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yeah, well it took them THREE releases to get it right. yeesh, can't even get it right the first time. tsk, tsk.

Attempting to confirm - hmm, does anyone know an unknown bug I can test to see if it's really been fixed? I can't seem to think of any right now...

LOL...Me neither.

Will there be a major revamp, sort of like KDE is having its major 4.0 release, what about Gnome?

Dream on...

They just told you it's perfect, why do you want a revamp?

If it would be as messy as the kde4 effort has been, then I sincerely hope not. I really don't think that Gnome needs such a rewrite to get the features that a desktop needs.

> a rewrite

to be straight on the matter, it's hardly been a rewrite.

Exactly.
KDE just don,t get it.
Why add bloat and complexity to a file manager just so a user can choose between copying and moving a file, especially when you can just open another app that can do just that?
Everyone is just so fortunate that the developers realise that anything other than brown,grey & beige look totally unprofessional and therefore decided to protect users from theirselves by outlawing all offending colours.
Printers are so smart these days there is no need to tell them how to do their job.
Then theres the icing on the cake. Gconf, a product of the gnome usability guidelines that makes it easy for anyone to rebel against the party line and customise ANYTHING they can think of.
This fantastic foresight of the developers combined with great gnome apps such as Firefox and Nautilus (?) have resulted in the best OS on the planet for casual emailing and web browsing. No other OS on the planet caters to their target audience as well as gnome.
Why would anyone want to use KDE? KDE4 is full of bugs and the beta has already been released. If they could get rid of ALL bugs like gnome has done and had apps like Nautilus that NEVER EVER crashed, perhaps I could understand why two thirds of Linux users used it. If only they knew what was best for them.

Hmmm try to boot in init level 3, then start Gnome, see if it still complains about DBUS issues, screen saver works, etc. Oh and please check whether USB keys are mounted and fully readable/writeable as if you started with init 5 and GDM.

Please... will you?

Thanks!

Errm how is you not having hal and dbus enabled in runlevel 3 considered a bug?

I know I know

It's an 'Error 40' - the error resides 40 centimetres from the monitor

Solution: Replace user

That should be independent of the runlevel really. In fact, there is a bug against GDM I believe describing just that.

It's just that its considered to be a safe practice in some circles to start with runlevel 3 and start whatever graphical desktop manager / environment user wants.

I'd obviously like that to work.

Well, I knew of an unknown bug once, but then it wasn't.

I dunno about unknown bugs, but I can give you advance notice of all unplanned outages. :-)

No, it's the next step in evolution!

Does anyone know why it was chosen to be the GNOME trademark?

Printer ink level monitoring works fine for me - because its the printer drivers that provide the information/UI not the desktop environment. I can easily tell how much ink is in my network attached Brother 560CN, thanks to their most excellent linux support.

Agreed formatting needs love, I seem to remember a planet gnome post about bringing the floppy-format tool into the 21st century, not sure what happened with that. Gnome Parted (gParted) can do formatting, though it's hardly the ideal tool to use for simple removable media.

As for pixel precise icon placement, doesn't bother me, Nautilus handles all the crap I save to the desktop just fine

There is still no easy, graphical way to format removable USB and firewire drives under both GNOME and KDE! You should just be able to right-click on the discs icon then choose 'Format'. I think HAL needs some new functionality for this

Atleast that one doesn't seem very difficult. I might whip up a simple GUI for such later on today, just for the heck of it It's not a very common need and it could cause serious damage (ie. unknowledgeable user could potentially delete all of his/her files on the media) but that could be alleviated by giving clear warning to the user before applying any changes..

"GNOME is (about) a decade old now but is still missing simple desktop functionality that was present in Win95. Some of the biggest missing features are [...]

PIXEL PRECISE DESKTOP ICON PLACEMENT"

The more I think of it now, the more upset I get. Why have they kept PIXEL PRECISE DESKTOP ICON PLACEMENT away from us for this long? Don't they want Linux to succeed? Do they want people to run Windows 95 instead?

