi-button with windows (2nd mouse button for contextual menu, scrollwheel for scrolling, etc).

USB mice are what? 20 dollars maybe! If you are so unhappy with the one button mouse, just get yourself another!

I stayed up all night playing with this fabulous Operating System. I performed a clean install around 9pn and the system has ran flawlessly since, no bugs, no crashes.

In fact, DVArchive (Replay TV client application) works flawlesssly now and didn't run as near as well with Jaguar.

OSX is incredible, if you have't seen it in person yet, go to compusa or your apple store and play around with it.

-GG

Here is the official Apple.com Store in your country's language (Flameng ?) >>

http://store.apple.com/Apple/WebObjects/nlstore

You have better luck than us here in Portugal (the eastern country of Euroland puts us out). Anyway, we have plenty of nice apple retailers here, problem is: they make the prices they want to.

There used to be AppleCenters around the Netherlands, run by Apple. Those vanished and now we only have generic computer shops that may sell Apple products. You can check Apple's website for official dealers. I shopped around for my new G5 and found prices to be higher than on the AppleStore Website so my G5 came from Apple directly.

Portugal (the eastern country
I meant the western...

>around for my new G5 and found prices to be higher than on >the AppleStore Website so my G5 came from Apple directly.

Same here for prices.
____________
That guy with a black T-Shirt on the first raw of pictures looks like Bill Gates ...

Roy B. wrote:
I want to write cross-platform apps(I have no desire to write java) and since Mac development is done primarily in java and Objective-c, I can't get excited about a mac purchase.

You can use Obj-C for the GUI, and C++ for the rest. It works well for me so far.

As I stated before, I'm not interested in java. I pretty much believe that java is dead on the client.

I think you've got that one right.

but I do too much c++ programming the way things are.

Hmm... well, then maybe you *would* like Objective-C. It's pretty much the same
as C++ except:
- Slightly different member function calling syntax.
- All objects get created on the heap and you just pass pointers around.
- Everyone agrees on how to deal with telling the runtime system whether you'd
like the object pointed-to to be kept around. (see "autorelease pool")
- All member functions are public. All member variables are private. All inheritance
is public.

By the way, I just upgraded to Panther, and it is really *really* nice.

if all objects are created on the heap, how do they maintain the binding of the pointer to the object while it is in scope? is it not possible to reassign the pointer to another memory location when dealing with object creation?

what if I want a private function and a public variable? is this not possible?

also, what if I want my inheritance to be private to the user of the new class?

From: Eugenia,
I think there are some in[...]Australia though, not sure.

Not as yet, but we live in hope.

The stores here are called 'AppleCentres', and they range in size from very tiny, to moderately large. Unfortunately, there are less of them as time goes on.

When Rob Enderle stated that Apple is in long-term decline a few weeks ago... from my experiences and the experiences of those outside of North America, that's the impression you get. Those sticking with the Macintosh are doing so in spite of Apple, rather than because of it.

Apple HQ themselves don't help by being essentially 'hostile' to any ideas, promotions or enhancements that don't come from their staff in North America. Those ideas, promotions and enhancements that then do come out generally only work if you're in North America, As long as this attitude continues, so will their pitiful world marketshare.

any one know of the apple script syntax I need to connect to a remote SMB server? I would like to automate this at boot time. (I have not installed Panther yet so I do not know if this is a feature in Panther or not)

Sorry if I offend anyone, but from the pictures it seemed more like a "goofy looking white folk" convention than anything else.

Hmmm... must be because I never seem to work with americans anymore... You guys really dress like that now?

you mean how people lined up for the XBOX or windows 95?

im not a culty, but I can at least admit when something is good. you are like my friends, they all say macs suck and they have never used them.

I use to HATE apple back in teh classic OS days, but after OS X came out, the Unix geek in me said (woo, I get Unix user land tools)

OS X is all Linux should be.

Bill and Steve are actually the same guy - like Jekyll and Hyde or Batman and Bruce Wayne. Why do you think BG bailed out Apple? Ever seen them together on the same podium?

Microsoft bought non-voting Apple stock (what you call a bail out) as part of the GUI lawsuit settelment. MS sold it at a tidy proffit a few years latter.

hardly meets the same conotation that you wish it could.

I did a clean install of Panther and had no problems at all. I find Panther to be very much cleaner and crisper responding then Jaguar. This is on a 800 MHz G-4 iMac w/768 MB RAM.

