Linked by Thom Holwerda on Sun 13th Jan 2008 16:30 UTC, submitted by anonymous
GNU, GPL, Open Source "Operating systems come with cultures as much as codebases. I was forcibly reminded of this fact over the holidays when several family members and neighbors press-ganged me into troubleshooting their Windows computers. Although none of us had any formal computer training, and I know almost nothing about Windows, I was able to solve problems that baffled the others - not because of any technical brilliance, but because the free software culture in which I spend my days made me better able to cope."
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Insulting
by sappyvcv (2.36) on Sun 13th Jan 2008 17:03 UTC
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and companies' obsession with so-called intellectual property and vendor lock-in encourages them to force users into the role of unquestioning consumers.

As a geek who generally does not use open-source software (what I use at work excluded), I find this highly insulting. What he talks about is not necessarily a product of open-source communities, but rather computer enthusiasts in general always wanting to learn more and understand what they are using. Open source simply takes it a step further into the source code rather than just the product.

But the example which HE uses to start the article is a poor one, since any geek probably could have solved the issues.

RE: Insulting
by rexstuff (6) on Sun 13th Jan 2008 18:51 UTC in reply to "Insulting"
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I disagree, I think his observation is fairly astute, and certainly not meant to be insulting. Proprietary software tends to have a 'You will use the computer the way WE want you to' mentality (much like the fascist IT department I have to deal with at work - gack). It is altogether too easy (and in many cases, tempting) to say 'ok' to this and cope as best you can. Why question what is really going on when tech support is only a phone call away? Free software, on the other hand, has much more of a 'do whatever you want' idea.

And frankly, it would be in software companies' best interests if users did not have preferences, if we did all use the computer the same way; to not have to worry about feature requests and user habits, to only have to design one theme and worry about a single use case.

And obviously (as you are the case in point) there are plenty of users of proprietary software who do not fall into this mental trap. You want to know, you want to learn, you want to be able to use the computer the way you want to, and find that proprietary software allows you to do this to your satisfaction.

I do agree, though, that the connection between an open-source software mentality and his inital example is rather tenuous, but I think he was just trying to illustrate how proprietary software can lead people into an attitude of helplessness. I mean, the monitor cable? Seriously, at least -try-.

RE[2]: Insulting
by jakesdad (2.72) on Sun 13th Jan 2008 19:13 UTC in reply to "RE: Insulting"
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2005-12-28
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"much like the fascist IT department I have to deal with at work".
By your reasoning you wouldn't mind the fascist IT dept. coming over your house and using your sink as a toilet.

You forget that you are using THEIR computer and THEIR network. You are obliged to follow their rules... Which are generally there to reduce the companies exposure to liability and support issues. No matter if its open source or whatever.

RE[3]: Insulting
by jaylaa (4.92) on Mon 14th Jan 2008 00:08 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Insulting"
jaylaa Member since:
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"much like the fascist IT department I have to deal with at work".
By your reasoning you wouldn't mind the fascist IT dept. coming over your house and using your sink as a toilet.

You forget that you are using THEIR computer and THEIR network. You are obliged to follow their rules... Which are generally there to reduce the companies exposure to liability and support issues. No matter if its open source or whatever.

You make it sound as if the IT department owns the company and is the sole reason for ones employment. As if they are some benevolent entity who are doing us the favour of letting us use their infrastructure.

The IT department is there to perform a service and they don't own the computers or network anymore than the janitors own the toilets. I'll let them tell me what software to run when I let the janitors tell me not to shave or brush my teeth in the washrooms.

RE[4]: Insulting
by wirespot (3.28) on Mon 14th Jan 2008 01:14 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Insulting"
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As if they are some benevolent entity who are doing us the favour of letting us use their infrastructure.


If I may cite Simon Travaglia as the original BOFH: users cause a decrease in performance on network and servers, so the best working networks and servers are the ones without any users around them. ;)

But seriously now; your analogy with the restrooms is not correct. It comes down to what is considered appropriate use of company resources, be they restrooms or computers. Generally, when it comes to computers, it has been proven that you get better results if you restrict the users from altering the environment on their work computer in significant ways.

Installing software carries a very high potential of damage to that environment. So any administrator worth his salt will forbid that and many other things. He is there to keep the workstations, servers and network in working condition at all times and it simply cannot be done if every user could alter what is supposed to be a homogenous system in unpredictable ways.

Some of the best working networks I've seen were those where the admins kept tight control over the users' workstations. Such as giving them access only to a home directory on a partition mounted with limiting flags such as noexec. No admin rights and definitely no way to alter the machine's environment significantly.

RE[4]: Insulting
by Tuishimi (2.64) on Mon 14th Jan 2008 04:21 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Insulting"
Tuishimi Member since:
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The company owns the computers and network and the IT department enforces any rules the company sees fit to implement. This means if the company has a policy of employees NOT installing unapproved software or modifying the base configuration in any way, it is IT's role to make sure you don't do that.