Their failure to deliver PIXEL PRECISE DESKTOP ICON PLACEMENT is not only an insult to the PIXELs making up the DESKTOP ICONs, it is also a serious usability issue, because you have absolutely no control where your ICONs are PLACEd.

This is PRECISEly why 2007 wasn't the year of Linux Desktop -- we had no PIXEL PRECISE DESKTOP ICON PLACEMENT.

It's funny how they pick one feature on send the whole desktop environment back to WIN95 days. I'll ignore the win95 icons in Wordpad and the font installer in Vista then.

Perhaps MS figured that because this functionality has been working well for so long, they didn't need to fix it. Some of Gnome's missing features have been missing since the beginning (like the aforementioned per pixel icon placement) The two are not even comparable. comparing the functionality of the font installer in Vista (which works just fine, but is ugly) and the entire lack of a proper pixel placement in Gnome and KDE (I am a KDE user, so in this case I am not biased), is comapring apples to oranges.

Well sending GNOME back to win95 days just on one feature is wrong. I mentioned Vista like that because if your going to do a revamp do it proper not half arsed.

Really though, who cares about per pixel icon placement, icon placement on the desktop is so last century and I'd rather setup a panel for my icons.

I thought this was an option in the right -click menu. Something like "don't align" or "Keep aligned". Half of the complaints about gnome are things that are already there but might be hidden or the user hasn't taken the time to actually use the stupid thing. Before you talk about a missing feature that is so obviously there how about doing a google search. It may keep you from looking like a fool. Not that I'm calling you a fool but I'm just saying.

BTW, align to grid/keep aligned is the default in Vista and XP. So you totally lost on that one. I'm sure you figured out how to turn that feature off and its not even as obvious in XP as it is in gnome. Wow talk about taking an L.

Edited 2007-11-29 14:09

Interesting you mention KDE suffers from this, as proper pixel placement works just fine for me in KDE.

Well, Gnome does not lack proper pixel placement. You just have to uncheck an option in the desktop's right-click menu. I'm sure that's also true for KDE.

Just so the gnome people aren't the only ones to correct you. Right Click -> Icons -> (Align To Grid) in kde and your good to go with pixel accurate icon placement.

So really, at least attempt to do something before complaining about it. Its like you haven't even used KDE.

I know sometimes it's hard to tell if people are being sarcastic or not, but for the love of God I hope you were.

By the way, there IS Pixel precise desktop Icon placement. Just turn off the "Keep Aligned" thing. Damn, I don't know when I'd even ever use that feature, I always keep mine aligned, otherwise there would be utter chaos, CHAOS I TELL YOU!

"I know sometimes it's hard to tell if people are being sarcastic or not, but for the love of God I hope you were."

I couldn't be more sarcastic.

I think I could

Actually along these same lines, where a Ink Level indicator should be is within a notification. Because quite frankly, who cares if your ink is full, it's only if the ink is about empty that you want to know.

Anyone who honestly thinks that Windows 95 and Gnome are even in the same league don't really remember Windows 95 very well.

Gnome 1.0 was better than Windows 95 in a lot of respects.

Though honestly, I can't believe that anyone could even compare the two. Even KDE 1.0 was more between Windows 98 and 2000 as far as interface goes. Unfortunately that's one of the reasons for a long time that I couldn't use KDE, too much like Windows which I was trying to get away from! KDE 4 is looking nice though.

Pixel precise placement of icons?

Right-click on desktop, remove tag from 'keep adjusted' - there you are.

"The GNOME print tool needs to let interface with libinklevel, escpd etc. so that users can check printer ink levels without logging in as root and typing esoteric commands. Very common desktop task still not catered for!"

Can you explain "esoteric commands" please? :-)

As far as I know, many inkjet printers provide ink level monitorin using their own panels (on the printer itself) or through the printer driver.

What about laser printers? Do they require a toner measurement plugin + page counter for the desktop?

What about thermo printers? Temperature monitor?

What about dotmatrix printers? Amount of tractor sheets available?

What about daisywheel printers? Meters of carbon ribbon left?

Never mind, I was just joking (for the last three ones).

