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Sadly this item is something Redhat MUST fix. They wrote it in python and it sucks in excess of 40MB while running. Add that in plus all the KDE bloat already there, and well, I wonder if RedHat9 isn't surpassing the M$ bloat.

This sentiment might have been expressed before. Installation isn't the problem with linux. Some distros make it ugly, some make it beautiful. All of the ones I have seen make it pretty much a matter of clicking next a few dozen times and waiting, unless you want to do something tricky like a dual boot system.

The hard part is installing applications that require anything other than what comes with the default distro.

It doesn't reflect RedHat IMHO

The problem with OpenOffice is surely due to a bad CD or a corrupt ISO.

After that, the updater long time is surely due to a slow FTP server. Or, if you have listed here the package to update, we can view if there is big package like KDE or Gnome...

And I agree RedHat must rewrite tha updater. And add urpmi too, or work on apt-get for RPM to integrate this in the distro

Thank$ for your comment$ It$ hard to under$tand bloat $ometime$ i$n't it. Out of curi$ity, why do you $witch your S's and $'s

My linux experience is rather limited, but it just so happens that I just installed Red hat 9 last night… The one problem I had was the fact that it would have been helpful to have some idea as to what size to make the partitions. (No I didn't RTFM either) I think this could have been made easier if the install was in a different order. First Choose your install type, then customize your specific packages to install, then use disk druid, and THEN have the install check to make sure that your partitions are large enough to support what you are asking it to do. Instead you now have to create partitions, customize your packages and when the install begins it checks to see if your partitions are large enough. Doing it in this order makes it a little late when you learn that one of your partitions is too small, because you can not go back to disk druid to change them. Your only option is to restart the entire install…

Other then that – So far, so good…

More than likely, you were downloading KDE updates. They are pretty hefty. I'd like to see the file size you were downloading. Still on a T1 line it should be pretty quick.

I'd also recommend apt for RPM.

That takes me back...

Anyway... some helpful keyboard shortcuts that come default with Redhat9 and KDE...

CTRL-ESC yeilds similar a similar function to the CTR-ALT-DEL "functionality" of Win2k.

CTRL-ALT-ESC is better yet... kill that window! This function pops up a skull and crossbones cursor that you can move anywhere over the offending application's window and with one click, it's gone. Very nice.

There are lot's more keyboard shortcuts to be found on KDE. Just check out the KDE "Control Center" and look in the "Regional & Accessibility" section. There is a "Keyboard Shortcuts section there where you can view and customize shortcuts to your liking.

Of course it never hurts to read the Help files in the KDE Help Center either ;-)

Hope this helps.

They are immature fools who believe that using '$' in place of 's' in spelling Microsoft will give them at least a little bit of acceptance in the Linux crowd (one consisting majorly of zealous children, the true intellectuals tend to pipe down).

When i put Redhat 8.0 on my laptop, it took me at least 8 attempts before it would install correctly.

Seems to be either a problem with IDE drivers, the hardware in the laptop, out of memory errors or something, but the installer would seem to bail out, often on the same package.

The CDs had no errors, as it is now installed and running well.

The lack of the ability to simply continue a partial install, or a reliable way to skip a package is pretty poor. Error recovery is one area that most distros installers are rather poor in.

Hmm. I've installed two copies of RedHat 9 so far, and neither caused problems with OpenOffice. My guess is that you got a bad disk. As for the error message, I must say I prefer the Linux ones. In the face of an I/O error, Windows gives you a bluescreen with some generic "Stop" message, and a hex dump. This error screen proves to be utterly useless to the advanced user (no info in the message, the hex dump doesn't help unless you have are familier with the source code, and there is no kernel debugger) and at the same time be frightening to the newbie (hex-dumps are *not* friendly). As for the update, I must say I hate RedHat 9's updater as well. Never had the patience to wait for it to go all the way through. It should by Python's fault (many more complex apps than an auto-updater have been written in Python, like Zope), though. Of course, Windws Update isn't exactly that great either. I just Windows updated one of my machines today, and I had to sit through a couple of "exlusive" updates (ones that must be installed individually) and several reboots. My Gentoo updates may take hours to compile, but only take 10 seconds (literally) of my personal time.

Interesting. it's good to see how windows user managed to get through linux installation. Next, i'd like to see how this fellow is succeeding with debian or gentoo :-)

A gift from the Debian camp is that someone took the Debian package manager and converted it to work with RPMs.

Check out this site: http://freshrpms.net/

apt-rpm is beginning to gain a lot of popularity among people who use RPM based distros. It isn't perfect, but its a huge step forward toward simplifying life.

There is a GUI frontend for apt called "Synaptic."

One of the best things about Linux is that you can often take what is best from all different Distros and make then work for you.

Its a big world out there.

I hope most people who come across this acrticle realize that it's a troll, and the author intentionally painted Linux in a poor light.

First, if you had really scanned all the CD's, you would not have gotten the copy problem with Open Office UNLESS the problem was not with the source, but with the destination. In other words, your hardrive was having issues. Switching to the console would have given you a very technical, but easily interpreted error.

Second, you chose 250MB of SWAP. YOU chose it, not the installer. Which implies you went to a custom disk partitioning scheme rather than allowing the installer to do it for you. This implies two things: 1) You know more than you are letting on, and 2) You were handicapping Linux from the start with a paltry amount of SWAP.

Third, while no software is flawless, 20 minutes into the software update you should have known there was a problem and restarted it. Also, the RH update software does time out if nothing is happening, so maybe it was working, but you don't know how much bandwidth you really have (the RH network has mechanisms built in to preserve bandwidth, not the least of which is keeping those out with only demo accounts.).

Sigh, if you're going to troll, atleast make a good go if it.

"The one problem I had was the fact that it would have been helpful to have some idea as to what size to make the partitions. (No I didn't RTFM either)"

Am I ever with you on that one. This should be prominent information and yet hardly any of the distros list it in their requirements even. Good info to have when you don't have a 100 GB disk. And does anyone have the *time* to read the flipping manual? Really. I sleep enough.

Actually, I'm mostly impressed with linux. I said I was an experienced Windows user, and that's true. But I'm not an experienced Linux user. I know how to setup partitions, and I knew that linux required a swap partition. That's about it.

It's completely possible I had a hardware error regarding the Open Office thing. My gripe was more with the error messages presented then the fact I received an error.