I also created a 20GB partition on the drive (thanks Eugenia!) and installed Yellowdog Linux 3.0. That install went well also. The only problem I'm having is getting X to work. YDL found the graphics card, but couldn't make out the 17" LCD monitor. Oh, well. I'll poke around the web and see if I can find out some more info.

In my opinion, the $199 + tax and shipping (Family pack price) was well worth it. I'm finding Panther to be much nicer in many ways to Jaguar.

Well Bill actually saved Apples' arse by generating confidence in Apple. The actual amount of money was trivial but the PR value was priceless.

BTW Apple has forgotten the first rule of business "the thicker the carpet the thinner the margins". This type of luxury retailing adds hugely to the cost of the product (20-30%?). Dell is big primarily because it operates on razor- thin margins.

what business school did you learn that in?

Apple has the profits becasue it plays to the middle of the market and has equal pricing for machines in that range.

Dell makes money because it has the volume, but it makes most of its money in the middle of the market just like apple.

apple doe snot have 20 - 30% margins, that is a misconception by people who price out a DIY PC with less features than a mac, neglecting the fact that tehy spent time building it and if they were to sell it would be selling it for more than they bought the parts for.

you go to dell and you will find a machine with the same specs as a mac (the Processor speed is not one to compair unless you are an ignorent consumer who has no clue about the relivence on Processor speed) you will find that a simmilarly speced Dell costs almost the same, some times more some times less, but always close the the Mac.

is the mac as configurable as the Dell? no. but that does not mean the Mac is more expensive than the dell, that just means Dell lets you get less and pay less.

What's this "I want to program cross platform but I don't want to work at it" crap? Gimme a break. You either want to make apps cross platform, in which case you either a) do the whole thing in Java and leave out platform specific enhancements or b) program the core of the program to be cross platform and only move over what absolutely needed to be platform specific. I have never had to port more than 4-5% of any C++ program when working that way.

Microsoft's .NET is not the answer. It is not cross platform and Microsoft never intended it to be. It was purposely designed to lock programmers to Windows and it will always be that way. Microsoft will just make small changes to the platform that will break any ports just as they've always done with the Windows API itself to avoid compatibility with the emulators.

You can stop spewing the Microsoft "Java is dead" line too. Java isn't as strong as it could be, but it's far from being dead. They would've stopped teaching it at colleges all over the place if it was truly dead and I don't know of a single school that offer CS courses that doesn't teach Java right along with C, C++ and VB. And I certainly don't know a single programmer that would use .NET if it wasn't being forced on them. It's very clunky.

The problem is programmers that want to take the lazy route when it comes to porting programs. Just suck it up and do the work the right way.

Count me as one VERY satisfied Panther user. I did a clean install on my 700 megahertz iBook and it has been flawless. As has been said before, Expose really rocks. I've got a 5 button intellimouse explorer, so I assigned the Expose functions to the two button near my thumb (buttons 4 and 5). This is a really intuitive way to use Expose, I think, and after just 1 day of using it, I don't know how I ever did without it. It makes managing multiple windows so freakin' easy.

Also, the new Finder is much better, everything is very snappy and much quicker than Jaguar. In addition to the major updates, there are all sorts of little tweaks and enhancements that I keep discovering.

Check out some of the cool Panther hints that are being uncovered here:

http://www.macosxhints.com/

I think we have all been waiting for this new operating system to get released, and Panther is GREAT! I'm in love with this Expose, really cuts my time when working in half.

The party at the Apple Store in Washington State was pretty cool, loads of people waiting in line. Just a great day and release overall!

Is it possible to somehow gain all the speed benefits of 10.3, patched into 10.2 by somehow installing the latest version of BSD Darwin in place of the version 10.2 uses?

This is of course, assuming there is a PPC version of Darwin... at the same version number as the X86 one...

Luposian

Less people than last year? I've read other peoples stories about going to these events and everyone of them said that there were more people and that they were generally packed.

Also what is with people & .NET ? Seriously i had .NET and went to Cocoa API because it was a much better framework for developing applications. Seriously why is everyone wanting .NET for their OS/platform ? Why don't you enhance the API for your current OS or use Java if you need cross platform? I just hear about Mono and .NET on other OS's and I don't get it. I have .NET too and there is nothing incredibly special about it and infact some things MS did that made coding with it take longer. Seriously hearing people want .NET is like hearing a Linux user who can't wait to buy a copy of Windows or someone wanting a Ford over Ferrari (im just basing this on value of cars i really don't have a favorite or care that much about cars.)

