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Yes, but the point was it was a joke and that you took it seriously ...

I speculate that what Ian has in mind for Solaris is standardizing on the "Linux" userland (including the GNU toolchain) and implementing the Linux system call interface. Essentially, make everything like a Linux distribution except for the kernel. A Linux-compatible distribution featuring a kernel with enterprise-class stability and functionality, including DTrace, Containers, and ZFS. I would not at all be surprised if Ubuntu winds up involved in some way, shape, or form.

If Sun wants to close the gap between Linux and Solaris, this the best way to leverage all of the development that happens on Linux. Phase 1: open the kernel. Phase 2: support the de-facto standard free software development environment. Phase 3: gain mindshare. And that's the ballgame.

If they succeed in marrying the strengths of Solaris with the strengths of Linux, this could really be something. I've been a naysayer about OpenSolaris and it's plan to compete head-to-head with Linux, but I've changed my mind... sort of. I think that the competition between Linux and Solaris will be fierce, and with Red Hat, Novell, and IBM duking it out with Sun, things should get really interesting no matter which free software kernel you prefer.

Well, I think its about time that Linux had some real competition. This can only be good for users as this might force the linux devs to do things they wouldn't normally in-order to offer the same level of functionality. The Linux kernel is great, but there can always be improvements.

I think the Linux world needs someone who won't release until it's *done*. Not that I'm likely to use it myself, but I can see distinct benefits to that philosophy.

I mean, maybe they could have feature freezes more often and thus release more frequently, but there would come a point where too much would be added as soon as the release happened and it was OK to move things to a 'to-be-stable' tree...

"The real funny thing is that Debian became too enveloped in process and politics, and grew the inability to make big decissions during Murdocks leadership."

This statement seems to be revising history at bit...I thought Ian left as the "leader guy" ten years ago? Maybe I'm missing something, I haven't followed Debian that closely.

Not true. The problem with Debian is that it takes a really strong leader to drive the project, and Ian Murdock was the greatest leader the project ever had. Recent DPLs have been limp noodles. They don't rise the occasion, they don't see the big picture, and they don't motivate the development community.

I'm not sure whether it was the democratic process that was flawed or there truly was a lack of strong leaders with an interest in leading the project. Whichever it was before, it's now the latter. Debian can be rescued, but the kind of person that could make it happen is not likely to accept the challenge--or be accepted by the development community. Mark Shuttleworth put out feelers. He asked the Debian community whether they wanted a strong leader to whip the project back into shape. They told him they liked things the way they are. So he started Ubuntu.

I'd like to quote what Debian developer Martin Michlmayr wrote in his blog a year ago, just before the 2006 DPL elections:
'There's a reason we have had "weak" leaders since Bruce [Perens]. While now a large number of people think that Bruce was the best thing since sliced bread, lots of people were really pissed off back then with him commanding people around. And what was the result? A constitution that would ensure that no leader would ever have such power again. And that's what we're currently stuck with.'
http://www.cyrius.com/journal/2006/03/09
http://www.debian.org/devel/constitution#5

So maybe he was a wise guy leaving Debian behind. But instead of learning something, they do the same mistake again and again.
But to be true you cannot compare the beginning of Debian with the current state.

will solaris be using dpkg and apt now? That would be nice

I doubt it. I think the package format Solaris uses is part of the UNIX standard.

However, someone could always add support for that format to dpkg

Edited 2007-03-19 22:36

Why would you need dpkg when you already have pkg-get from Blastwave?.

Why would you need dpkg when you already have pkg-get from Blastwave?

Since you ask, I'm guessing you have not used either apt or pkg-get for very long. Don't get me wrong...I love and use blastwave.org every day. It's made life as a Solaris administrator much better. But the difference in usability and functionality between Debian's package management and the combination of Sun's decrepit pkgadd + blastwave.org's pkg-get is like night and day.

Even if pkgadd was updated to dpkg/rpm levels of functionality and pkg-get was a feature-complete clone of apt-get, you would still have the issue that blastwave.org does not fully integrate with Solaris fully since it installs its own versions of common libraries (gtk, gnome, ssl, etc.). It does this for a couple reasons. One reason is to maintain compatibility across the versions of Solaris that blastwave.org supports. Obviously, since Debian is a full OS it does not have that problem; it updates its software based on distribution release. The second reason is that Sun's own shipped versions of standard libraries and supporting utilities are so painfully old. Blastwave.org cannot possibly hope to work with these old libraries and maintain newer versions of software.