"There is still no easy, graphical way to format removable USB and firewire drives under both GNOME and KDE! You should just be able to right-click on the discs icon then choose 'Format'. I think HAL needs some new functionality for this"

I would agree if you would talk about KDE or "Windows", but, as far as my own individual observations go, those users who use Gnome do not need such a tool, or maybe they wouldn't use it if it's available. On every Gnome desktop I've ssen in my life, a terminal was present. Most users don't find it any complicated to "fdformat -y /dev/fd0" or "newfs da1", because that's much more faster that clicking around and being bothered with options that are default for the CLI tool anyway.

"OK, so this is just a niggle this one but it does annoy me that icons get snapped to a low-res grid on the desktop instead of staying where you want place them."

I agree here. There should be no such force until you set it to be. For example, a desktop context function like "adjust icons to grid" or "switch grid off / on", along with a dialog to set grid parameters, could be a solution here.

"Any think of any more basic stuff like this?"

Ink inside a USB device is no basic stuff. :-)

I'd say that's rather 'esoteric'. Windows does that better, KDE has the same problem as Gnome does - no easy accessible gui for simply formatting a disk. Telling ppl to resort to the commandline is stupid. Just admit KDE and Gnome lack such tools, period.

If you're comfortable with the console, why even use Gnome? Just use a window manager alone, and you'll be really 1337.

Edited 2007-11-29 21:39

"I'd say that's rather 'esoteric'."

So, in other words: Using a CLI interface is "esoteric", okay, that's your opinion. Can I asume that you find users typing on a keyboard being L33T h4X0R too? :-)

"Just admit KDE and Gnome lack such tools, period."

I could argument using the same structure that "Windows" lacks similar tools and functionalities: Tools that I find in both KDE and Gnome, and even functionalities I find in the simplest window managers. So comparing KDE or Gnome to any "Windows" does not make sense: Gnome is not "Windows", and it will never be, I assume. Furthermore, it does not try to.

If you want to make Gnome more appealing for the newbie and the unexperienced average user, you're completely right, of course. Such formatting tools should be part of the default GUI installation, but they would have to mention more functionalities than the "Windows" equivalent does, for example, just format, apply a file system, which file system, file system parameters etc. - just in order to get a nearly complete GUI frontent to the functionalities the underlying OS already provides with its CLI toolset. So it's just a question how complex this mapping CLI - GUI will get.

But please take into mind that if you make things too easy, they'll cause problems. "I just formatted my hard disk, how can I get my pictures back?" could be a typical statement.

In order to make Linux and UNIX OSes appealing to users with no Linux or UNIX experience, security barriers have been removed step by step. This should be no problem as long as a computer is used by one person only. Things like automatic login without password, automatic mounting of devices without any interaction or authorisation can (!) lead to problems. Removing usability functions from Linux and UNIX desktop systems in order to make a GUI be "just like 'Windows'" isn't a solution, too. But that's just a side note.

I think you get my point, right? most average users get scared of a commandline. That's illogical or even stupid - they apparently think a gui like the MS Registry editor is better than plain text files while in real life, both are really just the same. But that doesn't change the point that not having an easilly accessible gui for formatting a usb stick is stupid.

Sure, most distro's have such tools somewhere, eg in Yast or MCC - but not, as another user pointed out, in the rightmouseclick menu on a thumbdrive. Saying you can do it on the CLI is, like another person already pointed out, just like saying you don't need a gui at all - vi takes care of everything.

I would agree if you would talk about KDE or "Windows", but, as far as my own individual observations go, those users who use Gnome do not need such a tool, or maybe they wouldn't use it if it's available. On every Gnome desktop I've ssen in my life, a terminal was present. Most users don't find it any complicated to "fdformat -y /dev/fd0" or "newfs da1", because that's much more faster that clicking around and being bothered with options...

I'm sorry, but I'm completely lost for words at that paragraph. I really am. I just find this sort of thinking to be brain damaged. Seriously. Why on Earth do you think people are using a desktop and any sort of a GUI in the first place?!