Cocoa is a much better API for developing applications on Mac OS X. If you are using Linux use GTK or QT or whatever you use. If you need cross platform use Java, just don't use .NET.

[quote]apple doe snot have 20 - 30% margins, that is a misconception by people who price out a DIY PC with less features than a mac, neglecting the fact that tehy spent time building it and if they were to sell it would be selling it for more than they bought the parts for.[/quote]
Apple charges a lot more then OEM market price for memory (I'd say twice the normal price). Therefore, if you want a really loaded machine, it is a lot cheaper to buy memory separately and install it yourself.

Why don't you enhance the API for your current OS
...and more jibberish..Seriously hearing people want .NET is like hearing a Linux user who can't wait to buy a copy of Windows or someone wanting a Ford over Ferrari

There are professionals out there that can help you with your problems.

Yes, they live in Redmond.

It's quite simple really. Buy a copy of Microsoft Virtual PC
And a copy of Microsoft Windows
Then install .NET environment. Bingo.

..Or just use software which isn't dependent on the latest efforts of a monopolist to remain as such.

I never tried. Darwin is kept up-to-date and in sync with Mac OS X; the source code for Darwin 7.0, which corresponds to Mac OS X 10.3 (Panther), was made available few hours after Panther's release. According to the Darwin Q&A, patching Mac OS X with Darwin code *is* possible in most, but not *all* cases: some libraries in Mac OS X are half-open source, half-closed source, meaning that they have copyrighted enhancements Darwin does not contain. Those would break.

So I guess you could try replacing some stuff, like the kernel, the gcc version, etc. But be *very* careful with it.

"Nope, only US. I think there are some in Japan and Australia though, not sure."

there's one in dublin

Wine? Um, unless I'm missing something, that pretty much defeats the "cross-platformness" of .NET. Wine is obviously tied to the x86 architecture.

That is incorrect, WineLib apps can run on any platform to which Wine has been ported, you just lose the ability to run x86 EXE files. Mono does not need that ability, so it'd work fine.

Having said that, using a toolkit that doesn't suck, like GTK+ would be a lot better than SWF any day.

In the Netherlandse, we have 'Apple Centres' too. They are 3rd party but kinda resemble the Apple Stores in style (although no glass staircase). They had Panther night too.

...by signing this petition:
http://alfebiite.ee.ic.ac.uk/%7Edkaponis/osxpetition/

Please, anyone and everyone, be of a GREAT help to us the Greek Mac fellow users...

:)

no...your joking!!! an OEM charges a premium for memory that they tested o know it works well on their systems!!

and you think this is typical of only apple?

Check dell prices for new memory.

to upgrade a dimension desktop to 512 MB of memory, it costs 90 bucks.

to upgrade an iMac to 512 MB of memory costs 100 bucks.

10 dollars more means apple is gouging?

pal, Apple is not gouging the consumer on Memory or drive space any more than Dell or Gateway or HP.

hmm...post did not show up, if this duplicates an idea in one of the posts on this page by me, I apologize.

OEMs gouge on memory!!! wow whoda-thunk-it.

this practice is not exclusive to apple. Dell charges 90 bucks for an upgrade from 256 MBs to 512 MBs.

apples price for the same upgrade? 100 bucks

10 dollars makes apple 20 -30% in margins?

Apple price for upgrade from 256 MB to 512 MB $100

Dell Price for upgrade from 256 MB to 512 MB $90

the price for 1GB is much more for both Dell and Apple, but Apple is at 400 while Dell is at 220, however, the number of consumers who actually have or want or need 1 GB of ram is very very small. the reason Apple has a 400 dollar 1 GB is because that is 2X their one DIMM price of 512MB.

Dell does not say weather you get one DIMM for the price quoted for 512 MB, but considering that they do not say I would hazard a guess that they have filled 4 banks with 256MB DIMMs, making it much cheaper.

and the reason apple has to offer only a choice of one or 2 DIMMs is because the iMac form factor and the emac form factor only gives you 2 slots.

in both cases, crucial beats Dell and apple by a significant amount.

Apple is not gouging the customer any more than Dell does. the only difference is that Dell can gouge on the price of 256 MB modules, while apple must do so on larger modules in order to allow for the appropriate amount of memory options.

Are there in font improvements in Panther?

There are two things that I don't like about OS X. Finder and the fonts.

Gnome 2 has very nice anti-aliased fonts.

With OS X I feel like I am back in Gnome 1.x land.

I made them during the time that OS news must have been having trouble with posting.

feel free to Delete the last 2.

