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A lot of IT shops stay with old software for one reason: custom applications. It can often be difficult and very costly to migrate even from an old version of Windows to a new one. If you have a custom system supporting thousands of users that was created 10-15 years ago, creating entirely new tools can be as economical as migrating everything to current technology. Since either option can be expensive in terms of time and resources, an entity with limited resources such as a city government or an unvalued government branch isn't likely to move quickly to a newer system without a cost-saving plan regardless of what MS supports.

After reading the two articles Notparker linked, I can see why the city of Munich went with Linux over Microsoft. As was pointed out, it may be paying more initially, but over the long run they expect to be paying less and will be able to configure the desktops the way they are needed, not the way Microsoft specifies.

I have worked for several companies, both as an IT employee and not, and for the most part every Windows installation for non-programmers was set up the same. Not all of the MS Office applications were utilized by each person but they were still paid for and installed.

The city of Munich is setting a precedent which the IT world will be watching. Desktop configuration, OS updates, support, training, etc. will all be interesting to see in the coming months and years.

"""After reading the two articles Notparker linked, I can see why the city of Munich went with Linux over Microsoft. As was pointed out, it may be paying more initially, but over the long run they expect to be paying less and will be able to configure the desktops the way they are needed, not the way Microsoft specifies."""

To a great extent, Microsoft's business model depends upon there being a large number of people who don't think past the short term.

Those who think long term slip right through MS's net.

Let's hope that Munich's example makes it easier for other municipalities to see further down their own roads.

These kinds of migrations are never easy, but do result in tools and techniques that make it easier for the next fellow.

I was thinking much the same thing.

I have heard many people make comments to the effect that Linux has lost momentum, but I think that the reality has been that Linux (and Apple to some degree) have spurred competitive action from Microsoft. Microsoft has always had to compete with their own success, but now they are competing with the success of outside competitors. The resulting actions from Microsoft may have given the appearance that Linux and Apple have slowed down, but I think the competitive landscape will only get more fierce.

As initiatives like this one continue, open source tools will become more mature, and migrations away from a monopolized market with increase. I don't think Microsoft will become marginalized, but I do think that they will be force to become and remain more competitive as migrations and tools become cheaper and better. The result will be better Linux as well as a better Microsoft products for everyone.

And you excluded additional software price, like antiviruses, compression programs, malware killers etc.

"And you excluded additional software price, like antiviruses, compression programs, malware killers etc."

What price they're FREE! and you have the source code for them too.

Yeah definately, Munix sounds cool.

Yeah definately, Munix sounds cool.

I agree, but it would probably take a long time to install

PS. I thought SuSE won the Munich contract for 35.7 million?http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/technology/2003-07-13-micr...

What am I missing?

PS. I thought SuSE won the Munich contract for 35.7 million?

No, SuSE and IBM did the viability study, presented some possible solutions and one of them got accepted.

The actual migration contract had a separate call for tenders and a group of small companies form Germany won that one.

I agree, Munix would have been better, but Munich is München in German.

I wish I could up your score more - this is the most sense I have ever heard talked about regarding Linux on this site.

But note: "...a major part of the effort needed is in user training."

In other words, you can still be doing very intelligent things with Linux, do not have to be therefore simply "a no-cost pseudo-replacement for Windows" as elsewhere says, but you stil have to think hard about making the user friendly with Linux.

Und fuer unsere deutsche Leser - viel Glueck dabei: diese verdammt kluge Loesung haette nur in Deutschland vorkommen koennen!

Edited 2006-10-22 07:37

Hey, that damn smart solution has been made in other countries too

Sure - I am just trying to keep the encouragement up in this case (being rhetorical has always been my weak point...;-)

You're probably being modded down for being lame as well as offensive.

Reposting is extremely offensive (as I told you yesterday), and it is lame or perhaps right out stupid to interprete the stats the way you do. I've told you that as well yesterday (and the day before that, and the day before that day as well).

You are only looking at the short-term costs, and completely forgets all about long-term costs. To pragmatic people that would most likely be considered either off-topic or downright offensive.

Costs for upgrading software, costs for upgrading hardware, costs for support in relation to software failure (I've seen many of those with Windows Exchange Server+Access - takes a lot of time and Microsoft needs to be consulted everytime due to it being closed source. Very expensive).

The list is much longer, but you ought to understand the meaning of long-term costs.

You are only looking at the short-term costs, and completely forgets all about long-term costs. To pragmatic people that would most likely be considered either off-topic or downright offensive.

Those 'short term' costs can be the difference between life and death for many small to medium sized businesses.

The city of Munich is not such a small or medium sized business.

Besides that, a small or medium sized business would just use a gratis linux distribution or perhaps one of the BSD's.

Considering your posts so far that statement means nothing to me.

I will however grant you that some OSS-fanbois are quite sensitive, but the same goes for the opposite part.

"""It's the OSS fundies that are being over-sensitive again..."""

As a Linux advocate who is critical of the FSF fundamentalists, I would, in most cases, agree with you.

However, as was pointed out previously, a large percentage of NotParker's posts are not intended in a constructive way.

He is a persistent troll. Until he demonstrates that he is genuinely interested in open discussion, I think that voting down his off-topic posts as "off-topic" is reasonable.