RE[2]: Insulting
by sappyvcv (2.36) on Sun 13th Jan 2008 19:33 UTC in reply to "RE: Insulting"
sappyvcv Member since:
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So how does a "do whatever you want" attitude help someone better understand a propietary product or unfamiliar product? It doesn't.

His example illustrated that it's important to understand CONCEPTS, not a particular culture.

You completely missed the point... well, until I read this:

And obviously (as you are the case in point) there are plenty of users of proprietary software who do not fall into this mental trap. You want to know, you want to learn, you want to be able to use the computer the way you want to, and find that proprietary software allows you to do this to your satisfaction.

So if I didn't fall into the trap, what's stopping anyone else? Nothing really, except an attitude and a willingness. Which is why I found his choice of words insulting. I was never "forced" into anything, nor anyone else I know. Most people simply don't care about the details of using their computer, they just want to do what they need and be done with it. They'll take the path of least resistance.

Edited 2008-01-13 19:35 UTC

RE[3]: Insulting
by aesiamun (2.6) on Mon 14th Jan 2008 06:16 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Insulting"
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It's just typical elitism that is often found in certain groups.

......
by islander (3.6) on Sun 13th Jan 2008 19:48 UTC
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This article is stupid as hell.

Sure, it has its merits but it make it seem that the technical merits of open source software are a hindrance to the development of computing in general.

Somebody show this dude the Firefox brochure please.

What is missing here is that the bane of open source users are not meant to be products of beligerence but are purely reactionary to the limitations of the closed source alternative.Hence,the open source paradigm should not be seen as an end product out to destroy standards and but an evolving developmental model to assist where the closed version falls short.

Edited 2008-01-13 19:49 UTC

RE: ......
by KenJackson (3.48) on Mon 14th Jan 2008 21:44 UTC in reply to "......"
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What is missing here is that the bane of open source users are not meant to be products of belligerence but are purely reactionary to the limitations of the closed source alternative.

I detected more belligerence in your comment than in the article. The author is covertly praising how excellent free software is by describing the desires and habits of those that use it.

If I wrote that article, I wouldn't have be able to hide the irritation and exasperation I often sense when I try to explain something to a Windows user. (What's a text editor?) The author did better than I would have.

You are certainly right that we react to the limitations of closed source software. But I don't think that's a good summary of our motives.

Hmm
by JMcCarthy (9.24) on Sun 13th Jan 2008 19:57 UTC
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Why go through the trouble of changing "Free Software" to "Open Source" in the title?

RE: Hmm
by irbis (2.88) on Sun 13th Jan 2008 20:35 UTC in reply to "Hmm"
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Also the author refers to the "four freedoms" definined by FSF instead of the similar open source definitions that OSI has.

Personally I'm not interested in nitpicking about this (especially as both parties of the open source and free software debate seem to agree that the two definitions, "free software" and "open source" mean practically the same in the end, only the communities and philosophies around the two definitions may be a bit different). But because some people do seem to care about such things a lot, maybe the original author too(?), it could have been polite to keep the original author's definition in the title.

RE[2]: Hmm
by elsewhere (4.92) on Mon 14th Jan 2008 06:11 UTC in reply to "RE: Hmm"
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Personally I'm not interested in nitpicking about this (especially as both parties of the open source and free software debate seem to agree that the two definitions, "free software" and "open source" mean practically the same in the end, only the communities and philosophies around the two definitions may be a bit different). But because some people do seem to care about such things a lot, maybe the original author too(?), it could have been polite to keep the original author's definition in the title.


I'm one of those people that cares about such things. I don't think that the two mean practically the same thing in the end. I like the element of freedom that OSS offers, but I often find that the agenda of the "free software" community is as restrictive to my personal freedom as the proprietary organizations are. I don't want a religious battle. I don't want a philosophical battle. I just want the ability to use the software that best meets my needs, open or proprietary, without hindrance from anyone. I resent any organization making that choice for me, which is more or less what drove me to pursuing OSS. That I generally prefer to use OSS software is more indicative of the quality of OSS software in general, than an element of "sticking it to the man".

The free software community is but a single sub-community within the OSS community at large, in as much as linux users are but a single segment of the compuiting base at large. It would be ridiculous to assume that the viewpoint of the linux community is representative of computing platforms in general, and I get frustrated when I see the viewpoints of the free software community espoused as being representative of the OSS community in general.

But that's just me.