I'm glad the reviewer considered my comment above not to be trolling, to the person who reported it, please consider

If you approach Microsoft, saying " I wish to run a binary designed for the newest Microsoft API platform on a non-microsoft OS environment ", what would they say?

"Please hold on while we pass you to sales, who will sell you a Microsoft OS platform"

Like it or not, .NET is Microsoft's own API entirely built in house ( probably a first for them, most prior MS products have at least some external code or API influence in them, OS/2 for the NT series and Q-DOS for Win9x )

I doubt they'll be ready to share the joy by porting it to Mac. Microsoft's policy re emulation technology appears to be to support it as a way of helping migration to their own platform.

Apologies to OSNews.com for going offtopic

"what business school did you learn that in?"

It is one of the principal maxims of business.

"Apple has the profits becasue it plays to the middle of the market and has equal pricing for machines in that range."

For laptops maybe. In desktops Apple is considerab;y more expensive. Fact.

Dell makes money because it has the volume, but it makes most of its money in the middle of the market just like apple.

"apple doe snot have 20 - 30% margins, that is a misconception by people who price out a DIY PC with less features than a mac, neglecting the fact that tehy spent time building it and if they were to sell it would be selling it for more than they bought the parts for."

Apples are mostly built in low wage countries. The labour costs in assembling an Apple would be trivial - probably less than US$5.

The labour cost to assemble PC is trivial - it is very low skill procedure requiring nothing more than a Philips head screwdriver and 30-60 minutes labour.

"you go to dell and you will find a machine with the same specs as a mac (the Processor speed is not one to compair unless you are an ignorent consumer who has no clue about the relivence on Processor speed) you will find that a simmilarly speced Dell costs almost the same, some times more some times less, but always close the the Mac."

A desktop Apple with comparable performance costs as much as 2-3 times a PC. A sub US$1000 3GHz P4 effortlessly outperforms any Mac except the dual 2GHZ G5 in any situation. Don't bring Dell into it. A quality whitebox is far better made than any branded personal computer by any major manufacturer. Macs aren't lovingly made by elves in the Swiss Alps but by by the same low paid Chinese workers using mostly the same inexpensive OEM components as other major brands.

The whole MHZ myth is just that. It is stupid as saying a 1.8 litre BMW 4 cylinder engine is more powerful than a 5.7 litre Corvette V8. Sure the BMW might put out more power per litre but the Corvette still has more than twice the power. No sane person would say a BMW318i is a faster car than a Corvette.

"is the mac as configurable as the Dell? no. but that does not mean the Mac is more expensive than the dell, that just means Dell lets you get less and pay less."

OS is purely a matter of choice. To be honest there is no half-decent mainstream OS on the market.

Thom A. Holwerda (IP: ---.quicknet.nl) - Posted on 2003-10-25 19:39:52
Not a very good move by Apple-- Since Apple is kind of a synonym for 'style', you'd expect them to open shops in Europe... and no this isn't chauvinism, it's just that people always say Europe is more stylish.

I wouldn't call it "chauvinism", more of a fact ;-) Just look at GWB, eek, what is that potato sack he calls a suite, eek, it reaks of Texas cheapness, even Putin as an ex-KGB agent can chose a better suite, "The CIA may have won the intelligence war but we one the style battle!" ;-)

Roy Batty (IP: ---.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net) - Posted on 2003-10-25 19:43:54
It's interesting that Eugenia asked about an implementation of .NET on Mac. I'd seriously consider purchasing a Mac if there was a stable, mature implementation on Macs. The good news is that Ximian(now part of Novell) is hiring another JIT(Just in Time) programmer so that maybe the powerpc port will come along faster. IIRC, the powerpc/Mac version of mono can only Mint(the interpreter) at this time. Maybe, once the powerpc mono is more mature Apple will throw some resources behind it. Xcode looks nice(amazing that the previous IDE didn't have intellisense before) and I'm sure writing c# code in it would be great.
What is wrong with Java? It does the job, doesn't it? I find it rather humorous people asking for .NET when there are no applications yet written in it. Even with all the hoo-ha made about managed C++ and the supposed ease of migration, I have yet to see software companies embrace it.

If it means a lower mantainance costs for code, the most logical thing would be for software companies to embrace it. Obviously if hasn't been embraced, the cost of migration is beaten by the so-called benefits that are given by Microsoft.

When Microsoft starts producing PURE dot-net applications then we'll start seeing people considering migrating to managed C++.