The desktop is a window for a user, no matter how advanced or 'ordinary', to get into the operating system and perform various tasks they want to do. If they can't do certain tasks then the view from that window is severely restricted. End of story. In this area, Gnome, KDE and Unix/Linux desktops in general are just behind OS X and Windows by a long way. Hopefully stuff like HAL, Solid and various other things will improve that, but quite frankly, it's years overdue.

"Why on Earth do you think people are using a desktop and any sort of a GUI in the first place?!"

First, you would have to ask: Which people?

Due to marketing, you could ask furthermore: Who is a certain UI intended to?

"The desktop is a window for a user, no matter how advanced or 'ordinary', to get into the operating system and perform various tasks they want to do."

You stated corretly, "The desktop is a window for a user", not the only one. When GUIs were not an essential part of an OS, users introduced theirselves to OS operations through manuals, in paper form or via the online help system of the OS. In order to do advanced tasks, you had to have advanced knowledge, too.

Today, while marketing defines which OS is successful, no matter if its capabilities justify it, the first impression is a very important element. You may know this from psychology: The first look defines anything after it. Furthermore, computers are supposed to be used by anyone, no matter if any knowledge or capability is present. Here, GUIs are the means of choice, because they claim to be the bridge over this gap.

"If they can't do certain tasks then the view from that window is severely restricted. End of story."

As I mentioned in another reply, such an essential functionality like formatting a drive should be part of the GUI, at least if it's intended to be good mapping CLI - GUI.

I don't want to repeat it here, so please read http://osnews.com/permalink.php?news_id=18981&comment_id=287676

"In this area, Gnome, KDE and Unix/Linux desktops in general are just behind OS X and Windows by a long way."

In other areas, "Windows" is a long way behind UNIX / Linux, it's hard to make comparisons here. But regarding GUI tools, I agree thatt KDE and Gnome need to improve in some (!) areas, while in other concerns they're already better than "Windows". This improvement is especially needed in order to make KDE and Gnome, and so the unterlying Linux / UNIX OS, more applealing to the average or "entry level" user.

There's still the question if it's intended to. Have you ever seen an IBM AS/400 setting that a Joe Q. Sixpack can set up and maintain? Have you ever seen a Jane Sixpack using a tiling window manager? :-)

Why would you need NetworkManager when there's a terminal and ifconfig? Why would you need Rhythmbox when there's a terminal and mpg123?
This is assbackwards reasoning. Good luck having mom inserting a flash drive and figuring out, on her own, that she needs to a) use a terminal and b) use a command that she have no idea how to use.
Having an option in Nautilus to format removable drives would be a really good idea.

"Why would you need NetworkManager when there's a terminal and ifconfig? Why would you need Rhythmbox when there's a terminal and mpg123?"

What will you use when there's no X11 working? Hey, Linux and UNIX is not MICROS~1 where there is only one "true" way of doing things. Here, it's about choice.

"This is assbackwards reasoning. Good luck having mom inserting a flash drive and figuring out, on her own, that she needs to a) use a terminal and b) use a command that she have no idea how to use."

As you may know, mom is not target audience for mpg123 or even NetworkManager.

One advantage of a still CLI capable GUI (Terminal) is that you can send someone a list of commands he can copy into the terminal (using the middle mouse button, you can explain it) instead of describing pictures and procedures.

But, on the other hand, why would mom use Gnome when KDE is better, regarding the functionality in question? And why would mom use Linux when "Windows" is better anyway? :-)

Feel free to read my other replies for a better understanding of what I did say. English is not my native language, so excuse me if it wasn't that clear.

http://osnews.com/permalink.php?news_id=18981&comment_id=287679
http://osnews.com/permalink.php?news_id=18981&comment_id=287676

"Having an option in Nautilus to format removable drives would be a really good idea."

I didn't claim anything else. The formatting function just had to take into mind that there are many possibilites how to format a removable media (just format, apply file system, which file system, which options). Then the complaining starts: Much to complicated, the user should not know. On the other hand, this would limit functionality so you needed to use the CLI if your way is not the standard way provided by the GUI. And remember the accidental element: "I've formatted my CF card, how can I get my ohotos back now?"