In short
by dwave (2.64) on Sun 13th Jan 2008 20:08 UTC
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1. Free software users expect open licenses and no activation methods
2. Free software users expect regular upgrades and patches
3. Free software users expect to work the way they choose
4. Free software users want control of their own systems
5. Free software users explore
6. Free software users expect to help themselves
7. Free software users don't fear the command line
8. Free software users learn software categories, not programs
9. Free software users expect access to developers and other employees

v RE: In short
by antik (0.64) on Sun 13th Jan 2008 20:15 UTC in reply to "In short"
Stopped reading
by sbergman27 (4.92) on Sun 13th Jan 2008 20:08 UTC
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I didn't get past the part where it says we're all defined by Eric Raymond and Richard Stallman.

Is there an ascii emoticon for regurgitation?

RE: Stopped reading
by aesiamun (2.6) on Mon 14th Jan 2008 06:18 UTC in reply to "Stopped reading"
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>:-O~~~-~-

heh

Missed opportunity
by moleskine (4.28) on Sun 13th Jan 2008 22:36 UTC
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Eureka. Man plugs in video monitor, then writes dissertation on why he's a genius. Only joking, halfway anyway. The chap was able to fix the problems because he knows a lot about computers and the owners of the problem computers either don't or don't want to. Happens every day. In a way, no further explanation needed.

So the more interesting question is whether the ways of open source software improve your problem-solving skills. Granted immersing yourself in FOSS will make you more knowledgeable about computers, but will it help you with all sorts of other things? Improve clarity of thought, rigour of approach, analysis, lateral thinking? If the writer had addressed a few of those, this could have been a very interesting article. As it is, I felt that he settled for a series of comfy assertions. They're all familiar ones to FOSS people, but being assertions they're not really of much value on their own and could and should be challenged to see whether they stand up and work in practice.

If they don't stand up, after all, one would have to ask oneself whether FOSS was worth it and provided any real benefits over competing approaches.

RE: Missed opportunity
by Almafeta (3.36) on Mon 14th Jan 2008 04:27 UTC in reply to "Missed opportunity"
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Eureka. Man plugs in video monitor, then writes dissertation on why he's a genius.


He made sure to compare himself to a limited group of people who don't have the desire or the time to spend just "poking around" and learing about computers. And made sure that the label he gave them ("closed source") suited his purposes.

Rather good but not perfect article
by phox (2.88) on Sun 13th Jan 2008 23:05 UTC
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I think the article is rather good at defining the characteristics that old-school software houses needs to at least consider, before trying to sell anything on an open platform.

It is of course a very generalized description of the differences between the two majorities; the majority of open OS users and the majority of closed OS users. Thus there's of course many on one platform with the behavior of the majority of the opposite.

With that said, the old-schools doesn't necessarily have to change their products to comply with all these characteristics, it's simply a reminder saying that a user-forum with periodical staff visits and that continuous focus on quality and functionality are both very good ideas. And that any effort selling support to private users on open platforms would be waste of advertising funds.

I think the article can save a company or two from failing big time and save them from spending money in the wrong ways.

RE: Rather good but not perfect article
by jabbotts (2.56) on Mon 14th Jan 2008 01:14 UTC in reply to "Rather good but not perfect article"
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"
it's simply a reminder saying that a user-forum with periodical staff visits and that continuous focus on quality and functionality are both very good ideas.
"

hm.. when was the last time the leading Old School software company focused on quality and functionality? ;)

(I know, I know.. I couldn't resist.)

What a waste of atoms
by kaiwai (1.8) on Sun 13th Jan 2008 23:58 UTC
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I stopped reading after this:

Proprietary vendors like Adobe and Xara who have experimented with GNU/Linux versions of the software usually conclude that free software users will not buy commercial software.


How on earth can Adobe make that conclusion when they have NO PRODUCTS for Linux? the last time I had a look, there were legions of end users on Linux waiting with baited breath over the opportunity to purchase Framemaker for Linux. Months before the promised released Adobe turned around and canceled the project.

It has NOTHING to do with 'not paying for software' it has to do with the fact that as end users we're not going to turn around and purchase a piece of proprietary software that is marginally better than the opensource version.

Visualise this; is Photoshop really thousands of dollars better than GIMP? sure, I'm willing to accept that Photoshop is superior to GIMP (thats no debate), heck, I love it, and use at home (academic licence as am a student). The question isn't whether one is better, but whether one is so significantly superior to justify such a large price.

Maybe if Adobe sold Photoshop say for NZ$150-NZ$200 for a copy, you would sell a lot, but asking for thousands of dollars for the same piece of software - please, Adobe needs to learn a little thing called 'value for money'. Unless their product is delivers thousands of dollars more in value than GIMP, no one will purchase it.