And that was the first time I'd ever run the RH update. I had no idea how long it was supposed to take. I'd never updated anything on linux before, or even installed an application. I had no clue.

I may try another linux distribution later, but only after I'm done playing around with RH 9.0. My favorite part thus far - the nifty screensavers.

Very good for a Windoze user. Now why not give Ecommstation by Serenity Systems a weekend test drive. You may not want to go back to your Windoze desktop.
Regards,
JTC

250 MB of ANYTHING is considered PALTRY? Geez. I really do know less than I thought...

Hardly the average MS Windows Convert. For example, he has the following experience (although not much) in:

OS X
Linux (since Kernel 2.0)
etc.

Chris is right. Apt-get for Redhat is GREAT. The main thing that it does it have packages that Redhat doesn't provide. You can upgrade the base media player to do mp3 playback (something RH doesn't do by default) and provides a TON of other software...

A good source for implementation of apt-get and more:

http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=1890&page=5

And does anyone have the *time* to read the flipping manual? >>>>>>>>>>>>
I'd honestly hate to see what kind of shape your car is in...

sorry to write that. but this article is very bad written. it has absolute no real content and value. what is the point of this article?


somehow i have the feeling, no matter how easy linux is getting, ppl always complain.

give them something wich is just copying a image to their hard disc (something like lindows) and they complain about the apps wich are not installed.

give them something so easy like suse, mandrake, redhat.... and they find some stupid stuff to complain about. (if you realy want to break something, then you can break it. no matter if windows, linux, os x, bsd, bla bla bla... every os can be fooled)

or give them something where they have full controll (gentoo, sorcerer, sourcemage, lunar, rock, etc) and they start complain about long compile time, cryptic things there and there...

or give them something wich boots up from a livecd and does not need a installation (knoppix, demo linux, etc) and they will find another reason to complain.



i can give you all just 2 advices:

advice 1)
you are serious about using one linux distro:
install the thing and use it. and if you find errors or something you don't like, then post/write/whatever a message/mail/whatever to the developer and tell him/her what you want changed. or change it yourself and submit the changes you made to them.

advice 2)
if you don't want to invest time in your os (wich is absolutly okay):
a computer is not a toy. if you see your computer as a tool wich enables you to do some things faster and better, compared to a manual task. then get something wich is easy as 1-2-3. get mac os x or windows and be happy with it.



why the hell is everyone trying to be a specialist in the it area? it is amazing me.
if i go to a big shop mall and go there to by a magazine, you see 10'000 magazines about computers and 10'000 magazines about finantial stuff. and those 2 areas are exactly the areas where everyone thinks he is the best of the best and understands everything.
after work, siting in a train back to home, you will NEVER ever hear some brokers, insurance workers, etc talk about a very difficult heart operation or about how to produce cheep enery or how to make a new drug or etc.
but you hear all the time stuff about computers. and all of them are experts! so i must be a idiot! i spend serval years in education about it technology and that kind of things! i am stupid! why did i wasted my time! gee... give me a break!


if you are a user you are a user! point!
if you want to be able to install and switch from one os to the other and know the deepest of the deepest inside a computer: sit down and invest time. and start to become a system admin, developer or something like this. but don't expect as a user to be able to do everything with a computer!

as a car driver you are not changing your motor engine and you are not changing the color of your car and all that kind of things! you go to a specialist to do that!
why do you expect a computer (wich is in some way much more complex then a car) to be any diffrend?


cheers

SteveB

Allow me to expound upon my "background"....

I've been a computer tech for 5 years, Windows and Mac. I can write code in about 6 or 7 different languages and can do graphic design/website creation. But I know Windows and Mac.

I'm a "USER" when it comes to Linux. I never said I was a computer idiot or a computer genius. What I *did* say is that some simple things could be avoided in RH 9.0 to make the novice Linux (former Windows) user more comfortable with the installation process.

I don't expect anything. What this article is about is the pitfalls experienced when a Windows user installed Linux and how the Windows user is going to deal with them.

I know more than most about Windows. I never said I was a novice Windows/pc user. I said I was experienced. That doesn't mean I can't evaluate an OS I'm installing, and see what makes it more difficult for the average linux newbie (which I consider myself).

The point of the article? There are some things RH 9.0 still needs to do before a Windows user is going to feel relatively comfortable switching.

I'm a 20 year UNIX SysAdmin that has installed a number Linux systems over the years. Each year the state of the art gets better and it's /almost/ ready for the proverbial "Granny" user.

I mostly agree with the original poster's comments. My experience was slightly different.

The platform : Compaq Presario 4504 48MB, 2GB diskdrive, DEC NIC.
The distro : from ISO, CD's burned and validated.

The short story : it took 4 attempts to get a working installation. The first 2 failed due to lack of space, even though I allowed the Anaconda installer to autopartition the disk (/boot, /swap, /). The 3rd attempt had enough space but Anaconda crashed 7/8's of the way through package installation, leaving the system unusable.
The 4th attempt I installed a "Minimal" system, basically a firewall, dns server, printing and mail.

The installer correctly detected and configured the graphics card and monitor for X on the first attempts- this is a first for /any/ Linux installation I've done on this system.

The NIC wasn't autodetected but, after an hour of searching through the RH9 docs, I finally found all the bits that allowed my to configure the modules.conf and network-scripts properly. This is the first time I've ever gotten this particular system on the network under Linux.

My thoughts on the process are, in no particular order :

Points for getting the X autoconfiguration right.
Points for getting the NIC driver working.
I like the idea of "packaging" the installation by target use.

The installer should know the package sizes and be able to /quickly/ determine disk space requirements. Partitioning should done after package selection. The authors might gain useful insights by installing the latest versions of Solaris, HP/UX or Tru64 UNIX.

Error handling needs to be improved in Anaconda.

The documentation is almost silent on configuring hardware that isn't autodetected at boot/install time. System management and configuration documentation is heavily slanted towards the GUI tools. This leaves the user/admin completely vulnerable in diagnosing and resolving system problems that preclude the use of the GUI or on server systems with no graphics head.

"I'd honestly hate to see what kind of shape your car is in..."

You're not alone. In hating to see the shape my car is in, that is. My neighbours are plotting to destroy it.

Computers work fine though.