I just wanted to say that those who usually prefer Gnome (so KDE and "Windows" users are not mentioned here) are usually smart enough to get those things working on their own that are not mapped onto GUI frontends, such as formatting a disk. And, as I said, this is my very own individual observation. Maybe you know Gnome users of other kinds, I don't claim they don't exist.

Additionally, when there's such a dialog for formatting drives, what about a functionality to handl shared volume archives (concatenation, continuation etc.) when accessing such a special media (for example a tar DVD)? I think this could be useful - from my very own special perspective -, but it would be more complicated to implement. Of course such operations could be mapped onto a GUI frontend, too, but sometimes the "old fashioned way" saves you from trouble.

Finally, I did agree with you and all those who supported the request of a formatting tool in Gnome. It would make things easier and help Gnome to be a competitor in Linux's attempt to be usable by mom. :-)

(By the way, I know a mom, she's over 50, who uses the newfs command from the terminal. Typical sentence "I don't have the time to look through all these menues. I've been a typist for 30 years, so these commands are easier to me." She has a folder with notes next to her computer she sometimes consults if she can't remember a certain command. But as you will agree, this is not a common case, it's very very special.)

I can't believe we having a discussion about CLI v GUI - have I stepped back in time or something?

But in this case there is no choice since there's no GUI way to format removable media. I cant chose between the CLI way and the GUI way.
Trust me, I have no problems with using CLI but that's not the point. The point is that formatting removable media is an increasingly common task and there is no GUI way to do it.

I really wish you could alt-tab between windows while dragging and dropping ... this is great when you have little screen real estate and don't want to fiddle with resizing your windows just for a quick DnD operation.

You can just drag the object to the taskbar, and drop it over the taskbar-item corresponding to the target window. The same trick works in Windows btw.

If you drag onto an entry in the task list, that window will come to the top, so you can then drag onto it. Saves having to use the keyboard and mouse at once.

By why should dragging and dropping cause alt+tab not to work in the first place? I would prefer to do it this way, so I don't have to move down to the taskbar, then back towards my destination. I have no trouble using the mouse and keyboard at the same time, having two hands, lol.

I havent read on futher into this thread, I just feel that I have to respond with what I find is pretty basic, nad that is(I assume GNOME had multiple desktops from the start?) that you cant set "one wallpaper for each desktop". I have found some "3rd party" apps to do this, but a good well-intergrated solution would be alot better.(comparing to spaces in OSX, they where there in the previous version, but it was 3rd party "hack", and in the new version, it all seems very slick and intergrated)(dont know if it is possible to have different wallpapaers for different desktops in osx though...)
Well, it works in KDE, and should work in GNOME to, to me its basic functionality, if you have had the multiple desktops for 10 years...

"[...] set "one wallpaper for each desktop". I have found some "3rd party" apps to do this, but a good well-intergrated solution would be alot better. [...] Well, it works in KDE, and should work in GNOME to, to me its basic functionality, if you have had the multiple desktops for 10 years..."

Even CDE had this functionality, and CDE is much older. :-)

I've seen the desktop wallpaper to be a useful means of distinction, but it only works as long as you don't run one maximized application per desktop.

I happen to love that about the Gnome UI. It's a well known and recommended guideline in UI design they're following, you know. It says that functionality should be so obvious that no tweaking is necessary, and therefore tweaking capability would naturally be kept to an absolute minimum. It's for users who want software (and stuff) that just works, not to play with 1 billion options.

this reminds me of one of my favourite Eintstein quotes: "make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler." your comment hits the first part of the quote, but it's missing the second part. either half on its own is not useful.

Indeed. And as far as I can tell, the lack of features in Gnome is not because they don't want the features, but because they lack the manpower to implement them properly and in an usable manner - and they prefer not to have them over having them unusable. Imho the lazy approach to usability. KDE does things the other way around, and is also trying harder (imho) to implement them properly.

Just look at older release announcements. Gnome is just 2 to 4 years behind on features, but they DO come eventually. Lack of manpower, simple.