Even if you take the price out the equation; you still have the remaining issue - all of Adobes non-Windows version are absolutely crap. They truly are. From their crash happy flash plugin to their bloated reader - its a litany of bad programming right throughout the product range - written by, quite frankly, intellectual pygmies who value 'teh written code fast' than ensuring that when they do write their applications it is portable and it actually performs as well on those alternative platform as the original host platform.

v RE: What a waste of atoms
by tomcat (2.16) on Mon 14th Jan 2008 02:41 UTC in reply to "What a waste of atoms"
RE[2]: What a waste of atoms
by Soulbender (3.52) on Mon 14th Jan 2008 02:57 UTC in reply to "RE: What a waste of atoms"
Soulbender Member since:
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but probably few of them actually want to PAY for them -- or, at least, PAY what Adobe wants to charge.


Because we all know Windows users LOVE to pay for their software. That must be why software piracy is rampant in Windows and allegedly destroying the profits of closed source vendors. Right.

v RE[3]: What a waste of atoms
by tomcat (2.16) on Mon 14th Jan 2008 09:27 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: What a waste of atoms"
RE[4]: What a waste of atoms
by Soulbender (3.52) on Mon 14th Jan 2008 12:15 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: What a waste of atoms"
Soulbender Member since:
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It's not a question of LOVING to pay for software. People who use Windows and OS X, typically, are accustomed to purchasing software; whereas, in the Linux community, there's a general sense of DISDAIN about paying for software.


You're confusing a vocal minority for the many. If Windows and OSX users are so accustomed to pay for software why do we have a piracy problem? Or did you mean they expect to pay but dont give a shit and pirate their stuff anyway?
I'm certain the share of users who'd pay for good software is approximately the same in both camps.
Of course, there are much fewer Linux users so perhaps the small minority of Windows users that do pay make up for it in numbers.

Software piracy is rampant in Windows because, for many people, they either can't/won't afford it, and Linux isn't an alternative.


So? The bottom line is they dont pay, it doesn't matter why.

Edited 2008-01-14 12:16 UTC

RE[2]: What a waste of atoms
by Marcellus (2.72) on Mon 14th Jan 2008 13:59 UTC in reply to "RE: What a waste of atoms"
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They want to USE Adobe's products but since they don't want to actually pay, they go "The grapes are sour anyway!" like the fox.

In the end that just means that there will not be enough people interested for Adobe to spend the money porting.

RE[3]: What a waste of atoms
by TechGeek (4.32) on Mon 14th Jan 2008 14:27 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: What a waste of atoms"
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Actually I think you are wrong. There are a lot of companies and schools that would much rather be using the Linux or a Unix platform and be able to teach Adobe on it than you think. I know at my university that we would have a lot more linux on the desktop if it were not for a few professional level programs.

RE: What a waste of atoms
by Almafeta (3.36) on Mon 14th Jan 2008 04:29 UTC in reply to "What a waste of atoms"
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is Photoshop really thousands of dollars better than GIMP?


Several million purchasers every year seem to think so...

RE[2]: What a waste of atoms
by aesiamun (2.6) on Mon 14th Jan 2008 06:20 UTC in reply to "RE: What a waste of atoms"
aesiamun Member since:
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Photoshop is not thousands of dollars...

http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-23102480-Photoshop-CS3/dp/B000NDIBYG/re...

$629.00

RE[3]: What a waste of atoms
by kaiwai (1.8) on Mon 14th Jan 2008 07:56 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: What a waste of atoms"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06
Fans: 19

1) I am from New Zealand - it says it quite clearly in my profile that I am, so therefore, one assumes that I must be referring to NZ dollars.

3) According to Ascent.co.nz

http://www.ascent.co.nz/productspecification.aspx?ItemID=353213

The price is: $1,090.24 including GST - not exactly 'thousands' but still a good thousand - be it in NZ peso's.

RE[4]: What a waste of atoms
by Johann Chua (2.72) on Tue 15th Jan 2008 00:01 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: What a waste of atoms"
Johann Chua Member since:
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Not everyone looks at user profiles, and since this is an international site, you'll have to specify which dollars you're talking about, otherwise people will assume you're referring to greenbacks.

RE[2]: What a waste of atoms
by kaiwai (1.8) on Mon 14th Jan 2008 07:57 UTC in reply to "RE: What a waste of atoms"
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It is also known to be the most widely pirated piece of software on the market. Millions of users don't equate to millions of purchasers.

RE: What a waste of atoms
by dagw (3.6) on Mon 14th Jan 2008 13:48 UTC in reply to "What a waste of atoms"
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all of Adobes non-Windows version are absolutely crap.


I'm sure there are a few OS X user who might disagree.

RE: What a waste of atoms
by laserlars (2) on Mon 14th Jan 2008 16:28 UTC in reply to "What a waste of atoms"
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You have to be aware of that companies can pay for Adobe products. But for Adobe to support their products on Linux would be very expensive as it has to support numerous of different distributions. Everything has to change allt he time in linux. New libraries, new Fontrenderers, new Soundsystems etc. While on let say XP where you have a architecture with a specific lifetime and static envirionment you don't have to worry about these things. And this goes for most bigger software. You don't want to deploy a big software system on something that you can't expect to behave the same way in one year. I don't want my hammer to change the way it works. I wan't my hammer to work just like it did last year.