I bought a Red Hat Network subscription naively, so I could download the Red Hat 9 ISOs when they were first released, before they were put on FTP servers. I downloaded and burned the ISOs on CDs without a problem. When I began installing Red Hat 9, as soon as the installer kicked into X, I would get no video signal. This is due to a X 4.3.0 and nVidia drivers bug. So I was told to try installing it in text mode. So I did... except as soon as it was finished partitioning my hard drive, Anaconda crashed and told me I had to reboot my computer.

After that, I said "Screw this, and screw Red Hat." I re-formated my hard drive, re-installed Windows 2000, and canceled my Red Hat Network subscription. Too bad I was out $60.

I've been using Linux (Debian, Slackware, Mandrake, Red Hat) for 3 years now, and Windows for the 10 years before that. The truth of the matter is that the "average" computer user still can't even install Windows, much less Linux. They use whatever came on their computer (Windows) and if something goes wrong, they go for the System Restore function, or the System Restore CD.

So, given the way things really are, it appears that Windows isn't exactly really for prime time, either. The truth of the matter is that most computer users are too lazy to learn about any OS.

There's something I don't get about the RedHat Network troubles.

Which RedHat Network offerings did he apply to? Basic, Enterprise, Demo ? I wouldn't be surprised the free offering (demo) only provides a restricted shared bandwidth that would make downloads very slow.

More generally speaking, there's a big problem with the conclusion of the review. As I read it, he only got 2 major troubles; the OpenOffice install bug and the RH network speed. That's two RedHat specific bugs, so the conclusion should not claim that "Linux" is not ready for desktop world, but rather that "RedHat Linux 9" is still perfectible.

...is that rpm needs to be modified to enable incremental updates. I am sure there is a lot of redundancy in downloading entire packages for upgrading.

And also that Redhat needs to arrange their updates in RHN so that a user can choose between system packages and other packages. Stuff like KDE should not be made available for normal updates. Its too big for that. As a rule, 20MB of updates should be pushing it already. 250MB should be unhear of. I am supposed to have a fast connection but am in Africa here, and that makes things particularly slow. Add the fact that it downloads one package at a time, things become unbearably slow.

Main point is, make rpm good for incremental updates, or make a new format that handles incremental updates which is also rpm compatible. 99% of the stuff we download we already have.

I remember Bill Gates saying that the "real usable" pc isn't here for the coming 15 years. And with "real usable", he probably means a totally self healing pc, with no weird error messages.

I haven't tried redhat lately, since I'm currently hooked on Gentoo. I have a political love for choice, and gentoo represents choice imo. If the windows users would known what choice was, we shouldn't have to tell them about linux. But the words: PC and Windows currently walk hand in hand, unfortunatly .

Nautilus

"After that, I said "Screw this, and screw Red Hat." I re-formated my hard drive, re- installed Windows 2000, and canceled my Red Hat Network subscription. Too bad I was out $60."

The hat has chosen, Jack. You are Slytherin. :-)

Interesting review - right on the mark. It's refreshing to see someone look at a linux desktop product as a "fresh" windows convert would.

Basically, (this may be oversimplified) a user want to

a) surf the web
b) set up their email
c) set up their dial-up account - if on cable...dhcp is pretty straightforward so they shouldn't notice any issues.
d) INSTANT MESSAGE - whether they use Kopete, gAIM, or Kit the user wants to instant message - they especially want to CAM conference as well. Just like they do in yahoo messenger and msn messenger - they will be disappointed when they find out that in most cases they'll not be able to cam with their yahoo, kopete and kit open-source counterparts. THIS IS A KILLER. You're welcome to try to convince them to using Gnomemeeting..lol..right. I've used it and liked it. But good luck trying to get someone to convince their msn buddies to convert to it...anyways....
e) Finally, IMHO, users want to be able to not get a migraine when installing software. I'm a debian user all the way and I've turned a lot of folks onto the apt-get way of doing things. I love it. Should people be able to unpack a tarball, probably, should we expect they ever learn it ? (ABSOLUTELY NOT), and they shouldn't have to.

By a fantastically huge margin, Knoppix has been the most user-friendly distro I've seen that a windows convert would take to. It's great. These live-eval cd's coming from the major distros are also the right direction. This is truly the best way to expose linux to the masses. You may not care personally whether the masses use linux or not. I personally do.

good day-

Dave Clark

Linux will always be hard to use for people who don't know how to use it. I would never expect my mother, who still asks me how to double space in word, to be able to use Linux.

I have even had trouble getting into linux. I had upgraded my video card to an ati 7500 back when RedHat was 7.2, and I didn't know how to get KDE or Gnome to come up. Due to the fact that Xfree86 wasn't up-to-date with the video drivers, I wouldn't. But I waited, and when RedHat came out with 7.3, it had the drivers for my card for installation. With it booting right to gnome, I did not look back. Sure, I dual boot, because I still like to game and windows is best for that. That is the only thing I think Windows is good for, games.

With the long download, must have been a new release of one of the packages that you were downloading, RedHat gets congested at times, especially new releases, along with a big download of 30 some packages. But what I like about Linux, Kernel updates. And Linux gets them every week to every month. And the Updater might have stayed in your window asking for a reboot, might have done a Kernel update.

I have had install errors, and most times a reboot and retry works, something I don't know how to explain but I have also had that problem loading X.2 on my mac. Yellow Dog on my mac too since I like Linux so much.

Why don't you try Mandrake, I think their install is easier, and you get some different things that RedHat doesn't have. You don't need just one Linux "flavor" to ruin your day, try another if you don't like the first.

Oh yeah, Bluecurve, or the RedHat's GNOME is the default install for Redhat, not KDE.

To finish, Linux is not ready for the normal user who will install it, but is getting close for the normal user to use, just not my mother (56 year old english teacher).

Did this install myself 4 weeks ago

I used a genuine RedHat disk set bought at a local PCWorld ( British computer superstore chain ) and had no issues with file copying during the install - in fact it was markedly easier than any Windows install, and I've installed every version of Windows since 3.0 in both the NT-based and the DOS-based series.

Perhaps this is just evolution, and the next version of Windows will install as sweetly....... I hope so.

Crashy applications ( redhat network was PARTICULARLY bad at this ) and misconfigured stuff ( sound only worked from some apps, I have 2 mice ( rollerball and radio mouse ) and attempting to use both at once crashed X every single time.