Give both a real shot and you'll see why, despite blastwave.org's valuable contribution to Solaris, lots of people are very excited about today's news and hopeful that it means an improvement in Sun's package management and support of common open source software.

Edited 2007-03-20 00:07

between two evils I'd rather take RPM since many more packages are under RPM than dpkg.

...and support of common open source software.

SUN supports a lot of "common" open source software just fine. However, a lot of open source software doesn't support Solaris. That isn't Sun's fault, but developers who have adopted Linuxisms instead of sticking to POSIX, UNIX, etc. standards.

Nah, Debian is all but dead. Too much politics, way too slow a release cycle, only guys using it on servers will stick with it. Others will migrate to more user friendly, up to date distributions. That's my honest take. It'll be sad to see Debian go, but in reality, they're their own worst enemy in many ways. Dinosaurs were nice as well, but they grew extinct cos they couldn't compete. The same is happening (sadly) to Debian now.

Dave

IM said himself that the democratisation thing happened after he left. So your appraisal is a bit of an exaggeration.

Some other things Debian that ideally are very good, such as the "release when it's ready" approach, don't work in actual life.
Humans are like that.
A lot of people need deadlines to get going, and part of the fun of having a release schedule for a Linux distribution is expecting it, working your way towards rc1, testing, and encouraging yourself and the other lazy people around you to get those bugs fixed in time.

Sure, that's not the ideal situation, because if you don't make the deadline, you look like a fool, and have to postpone it, or deliver buggy software; people will make fun of it. And sometimes things happen that don't fit the common schedules, so you may end up with a half-baked release if you don't all suddenly work a lot harder.
But that's part of the game, and with all its flaws, such a system works better than Debian's. Not because it is better, but because it fits human nature a bit better.

So, maybe Debian needs a yearly.. D-Day.

h3rman: IM said himself that the democratisation thing happened after he left. So your appraisal is a bit of an exaggeration.[/i]

Yes, you are right. But I would like to point out that I never said Murdock himself started the "democratisation". I just think that Debian is what it is because of its focus on democracy, ideals and due process and not because it was founded by Ian Murdock.

Some other things Debian that ideally are very good, such as the "release when it's ready" approach, don't work in actual life.
Humans are like that.
A lot of people need deadlines to get going, and part of the fun of having a release schedule for a Linux distribution is expecting it, working your way towards rc1, testing, and encouraging yourself and the other lazy people around you to get those bugs fixed in time.

Yes again, that's my point. It may be that Debian's program is not very workable under a point of view that works under different set of assumptions, but the Debian program still brought Debian to where it is today. And nobody can argue that Debian is an influential, perhaps even indispensable part of the FOSS movement. While other distributions may outperform Debian under certain benchmarks today, and maybe always and forever will, we can't argue that Debian according to other benchmarks is very successful if not leader of the pack. This has made Debian to the foundation many other distributions rely on. Debian has its own way of doing things and I argue that this is exactly the reason why that's the case. Debian is not fancy or fast, it is reliable, steady and free and I personally find this refreshingly different.

EDIT: fixed tags

Edited 2007-03-20 00:26

Faith is the death of open-source, try reasoning. Maybe Linux matured somewhat, but most of it's true believers didn't make the switch from juvenile to adult.

>I'm in awe of Ian Murdocks ignorance.

People who live in reality call this mature.

Simon Phipps goes and hires a Linux fan boy to make decisions (technical ones) that basically will no doubt make Solaris a second class citizen again.

Sorry, I didn't see where it said Simon hired him. I'm pretty certain lots of people or a different person than Simon made that decision. At this point, I think it's rather silly to say it was a good or bad one. Let's wait and judge him by his actions at Sun, shall we?

"So it's not exactly rocket science to figure that a lot of folks might like an Ubuntu user land merged with a Sun base."

hmm reminds me of nexenta: www.gnusolaris.org
aren't they trying to do exactly the same?!

cheerZ
dean