If you haven't read about why the flash plugin haven't worked that well in linux (before) is because some of you linux users have. ESD / ART / GSTREAM(?) / OSD / ALSA / "the new one ive lost memory of" as their soundoutput with differnt mixing interfaces etc. While in XP you can just talk to the DirectSound interface.

Linux in general is just ha hobby thingie because developers can't really agree to an architecture. I belive far more in Haiku (www.haiku-os.org) as it actually has a architecture.

RE[2]: What a waste of atoms
by Soulbender (3.52) on Mon 14th Jan 2008 19:01 UTC in reply to "RE: What a waste of atoms"
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But for Adobe to support their products on Linux would be very expensive as it has to support numerous of different distributions.


No they don't, they just have to support the most common ones. And it's not like they're fundamentally different or anything. The differences are minor

And this goes for most bigger software. You don't want to deploy a big software system on something that you can't expect to behave the same way in one year.


That must be why Oracle support Linux. Oracle isn't big software or anything.

Linux in general is just ha hobby thingie because developers can't really agree to an architecture.


Tell that to Google and ILM. I'm sure they'll be thrilled knowing that their search clusters and render farms are just "hobbie thingies".

Edited 2008-01-14 19:02 UTC

RE[3]: What a waste of atoms
by laserlars (2) on Mon 14th Jan 2008 19:44 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: What a waste of atoms"
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But for Adobe to support their products on Linux would be very expensive as it has to support numerous of different distributions.

No they don't, they just have to support the most common ones. And it's not like they're fundamentally different or anything. The differences are minor


They are different. Where do we put menu information for instance? Just put it in a bunch of directories and we might hit the right one that is used. The binary compatability isn't that great either. Libraries gets recompiled. Okay, you can deliver your product as a big badass static ;)

And this goes for most bigger software. You don't want to deploy a big software system on something that you can't expect to behave the same way in one year.

That must be why Oracle support Linux. Oracle isn't big software or anything.


For their sake it could be worth it as it is a server product. Aren't you more or less restricted to Red Hat? I remeber when I installed VMware on a linux box, you had to fiddle around to make the system mimic a Red Hat installation or something. It was quite a time ago.


Linux in general is just ha hobby thingie because developers can't really agree to an architecture.

Tell that to Google and ILM. I'm sure they'll be thrilled knowing that their search clusters and render farms are just "hobbie thingies".


Thats a very different situation, they controll their own software and plattform. And then again, a "server" situation.

v RE[2]: What a waste of atoms
by tomcat (2.16) on Mon 14th Jan 2008 21:48 UTC in reply to "RE: What a waste of atoms"
RE[3]: What a waste of atoms
by kaiwai (1.8) on Tue 15th Jan 2008 03:26 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: What a waste of atoms"
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Fans: 19

Pardon? ALSA exists in EVERY platform, Qt/GTK is part of the LSB standard - any LSB distribution has that. There are standards, LSB; if you base your application on the common elements that exist on all Linux distributions, you won't have a problem. When you fail to maintain and communicate with the community, nothing but pain and expense will follow you.

How is it our fault that Adobe is so arrogant to fail and sit down with the community and help correct the issues; the default desktop for the vast majority of desktops is GNOME - so why not target GNOME/GTK then?

Its nothing more than a pathetic excuse used by companies for not supporting the platform rather than it actually being a genuine issue with the platform.

v RE[4]: What a waste of atoms
by tomcat (2.16) on Tue 15th Jan 2008 22:55 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: What a waste of atoms"
geeks vs 9-5'ers
by TechGeek (4.32) on Mon 14th Jan 2008 03:07 UTC
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Working at a university I see a lot of trends that people talk about. Its easy to spot these when you have seen thousands of students cycle through your program. The attitude that Open Source users are more capable looks like its true on the surface. But its just an illusion. The real problem is that there are two types of IT people, as I like to label them, the geeks and the 9to5'ers.

We have students who just went in to IT because they thought it would be a good career. These are the 9to5'ers. They do the minimum learning to skate by. And nothing is easier to look good at running than Windows. Thats not to say it IS that easy to do well, but with a little knowledge its pretty easy to look like you know what your doing. These people don't touch linux or unix because it requires a lot more effort to learn it to any degree of proficiency.

Then we have the true geeks. They would be doing this no matter how much it paid. They are the type of people that just think about technology all the time. These people put in whatever effort is necessary to learn whatever they want. Some of these people end up in Open Source. Some stay in Windows. Either way they are experts at what they do and know a scary amount of stuff.