Trying to add the 2nd, undetected, mouse, also crashed the system with monotonous regularity.

Still got some way to go, Linux. I'm back on Win2K

.....RH9 is still the best experience I've had with Linux. I DID manage a week without Windows without excess pain. I used several earlier distros ( SuSE 7.x, Mandrake 8.0, 8.1 ) and none came close to the quality of the stuff that did work in RH9

I've tried to install various Linux distros and FreeBSD and all of them crash during the initial kernel boot. I think it could be my chipset. I have a Super Socket 7 with Aladdin 5 (1543) chipset. I poked around the 'Net and there are a few postings regarding this issue, but I cannot seem to get these distros to even boot.

However, all versions of Windows from 95 to XP work perfectly.

Does anyone out there have any experience with this issue?

My motherboard is a BCM VP1543 socket 7 with an AMD K6-2 350 w/128 MB of RAM. ATI Rage Pro AGP video and a Vortex 1 sound card.

Thanks
Walt

"Perhaps I'm giving Linux a somewhat unfair review..."
Thats a accurate statement because you where reviewing Red Hat, not Linux.
I'd be interested to see how you faired with a distribution geared more specifically for desktop users, like Mandrake. While its not perfect (I don't believe any Linux distro is, yet) I've never had any of the troubles you mentioned in this article and on more then one occasion I've been a little taken by surprize by just how good some of it works.
New users shouldn't install Red Hat any more then they should have installed Windows NT.

Everytime anyone mentions installing applications in linux there is undoubtedly a comment along the lines of, "Use apt-get. Its super", usually followed by, "and install the synaptic front end". I've used apt in debian and I currently use the apt4rpm port to SuSE. It's good, but I would hardly say spectacular. I would say the results I have seen with it are slightly below those of using rpmfind or rpmseek. It solves dependency problems about 95% of the time. On monday I performed an apt-get upgrade which put in some non-standard truetype fonts that caused
a) kde to look terrible
b) an error message to popup when I opened a terminal.
I use terminal a lot. I saw many error messages before fixing this by reinstalling the default KDE rpms that came with my distro. My comments here might be biased by having an "upgrade" make my computer's performance noticeably poorer. I will say that my usual process for installing applications is to do an apt-cache search for it, and install if the results look good. If that doesn't work I usually fall back to source.

Whatever the situation, there should never be a situation where you cannot abort out of something. That's just nasty design.

I don't know, I think this was a fair enough review. I always tell people that if they want to run Linux, there's a chance that the install will go perfectly but probably they're going to have to invest some time, and be ready to troubleshoot. Between Mandrake, Debian, and Gentoo, and FreeBSD, no installation has ever gone perfectly, beginning-to-end. There's no substitute for familiarity and experience; knowing where things are in the OS and so forth. I think sometimes experienced Linux users forget that.

The difference is, I was interested enough to stick with it. Not everyone is going to be. The proper response to experiences like the one descibed by the author is either, fix it so Windows users aren't turned off, or just make clear you're not interested in courting Windows users. The idea that you're going to get people interested in reading pages and pages of documentation is kind of absurd.

I read docs. People who say this read docs. That's fine, we're into computers. Not everyone's that into computers. I still find that almost all of my Windows 2000 installations have been more hassle free than any Linux distro I've tried; people say that they've had just as difficult experiences with Windows, and maybe so, but I never have - I've worked tech support on phones doing Windows support, internal helpdesk, and the local geek who everyone calls for help. In most cases where I've had to reinstall, it's been a brainless experience with Windows. If I need the drivers, I know they're going to be out on the web. Can't say the same for Linux.

I just think the hassle is worth it,. for me, for Linux. I think the difficulty of Linux is overstated - it looks way more complicated than it is when you've never used it, but I certainly find it's generally more difficult than Windows. Even in the cases where installers are designed similarly (like Mandrake), they seem less reliable. Could just be my experience.

I wish someone would have thier parents, (brother, sister, grandmother, anyone with *no* Linux experience, etc...) install a Linux variant and take notes on the progress without offering assistance. I don't consider this a valid Windows "convert" article, since the author had previous experience with Linux and OSX and didn't mention that he isn't using Windows anymore, which doesn't make him a "convert". I feel that even though the author's experience is minimal, he *did* have previous experience with Linux and therefore probably had a bias towards or away from using Linux.

Hell, if I can talk my mom into installing redhat on her machine, I'll write the article.

Well, I don't think your brother, sister or grandmother can install Windows, can they?

I always see the same problem: Linux not ready for the desktop!
-Well, in fact it is, but not having allot of commercial apps and giving the UNIX legacy makes it harder for the average Windows user to understand diferent concepts. I like Linux, and in fact I can get my work done with it, even far better than with Windows. It has its issues, and the another major problem is the different Linux distros who make each and apply diferent patches or make modifications to programs, and the end result is incopatibility. But in the end all this will be fixed. I use Mandrake 9.1 right now (gone away for a while from Slackware). Wish you all best luck, and don't be discouraged by Linux, because it is great for work, office, and programming, especialy that everyone gets great dev tools for free, and they help learn.

"apt-rpm is beginning to gain a lot of popularity among people who use RPM based distros."

Well, mainly just Red Hat. I haven't seen a SuSE version, and there's no need for it on Mandrake.

hehe, nice try, but that's my point.

"I always see the same problem: Linux not ready for the desktop! -Well, in fact it is, but not having allot of commercial apps and giving the UNIX legacy makes it harder for the average Windows user to understand different concepts."


You almost had me there.
I also think that Linux is ready for the desktop, but I am tired of their argument that there are not enough apps. That really is so true as it was some years ago. There might be a few Windows programs out there that you can't find an alternative for, but that list has been growing very short. It is true that some of those alternatives create work files that are not compatible with windows software and then it is hard to share your files with a windows users and *that* might be your reason, but it only creates a vicious cycle. Maybe your Widows counterpart is waiting to try Linux after you do so that your files will be compatible with them?

If someone wants M$ Windoze like Linux distribution, the best way is to get one copy of XP, if u want a real Linux distribution, simply goto www.debian.org and get the latest Debian. Debian is the only one Linux distribution that cover security, easy to use and maintain package managment system, and have pre-built optimized packages for over 10 differnt archs like x86, ia-64, Alpha, Sparc etc.