As for your insinuation that Java is dead on the client, how about the java macro capabilities being added to Staroffice? or the move to push Java as a replacement for VB? There is nothing wrong with Java, there are just too many people who complain that it is "harder than VB".

If I can move from BBC BASIC, COBOL and AMOS to Java, I am sure anyone can.

Soeren Kuklau (IP: ---.dip.t-dialin.net) - Posted on 2003-10-25 20:54:49
"The only big problem is Windows Forms, which pinvokes into native libraries so mono is going to have a wine library to handle that."

Wine? Um, unless I'm missing something, that pretty much defeats the "cross-platformness" of .NET. Wine is obviously tied to the x86 architecture.

That is correct. Since .NET is compiled into MSIL if it calls on external resources, it doesn't matter as long as the result come backs as expected. Winlib is available on PowerPC making it possible for people to recompile small win32 applications with minimum recompiling.

What is required, however, is a Quartz driver to be created as a replacement for X11drv which is used as a "replacement" for GDI/GDI+ and other numerous TLAs.

SomeOne... or other! (IP: ---.nsw.bigpond.net.au) - Posted on 2003-10-26 01:34:40
From: Eugenia, I think there are some in[...]Australia though, not sure. Not as yet, but we live in hope.

The stores here are called 'AppleCentres', and they range in size from very tiny, to moderately large. Unfortunately, there are less of them as time goes on.

Well, considering that their new retail outlets will sit within David Jones, do we really need more vendors as the current ones are going under due to poor management?

Apple is getting their products into the likes of David Jones because that is their target market. No Joe Bloggs, local cheapskate and pirate but Jane GoldCard who is willing to spend the extra for style as well as substance.

Anonymous (IP: ---.tpgi.com.au) - Posted on 2003-10-26 03:02:44
"Well Bill actually saved Apples' arse by generating confidence in Apple. The actual amount of money was trivial but the PR value was priceless. "

BTW Apple has forgotten the first rule of business "the thicker the carpet the thinner the margins". This type of luxury retailing adds hugely to the cost of the product (20-30%?). Dell is big primarily because it operates on razor- thin margins.

I find that statement rather funny. Ok, I'll give you an example. Dell is a Big W and Apple is David Jones. David Jones made $6.48billion in revenues IIRC around $100million in profit. Their target audience is Joe Cheapskate, it is Jane GoldCard and Joe "I don't want to have some cheap suite that looks like a Potato sack".

If I was in business I certainly wouldn't catter for the trash that sits in the gutter, I would want to get customers who aways come back and willing to chose MY product over their competition, even if MY product costs slightly more.

Another good one, Dell is the Pizza Haven of computer vendors and Apple is the La Pocetta of computer vendors. Both sell similar products but each target a different market.

Well CooCooCaChoo I'm glad you aren't my finacial advisor. Big W is part of the Woolworths (no relation to the US operation). Woolworths is highly profitable and the second largest retailer in Australia. David Jones has more or less been unprofitable for about 20 years and has changed ownership several times during that period.

Guess who owns Tiffanys the Jewellers? Berkshire Hathaway (controlled by the worlds second richest man Warren Buffet). Have a guess what other brands BH is a major shareholder in - Wendys, Disney and Coca Cola - hardly exclusive stuff.

Apple is now capitalised (corrected for inflation) at less than it was in 1983. Its share of new computer sales is 1/10 of what it was in 1983. Its profit are a tiny fraction of those it made in 1983. So much for courting the exclusive market.

Most exclusive brands are actually owned by huge conglomerates and are often loss leaders. Mercedes Benz makes most of its money from heavy commercial vehicles.

Sorry I have to bring it up.

I've just nipped to pcworld.co.uk and the apple's and
pc's seem to be level. I'm thinking of getting a 1.6 G5
(I'm not too fussed with speed, 1.6 1.8 2.0 ?) or an AMD64 1.8 Ghz Pc.

Both look good now. Apple and AMD are doing well.

To the Forums <-:

OS X 1.3.0 is looking great.
It's nice to see some compertition.
Will Check it out when it arives in
Pcworld.co.uk stores.

It has only been unprofitable in the last 2-3 years when there was some half-witt thinking that they can get into the high volume, low return "luxary" supermarket chain.

Kirkcaldie & Stains Ltd in New Zealand is the Harrods of New Zealand and yet, for over 100 years, it has been making a profit. Stop trying to think that the only way to make money is to sell things is mass volume. Levenes in New Zealand is a prime example of how that "stratergy" can fail in the long term.