I know many 9to5'ers who pretend to be Windows admins. I dont know any 9to5'ers who pretend to be Linux admins.

RE: geeks vs 9-5'ers
by Tuishimi (2.64) on Mon 14th Jan 2008 04:29 UTC in reply to "geeks vs 9-5'ers"
Tuishimi Member since:
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Nahh. TRUE geeks used the command line only on early versions of VAX/VMS, non-geeks used ALL-IN-1. ;)

RE[2]: geeks vs 9-5'ers
by hibridmatthias (1.6) on Mon 14th Jan 2008 21:02 UTC in reply to "RE: geeks vs 9-5'ers"
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No, true geeks crack open the case and move bits with their pocket magnets and tiny flashlights
:-)

Edited 2008-01-14 21:13 UTC

RE[3]: geeks vs 9-5'ers
by Tuishimi (2.64) on Tue 15th Jan 2008 00:05 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: geeks vs 9-5'ers"
Tuishimi Member since:
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Fans: 4

:D

RE: geeks vs 9-5'ers
by desNotes (2.94) on Mon 14th Jan 2008 21:23 UTC in reply to "geeks vs 9-5'ers"
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2006-05-26
Fans: 0

As someone who is over 50 and did not officially become a paid geek until my late 30's I can say that I have observed the "geeks vs. 9-5 'ers" in all professions. There are those people who come in and do their job blindly and there are others who actually take an interest in what they and the company is doing. I realize that working at McDonalds, et al may not be exciting but I guess I have been lucky. My first job with computers was inspecting 40 lb disk drives that held 20 MB and 1/2 inch tape drives for backup.

I haven't always enjoyed my jobs but I always found something there that was at least mildly fascinating. Of course once I became a software developer and a full fledged geek, I am at nirvana.

Wrong conclusions
by DigitalAxis (2.8) on Mon 14th Jan 2008 05:24 UTC
DigitalAxis
Member since:
2005-08-28
Fans: 1

The nine things he cites about Free Software users are effects, not causes, of the difference.

Sure, Free Software users aren't afraid of the command line, and are used to thinking of completing tasks versus using programs... but that's got more to do with the current nature of Open Source software (many solutions, usually different from the Closed Source most of us grew up with...)

Open Source users are the ones who sought out something different, and it's THAT kind of behaviour that makes them different. It's got little to do with the software itself. That helplessness fostered by some programs he thinks he sees probably has to do more with the kinds of programs those non-geek users seek out.

v Good and true article!
by obsidian (2.36) on Mon 14th Jan 2008 06:09 UTC
I liked the article...
by karl (3.24) on Mon 14th Jan 2008 14:09 UTC
karl
Member since:
2005-07-06
Fans: 2

For the most part I agree with what the author of the article wrote. Although there are certainly ample exceptions to what he describes, the exceptions prove the rule. The differences between Free Software users and your typical Windows users are primarily ones of expectations and what constitutes the comfort zone of percieved competency.

Free Software users tend to be quite flexible and pragmatic when it comes to expectations-they are not as quickly disappointed and simply resign when confronted with something that does not work as expected. Additionally Free Software users tend to develop a sense of competency about most of the routinely performed task, as stated in the article Free Software users think in terms of categories and not in terms of product names-this means that when something does not work as expected one simple resorts to using another tool to get the job done as opposed to being confronted with a situation where something is simply undoable because a particular product does not allow for it.

Being able to choose a particular tool, and awareness of the limitations of particular tools, their relatives strengths and weakness, and how these tools are just means to the ends of the task at hand leads users to a degree of competency.

To touch on one moment which underlies much of what the author was saying: Microsoft and the propietary culture of Microsoft applications have done a serious disservice to computer users over the last 10 years. When I talk with average Windows users they tend to be more functionally crippled, more ignorant about how anything works(or conversely why somethings dont work), and largely incapable of understanding that a particular product is but an instance of a category of software and as such replaceable with other software of the same kind.

This situation is not new, but it has deteriorated greatly over the last 10 years-I attribute this primarily to 2 trends -1) a tremendous surge in the number of casual computer users, whereas 10 years prior relatively few used computers at all. 2) a progressive crippling of the UI of Windows software through multiple versions of development.

Q: What is the number 1 problem which Windows users have ?
A: Where is the file I just created, downloaded, copied, saved ?

Most Windows users have 0 grasp of the directory structure which underlies almost everything they are doing. Most Windows users no longer even know of the existence of a file manager (aka Windows Explorers). Of course Microsoft has also encouraged this: Firstly by naming the file manager Windows Explorer the possibility of confusion with Internet Explorer reaches the highest of possible hights, then the ungodly long and counter intuitive directory naming scheme and gobs and gobs of subdirectories which make travering the directory tree difficult and unrewarding, then by hiding, by default, much of what is actually present in the directories, forcing you to go to options to click on things to be able to see what is there, and even then still not having direct access to all of the files due to layer upon layer of obscure pseudo security mechanisms.