RPM will be nver usefull as DPKG, and never ever can make RH, MDK or whatever RH based distro, simple, stable, secure and easy to use, for any level users or admins.

To RH fans, the better way to see the difference between DPK and RPM is to try Debian, Libranet, Xandros or Lindows

John,

I'm glad to read you're still tinkering with RH9, and haven't given up to reinstall windows like in the past. I found that RH9 is really close to 'Mom-Ready', in my books, and provides most of the other qualities for which I'm looking right now before I switch over to linux. I think that I may be the last to actually run linux on the desktop, which is ironic because I'm the guy who works on linux all day and I only use windows as a stable ssh/moz/mp3 platform. Silly me.

We found that most of the installer issues, especially those that gripe about mounting and unmounting, are really low-memory issues. I'm serious. UnitedLinux, which is really SuSE's linux-like product with a name change, requires a boatload of RAM, for instance. I chant the "Linux works on older hardware" mantra myself, but it seems I can't get this 20Mb laptop moved from win98 to any more recent OS - and Linux SHOULD be the obvious choice here. RH9 has a nifty profile for really small installs, and I'm hoping that may help, but I think the non-intuitive errors occuring in low RAM situations, as well as the recent demand for lots of RAM for the shiny GUI installers (AND their text equivalents, for no reason), is a serious problem for me .. and it may have affected you in your install.

Two new policies in RH.com really concern me. Since my day-to-day (well-paid) work shows that the market for the super-stable RH62 is very much alive, I'm concerned about RH.com's newest plan to support only a year worth of any of their distro versions that actually get any updates. One seems to now need to choose between Rarely Updated and having to upgrade the entire distro every year. This is NOT acceptable for any markets in which RH is being used extensively, and forces me, a lazy user who manages a series of Soho samba/http/firewall/imap/ldap/smtp boxes, to consier moving all my boxes to another distro that offers both a longer support window and updates as frequently as pre-9 RH offers.

Secondly, the idea that RH will offer nothing but dot-zero releases suggests that they really are not concerned with letting any of their distros 'cook' to the tasty pefection as was allowed with RH52, RH62 and RH73. RH.com's dot-zero releases are avoided for a reason, and it's the same reason that RH's terminal minor-releases are so popular: because the terminal minor releases been tested in the field and FIXED to the point where they can be relied upon. We NEED RH 8.2 or RH 9.2 as a well-cooked platform on which we can actually install something mission-critical.

Don't you dare ask one of my SoHo clients to pay a kilobuck for the Advanced offering. They'll toss another distro back in my face, one that still uses minor-releases, or ask me about regular kilobuck Unix instead. (Who does Unix on Intel with any kind of clue? Thanks RH, you may push my SoHos to SCO. Did Ransom Love put you up to this cruel no-minor-releases joke?) The problem is, SoHos are where it's at right now.

While you may think I'm bashing RH, don't assume that. I've looked at all the major Linux distros out there - including one that's so over-complicated with krud that it's now incompatible and I refer to it as 'Linux-Like' - and can only conclude that RH is still the king, still, this year. I'd list the differences, but nationalistic linux-like distros seems to have the most rabid supporters in their own blissfully ignorant countrymen. The short of it is, RH is about the least-worst there is, despite the problems I claim and forecast. Once PLD gets moving, or CL start making a distro of their own again <sniff>, or MDK stop arbitrarily renaming packages and making life difficult for package porters, it may be anyone's game again. I hope RH fixes the policy mistakes I've seen other companies make, but only so I don't have to reinstall my main development machines.

Stay with it. I'm sure it gets easier once the eerie similarities to windows are dismissed and one learns what is really a different way of thinking and working. Next, please try the new Ximian stuff on top of RH9, and tell me if it is as gorgeous as I want it to be in the hands of a windows user. Who knows? I may yet take the plunge myself, one day, install my one MS machine as Linux, and finally homogenize my office.

403

You failed to mention, that when you inserted the RedHat CD, it asked you to do a verification check on your CDs, which I'm sure you just blindly ignored and skipped. Then when one of your CDs had problems reading open office, you ignorantly blamed Redhat instead of your bad CDs. I am an experienced user, and I know from experience that you should always check your CDs before installing. Here is something you can think about. Back when I upgraded to Redhat 8.0, I myself skipped the CD check, and one of my CDs was bad 1/2 way through the install process. Fortunately, I was able to reboot back into my 1/2 redhat 7.3 - 1/2 redhat 8.0 system and reburn my bad CD. Try rebooting Windows after the install fails 1/2 through the install when upgrading to XP from 2k, your system would be hosed!

yes, X matrix is cool

recently installed RH 8.0 from the SAMS teach yerself manual onto a 2nd user totally blank compaq deskpro (pII 233 mhz with 280 odd Mb RAM).... hehe - i had a lot of fun trying to get it to load up from either a boot floppy or the cd (getting kernel panic errors all over the shop- man - that made ME panic!) untill i tripped to compaq's pages and made a set of diagnostic floppies. Once i'd figured out i needed to diable translation on the HDD's, Bob was my uncle,and it installed fine, apart from my monitor wasn't listed and generic just made my screen go funny (opted for a more specific 600x400 res svga monitor in the end) - i chose the auto settings during partition setup, coz i have no idea whatsoever

now it's all working lovely apart from a few gripes.
why do i have such a cluttered start menu thing when i click the red hat??
fair enough i loaded some kde apps, gnome apps aswell and use the gnome desktop (bluecurved of course) but when i have some audio players in my sound n vid menu (xmms for example), and then ANOTHER aound and vid menu hidden away in extra's or something, which has more players (like noatun)... well, it begs the question, why aren't all the similar apps under the same menu? ok, linux heads out there will tell me that i can reconfigure it all, but to a windows user it's all a little confusing and frustrating looking for an app in an obvious place for it not to be there.

anyway, it's not crashed on me yet, xmatrix is a superb screensaver and gnuchess on xboard is stonking!

all in all miles better than win 95 - i wonder what RH 9.0 is like

ninja_boy

Why not put out a request for experience out on usenet? There's quite a few people out there who's "switch" stories haven't been told (both corporate and individual). Makes for interesting reading.

Yet Another Installation Review

drab....