Edited 2006-10-22 04:24

"a large percentage of NotParker's posts are not intended in a constructive way."

He's like the MS version of Moulinneuf.

Based upon this post, your license to use the English language has been revoked for a period of on year.

Woot O_o

Please elaborate

Oh, btw. You mean "Based upon that post", right?

I told you so. Reposting is offensive. Manipulating stats are offensive. Anti-MS fanboys and pragmatic people are going to punish that even though you do point out some interesting elements. I don't repost when I'm being modded down by you and your gang - or when I'm being modded down by Gnome/KDE/BSD-fanbois.

---

Choosing Windows would result in much higher long-term costs for Munich than choosing Linux or one of the BSD's. That's why they chose Linux. And add to that the limited time scope of Microsoft's support.

Posting a link to a 3 year old article doesn't do much good.

I'm not the one posting you down for the links you are posting.

The 12 mio. $ are peanuts in the long term. You'd know that, had you ever studied a budget for a county with a multimillion population.

You keep look at short term costs, instead of short term cost AND long term costs.

I'm not posting any referencens, because all I'm doing is pointing out that you need to count in the long term costs. There should be no need for me to reference to evidence of such long term costs. You learn about it at college (or whatever you have where you live).

Why do you think you're more clever than the city of Munich? They've calculated this whole thing, and they've even stopped it for a short period of time due to patent issues that might arise in the future. They've carried on and they're now ready.

Believe me, a big city in Germany does not choose Linux, because of any political issues. They've chosen it because in the long term it is financially much more attractive than Microsoft's offer for them. That's all there is to say about this issue.

Some other smaller cities have decided to go with Microsoft. Does anyone care about it? Certainly not. You only hear about Munich and Vienna because they _dare_ to take a different turn.

Edited 2006-10-22 09:46

"Why do you think you're more clever than the city of Munich? They've calculated this whole thing, and they've even stopped it for a short period of time due to patent issues that might arise in the future. They've carried on and they're now ready. "

So because he points at something most linux fanboys miss out on he's saying he's smarter then others?

"Believe me, a big city in Germany does not choose Linux, because of any political issues. They've chosen it because in the long term it is financially much more attractive than Microsoft's offer for them. That's all there is to say about this issue. "

Only time will tell if it is cheaper.

"Some other smaller cities have decided to go with Microsoft. Does anyone care about it? Certainly not. You only hear about Munich and Vienna because they _dare_ to take a different turn. "

First you claim that they don't do it for politics and then you say they do... you gotta make up your mind.
Your idea about why we only hear about Vienna and Munich made me smile... We dont' hear about others cities that select a OS with a not so loud bunch of fans that use it for hyping their system even more. But thats just my take on the situation...

Edited 2006-10-22 11:43

>> "Some other smaller cities have decided to go with Microsoft. Does anyone care about it? Certainly not. You only hear about Munich and Vienna because they _dare_ to take a different turn. "

> First you claim that they don't do it for politics and then you say they do... you gotta make up your mind.

Where did anyone say that "dare to take a different turn" has anything to do with politics here?

The city of Munich doesn't have anything to do with "Linux fanboys" - wake up.

I said they took a different turn - that doesn't have anything to do with politics. They are insterested in what benefits their cities most - in these cases it's Linux. So what?

Every time a community or city dares to take something else than Microsoft - it's wrong, stupid etc. Why? Can't these people decide themselves what's best? Do they need the "support" of Redmond's fanboys? Certainly not.

For cities like Munich it is not important at all whether it's Microsoft, Linux, Solaris, Gameboy, Xbox or Humptydumpty OS etc. They have certain things they need to do in a certain time. And they need an OS to achieve that.

In the past there wasn't any discussion about that. It was MS. Period. Now they are able to select - and that is good. It's competition, my friend - and yes, sometimes Linux is going to win that competition.

Well, it has taken the city of Munich a long time to get this project going.

There's a lot of conveying points through arguments, and a few examples of playing the "troll" card. However, playing the "troll" card does not automatically make one a troll. In that regard you're clearly wrong.

Only if one pulls the "troll" card no matter what is written, do we have a troll.

But you cannot avoid people playing the "troll" card when certain persons violate net etiquette.

Too bad most information on LiMux is in German. It hurts my mind by bringing back school bench memories

There's a lot of conveying points through arguments, and a few examples of playing the "troll" card. However, playing the "troll" card does not automatically make one a troll. In that regard you're clearly wrong.

Only if one pulls the "troll" card no matter what is written, do we have a troll.

But you cannot avoid people playing the "troll" card when certain persons violate net etiquette.

Like constantly accusing someone of being a troll for posting polite, factually referenced articles that are relevant?

well dylanmrjones, you are the troll.

I'm not calling you a troll in this thread. And I'm not modding you down for the links you are posting.

You are not polite, you could be considered to be off-topic (though I think you have certain interesting points), you are constantly posting outdated Microsoft commercials (which is most annoying), and constantly misinterpreting stats (most annoying as well).

I agree that some people are a tad sensitive and mods you down too quickly, but if you want to avoid it you should take my advise.

Can we stop the discussion on the moderation? If you have complaints about moderation, keep them to yourself, or email them to us. They are off topic and do not contribute to the discussion.

Thank you.