Then of course why does one need a file manager- you already have links to My Computer,My Documents, My Share Documents etc. on your desktop-that each of these in turn are nothing but "views" of particular directories, directories in a tree, is completely lost on most Windows users. I have great empathy for my fellow Windows users/lost souls, they are hopelessly overwhelmed by an utter lack of transparency, by their inability to form some kind of mental picture of how things are organized on their computers, never really knowing where anything gets saved and wasting untold hours using the "search" function for the PDF file they just downloaded from the internet.

Oh how ironic it is that people used to criticize the lack of UI consistency in Free Software desktops-but just look at the current Windows Desktops arround-and I am only speaking of XP not Vista!. Each major proprietary software product is using its own widgets, has its own UI, hell even Microsoft has a half a dozen various widget sets- this is mayhem and chaos for the mere mortals forced to used this system everyday. It has been YEARS since I was confronted with a similar level of UI inconsistency using GNOME.

The vast majority of Windows users do not even have a clue as to what an Operating System means. For the overwhelming majority of Windows users the INTERNET is "Internet Explorer". Although Microsoft Office is a proprietary additional purchase, most people who use it consider it to be WINDOWS, much like the equation between INTERNET and IE.

It is positively discouraging how ignorant(unknowing) the majority of Windows users are-but my point is not to point out the obvious, but to point to how this ignorance has been manufactured, breed, designed and sought by Microsoft.

One could of course argue that users should not need to know these things and that it is a sign of UI failure when users must know these things- but this line of thinking of computers as appliances, stands at total odds to what Windows portends to be. The UI of an appliance should never lead to confusion -appliance UI means radically delimiting the ways something can be achieved to things which are immediately discoverable, so optimally there should be one way to perform a specific task, and appliances are task specific-ie. they are only good for X number of things.

Whereas Windows wants to be best in every aspect of computing(media, gaming, office productivity etc.)
With Windows you always have 10-15 different ways of doing things and most users will have mastered 2-3 ways, yet which 2-3 ways are chose,leads to a fragmenting of collective usage experience. The abuse of metaphors in the Windows desktop leads to a crippling in the ability of most to grasp the abstract relations at hand, leaving users out in the cold, lost, quickly overwhelmed and continuously frustrated by their own apparent failures.

The utter lack of transparency on the UI level of Windows makes users scared to experiment and try things-one wrong click somewhere and all of a sudden something changes and one has virtually know ability reconstruct the changes that were just made. Most Windows users do not know what a WINDOW is! What the difference between a window and the desktop is, or what that right mouse button is supposed to do! They click things once which require a double click, they double click things which require a single click-why? total UI confusion. Oops pressed something and the app went full screen- which key (maybe mouse!) should I use to exit fullscreen, try a dozen keys nothing happens immediately so just press the power button!. What percentage of Windows users even know about Drag and Drop which arguably works much better under Windows than under other Free Software ?

I write all of this because I have spent THOUSANDS of hours helping people with their problems with Windows. Each and every time I try to help someone I end up in teaching a class in BASIC COMPUTER SKILLS 101 which should have been learnt through sheer osmosis if the UI was not such a utter nightmare of inconsistency, anti-transparency, black-magic mumbo jumbo.

These same people who I help with windows problems occassionaly visit me- when they do and they want to use a computer I let them use my laptop running Ubuntu strangely enough they never seem to have any questions....

There is lots and lots of software for Windows which I wish I could use under Linux, somethings under Windows are amazingly trouble free and simple, but I refuse to use a system which only can succeed in the market by dumbing down its users into total ignorance and which treats its users as the dumbest thing since sliced bread.

Shame on your Microsoft.

RE: I liked the article...
by Moochman (2.84) on Mon 14th Jan 2008 15:34 UTC in reply to "I liked the article..."
Moochman Member since:
2005-07-06
Fans: 1

Most Windows users have 0 grasp of the directory structure which underlies almost everything they are doing. Most Windows users no longer even know of the existence of a file manager (aka Windows Explorers). Of course Microsoft has also encouraged this: Firstly by naming the file manager Windows Explorer the possibility of confusion with Internet Explorer reaches the highest of possible hights, then the ungodly long and counter intuitive directory naming scheme and gobs and gobs of subdirectories which make travering the directory tree difficult and unrewarding

Ah, so I guess if Windows just used names like "usr" "opt", "bin" and the like, everyone would get the hang of it?