These light 'almost there' reviews are getting tedious.

I think the author makes one good point, that the Redhat installer should have a skip this package button if a package fails to load. The author should go to bugzilla.redhat.com and make this suggestion to the redhat bugs page, becuase that is the PROPER way to get things fixed (not writing paltry reviews for osnews).

SteveB I agree with you 100%. Unfortunately it seems that people who sit down on a computer for 5 mins to install a new operating system consider themselfs experts. Even worse they write reviews about it. I personaly thing the review or whatever this thing called, is bad, useless and there is no point reading it. Now the author claims that he is a tech for 5 years and he writes code on 7 languages, which proves the point that he is just a "jack of all trades and master of none." Author tech skills proven. I rest my case.

...By the way, now that I have my trusty Linux box up and running, I am looking forward to putting it to the REAL test… Using it!! There are more then enough articles about installing Linux that give some opinion as to how easy or hard it was, but you don't install your OS every day, (or maybe some people do) Lets get past the install and prove that this is a platform that can be put to work.

I already have several tasks that Ill be putting my new install to use for. For the TRUE windows converts, here are a few of them to give you some idea as to what Red Hat 9 (and any other Linux distro) should be able to do:

As an active member of the Lions Club, I need to be able to do the following kinds of stuff (and what I plan to use to do it with), If anyone else has suggestions on other software to use, please feel free to drop me a line.

Lions Club Tasks:
Website/IT development: Our site is PHP (specifically we use PHPWebsite) so simple ssh and vi will to the trick. But Ill also need to use Gimp to deal with graphics, and there are plenty of options for web browsing to test our site, and e-mail other club members.

Publicity: Once again Ill need to call on Gimp to help me out with the graphics, but then Ill need to call on OpenOffice Write and Present, to create flyers, newsletters, press releases, letters, presentations, and who knows what else! (This is a good place to offer any suggestions for a Linux replacement for MS Publisher)

Project Management: We have some very ambitions project this year and we will need to make sure that no one drops the ball, MrProject looks like it will be well suited for keeping us organized and on schedule.

And work too!
Ill also need to be able to complete job duties if I wish to stay employed. As an Oracle DBA, Ill need VPN client, Oracle client, telnet, ssh, some cool Oracle tools and access to e-mail. Yep, that is all available for Linux.

Does Lunux have the applications and stability to keep up with a user from day to day? Is all of these apps going to serve my needs? I guess Ill find out from this partial task list I have made from myself. That is what needs to be reviewed (many times over).

I've been doing desktop support for a long time now, and from my experience, I would have to say that most people shouldn't configure an OS much less install one. I enjoyed tweaking Windows, and when I felt I had learned as much as I could, I decided to try Linux. My first experience was with Red Hat 7.2, after much research on Linux. I had a good idea what I was getting myself into before the first cd slid into the drive.
By trial and error, here I am almost 2 years later, now running Mandrake 9.1, and fairly confident in my skills. I can do everything that I could and couldn't do in Windows. But it came at a price...that price was a lot of cursing and pulling my hair out. You will get nowhere if you are unwilling to read the documentation, and reinstall, reinstall, reinstall, until you get it right.
People shouldn't install Linux as a way to get back at Microsoft, that's not why it exists. It exists for the people who want to get their hands dirty, and learn about how an OS works. You can't do that in Windows.
As far as Linux on the desktop. It is ready. All of the applications are there to be productive. In fact it excels as a home OS (with the exception of off the shelf software, of course.) But, just like Windows it should be installed by someone with experience, and configured for the user.
Supporting Linux desktops is no harder than Windows and with the programs that are on the horizon, it's going to be even easier.
Enjoy your experiences. I am.
B

Yezz what kind of person would miz represent hiz credentials to get an article published in osnews ?

A stinking goat homper thats who!

Just kidding, at least its better than getting involved
in office intrigue all day long.


,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,wiretripper

I gave my dad a linux system (redhat 8), he had no linux experience.
I set it up as dual boot with his old familiar Windows, so he always had something to fall back on. I thaught him the basic stuff (took screenshots of certain applications, and wrote some comments on it). I transfered all his favorites to galeon, put a link in his home folder to his Windows documents, cleaned out the menus a little bit, transfered his e-mail contacts to Evolution, made his mp3 music available and put them in xmms,...

If someone is looking for a good idea for an opensource project: make an application that makes switching easier. (email contacts, bookmarks, documents, music, preferences,..)

He had no problem e-mailing with Evolution, surfing with Galeon, listening to music with Xmms. He was able to burn data cd's and music cd's. He recoreded music from the stereo, to later on burn it on cd. (it was one big long track tough, but still).

He liked the look, and he liked the feel. He liked the main menu better than the windows-start menu. The windows start menu groups the applications by company, and adds another level of indirection with the Programs menu. I noticed he didn't stuff his linux desktop with icons for all the applications, but used the menu instead, or the quicklaunch buttons on the gnome panel.

There were, and still are some problems:
OpenOffice

It uses non-standard controls. There is a toolbar on the left, which can popup menus to reveal more controls. Openoffice is pretty much the only application that does that under Gnome and under the Windows environment he worked on. It was unintuitive and didn't know where to find specific controls.

Generally, Openoffice has a very bloated GUI (in menubar, preferences, controls,..), where MSWord is alot more cleaner.

The icons are not really great, and openoffice lacks integration with the desktop. (e-mail links that don't work as expected)
I'm looking forward to see what Ximian did to openoffice.

X11's copy/paste
My dad does the following on Windows: Search on Google for an image of a bird, mushroom, flower, whatever. He then right-clicks on the image, selects "Copy image". He switches to MS Word, and then does "Edit - Paste". This doesn't work on linux. X11 only support copying text apparently.

Font handling
My dad doesn't have great eyesight, so I wanted to set the fonts a little bit bigger. It was easy to do with a preference application in a Redhat menu. It only worked for GTK2 programs though. I had to write some .gtkrc file to modify the fonts of GTK1 programs. Evolution used another way to set the fonts of the message-pane. Openoffice also has other settings. XMMS was also too small. It has some sort of zoom option, but it looks ugly as hell.

The Gimp
It has some of the same GUI problems as OpenOffice. Non standard controls (right click to get the full menu), and was generally confusing (organisation of the menus). But then my dad doesn't have much experience with photo-editors in general like Photoshop.

Printing
A better and consistent printing panel for Gnome2, Gnome1 and Openoffice would be nice. Set quality of printing, reverse printing, ..

A lack of applications
A good alternative to Corel Draw is missing (he likes to mess arround in it), and a graphical application to create Websites. Openoffice can export to html files, but it lacks website management features. A good kazaa alternative would be nice too. Something better than gthumb to manage and edit scanned photos would be nice too, altough I was able to add some scripts to the nautilus script menu that used imagemagick to rotate and mirror any image. All those applications should be nicely integrated offcourse.

A lack of documentation
There is a serious lack of books that is geared toward normal desktop usage and it's applications. My dad has books on Windows, Office, Corel Draw,.. I just took some screenshots and put comments on them, but that isn't enough. I guess it is pretty hard to write documentation if you have a suse desktop, mandrake desktop, redhat desktop, lycoris, lindows,.. To top it off, it should be translated in the native language of the user :-)

Let's all pat the American on the back. He made a real effort and tried to learn something.

We can ignore the gripes and complaints. This is the normal sound track for the American learning process.

At least we don't need to wonder why all the tech jobs are being offshored from the US. There are people in other countries that actually like learning new things.

Whild old American companies used to embrace a "THINK" culture, the modern American company and culture is all about "STEAL".

So when an American tries to install something new, let us all give him or her a big Hurrah! They need the encouragement as their society and culture is anti-learning.

The reason with the locked up updates on Redhat are
a RPM 4.1/4.2 bug. Rpm dose not delete the _lock files after you
have used it.
Run this command in root before doing an update or installing
a big rpm e.g KDE, GNOME, WINE, KERNEL ect.

rm -f /var/lib/rpm/__db*

info on this command is at http://www.rpm.org/hintskinks/repairdb/

Only run this if you know what you are doing <-:

Does anyone else find that CTRL-ESC & CTRL-ALT-ESC sometimes simply don't work in Linux? I often find that I have to open a virtual console and use the CLI tools to kill apps. Especially when full screen apps such as games crash, or when something has made X unresponsive.

Also I find that alt+tab equivalents in KDE and GNOME don't work consistently. Full screen games and media players often don't allow me to switch to another app with the keyboard shortcuts. While in Windows I don't think alt+tab or the task manager have ever failed, even when apps are totally unresponsive.

These are fairly minor nitpicks compared with the main reasons why I don't use Linux. But they're part of the reason why I find even the latest Linux GUIs feel much less professional and elegant than Windows.

I said, "a lot Of...." SuSi and Mandrake are not the only RPM based Distros. I also said, "It isn't perfect, but its a huge step forward toward simplifying life."

I might ad: "It isn't perfect, but its a huge step forward toward simplifying life."

I personally am just coming off the HBD* thing, and have switched to doing Debian with a minamal install, then upgrading the kernel to a more modern one, and then only installing the packages I actually use.

* = HUGELY over BLOATED DISTROS with everything you don't need and then some. (e.g. Red Hat, SuSi, Mandrake)

A minimum install can also be accomplished by simply doing a Morphix-Lite hdinstall, which gives you Debian with a modern kernel and X with IceWM. All for just under two-hundred meg.

At the command line type: apt-get install KDE

That gives you the latest KDE. It all went down without a hitch for me.

PS: I said apt was "not perfect." I have never tried a distribution upgrade with out a hitch, and why would you allow anything to take over and install anything you "didn't know was going to be installed. I suggest simply using apt to HELP you install only what you KNOW you want installed or upgraded. Also, always look at the packages it proposes to install and un-install. atp can bite you if your're not careful. USE COMMON SENSE read the man pages.

good luck, Chris

Yezz we prefer to blow things up

I gave my dad a linux system (redhat 8), he had no linux experience.


To follow up on that, I set it all up for him. I didn't let him do the setup and configuration. He wouldn't be able to. He is not able to install and setup windows either. I didn't let him do system administration (installing programs, printers, ..) on linux. He doesn't do system adminstration on windows. I just don't believe he should be bothered with those sort of details. I setup and explain some stuff, he uses.

If you wonder about the current situation: He now uses windows 2000. He previously used Windows 98. His windows 98 setup got really unstable, and was infested by spyware and popups. That's why I first put Linux on his system, (but also for the experimental value of it offcourse). He liked the stability and the lack of popups on Linux. I liked it, because I much prefer administrating a linux box over a windows box. But my dad still had to use Windows 98 because of the disadvantages I discussed, which means crashes and confusing popups (even when not browsing)
So I eventually put a Windows 2000 system with Adaware, Antivirus, a popup blocker on it. It works great, but maybe one day I will again set up a dual boot, when Ximian Desktop 3 comes out :-)

Isn't it amazing, what one little article can do? hehe.
I'll submit the "no skip" to the list.
------------------------------------

what does everyone think about this:
Install 4 or 5 different distros using the latest everything on the same hardware (not at once). Then compare each and decide which seems to be the most "Switch Friendly" (not "user friendly" or "linux friendly", but "Windows->Linux Friendly").

Sound off.


ps. Jack of All Trades, show me 1 person who is master of all, especially in the tech world.

John, I don't understand your approach to this. I was quite like you in knowing Windows and Mac before Linux. You really do have to read the installation instructions...distros have different installers, etc. I can't imagine not taking the time to do that when I'm unsure. And now I've installed so many versions of Linux that I've lost count. But, I still read at least the installation instructions.

This is also true in the sense that you, as a newbie, were doing things you were not sure of (swap space, not letting Red Hat partition as a newbie would most likely do, etc.). This, unfortunately, pretty much negates your point, that Linux is more complicated to install. If you had just gone along with anaconda, let it partition, clicked on the choices it gave you, that is what a newbie should do. Red Hat 9 iss no harder to install than OSX or XP. It's just that you're in a different situation than you usually are - you're in foreign territory, so to speak.

As for the errors you got, that is hard to say, except downloaded iso's are more likely to have those kinds of problems than if you buy it from Red Hat or at a store.

I'm a regualr Windows-user and have just installed RedHat9. It is great, but the dependecies drives me mad. ./configure script cannot even detect X....