RE[2]: I liked the article...
by UZ64 (3.6) on Tue 15th Jan 2008 01:16 UTC in reply to "RE: I liked the article..."
UZ64 Member since:
2006-12-05
Fans: 0

Well, /etc/hosts is a HELL of a lot better than:
C:\WINDOWS\system32\drivers\etc\hosts

I honesty can't make any sense out of why or how Microsoft came up with that location for the HOSTS file, other than to make it harder for people to get to.

And /tmp is easier to find than:
C:\Documents and Settings\User Name\Local Settings\Temp

Which leads me to wonder... if damn near everything else in the file system is written in full, then why the hell abbreviate "Temporary Files?"

Not to mention user data is located in one location in Linux--/home/user--instead of scattered all over a cryptic (and dangerous) registry, in various files scattered in dozens of folders under "Program Files," in a user's "Documents and Settings" folder, etc.

Really, both Linux and Windows have their quirks, and after dealing with Windows' setup for so long, Linux's filesystem is a breath of fresh air. The one directory in the UNIX structure I can't stand is /var; it's got a bunch of vaguely-named directories inside, often leading to more directories, and some files... but even it at least seems somewhat organized compared to C:\WINDOWS and C:\WINDOWS\system32, which are both crammed full of files of all types (thousands of files, in case of system32). DLLs, screensavers, critical system files, settings... hell... even Solitaire, Minesweeper and the calculator (huh?!).

Not sure *why* those are in there instead of in some folder named "Basic Windows Applications" or something under Program Files, but whatever...

RE[3]: I liked the article...
by Moochman (2.84) on Wed 16th Jan 2008 00:00 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: I liked the article..."
Moochman Member since:
2005-07-06
Fans: 1

Yes, you're right that a lot of Windows folders make no sense. But the most important ones--the ones that average users generally need access to--do make sense. Documents, Photos, Music, Videos, Program Files. It doesn't get much easier to understand than that.

Also, a lot of people rag on the registry, and for good reason. It's a complete mess that just gets slower and more bloated with time. BUT: that doesn't mean that text files are the be-all end-all answer. For the average user, a simple GUI interface (maybe with an extra "Advanced" tab or pop-up dialog box) is almost always the way to go. Especially considering that it's accessible directly from the application in question, and doesn't require any additional documentation to use.

Edit: Now that I read it over, I realize that my response didn't directly address all of the things you were talking about (it was also partially a response to the article)... oh well.

Edited 2008-01-16 00:02 UTC

RE: I liked the article...
by KenJackson (3.48) on Mon 14th Jan 2008 22:22 UTC in reply to "I liked the article..."
KenJackson Member since:
2005-07-18
Fans: 5

I didn't like how long your comment is ... until I read it. Well said!

You're frustration speaks. I know you don't mean to impugn the users you help--you are just frustrated at the lack of understanding of fundamental things which is perpetuated by the design of Windows. Many of us are too.

What a load of baloney...
by Moochman (2.84) on Mon 14th Jan 2008 15:32 UTC
Moochman
Member since:
2005-07-06
Fans: 1

By this guy's logic, everyone would be exploring their computer to the full extent, IF ONLY they were using a free OS.

That's like saying that everyone would be their own mechanic, IF ONLY they drove a hot-rod, or everyone would avoid eating at restaurants and only cook for themselves, IF ONLY they owned more cookbooks. Are we really to believe that if everyone just converted to Linux, somehow the masses would be better computer-educated and would never again need their nerdy relatives to help them? In your utopian dreams.

The fact is, the vast majority of people DON'T HAVE THE TIME, much less the desire to make the time to delve into the depths of their computer. And they have EVEN LESS INCENTIVE to make the time to try out a new operating system, at which point they have to make EVEN MORE time to "test out every possible alternative app in each category until they find the one they like best" (paraphrased).

The fact that most users use Windows and proprietary software, and the fact that they do not explore their system, is hardly cause and effect. Rather, the cause and effect is happening on the part of the minority of users who DO have the time/motivation to delve into their systems, as they are the ones who are more likely to give Linux and free software applications a spin.

I know plenty of people who are computer enthusiasts and know their way in and out of every nook and cranny of Windows like the back of their hand. This kind of exploratory behavior has very little to do with whether you use Linux or Windows. Either you're motivated or you're not, that's the deciding factor.

Bringing Linux to the masses may indeed encourage people over the long term (read: the next generation of children) to look at code and contribute to software projects. It may also (hopefully) contribute to a world devoid of proprietary file formats that require a tax every other year to view. It may even lead to a world where all software, even the most powerful, is available to everyone cost-free. But will it encourage every single user to know their computer inside and out? Doubtful.

Open source user
by miles (1.44) on Mon 14th Jan 2008 15:51 UTC
miles
Member since:
2006-06-15
Fans: 0

If you love open source, then stop fixing closed source programs.
Even for your friends, or your family.

They can understand really well that since you don't use their OS or their programs, you won't be