Check out this site: http://freshrpms.net/

Walt:

"I've tried to install various Linux distros and FreeBSD and all of them crash during the initial kernel boot. I think it could be my chipset. I have a Super Socket 7 with Aladdin 5 (1543) chipset. I poked around the 'Net and there are a few postings regarding this issue, but I cannot seem to get these distros to even boot."

It's the Ali 5 chipset, depending on version it has some serious screwups with everything from DMA to AGP. I have one myself on an older comp, complete with an opl3sa2 soundcard (Now there's a combination made in hell :>). Haven't tried installing a new Linux distro on that comp for a while because LFS is working fine, but it took a little effort to fix up the first time I did it. Ever wonder why the kernel has specific patches for that chipset? Well now you do :>.

Not much help I know, but sometimes it's nice not to be the only one who has had the problems.

Yes, I always think that is the hardest part: Partitioning the harddisk. Several point has to be taken into account like:
size, a swap, / only or / and /home, (I'm talking about a desktop installation)
Well, this "was" the hardest part, as mostly all distributions include the automatic partitioning. Why not choosing that option? because you may loose the windows partition (mandrake automatically resize the windows partition and installs in the rest).
To sum up, again, is partitioning the hardest part? no, it's hard if installing with windows.
Now, upside-down. You've got linux, and you want to install windows because you got a new job and need to use a tool not available in linux, let's say...and antivirus (okay okay there are antivirus for linux but they are for checking windows networks).
You put in the XP cd, and fill in with the information required, number, name, and so on. Then you choose the programs (packages?), users, etc And after that there is an interminable amount of time to copy the stuff of the cd to the harddisk. Wait, wait, wait, where is the partition step? there is no partition step. windows and only windows may live in you pc, for your joy and productivity. Okay, let's finnish with this. No, there is no end because the installation is trying to find all the pnp devices. And after a reboot the installation haven't finished yet, is still looking for devices, you may think the computer is locked. And after the next reboot, good one, there are still devices not recognised that need the manufacturers cd.
I don't know what is harder, if converting to linux or converting to windows. I wonder what will happen with next generations of children that will learn with Linux and later on may need to use Windows for proffesional purposes.
enjoy

You hold that much hatred towards us? Man, you need to get a life. I'm proud to be an american. I don't lie, cheat, or steal, and I consider myself a normal american (normal for an american geek that is).

---
We can ignore the gripes and complaints. This is the normal sound track for the American learning pr
---

I don't know what the fuck you're talking about there, because us americans also like to learn new things. We're all people, but me and you have 1 big difference: I don't blindly hate people because of propaganda.

>ps. Jack of All Trades, show me 1 person who is master of all, especially in the tech world.

That is my point. You just pick one or two skills and master them. You can not master 7 computer languages and you can not master 5 different OSs.

http://www.boycottmicrosoft.net/jamd/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1738&...

...all those features AND it's i686 and fits on just 1 CD!

A review of WHAT?
So the guy couldn't even download an ISO correctly.
He used RedHat for a total of what, 5 minutes, until he realised that it wasn't Windows, got pissed, and wrote a review (in Wordpad I assume).
WTF sort of a review is that. Surely anyone considering installing Linux realises that it is not Windows and will behave differently and may even look different.
Jesus...
Then he put in the obligatory "Linux will not succeed until I can figure out WTF is going on, possibly by first pulling my head out of my arse and looking around"

Perhaps I'm giving Linux a somewhat unfair review by not purchasing documentation and RTFM before I do the install, but the problems I experienced were something quite possibly not covered in the manual.

Pretty much sums things up right there!

First of all:
Sorry John, my intention was not to attack you personaly.

I'm a "USER" when it comes to Linux. I never said I was a computer idiot or a computer genius.
i hope you did not think, that i said that about you!

That doesn't mean I can't evaluate an OS I'm installing, and see what makes it more difficult for the average linux newbie (which I consider myself).
you did not evaluate a OS! you just installed red hat 9.0 and you are pointing out some troubles with the installation. or maybe we don't have the same meaning for the word "evaluation"? i expect a evaluation to be more then just the installer and some day's of testing this or that.

The point of the article? There are some things RH 9.0 still needs to do before a Windows user is going to feel relatively comfortable switching.
i can tell you one thing: no user will feel relatively comfortable switching to any os. no matter if you change just only the version (for example from winnt to winxp) or if you do a complete platform switch.
i have switched serval users from windows to linux. and my advantage is, that i am their boss! whatever i say it is their law (somehow). and when i switched them, i promissed them, that everything they did bevore they can still do. and that i will organize and provide them the support for all their problems or questions. and i can tell you, that none of them are missing windows. but they don't love linux as well. they don't care about the os. for them the computer is the computer and as long they can type their letters/invoices/offers/etc, do bookkeeping, surf the web, print, etc.... they are happy.

and yes! rh 9.0 needs alot of things to be done for a windows user. but i don't see why red hat has to be like windows. it is diffrend and the way it is is absolutly okay. and since linux is getting better and better and easyer and easyer and since no one said, that linux is so easy to install like windows, i don't understand the point of your article.


cheers

SteveB

I've been using redhat for years, my RH9 install went just fine. My brother tried to install RH9 on his laptop but it would not work. Finally he found that he had to type "linux nofirewire" at the install prompt to get it to install. Until he did this it would not go past the first install screen. He still cannot get online with it, but that's because he has a winmodem.
It seems to me that RedHat, and linux in general, still has a ways to go for the average user. I think RedHat could gain quite a bit by doing some focus group testing with regular users (Moms, Dad's, kids...), ask the people to install and use redhat on various assortments of hardware and see what happens. It would be a real learning experience and an opportunity for improvement. If you really want to find problems with your system let some young kids have a go at it.

SteveB I agree with you 100%. Unfortunately it seems that people who sit down on a computer for 5 mins to install a new operating system consider themselfs experts.
that's it! and the reason why they thing they are experts, is because the advertisement tells that to them. you can see in any of the magazines articles on how to write office-automatisation in word/excel/etc in less then 15 minutes and with the help of vba.

or you see articles (in the german press you see that alot): all the hidden tricks and tips of the cracker/hacker/warez people. buy and read or magazine and become a ultra-super-geek. and learn how to get keygens/cracks/illigal videos/mp3/etc off the web/irc/ftp/p2p/etc.

or you see things like: this magazine included the full and licence free version of red hat 9.0. buy our